Why are so many non US IMG filling residency spots?

[ES671]

this is next level. A carribean medical student complaining that medical students from other countries (not Caribbean) are getting residency spots.

This sounds very self serving. If you asked me, no foreign medical students (including carribean) should be getting spots.

It should be USMD -> DO -> debate about the rest.

How about MD/DO, what's with hate towards DO students now.

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[olabrador23]

Then why did you endorse efforts to make the exam pass/fail if you are now supporting the opposite?

b/c I can? (jk)

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

Not if they realized that US IMGs are people who couldnt get into medical school, whereas Foreign IMGs are top tier applicants.

You don't know that. A very good number of my classmates in Grenada were non US citizens. If anything, a minority of Foreign IMGs are "top tier applicants." But what I am arguing is that their academic performance in whatever country they come from should not be enough to keep an American citizen from getting a job. There would still be spots open for these so called top tier candidates if all American citizens were accommodated first. Why is would this change in the system be so unfair?

 

[olabrador23]

These people on average outperform you (and me) in every way. Higher scores, better schools, and are already doctors. Life usually isn’t fair, but this is.

I think it is time for a new ranking: non-US FMG >>>> US MD >>> US DO >> US IMGs?

 

[olabrador23]

How about MD/DO, what's with hate towards DO students now.

I just read from the posts above above that US MD is the landlord, DO is peasant... you did not see that? (check page 1 of the thread) ( jk)

 

[Ho0v-man]

I think it is time for a new ranking: non-US FMG >>>> US MD >>> US DO >> US IMGs?

I mean maybe. Don’t know why say a neurologist from another country has a hard time getting a neurology residency but I’ve seen it happen.

 

[7331poas]

You don't know that. A very good number of my classmates in Grenada were non US citizens. If anything, a minority of Foreign IMGs are "top tier applicants." But what I am arguing is that their academic performance in whatever country they come from should not be enough to keep an American citizen from getting a job. There would still be spots open for these so called top tier candidates if all American citizens were accommodated first. Why is would this change in the system be so unfair?

I am talking about foreign IMGs who are not coming from the "if you can afford tuition then you are admitted" Caribbean schools.

 

[Sephirakra]

You don't know that. A very good number of my classmates in Grenada were non US citizens. If anything, a minority of Foreign IMGs are "top tier applicants." But what I am arguing is that their academic performance in whatever country they come from should not be enough to keep an American citizen from getting a job. There would still be spots open for these so called top tier candidates if all American citizens were accommodated first.

Here's another problem with your argument: discrimination in hiring based on national origin is prohibited under federal law. So if an FMG is a similar/better candidate than a US-citizen IMG, using citizenship as a deciding factor would be illegal. (Of course, IANAL and I'm sure if the politicians wanted to they could circumvent the Civil Rights Act, etc. etc.)

 

[Mass Effect]

So there were a a total of 3 people if I remember correctly (out of over 100 residents) who were USAMGs and ended up at the IM program I was rotating at. I spoke to 2 of them and one of them failed step 1 AND 2 twice and the other one had sexual allegations directed against him that should honestly make anyone ineligible to practice medicine. But if you look at the link I posted there are still many USIMGs applying solely to uncompetitive specialties like family medicine who are still going unmatched who have presumably passed their steps on their first attempt and are not criminals. This is a little off topic from the original purpose of this thread but I do think it highlights how the "system" needs some overhaul.

That's a big assumption.

Frankly, I'm of the opinion that the Caribbean med school industry should be run out of business. Many (most?) are for-profit diploma mills offering chance after chance after chance to collect tuition. Some don't even require you pass Step 1 before earning that coveted M.D.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

Here's another problem with your argument: discrimination in hiring based on national origin is prohibited under federal law. So if an FMG is a similar/better candidate than a US-citizen IMG, using citizenship as a deciding factor would be illegal. (Of course, IANAL and I'm sure if the politicians wanted to they could circumvent the Civil Rights Act, etc. etc.)

