Which perspectives are welcome here?

[deleted106747]

Not only that, Aziz is clearly progressive, politically. If you’ve deviated so far left that people that share your ideology become the enemy....

Are you saying that one must always agree or support with those who share their ideology?

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[deleted106747]

They are. But that doesn’t make all of them correct.

I don't think of this as a question of correct or incorrect. It's more a matter of perspectives and discussion, and change if necessary. We've got different lenses. I think it might benefit some of the posters to be more aware of their tone and the reasons why certain tones may be used in what contexts.

 

[WisNeuro]

Just a quick point of clarification. The thread is starting to....broaden quite a bit. Some posts are specifically about tone/perceptions/inclusiveness of this particular board. The majority of posts are now about broad issues. It's all good and fine, but we all know what happens with posts that become more broadly sociopolitical, they go to the SPF. And, we all know what happens there, the kids get involved and start ****ting in the sandbox and smearing feces over everything.

 

[GradStudent2020]

Did he?

How would I know?

 

[GradStudent2020]

D


Exactly.

My point is that particular narrative is an exceptionally ridiculous one to minimize as a “bad date.”

 

[Sanman]

As far as how that coercion went, how well do you understand power dynamics? A famous man physically pursuing a fan after they’ve been asked to slow down? After they’ve physically moved away multiple times?

Again, I don’t think it’s useful to pick apart a specific story. Neither of us were there.

Definition of coerce

transitive verb
1: to compel to an act or choice

If you don't want to pick it apart, that is fine and I won't force anyone to engage in conversation with me. However, I do think that discussing the fine points such a case can be helpful in understanding different perspectives. I understand power dynamics. However, I don't agree that one's actions should always be judged on their status. For example, would this behavior be acceptable if he was not famous and these were two unknown people? If it would be, I don't think there should be a different set of rules for famous people than others. He may be more awkward and less able to read social signals than someone who is more comfortable in that setting. Does that mean we are requiring anyone that engages in physical intimacy or dating to have a certain level of social sophistication that may not be universal.? Again, this about conversation, not right and wrong. Forcing someone to be with or against "women" based on their take on a single issue is simplistic and shuts down conversation.

 

[cara susanna]

If you don't want to pick it apart, that is fine and I won't force anyone to engage in conversation with me. However, I do think that discussing the fine points such a case can be helpful in understanding different perspectives. I understand power dynamics. However, I don't agree that one's actions should always be judged on their status. For example, would this behavior be acceptable if he was not famous and these were two unknown people? If it would be, I don't think there should be a different set of rules for famous people than others. He may be more awkward and less able to read social signals than someone who is more comfortable in that setting. Does that mean we are requiring anyone that engages in physical intimacy or dating to have a certain level of social sophistication that may not be universal.? Again, this about conversation, not right and wrong. Forcing someone to be with or against "women" based on their take on a single issue is simplistic and shuts down conversation.

It would not be. That's the point of the story. That men sometimes engage in behavior that they think is fine, and maybe even society thinks is fine, but is still harmful to women.

People who are writing this off as "a bad date" are missing the point.

 

[Sanman]

It would not be. That's the point of the story. That men sometimes engage in behavior that they think is fine, and maybe even society thinks is fine, but is still harmful to women.

People who are writing this off as "a bad date" are missing the point.

In your opinion, what is the point?

EDIT: I misread your response. If you think the point is that some behaviors that some people think are fine maybe harmful to women. I won't disagree that it may have been.. However, many things that many people do hurt others and I do disagree that hurting someone else automatically makes your behavior improper. If I ask a woman out and she rejects me, that can be harmful to my emotional health. Should she apologize for that? I do think the situation was poorly handled on both parts, I don't think it was sexual coercion or harassment. The U.S. does a poor job of teaching people how to communicate about romance and sexuality. The result of that is poor communication and hurt feelings. I don't see this situation as one where there was negative intent on the part of Ansari. Blaming someone for their behavior rather than discussing it and using it as a teaching moment is missing the point, in my opinion.

