Which schools should I apply to?

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Yep. And the advantages aren't vague. Unless he meant to use a better word. The advantages are pretty concrete (teaching for cbse, p/f, high matchrates+matches, no ranks or more lenient rankings, etc)
They are vague because we will never know if the Ivy's attract the type of people who have the intelligence and will to specialize regardless of where they went.

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I don't get all the hate on Ivies on SDN. With living costs factored out, my COA is many degrees lower than most other private schools. It's a no brainer to attend if that is the case. Getting into a state school these day's is like flipping a Dungeon's and Dragons dice
Of course an awesome deal would be to attend an Ivy cheaply. If the difference between Columbia/Penn/Harvard wasn't $100-250K+, I would recommend going there.
 
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They are vague because we will never know if the Ivy's attract the type of people who have the intelligence and will to specialize regardless of where they went.

Except if you took everyone at an Ivy and introduced the traditional ranking system, we can safely say no matter how smart the students only the top 1o-20% would be able to specialize, especially when it comes to specialties such as Orthodontics where rank is heavily considered.

I truly don't believe that the students who attend the Ivy institutions are that different intelligence wise. State schools are filled with people who got great scores but like you decided to save money.

Still if you feel it's absurd to risk 200k for a better chance at specializing that's your right and I will respect it, but you don't need to go on the offensive on every thread where someone disagrees with you.
 
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Except if you took everyone at an Ivy and introduced the traditional ranking system, we can safely say no matter how smart the students only the top 1o-20% would be able to specialize, especially when it comes to specialties such as Orthodontics where rank is heavily considered.

I truly don't believe that the students who attend the Ivy institutions are that different intelligence wise. State schools are filled with people who got great scores but like you decided to save money.

Still if you feel it's absurd to risk 200k for a better chance at specializing that's your right and I will respect it, but you don't need to go on the offensive on every thread where someone disagrees with you.
I'm actually on the defensive
 
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giphy.gif
 
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They are vague because we will never know if the Ivy's attract the type of people who have the intelligence and will to specialize regardless of where they went.
So are you really saying that a med based curriculum isn't an advantage for the CBSE? Or that P/F or no ranks is generally less stressful and usually more advantageous than rank? The pro-ivies (pro nonrank+medbased curriculum) people are arguing that the above 2 points are concrete advantages. Makes sense given the CBSE is med based, but if you still don't believe it, then we will just have to agree to disagree.
 
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So are you really saying that a med based curriculum isn't an advantage for the CBSE? Or that P/F or no ranks is generally less stressful and usually more advantageous than rank? The pro-ivies (pro nonrank+medbased curriculum) people are arguing that the above 2 points are concrete advantages. Makes sense given the CBSE is med based, but if you still don't believe it, then we will just have to agree to disagree.
:beat:
 
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Except if you took everyone at an Ivy and introduced the traditional ranking system, we can safely say no matter how smart the students only the top 1o-20% would be able to specialize, especially when it comes to specialties such as Orthodontics where rank is heavily considered.

I truly don't believe that the students who attend the Ivy institutions are that different intelligence wise. State schools are filled with people who got great scores but like you decided to save money.

Still if you feel it's absurd to risk 200k for a better chance at specializing that's your right and I will respect it, but you don't need to go on the offensive on every thread where someone disagrees with you.
The people who say ivies aren't worth 200k but have advantages are reasonable. Those who say there are advantages that are worth 200k are reasonable as well. Those who deny any advantage whatsoever on the other hand..
 
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The people who say ivies aren't worth 200k but have advantages are reasonable. Those who say there are advantages that are worth 200k are reasonable as well. Those who deny any advantage whatsoever on the other hand..

79985d1484632408-engine-replacement-something-different-end-thread.jpg
 
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AccessOMFS |

Great resource if you haven't checked it out. Tons of posts that I have found helpful. This isn't just directed at Medin2017 I suggest anyone who is interested take a look
Yea I use that. Pretty cool how they give a planned out schedule. Too bad my school gives no/very little time to study for boards sigh..
 
So I was thinking about schools I wanted to apply to. My cumulative GPA is 3.97 (although it might get a slight hit this semester) and my science GPA is 4.0. My DAT is 25.
Currently, I'm looking at UNC, UCLA, Texas schools, Case Western, Marquette, and Columbia. Any suggestions on which other good shools I should apply to?
Also, does anyone here know if there are any schools that give some scholarships?