I know this law. You are interpreting it incorrectly. It is illegal to discriminate with regards to citizenship when you are considering Americans. Hence to show preference towards a born/raised candidate from Texas vs a first generation immigrant from Pakistan who has citizenship status would be illegal. However, non-citizens are of course not entitled to any of these protections.

 

[Sephirakra]

I know this law. You are interpreting it incorrectly. It is illegal to discriminate with regards to citizenship when you are considering Americans. Hence to show preference towards a born/raised candidate from Texas vs a first generation immigrant from Pakistan who has citizenship status would be illegal. However, non-citizens are of course not entitled to any of these protections.

National Origin Discrimination

National Origin Discrimination

www.eeoc.gov

Scroll down to the bottom of the page.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

National Origin Discrimination

National Origin Discrimination

www.eeoc.gov

Scroll down to the bottom of the page.

I can't believe something like that could be true. From a moral standpoint that is absolutely absurd. So let me put it this way, say I wanted to be a doctor in Chile (a reasonably developed county). Should I be considered for a training spot there before a qualified Chilean national under any circumstance? I don't think any reasonable person would say yes to that question. But even if they did, I am sure every other country on Earth has policies to prevent this from occurring.

 

[Sephirakra]

I can't believe something like that could be true. From a moral standpoint that is absolutely absurd. So let me put it this way, say I wanted to be a doctor in Chile (a reasonably developed county). Should I be considered for a training spot there before a qualified Chilean national under any circumstance? I don't think any reasonable person would say yes to that question. But even if they did, I am sure every other country on Earth has policies to prevent this from occurring.

That's the EEOC's own website. Let's make this clear: the law is not forcing anyone to consider FMGs over IMGs, but simply to view them on an equal playing field. I, as an American citizen, have no problem with that. So stop trying to move the goalposts.

 

[Mass Effect]

I can't believe something like that could be true. From a moral standpoint that is absolutely absurd. So let me put it this way, say I wanted to be a doctor in Chile (a reasonably developed county). Should I be considered for a training spot there before a qualified Chilean national under any circumstance? I don't think any reasonable person would say yes to that question. But even if they did, I am sure every other country on Earth has policies to prevent this from occurring.

If the Chilean doctor wasn't qualified, yes, you should.

 

[7331poas]

I can't believe something like that could be true. From a moral standpoint that is absolutely absurd. So let me put it this way, say I wanted to be a doctor in Chile (a reasonably developed county). Should I be considered for a training spot there before a qualified Chilean national under any circumstance? I don't think any reasonable person would say yes to that question. But even if they did, I am sure every other country on Earth has policies to prevent this from occurring.

No one said "before".

You are moving goal posts.

You went to a school in the carribean and now you are complaining about not getting a free ride.

 

[ciestar]

Moral of the story: dont go carib

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

No one said "before".

You are moving goal posts.

You went to a school in the carribean and now you are complaining about not getting a free ride.

This has nothing to do with me personally. I scored over 240 on my step 1 so it is unlikely I won't match. But if I had a barely passing score like many of my classmates and ended up unmatched to community level IM/FM programs while they are filled with people who have no allegiance to this nation whatsoever (and have hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt with no other skills), you better believe I would feel that this country has failed me.

 

[chlorocruorin]

LOLView attachment 270588

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

If the Chilean doctor wasn't qualified, yes, you should.

Right that's why I used the word qualified.

 

[chlorocruorin]

OP

 

[Sephirakra]

This has nothing to do with me personally. I scored over 240 on my step 1 so it is unlikely I won't match. But if I had a barely passing score like many of my classmates and ended up unmatched to community level IM/FM programs while they are filled with people who have no allegiance to this nation whatsoever (and have hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt with no other skills), you better believe I would feel that this country has failed me.

You and your classmates all made a conscious decision to go to the Caribbean rather than a school here in the US. I don't care to hear your reasons, as they're not important. The country didn't fail any of you. Stop looking for others to blame for your circumstances.