 

[deleted480308]

I cited an example from my experience in an earlier post. Anyone who wants to can find it.

Cited with a link?

 

[Sanman]

My point is that particular narrative is an exceptionally ridiculous one to minimize as a “bad date.”

Yet, I'm not the only one to criticize it and it is far from ridiculous. Here is a rundown of both sides of it:

How the Aziz Ansari story deepened a crucial divide in the #MeToo reckoning

 

[deleted106747]

Cited with a link?

Nope. Y'all know how to research, if you're that interested.

 

[deleted480308]

Nope. Y'all know how to research, if you're that interested.

Ah, so your game is to state that something happened in written form in a public forum and when people ask to go see this horrible treatment you resort to “if you cared you could find it alone”?

I’m calling BS on your tactic, it’s lazy discussion. Show us this incredibly consistent repetitive problem please, if you can find even a few situations of a woman being treated poorly for being a woman here I will join you in saying there needs to be a major emphasis put on changing that.

 

[deleted106747]

Ah, so your game is to state that something happened in written form in a public forum and when people ask to go see this horrible treatment you resort to “if you cared you could find it alone”?

I’m calling BS on your tactic, it’s lazy discussion. Show us this incredibly consistent repetitive problem please, if you can find even a few situations of a woman being treated poorly for being a woman here I will join you in saying there needs to be a major emphasis put on changing that.

I said the topic of the conversation, so whatever, you can look it up or not, don't care.

 

[WisNeuro]

 

[deleted480308]

I said the topic of the conversation, so whatever, you can look it up or not, don't care.

I dealt with you in good faith, your lack of return is disappointing

 

[deleted106747]

I dealt with you in good faith, your lack of return is disappointing

No you absolutely did not deal with me in good faith.
You misquoted me in a sarcastic manner: "Show us this incredibly consistent repetitive problem please, if you can find even a few situations of a woman being treated poorly for being a woman here..."
I never said "incredibly consistent repetitive pattern" - I described my experience and discussed that reported by others. Don't amplify and change the content of I wrote to suit your point of view & to make mine seem foolish, thank you very much.
Also, "even a few situations" - sounds like you already have your mind made up. So I don't care if you read the post I cited. More than likely, you'll read it and find reasons it isn't how I interpreted it, since you've already decided in advance how you feel. It's a waste of my time.

 

[deleted480308]

No you absolutely did not deal with me in good faith.
You misquoted me in a sarcastic manner: "Show us this incredibly consistent repetitive problem please, if you can find even a few situations of a woman being treated poorly for being a woman here..."
I never said "incredibly consistent repetitive pattern" - I described my experience and discussed that reported by others. Don't amplify and change the content of I wrote to suit your point of view & to make mine seem foolish, thank you very much.
Also, "even a few situations" - sounds like you already have your mind made up. So I don't care if you read the post I cited. More than likely, you'll read it and find reasons it isn't how I interpreted it, since you've already decided in advance how you feel. It's a waste of my time.

I absolutely asked in good faith (see below)

Can you link to some instances of different genders saying the same thing and being treated differently here so we can see what you are talking about?

then you lied about citing an example (see below)

I cited an example from my experience in an earlier post. Anyone who wants to can find it.

Then when I asked again for a link, you told me I could find it myself because you were not interested in actually substantiating your claim. That is frustrating as it’s an untrustworthy tactic to recite things that would be easily provable as fact and then refuse to provide the source.

The only thing my mind is made up on now is that I am somewhat forced to doubt claims you make unless you provide proof and am doubtful you will offer proof even if you have it

 

[deleted106747]

I absolutely asked in good faith (see below)
then you lied about citing an example (see below)


Then when I asked again for a link, you told me I could find it myself because you were not interested in actually substantiating your claim. That is frustrating as it’s an untrustworthy tactic to recite things that would be easily provable as fact and then refuse to provide the source.