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Those stats are amazing! I would be selective with the schools you apply to since you are competitive for every school. Just keep in mind your ECs will matter a lot. Good luck!
 
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Almost no schools do. My med school based, P/F curriculum school where we are apparently given a 90 CBSE official score report at birth does not give us time for it. Studying for the CBSE while in pre-clinic/clinic/dental classes is just the nature of the beast that the vast, vast majority of applicants have to deal with.
Are you referring to studying for the NBDE or the CBSE when you say boards?
 
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It will be a lot easier to study for it in school than it was to study for it 4 years into practice.

Prioritize your time. I skipped most of my removable prosth lectures to study for my NBDE (numeric score at the time) and it paid off.
 
It's ridiculous how many of you think a "prestigious" name on your CV is a golden ticket to the specialty program of your choice. Seriously. If I were a moderator I'd ban anyone who keeps pushing this utter nonsense. Seriously

The things I wish I can ban people for....
Unfortunately we need to let people speak their minds. Even if it is completely wrong, as long as they are professional about it.

You can absolutely Match out of any school! You can absolutely Match out of any school! Maybe if I say it twice it'll get into some of your heads. My lowly state school had a 100% Match rate for pedo, ortho, pros, endo, and perio and a 75% Match rate for surgery. How hard is it to realize it's the applicant that matters, not the freakin' name of their school?! Program Directors care about what YOU have done, not your school!

So, go to the cheapest school you get into. Do any of you truly comprehend the likely $200,000+ price difference between a solid state school and an Ivy? It's a literal crap ton of money! Do you know what you can do with a quarter of a million dollars?!

Great, Big Hoss is all agitated now and needs to relax and take a nap.

Big Hoss

Mr. Savage is absolutely correct.

There are people in every dental school who's academic performance is nothing short of unbelievable. But self-selection is huge too. Some may think they aren't competitive enoigh, so they don't bother applying. Some apply despite having no realistic chance of matching based on academics. Some apply despite having zero extracurricular on their CV. Some people just want to be top of the class, with no interest in specializing.

So you see folks, if you REALLY want to specialize then work hard, do all the right things, and you will. If not, do a GPR and try again. And if you still can't match, try and get an internship (if going for OMFS). If you STILL can't match, chances are going to a different school would not have changed a thing.

Nope. Because p/f curriculum and ranking not being a big factor in those schools, competitive classmates =/= lowering your chances. That's why Columbia had 18/19 OMFS matches (prob a lot of peds and orthos and other specialties too) and penn had 12/12.

The bolded statement is definitely false LOL. If you put equal work in a med based curriculum, you would be so much more prepared for the CBSE than if you put in that amount of work into a dental biomedical sciences curriculum.

Finally, your last paragraph I don't agree either. If OMFS median is 390 and dental OWNERS is 180 (less now I believe and on a continual decline), within like 3-4 years you would earn it back and then start outearning. And please let's keep the discussion on medians, NOT outliers (every predent thinks they are "good businesspeople".

I will say I half agree with your CBSE statement. It's not all about the quantitative effort placed. But the curriculum at some of the feeder schools ARE more medically oriented, and the CBSE is very medically oriented. I think many people REALLY underestimate this exam. Knowing details and understanding concepts are not necessarily the same. It is NOTHING like the DAT, which is alot of memorization and strategy. CBSE had alot more critical thinking involved, and many who performed well on class exams find the CBSE very different.
But if your school is either not medically oriented, or if you find you can incorporate the knowledge you've learned to overcome that obstacle and still score high, then at that point I find that school attended does not matter.

I do disagree about your statement on dental owner income. Just because the income lists as $180K does not mean that is how much a dentist makes. That information is not reliable, and I do not know of any reliable statistics regarding practice owners median net revenue. The reason for this is because many practices are incorporated. The owner is an employee and takes a "salary," and this can mitigate income tax liability. In fact it is in the dentists best interest to minimize their reported salary.
Other factors to consider are overhead, collections, payroll, etc. When it comes to the remaining revenue, much more can be written off. Maximizing on tax deductions (legally and ethically) is very beneficial in this field because dentistry has lots of expenisive equipment. This equipment has a value and a "life-span," and you can write off the depreciation based on a schedule and reduce liability. There are of course many many more factors involved in business, but ultimately the point I am trying to illustrate is that total earnings are not so transparent.
 