You've made up your mind that you deserve special treatment, though you've done nothing to warrant it. I still hope you match well, I really do.

Regardless, I'm leaving the train wreck of xenophobia that is this thread.

 

[Raney Schauer]

"
Why are so many non US IMG filling residency spots?

"

Without reading all your wall of text, I'll give it to you simply: They're good, this is America, the land of opportunity. If you think you deserve the spot over one of them, then outperform them. That's all you have to do. Period, point, end of discussion.

 

[gyngyn]

A civil discussion (however heated) may continue.
If not, this thread will be closed.

 

[hungrydoc710]

To give a little more clarity to what I am saying since I am not sure how how well I presented it, I read and attached the most recent NRMP match data (2018). Ignoring US MD and DO since the vast vast majority do match and only focusing on applicants with IMG status, there were a total of 5075 USIMGs and 7067 non-USIMGs in that cycle. Of those 2505 USIMGs matched as did 3490 non USIMGs for at total of 5995 positions. If non USIMGs we taken out of the equation there would be enough spots to accommodate all US Citizens applying with a remainder of 920 open slots. I think the best non USIMGs should then be considered to fill these positions only. There would still be room for a sizable number of them and this would ensure that no American goes unemployed in this field. If anything this would ensure even more so that only the best non-US citizen MDs get spots. Does this not sound reasonable?

Note this also makes a key assumption that these two groups are competing for similar tier spots which is for the most part almost certainly true.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Charting-Outcomes-in-the-Match-2018-IMGs.pdf

Why do you think every US-IMG should go matched?
Half these kids are burnouts who couldn't muster a decent GPA or MCAT, but want to go to med school to please thier families.

50% US-IMG matching, 50% non-US IMG makes sense to me.
Those are the odds when you go to a Carrib school.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Why do you think every US-IMG should go matched?
Half these kids are burnouts who couldn't muster a decent GPA or MCAT, but want to go to med school to please thier families.

50% US-IMG matching, 50% non-US IMG makes sense to me.
Those are the odds when you go to a Carrib school.

Not the best argument. They still pass boards.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

Why do you think every US-IMG should go matched?
Half these kids are burnouts who couldn't muster a decent GPA or MCAT, but want to go to med school to please thier families.

50% US-IMG matching, 50% non-US IMG makes sense to me.
Those are the odds when you go to a Carrib school.

It's roughly 60% USIMGs and 55% non-US IMGs matching right now. It should be 100% USIMGs matching and 15% non USIMGs matching instead. This would ensure every qualified American has a job. Some non-USIMGs would still match and most would not. But even if they don't at least their entire futures/livelihoods are not dependent on them getting a post-grad training spot here like it is for us.

 

[hungrydoc710]

Not the best argument. They still pass boards.

Doesn't matter - anyone can memorize FA details and use resources to pass a test.
What about the pre-clinical education before that? What about the SP cases I'm sure they don't have, etc.

As Goro says, consider the 50% match rate of going IMG as the DOUBLE TAX from having a poor GPA AND poor MCAT

 

[hungrydoc710]

It's roughly 60% USIMGs and 55% non-US IMGs matching right now. It should be 100% USIMGs matching and 15% non USIMGs matching instead. This would ensure every qualified American has a job. Some non-USIMGs would still match and most would not. But even if they don't at least their entire futures/livelihoods are not dependent on them getting a post-grad training spot here like it is for us.

No, it should be 100% MD and DO matching
Match rates for IMG's are fine where they are, and will drop even more if the boards become pass/fail.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Doesn't matter - anyone can memorize FA details and use resources to pass a test.
What about the pre-clinical education before that? What about the SP cases I'm sure they don't have, etc.

As Goro says, consider the 50% match rate of going IMG as the DOUBLE TAX from having a poor GPA AND poor MCAT

Preclinical education is essentially memorizing crap to pass step. I’ve learned essentially nothing from my SP encounters and most people anywhere just cram clinical skills labs and immediately dump that info.