The only thing my mind is made up on now is that I am somewhat forced to doubt claims you make unless you provide proof and am doubtful you will offer proof even if you have it

Again, I don't care what your mind is or isn't made up about, but don't call me a liar. if you're that interested, look at my post where I specifically named a post where this dynamic occurred. If you're not going to do that, whatever. This is a stupid back and forth, I'm done with it. Do whatever you want.

 

[McMurphy]

Can you link to some instances of different genders saying the same thing and being treated differently here so we can see what you are talking about?

Kim Elsesser has done a lot of research on gender bias, especially in the workplace.

 

[cara susanna]

In your opinion, what is the point?

EDIT: I misread your response. If you think the point is that some behaviors that some people think are fine maybe harmful to women. I won't disagree that it may have been.. However, many things that many people do hurt others and I do disagree that hurting someone else automatically makes your behavior improper. If I ask a woman out and she rejects me, that can be harmful to my emotional health. Should she apologize for that? I do think the situation was poorly handled on both parts, I don't think it was sexual coercion or harassment. The U.S. does a poor job of teaching people how to communicate about romance and sexuality. The result of that is poor communication and hurt feelings. I don't see this situation as one where there was negative intent on the part of Ansari. Blaming someone for their behavior rather than discussing it and using it as a teaching moment is missing the point, in my opinion.

I think it was attempted sexual coercion. She kept saying no, he'd back off, and then he'd start up again. Do I think it was sexually coercive? Yes, I do. Do I think that Aziz Ansari is a sex offender? No. People are thinking about this so black and white when it's not.

Also, this is why the traditional consent model is terrible and needs to be replaced by affirmative consent.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

Can you link to some instances of different genders saying the same thing and being treated differently here so we can see what you are talking about?

Kim Elsesser has done a lot of research on gender bias, especially in the workplace.

I wonder what the implications of this are for professions that are majority female. Do workplaces filled with (and run by) nurses, social workers and/or psychologists exhibit a clear 'pro-male' and 'anti-female' bias? Even--for the sake of argument--assuming that this is the case, what does a majority-female profession/workplace that exhibits such bias mean? How does this happen? Will such bias decrease and eventually disappear when the %age of females in the profession/workplace finally nears or reaches 100%? Wouldn't females have all 'the power' at that point? At what point would claims of an oppressive patriarchy be nonsensical due to the composition of the workplace (e.g., 90% female with 100% female supervisors)?

 

[Ollie123]

People are thinking about this so black and white when it's not.

 

[deleted480308]

Kim Elsesser has done a lot of research on gender bias, especially in the workplace.

I’m totally with you on that existing in some specific workplaces. I was asking more specifically about the claim of things on this forum, but no one wants to cite it.

 

[McMurphy]

I’m totally with you on that existing in some specific workplaces. I was asking more specifically about the claim of things on this forum, but no one wants to cite it.

My bad, I misread and thought you were responding to her experience in the workplace. Even still, I'm genuinely confused--what type of "citation" are you asking for? Specific posts where someone was mistreated on this forum because of their gender?

 

[GradStudent2020]

That is what she reported, yes. As we don’t have anything to go on but his report and hers, it is very hard to know what the social dynamics of that looked like.

Further, what is the line between socially awkward advances attempted by socially awkward people and something more sinister?

Women are socially awkward too. Are we going to aggressively shame socially awkward behavior?

I know aziz was portrayed as a power figure in that encounter. But, how do we know he felt powerful or in control, or his reads of her cues?

There’s rape and there’s being socially oblivious. Not sure those are on the same continuum.

To take it back to this forum and the OP. Some people are better at communicating than others, better at disarming or processing an issue than other, better able not to get mad, etc. . .

If we are talking about what might be done about tone or should be done about tone, we need to answer a few things.

Is there a tone problem here?