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Mother of god what a crazy thread... I feel like this topic pops up every other year or so and has a different slant every time. One year its "go with the better school every time" then then next year its "go with the cheapest school every time", then the next year its "its the student, not the school" and then the nest year its "the med school curriculum gives you the advantage". All of this is a load of horse **** if you really think any one of these is THE answer to the problem/question. The fact is, all of these play a role to some degree, and if you want to specialize, focus on trying to specialize, and go to the school you want to go to... There is never a single best answer. Plus, odds are you will likely not specialize but rather end up a GP. Don't shoot the messenger, its just the odds. Keep that in mind. :thumbup:
 
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Mother of god what a crazy thread... I feel like this topic pops up every other year or so and has a different slant every time. One year its "go with the better school every time" then then next year its "go with the cheapest school every time", then the next year its "its the student, not the school" and then the nest year its "the med school curriculum gives you the advantage". All of this is a load of horse **** if you really think any one of these is THE answer to the problem/question. The fact is, all of these play a role to some degree, and if you want to specialize, focus on trying to specialize, and go to the school you want to go to... There is never a single best answer. Plus, odds are you will likely not specialize but rather end up a GP. Don't shoot the messenger, its just the odds. Keep that in mind. :thumbup:
The one thing that stays the same year after year is that paying back student loans really, really sucks. That, my friend, is an absolute guarantee.

Big Hoss
 
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The one thing that stays the same year after year is that paying back student loans really, really sucks. That, my friend, is an absolute guarantee.

Big Hoss

Trust me, I hear you. If anyone has trolled these forums long enough, you will know where I stand on this topic haha.
 
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So you see folks, if you REALLY want to specialize then work hard, do all the right things, and you will. If not, do a GPR and try again. And if you still can't match, try and get an internship (if going for OMFS). If you STILL can't match, chances are going to a different school would not have changed a thing.
I like this.

Big Hoss
 
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The things I wish I can ban people for....
Unfortunately we need to let people speak their minds. Even if it is completely wrong, as long as they are professional about it.



Mr. Savage is absolutely correct.

There are people in every dental school who's academic performance is nothing short of unbelievable. But self-selection is huge too. Some may think they aren't competitive enoigh, so they don't bother applying. Some apply despite having no realistic chance of matching based on academics. Some apply despite having zero extracurricular on their CV. Some people just want to be top of the class, with no interest in specializing.

So you see folks, if you REALLY want to specialize then work hard, do all the right things, and you will. If not, do a GPR and try again. And if you still can't match, try and get an internship (if going for OMFS). If you STILL can't match, chances are going to a different school would not have changed a thing.



I will say I half agree with your CBSE statement. It's not all about the quantitative effort placed. But the curriculum at some of the feeder schools ARE more medically oriented, and the CBSE is very medically oriented. I think many people REALLY underestimate this exam. Knowing details and understanding concepts are not necessarily the same. It is NOTHING like the DAT, which is alot of memorization and strategy. CBSE had alot more critical thinking involved, and many who performed well on class exams find the CBSE very different.
But if your school is either not medically oriented, or if you find you can incorporate the knowledge you've learned to overcome that obstacle and still score high, then at that point I find that school attended does not matter.

I do disagree about your statement on dental owner income. Just because the income lists as $180K does not mean that is how much a dentist makes. That information is not reliable, and I do not know of any reliable statistics regarding practice owners median net revenue. The reason for this is because many practices are incorporated. The owner is an employee and takes a "salary," and this can mitigate income tax liability. In fact it is in the dentists best interest to minimize their reported salary.
Other factors to consider are overhead, collections, payroll, etc. When it comes to the remaining revenue, much more can be written off. Maximizing on tax deductions (legally and ethically) is very beneficial in this field because dentistry has lots of expenisive equipment. This equipment has a value and a "life-span," and you can write off the depreciation based on a schedule and reduce liability. There are of course many many more factors involved in business, but ultimately the point I am trying to illustrate is that total earnings are not so transparent.
Can't we assume specialist income would be higher too then if they want to underreport considering many are private practice/owners as well? Or that they write stuff off too? It would inflate specialist income as well, which wouldn't change the point too much right? Also, one thing that's scaring me about general dentistry is the fact that general dental income has been on the decline and specialist income is going slightly more upwards. Plus when we talk saturation, isn't it much more likely to hit general dentists since there are so many more than say an OMFS? I think stability in that sense is also something very valuable.
 