I don’t agree with OPs logic, but I’ve never really understood why Caribs get the short end of the stick, especially when compared to DOs. Caribs still pass all the same licensing exams as US MDs and only a little over half of DOs can say the same. (Technically no DOs can say that since they don’t take step 3 or CS). Also, the majority of DOs had a crap GPA and MCAT.

DOs have poorly standardized third years. Is the Carib really worse? I suppose the logic here is that there’s just so many schools and nobody really knows anything about any of them.

 

[hungrydoc710]

Preclinical education is essentially memorizing crap to pass step. I’ve learned essentially nothing from my SP encounters and most people anywhere just cram clinical skills labs and immediately dump that info.

I don’t agree with OPs logic, but I’ve never really understood why Caribs get the short end of the stick, especially when compared to DOs. Caribs still pass all the same licensing exams as US MDs and only a little over half of DOs can say the same. (Technically no DOs can say that since they don’t take step 3 or CS). Also, the majority of DOs had a crap GPA and MCAT.

DOs have poorly standardized third years. Is the Carib really worse? I suppose the logic here is that there’s just so many schools and nobody really knows anything about any of them.

Lolll yes bro if we were to compare Carribbean schools GPA/MCAT's vs Osteopathic US medical school GPA/MCAT's yes, they are really worse.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I think there is a push right now from the AOA and the AMA to advocate for a bill or something that would require residency programs to consider US grads first before any IMGs or FMGs. I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere, but now I can't find the link.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Lolll yes bro if we were to compare Carribbean schools GPA/MCAT's vs Osteopathic US medical school GPA/MCAT's yes, they are really worse.

You're a clown.

Just trying to be fair. I’m a DO student.

Edit: 100% of Caribs applying for residency passed step 1. The same can’t be said of DOs.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Lolll yes bro if we were to compare Carribbean schools GPA/MCAT's vs Osteopathic US medical school GPA/MCAT's yes, they are really worse.

You're a clown.

My school is a new school, and they average 3.5+ GPA and 500 MCAT. When I was applying 2 years ago and was researching schools, I talked on phone with an Admission officer for SGU, and they told me their average was something around 3.2 GPA and 496 MCAT, so yeah I agree with you.

 

[SLC]

That soundn’t matter, a US citizen who actually pays taxes that supports these programs should always be given precedence over someone who is not American. Regardless of board scores or other metrics. I seriously doubt their home countries would do the same for us under any circumstances. To think that some refugee from Syria could get a job in one of the most prestigious careers in our country, while simultaneously leaving a qualified born/raised American unemployed is honestly sickening.

US Taxpayers deserve the best, even if that means a non-US citizen.

This is Healthcare man, peoples lives and all that. It’s not time to employ unqualified doctors just because they are citizens of the USA.

 

[differentiating]

I just started residency this past month at a well-regarded program. Two of my co-residents are FMGs, and one is a non-US citizen AMG - the rest of us are typical AMGs. I have had the pleasure of working alongside one of the FMGs on my current rotation, and honestly she’s very good at what she does. She’s also a better co-intern to work with than the other AMG on the rotation in terms of sharing the workload/etc. It’s also worth noting that she did research in the US for a few years, so she’s paid more taxes than I have as a fresh grad.

All this to say: I’m happy she matched over a less-qualified IMG, because citizenship isn’t as important as producing high-quality doctors. She didn’t steal a spot. She earned it.

 

[Lawpy]

US Taxpayers deserve the best, even if that means a non-US citizen.

This is Healthcare man, peoples lives and all that. It’s not time to employ unqualified doctors just because they are citizens of the USA.

I just started residency this past month at a well-regarded program. Two of my co-residents are FMGs, and one is a non-US citizen AMG - the rest of us are typical AMGs. I have had the pleasure of working alongside one of the FMGs on my current rotation, and honestly she’s very good at what she does. She’s also a better co-intern to work with than the other AMG on the rotation in terms of sharing the workload/etc. It’s also worth noting that she did research in the US for a few years, so she’s paid more taxes than I have as a fresh grad.