Does it have anything to do with gender?

Should anything be done to address it?

I'd argue sometimes there's a tone problem. It's not just men and I think in psychology, especially, gender may not account for the variance (personality, political affiliation seem more germane to me). And, be excellent to each other, I guess?

Are you suggesting we give a pass on sexual coercion if the perpetrator is “awkward” or doesn’t pick up social cues?

If you want that question to tie back in to the OP, are you suggesting we give a pass on aggressive/toxic behavior on this forum if posters deny responsibility?

(Lots of ways to deny responsibility, feel free to choose your own adventure from: It’s tough love. You don’t get my humor. I act like this in other places and it’s acceptable. Someone else did the same thing but worse. I didn’t realize my behavior was a problem (even when people directly tell me it is a problem), etc.)

 

[deleted480308]

My bad, I misread and thought you were responding to her experience in the workplace. Even still, I'm genuinely confused--what type of "citation" are you asking for? Specific posts where someone was mistreated on this forum because of their gender?

Yes. Because that has been claimed and I would like to see it because I hadn’t yet

 

[GradStudent2020]

No.

Oh, good. Because it definitely seemed you were suggesting maybe it’s ok for someone to pressure another person into a sexual act because they didn’t/couldn’t/were unwilling to consider social cues. Glad that wasn’t what you meant when you said “There’s rape and there’s being socially oblivious.” As if someone socially oblivious can’t also rape someone.

 

[deleted480308]

Are you suggesting we give a pass on sexual coercion if the perpetrator is “awkward” or doesn’t pick up social cues?

If you want that question to tie back in to the OP, are you suggesting we give a pass on aggressive/toxic behavior on this forum if posters deny responsibility?

(Lots of ways to deny responsibility, feel free to choose your own adventure from: It’s tough love. You don’t get my humor. I act like this in other places and it’s acceptable. Someone else did the same thing but worse. I didn’t realize my behavior was a problem (even when people directly tell me it is a problem), etc.)

It’s also important to note a possibility that some accusations of “toxic” behavior can actually be wrong. An accusation doesn’t mean it is true

 

[GradStudent2020]

Seems you’ve added a lot to my statement that wasn’t implied to take greater offense than is warranted.

Does it? Was I offended? Must be my delicate female sensibilities and not your asinine comment where you implied awkwardness is a valid excuse for pressuring someone into sex acts.

 

[GradStudent2020]

It’s also important to note a possibility that some accusations of “toxic” behavior can actually be wrong. An accusation doesn’t mean it is true

Ooh, that’s true. I should have added that to my denial of responsibility choose your own adventure list.

 

[GradStudent2020]

Lol. See, this is where I wonder if you’re serious or just trying to win points by asserting ridiculous things. Certainly if you believe I implied that you’re comprehension of the context is limited.

Are there points?! JFC, I’ve been doing SDN wrong this WHOLE TIME. SMH.

 

[McMurphy]

Yes. Because that has been claimed and I would like to see it because I hadn’t yet

But if you're familiar with the research on gender bias, surely you understand that much of it is done on a subconscious level. If someone had the energy to find a list of posts, it is likely that you or the authors of said posts would say it had nothing to do with gender. That doesn't make it true.

 

[GradStudent2020]

But if you're familiar with the research on gender bias, surely you understand that much of it is done on a subconscious level. If someone had the energy to find a list of posts, it is likely that you or the authors of said posts would say it had nothing to do with gender. That doesn't make it true.

Several posters on this thread have actually taken the time to outline specific interactions and named specific threads where behaviors occurred. Some posters must have missed them?

 

[GradStudent2020]

Lol. See, this is where I wonder if you’re serious or just trying to win points by asserting ridiculous things. Certainly if you believe I implied that you’re comprehension of the context is limited.

I guess that’s another theory for why there’s a “tone” perception problem. Lack of comprehension.