Can't we assume specialist income would be higher too then if they want to underreport considering many are private practice/owners as well? Or that they write stuff off too? It would inflate specialist income as well, which wouldn't change the point too much right? Also, one thing that's scaring me about general dentistry is the fact that general dental income has been on the decline and specialist income is going slightly more upwards. Plus when we talk saturation, isn't it much more likely to hit general dentists since there are so many more than say an OMFS? I think stability in that sense is also something very valuable.

No, considering that the need for general dentists is proportionately higher than the need for specialists.
 
Well here's some interesting tibits I ran into.

From two surveys of program directors in endodontics and orthdodontics

Applicant selection procedures in endodontic specialty programs in the United States: program director's perspective. - PubMed - NCBI

Endo:
"Respondents generally considered class rank very important. Some dental schools grade on a pass/fail basis (with or without
honors), so they do not provide a class rank. If applicants from schools with class ranks receive higher ratings, attending pass/fail institutions may actually work against candidates for endodontic specialty positions because a critical objective criterion will be absent from their applica- tion (12). Further study into this idea may be warranted as more schools adopt a pass/fail grading system at the same time as the NBDE scoring change."

Endo program directors considered dental school attended as the 16th most important factor.


Applicant selection procedures for orthodontic specialty programs in the United States: survey of program directors. - PubMed - NCBI

Ortho:
"The current dilemma facing orthodontic programs, as well as other specialty programs, is the failure to
objectively assess applicants’ class rank in the light of differences in dental school curricula and grading systems. A previous study showed that applicants with an available class rank are ranked higher in the residency se- lection process than those whose schools did not issue class rankings.18 This is a concern and can be a disadvantage to applicants matriculating from schools that do not issue numeric or letter grades. "

Ortho program director considered dental school attended as the 14th most important factor.
 
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Well here's some interesting tibits I ran into.

From two surveys of program directors in endodontics and orthdodontics

Applicant selection procedures in endodontic specialty programs in the United States: program director's perspective. - PubMed - NCBI

Endo:
"Respondents generally considered class rank very important. Some dental schools grade on a pass/fail basis (with or without
honors), so they do not provide a class rank. If applicants from schools with class ranks receive higher ratings, attending pass/fail institutions may actually work against candidates for endodontic specialty positions because a critical objective criterion will be absent from their applica- tion (12). Further study into this idea may be warranted as more schools adopt a pass/fail grading system at the same time as the NBDE scoring change."

Endo program directors considered dental school attended as the 16th most important factor.


Applicant selection procedures for orthodontic specialty programs in the United States: survey of program directors. - PubMed - NCBI

Ortho:
"The current dilemma facing orthodontic programs, as well as other specialty programs, is the failure to
objectively assess applicants’ class rank in the light of differences in dental school curricula and grading systems. A previous study showed that applicants with an available class rank are ranked higher in the residency se- lection process than those whose schools did not issue class rankings.18 This is a concern and can be a disadvantage to applicants matriculating from schools that do not issue numeric or letter grades. "

Ortho program director considered dental school attended as the 14th most important factor.

No one is saying the ivies are good because residency programs look favorly at prestige. Also OP said he was interested in OMFS, so the thread was geared towards that...
 
By reputation I meant if they have good research opportunities. I've heard about how Texas schools lack in research, and that'd be bad for getting a match for OMFS due to lack of research experience. But then again, I don't know a lot about it. It's what I've read other people say on SDN.

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Who did you hear this from??

Check it out: One of the most prestigious dental research awards for student researchers
International Association for Dental Research > IADR > Awards > IADR Competitions > IADR Unilever Hatton Competition & Awards > 2017
International Association for Dental Research > IADR > Awards > IADR Competitions > IADR Unilever Hatton Competition & Awards > 2016

Guess where the 1st place winners are from? Texas... This is INTERNATIONAL competition, meaning they also placed 1st/2nd in the national competition prior to competing internationally. OMFS specific research is also not lacking either. Publication opportunity is not at all uncommon.
 
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