All this to say: I’m happy she matched over a less-qualified IMG, because citizenship isn’t as important as producing high-quality doctors. She didn’t steal a spot. She earned it.

Well said. Sad that this thread is otherwise reeking with entitlement and arrogance

 

[deleted500612]

Not true. If you look at stuff like nsg, there are still some people going unmatched with great stats. A small number sure, but still a small amount.

And how many of those people with great stats go unmatched because they also have red flags? Or because they don't apply to enough programs, or because they only apply in one specific region? Certainly most. Once you remove these confounders and consider only those who have killer stats, no red flags (yes, that includes obvious personality disorders), also applied broadly... but STILL didn't match, I bet that number is extremely minuscule-to-nonexistent.

Second, applying to a backup is an acceptable course of events for some, but it can limit the number of programs that you apply to (e.g not applying to a gen surg program at the same program where you are applying to a plastics residency).

Then just apply to different schools for your backup specialty? Apply to bottom-tier programs in your backup as a safety. Or if your application is borderline just play it safe and make your backup specialty your primary specialty? Again, these are all choices you make. Nobody is forcing someone to apply solely to plastic surgery, they are voluntarily taking the risk of going all-in on plastics. It is a willful risk. You could go general surgery or primary care and have a virtual 100% chance of matching with the same stats. People feel entitled to certain specialties and are willing to risk going unmatched in order to pursue it. There's not necessarily a problem with that, it's a free choice to make if you think the risk is worth it, but don't complain about how the system is "unfair" because some IMGs matched family medicine while you went unmatched. You could have gone family medicine route also and had essentially a 100% chance of matching over those IMGs, but instead chose to take the risk on a highly competitive field that you were only marginally competitive for.

Third, many people are not going unmatched because of the situation you described. Many are unmatched because of board failures and the need to stay in a certain geographic region.

Umm those are actually exactly the situations I have described. I said people aren't matching due to either serious red flags or poor recognition of their own lack of merit relative to what they are applying for. A board failure definitely counts as a serious red flag. And there is no such thing as a "need" to stay in certain geographic regions, there is a choice to limit yourself only to certain geographic regions. If you want to stay in one particular area because you're scared to be too far from mommy or the in-laws or you are going to place your spouse's career demands above your own and absolutely refuse to do long distance for a couple years, then that is your choice. And if your application is not competitive enough to afford you to safely make that choice, then again this falls into the category of not recognizing your own lack of merits and results in an entirely avoidable risk of going unmatched.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

I just started residency this past month at a well-regarded program. Two of my co-residents are FMGs, and one is a non-US citizen AMG - the rest of us are typical AMGs. I have had the pleasure of working alongside one of the FMGs on my current rotation, and honestly she’s very good at what she does. She’s also a better co-intern to work with than the other AMG on the rotation in terms of sharing the workload/etc. It’s also worth noting that she did research in the US for a few years, so she’s paid more taxes than I have as a fresh grad.

All this to say: I’m happy she matched over a less-qualified IMG, because citizenship isn’t as important as producing high-quality doctors. She didn’t steal a spot. She earned it.

But....she still matched over another qualified American citizen and that in and of itself is a problem. There is somebody else on the other end who was born and raised in this country and now has 8 years worth of debt and a complete inability to practice medicine. Medical training in whatever country she comes from is most certainly a fraction of the cost, is only 5-6 years in length, and she was likely already working as a doctor before she decided to try and come here. This is what I am trying to draw attention to despite all the bickering and put downs that are plaguing this thread. How can anyone possibly justify this? There would still be spots left for her (if she is truly so special) after every American is placed.

 

[hungrydoc710]

Thread should close. Useless to begin with.

 

[chaim123]

But....she still matched over another qualified American citizen and that in and of itself is a problem. There is somebody else on the other end who was born and raised in this country and now has 8 years worth of debt and a complete inability to practice medicine. Medical training in whatever country she comes from is most certainly a fraction of the cost, is only 5-6 years in length, and she was likely already working as a doctor before she decided to try and come here. This is what I am trying to draw attention to despite all the bickering and put downs that are plaguing this thread. How can anyone possibly justify this? There would still be spots left for her (if she is truly so special) after every American is placed.