Please do yourself a favor and share your comment about being awkward vs. rape with a woman whose opinion you trust. With context! Someone who you believe has “comprehension” skills. Then, thoughtfully consider any feedback you get on that comment. Good luck!

 

[GradStudent2020]

D


I said they don’t exist on the same continuum. It’s why the aziz thing is separate.

Again, learn to read please. Or, alternatively, don’t trump up nonsense to play Don Quixote against that which isn’t there.

I’ve given you the best advice I can. Please, get some feedback from a woman or women you trust.

 

[GradStudent2020]

Edit: never mind. No point.

Ah, yes. I can see your dilemma. Why type up a response to someone that cannot read and/or cannot comprehend what they read? Which is it, by the way? It’s confusing because I can’t read.

 

[WisNeuro]

Keep up the rage posting people. Need some more entertainment as I cook.

 

[GradStudent2020]

I’ll try once more. If you go back and read my response to Cara you’ll see that I was effectively agreeing with her.

Aziz is not a sex offender (her response). But he was coercive.

Me, I agree. She described sexual coercion.


Me. Rape and this sort of behavior are on different continuums (agreement with cara saying aziz is not a sex offender).

Me. A little pushback. We don’t know what the dynamics of that encounter looked like. People are sometimes poor communicators, both men and women. There’s a lot of grey. (Suggesting it’s possible the woman’s perception of the situation may be inaccurate).

Gradstudent2020: you think rape is ok so long as the guy is socially oblivious.

Thanks so much for the TLDR;

Except..... Aziz agreed that the behavior occurred and being sexually coercive is ABSOLUTELY on the same continuum as rape. I agree that the behavior described probably wasn’t sexual assault. I disagree that it can be excused away by social awkwardness.

 

[GradStudent2020]

Aziz -
“In September of last year, I met a woman at a party. We exchanged numbers. We texted back and forth and eventually went on a date. We went out to dinner, and afterwards we ended up engaging in sexual activity, which by all indications was completely consensual," Ansari wrote in a statement obtained by CNN on Sunday.
"The next day, I got a text from her saying that although 'it may have seemed okay,' upon further reflection, she felt uncomfortable. It was true that everything did seem okay to me, so when I heard that it was not the case for her, I was surprised and concerned," Ansari's statement continued. "I took her words to heart and responded privately after taking the time to process what she had said."

Did he? When. I watched his standup special. Didn’t notice that. Perhaps I missed it?

Perhaps.

 

[deleted480308]

Ooh, that’s true. I should have added that to my denial of responsibility choose your own adventure list.

it’s not denying responsibility if the accusation is false. There literally could be an absence of anything to take responsibility for

But if you're familiar with the research on gender bias, surely you understand that much of it is done on a subconscious level. If someone had the energy to find a list of posts, it is likely that you or the authors of said posts would say it had nothing to do with gender. That doesn't make it true.

which is an interesting scapegoat for not just providing the proof so we can look at it together

Several posters on this thread have actually taken the time to outline specific interactions and named specific threads where behaviors occurred. Some posters must have missed them?

I guess it’s possible that I missed a link to a specific instance despite repeatedly asking for it and repeatedly being told no one owes me a citation. Could you link me to the multiple posts with citations in them?

 

[msgeorgeeliot]

Wow.

Anonymity has its pluses and minuses on this forum. We have talked a bit about the pluses. A very important minus is that it facilitates a “safe space” for people in a dominant position to condescend to those who have less power.

Much like racism and the other -isms: things tend to get ugly when people in power feel safe to really *tell it like it is.*

Speaking of safe spaces, I would like to offer my own ;tldr on how the dominant group* has responded to my OP:

On the one hand, I’m hearing, to put it crudely, “sheesh, grow a pair.” On the other hand, I’m hearing, “why don’t you go create your own safe space where you can talk about your niche thoughts and feelings while exchanging rainbows and hugs?” And on yet a third hand (must not make joke), I’m hearing, “you and your liberal echo chambers are everything that is wrong with America!”

* #notallmen (I’m serious!)

Like @Psycycle , I don’t have the time or f*cks to conduct a content analysis of this forum. Nor will I supply “evidence” on demand when the evidence is right here, right now.

I am so disappointed that the MeToo movement has been twisted beyond recognition in this thread, derailing a discussion that was bending for the good. I think it was in bad faith to juxtapose the movement — albeit rhetorically/innocently! shrug! — with white supremacists and trolls.

MeToo is not a gathering space for hate. The popular misconception is that it’s about bringing men down. In reality, the movement is about centering the needs of survivors of sexual violence *of every gender expression.* Boys and men hurt too; the evidence is overwhelming.

The founder of MeToo, Tarana Burke, has a great MO when it comes to boundaries: “I don’t facilitate bullsh*t.”

Well, me neither. Not anymore.

Have a nice weekend, everyone.

Your colleague,
@msgeorge

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

I think it was attempted sexual coercion. She kept saying no, he'd back off, and then he'd start up again. Do I think it was sexually coercive? Yes, I do. Do I think that Aziz Ansari is a sex offender? No. People are thinking about this so black and white when it's not.

Also, this is why the traditional consent model is terrible and needs to be replaced by affirmative consent.
[/QUOTE

Wow.

Anonymity has its pluses and minuses on this forum. We have talked a bit about the pluses. A very important minus is that it facilitates a “safe space” for people in a dominant position to condescend to those who have less power.

Much like racism and the other -isms: things tend to get ugly when people in power feel safe to really *tell it like it is.*

Speaking of safe spaces, I would like to offer my own ;tldr on how the dominant group* has responded to my OP:

On the one hand, I’m hearing, to put it crudely, “sheesh, grow a pair.” On the other hand, I’m hearing, “why don’t you go create your own safe space where you can talk about your niche thoughts and feelings while exchanging rainbows and hugs?” And on yet a third hand (must not make joke), I’m hearing, “you and your liberal echo chambers are everything that is wrong with America!”

* #notallmen (I’m serious!)

Like @Psycycle , I don’t have the time or f*cks to conduct a content analysis of this forum. Nor will I supply “evidence” on demand when the evidence is right here, right now.

I am so disappointed that the MeToo movement has been twisted beyond recognition in this thread, derailing a discussion that was bending for the good. I think it was in bad faith to juxtapose the movement — albeit rhetorically/innocently! shrug! — with white supremacists and trolls.

MeToo is not a gathering space for hate. The popular misconception is that it’s about bringing men down. In reality, the movement is about centering the needs of survivors of sexual violence *of every gender expression.* Boys and men hurt too; the evidence is overwhelming.

The founder of MeToo, Tarana Burke, has a great MO when it comes to boundaries: “I don’t facilitate bullsh*t.”

Well, me neither. Not anymore.

Have a nice weekend, everyone.

Your colleague,
@msgeorge

Is there a questionnaire I can fill out to determine my 'dominance score' in society based on my gender, sex, sexual orientation, religious status, income level, degree of educational attainment, age, geographical region of birth, marital status, trauma history, military (or veteran) status, pet owner vs. non-pet owner, size of biological family (living relatives), and so on ad infinitum?

Isn't everyone a member of a disadvantaged ('victimized') class on one or several of these types of classification variables? Isn't the same person also a member of a privileged ('oppressor') class on other variables? Should we use these demographic/history variables to give individuals a score on some 'disadvantaged' vs. 'privileged' dimension and weight their expressed opinions based on this score? Or maybe we should establish a cutoff score and just prevent those below a particular score from posting.

When I went into psychology, there was an emphasis on studying and trying to understand people as individuals, not as 'oh yeah, Bob over there is a white, heterosexual, Christian male with a decent job so he's obviously a privileged member of an oppressor class' so his view can be discounted merely on the basis of these demographic characteristics (most of which, by the way, are: (1) not chosen and (2) not modifiable). I mean, I guess Bob could quit his decent job, renounce his religion, and seek out a 'gender affirming' surgical procedure.