And that American, born and raised in this country with 8 years of debt, either did not apply to that program, or did apply and did not rank highly enough to be matched, aka were unable to compete with an FMG. This usually means that applicant wasn't even on the same level as that FMG, and probably wasn't competitive for that program to begin with. You think being an American citizen entitles one to complete residency, but being an American citizen who excels in medical school and shows the skills required to be a practicing physician is what makes one competitive for residency.

 

[SLC]

But....she still matched over another qualified American citizen and that in and of itself is a problem. There is somebody else on the other end who was born and raised in this country and now has 8 years worth of debt and a complete inability to practice medicine.

This is not a valid argument.

Nobody forced you to go to the Caribbean. And you knew the odds of matching before going there. That or you should have done your homework.

As I said above, being a US citizen is not a valid reason to deprive a patient of a better qualified doctor. You wouldn’t accept the same for yourself (I’d wager) so why do you expect the general citizenry of the USA to do it for you?

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

And that American, born and raised in this country with 8 years of debt, either did not apply to that program, or did apply and did not rank highly enough to be matched, aka were unable to compete with an FMG. This usually means that applicant wasn't even on the same level as that FMG, and probably wasn't competitive for that program to begin with. You think being an American citizen entitles one to complete residency, but being an American citizen who excels in medical school and shows the skills required to be a practicing physician is what makes one competitive for residency.

There should be no competition. In my opinion there should be a separate match similar to the SOAP only open to non American FMGs after the regular match takes place and all eligible Americans are matched.

Sorry if you and others feel like my posts/demeanor screams entitlement, but there are certain things that your national citizenship makes you entitled to. Having the ability to live and work in your profession in your own country is one of them.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

This is not a valid argument.

Nobody forced you to go to the Caribbean. And you knew the odds of matching before going there. That or you should have done your homework.

As I said above, being a US citizen is not a valid reason to deprive a patient of a better qualified doctor. You wouldn’t accept the same for yourself (I’d wager) so why do you expect the general citizenry of the USA to do it for you?

Yeah you are correct, I knew the odds. But I know idea that the entire reason for that was because of what I outlined in my OP.

 

[chaim123]

Having the ability to live and work in your profession in your own country is one of them.

Having the right to live and work is a right afforded by citizenship. However, it does not give me a right work/live where I want, when I want, doing what I want. That's the part that screams entitlement. Plenty of hardworking Americans have to work in professions that aren't their first choice or they don't love.

 

[7331poas]

A board failure definitely counts as a serious red flag. And there is no such thing as a "need" to stay in certain geographic regions, there is a choice to limit yourself only to certain geographic regions. If you want to stay in one particular area because you're scared to be too far from mommy or the in-laws or you are going to place your spouse's career demands above your own and absolutely refuse to do long distance for a couple years, then that is your choice. And if your application is not competitive enough to afford you to safely make that choice, then again this falls into the category of not recognizing your own lack of merits and results in an entirely avoidable risk of going unmatched.

My point is that no US MD should go unmatched, regardless of board failures or geographical preference. And yes, when you are 29-30 and you are married, going long distance for a few years will usually result in a divorce.

 

[Mass Effect]

This has nothing to do with me personally. I scored over 240 on my step 1 so it is unlikely I won't match. But if I had a barely passing score like many of my classmates and ended up unmatched to community level IM/FM programs while they are filled with people who have no allegiance to this nation whatsoever (and have hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt with no other skills), you better believe I would feel that this country has failed me

Your classmates who have the "barely passing score" are not as qualified as the FMG who outperformed in his/her home country. That's why they don't get the spot.

Right that's why I used the word qualified.

See above.

Preclinical education is essentially memorizing crap to pass step

This shows lack of understanding of medical education.