I think a lot of the back and forth and, ultimately, strong emotions that are being exhibited in the thread are the result of people having different underlying assumptive frameworks. And, as it looks to me, the 'dominant' assumptive framework in professional psychology in 2019 is not 'masculine' in any respect (literal or figurative). That's part of what makes all of this so fascinating.

I mean, is it as simple as: 'If you're a male psychologist then you're a member of the dominant class?' Really? So a first-year male graduate student in a clinical psych class cohort is 'dominant' over--say--Marsha Linehan who heads up the program?

Picking a single non-modifiable and non-chosen (male/female) demographic characteristic and making it the basis for deciding who is 'privileged' vs. 'victimized' is an inherently divisive assumptive framework. Men (as individuals) are obviously going to object to being arbitrarily labeled in that manner.

 

[deleted480308]

Wow.

Anonymity has its pluses and minuses on this forum. We have talked a bit about the pluses. A very important minus is that it facilitates a “safe space” for people in a dominant position to condescend to those who have less power.

Much like racism and the other -isms: things tend to get ugly when people in power feel safe to really *tell it like it is.*

Speaking of safe spaces, I would like to offer my own ;tldr on how the dominant group* has responded to my OP:

On the one hand, I’m hearing, to put it crudely, “sheesh, grow a pair.” On the other hand, I’m hearing, “why don’t you go create your own safe space where you can talk about your niche thoughts and feelings while exchanging rainbows and hugs?” And on yet a third hand (must not make joke), I’m hearing, “you and your liberal echo chambers are everything that is wrong with America!”

* #notallmen (I’m serious!)

Like @Psycycle , I don’t have the time or f*cks to conduct a content analysis of this forum. Nor will I supply “evidence” on demand when the evidence is right here, right now.

I am so disappointed that the MeToo movement has been twisted beyond recognition in this thread, derailing a discussion that was bending for the good. I think it was in bad faith to juxtapose the movement — albeit rhetorically/innocently! shrug! — with white supremacists and trolls.

MeToo is not a gathering space for hate. The popular misconception is that it’s about bringing men down. In reality, the movement is about centering the needs of survivors of sexual violence *of every gender expression.* Boys and men hurt too; the evidence is overwhelming.

The founder of MeToo, Tarana Burke, has a great MO when it comes to boundaries: “I don’t facilitate bullsh*t.”

Well, me neither. Not anymore.

Have a nice weekend, everyone.

Your colleague,
@msgeorge

How is anyone dominant here? We all have literal equal ability to post at will

And again, I still haven’t seen anyone treating someone poorly because they are a woman. If someone shows it to me, I’ll gladly say they were wrong

 

[Justanothergrad]

Ah here we go, this is the quality level I was expecting.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Ah here we go, this is the quality level I was expecting.

On that note, please keep the conversation professional, or we will close the thread.

 

[BorderlineQueen]

I have no clue how this thread got to 9 pages.

 

[Seven_Costanza]

I have no clue how this thread got to 9 pages.

Cool. Sometimes what may be irrelevant to you is very relevant to others.

 

[Pragma]

I am being as genuine and constructive as I can in writing this post.

Like many of you, I am a licensed psychologist who provides CBT as an expertly trained clinician. I am also unapologetic about my feminist perspective, my passion for social justice issues, and my stubborn optimism that we can actually get some **** done if we waste less time playing “who’s the smartest?” on an anonymous message board.

Cheers! One question - what do you want to get done on this board? Is your purpose to accomplish something with this group of folks on this board?

I am under the impression that, given these traits, I am not especially welcome in the broader culture of this online community. My perception is my responsibility, and I can choose where to spend my time.

I would like to spend some of it here. But I am getting clearer, based on the evidence generated in the last year, that my contributions and questions are more likely than not to evoke dismissiveness, condescending reality checks, and goading to be pedantically precise to earn the right to be addressed with respect.

I am also unapologetic about my feminist perspective, my passion for social justice issues, and my stubborn optimism

I think you will find posters here (men, and non-men) that are general in alignment with you but also don't drink the Kool-Aid that is the dichotomous and totalitarian perspective that is common within social justice movements. Examine your ideology and consider whether it allows for anything but submission to one conclusion. If it is open to other perspectives and flexible about the amount of variance explained for any given interaction, then cool!

I like a lot of things about this space, but I am tired of contorting myself to try to pre-empt intellectual attacks by men who think they’re “good guys” but behave awfully on this forum. As a woman, I get enough practice with this dynamic in day to day life.

Do you expect behavior in the forum to be the same as in day-to-day life? Part of what makes it nice is that it isn't. Maybe you see "male aggression" more because of that? Maybe peoples' assumptions (I've seen you assume that posters were male or female but were wrong more than once) enhance their internet experience? I don't know - but for someone calling out people for being pedantic, you are kind of equally a jerk about some of these discussions in my own eyes. And that's cool with me. I like different perspectives.

At the risk of being put on blast for this request, I would like to ask that male participants wait to respond until at least ten female participants have space to reflect on whatever they feel interested in saying. I am interested in the experiences of other women on this board in particular, and we don’t have to agree. I just want to hear from you first.

It is too bad that people didn't wait, but I personally would have framed the request differently or would have titled the thread differently. But who cares? It is what it is.

 

[WisNeuro]

And, there is a gender component to that, currently, even historically. I think, if you just went by male vote over the last 100 years or so, we'd have never had a democratic president.

I don't think so. I believe that historically, right after Suffrage, Women skewed Republican, and that shift started going the other way in the 60-80 period. And, at least for modern elections, Clinton's first term would still have happened if just men voted. The Ross Perot issue can be debated. Regardless, I'm not a fan of identity politics, so this is something of a moot point, especially with razor thin margins in many elections when talking about voting habits of certain groups (e.g., men's vote for Obama's 1st term being within a percentage point).

 

[Sanman]

Cheers! One question - what do you want to get done on this board? Is your purpose to accomplish something with this group of folks on this board?





I think you will find posters here (men, and non-men) that are general in alignment with you but also don't drink the Kool-Aid that is the dichotomous and totalitarian perspective that is common within social justice movements. Examine your ideology and consider whether it allows for anything but submission to one conclusion. If it is open to other perspectives and flexible about the amount of variance explained for any given interaction, then cool!



Do you expect behavior in the forum to be the same as in day-to-day life? Part of what makes it nice is that it isn't. Maybe you see "male aggression" more because of that? Maybe peoples' assumptions (I've seen you assume that posters were male or female but were wrong more than once) enhance their internet experience? I don't know - but for someone calling out people for being pedantic, you are kind of equally a jerk about some of these discussions in my own eyes. And that's cool with me. I like different perspectives.



It is too bad that people didn't wait, but I personally would have framed the request differently or would have titled the thread differently. But who cares? It is what it is.

I really don't want to get back into the whole metoo vs alt right/white supremacists vs 4 chan argument. However, to add to the gender conversation overall I took the advice here and showed the post I made to my wife (she was wondering what I had been reading on my phone). She read the original posts and the follow-ups, understood my point that all three utilized social media to engage groups of people that otherwise may not have come together, and had no idea why other posters became so upset about it. So, another datapoint for everyone. That said, she is not much of a social justice or feminist movement person, though some of her good friends are. And to those that might be wondering, she has no problem disagreeing with me and getting into it.

That said, I am not sure why the OP is equating agreeing with her points to wanting her to be a part of the community. I might not agree with everything she says, but what a boring place this would be if we all agreed with each other!