I’ve learned essentially nothing from my SP encounters and most people anywhere just cram clinical skills labs and immediately dump that info

And they're usually the ones complaining on the Clinical Years threads about poor evals.

I don’t agree with OPs logic, but I’ve never really understood why Caribs get the short end of the stick, especially when compared to DOs. Caribs still pass all the same licensing exams as US MDs and only a little over half of DOs can say the same. (Technically no DOs can say that since they don’t take step 3 or CS). Also, the majority of DOs had a crap GPA and MCAT

Actually, many (most?) of the Carib students couldn't get into a DO school. Carib was the last resort. The ones who went to the Carib willingly before trying DO prove that the vanity of the MD degree outweighs their ability to match, so que sera sera.

 

[chaim123]

My point is that no US MD should go unmatched, regardless of board failures or geographical preference. And yes, when you are 29-30 and you are married, going long distance for a few years will usually result in a divorce.

This is just unreasonable. Someone with multiple board failures who refuses to leave Boston should match at the top medical centers of the world?

 

[Ho0v-man]

Your classmates who have the "barely passing score" are not as qualified as the FMG who outperformed in his/her home country. That's why they don't get the spot.




See above.



This shows lack of understanding of medical education.



And they're usually the ones complaining on the Clinical Years threads about poor evals.



Actually, many (most?) of the Carib students couldn't get into a DO school. Carib was the last resort. The ones who went to the Carib willingly before trying DO prove that the vanity of the MD degree outweighs their ability to match, so que sera sera.



My DO degree sitting next to my training diploma from one of the best hospitals in the country/world should answer that question.

I’ve completed preclinical education/boards so I believe I do understand it. The evals; well time will tell.

I’m trying to draw attention to the whole DO>>Carib thing. The argument is usually from DOs that Caribs couldn’t get a good GPA and MCAT for DO. But when the same argument is made for comparing DO to USMD, all of a sudden undergrad shouldn’t matter. So I just think that argument against Caribs is poor.

Really not sure about how clinical Ed compares between DO and Caribs and was genuinely asking.

Congratulations on your residency match and all of its associated bragging rights.

 

[deleted500612]

My point is that no US MD should go unmatched, regardless of board failures or geographical preference. And yes, when you are 29-30 and you are married, going long distance for a few years will usually result in a divorce.

And my point is that almost no USMD would go unmatched if not for red flags and/or their own personal choices. If you know you are going to refuse to move to another city due to a spouse maybe you shouldn't be applying exclusively to plastics where you are limited to 3 highly competitive programs near your area and that's it. Going unmatched in a scenario like this is a completely avoidable risk that one chooses to expose themselves to out of poor planning and insight not because the system was unfair in leaving the candidate unmatched. People who put themselves in such a situation are purveyors of their own undoing.

 

[differentiating]

But....she still matched over another qualified American citizen and that in and of itself is a problem. There is somebody else on the other end who was born and raised in this country and now has 8 years worth of debt and a complete inability to practice medicine. Medical training in whatever country she comes from is most certainly a fraction of the cost, is only 5-6 years in length, and she was likely already working as a doctor before she decided to try and come here. This is what I am trying to draw attention to despite all the bickering and put downs that are plaguing this thread. How can anyone possibly justify this? There would still be spots left for her (if she is truly so special) after every American is placed.

She actually didn’t practice as a physician in her home country. And, again, I disagree that it’s a problem at all. If you choose to go to the Caribbean rather than improve your application for US schools, you chose to take on that debt knowing you had at best a 50% of matching. We shouldn’t turn away highly qualified physicians simply to act as a safety net for US citizens who took risks that didn’t pay off. If anything, this is an argument for closing down Carib schools entirely, since they’re the ones preying on naive pre-meds and placing them in debt to begin with.

I’d pose the reverse question to you: if unmatched IMGs were as qualified as you say they are, why didn’t they match over FMG

Edited to add: I want to be clear: I have nothing against IMGs as individuals, and I hate seeing people go unmatched. I just disagree that this is the way to solve the problem.