Why did you become an intensivist?

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Maybedoc1

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Soon to be 4th year med student (applying to residency in September) really struggling to decide between a couple specialties. One would allow me to pursue critical care (IM) and one where I could not pursue critical care (radiology). I know these are very different fields and I’ve spent many hours of my life trying to decide between them. Both would be ~6 years of training. I love both the ICU and radiology but for different reasons. The rational part of my brain tells me that radiology is probably better although I’m having a very difficult time letting go of the ICU. This is probably med student naivety, but in many ways I feel “called” to the ICU as dumb as that may sound.

My first experience in an ICU was when I was 13 after my mom had had complications during an aneurysm clipping (bilateral ACA strokes and right MCA stroke). 17 years later I still remember going to the ICU to visit her and being simultaneously terrified, but amazed at everything I saw in that room. All the lines, monitors, vitals, etc. I guess that experience stuck with me and is making my decision feel very difficult. I've spent a lot of time shadowing in the ICU and also spent a fair amount of time in the SICU during trauma surgery in my core rotations and enjoyed it a lot.

Anyway I feel that people pursue critical care for different reasons than someone who goes into derm or orthopedics so I’d love to hear why you all chose it.

Thanks!

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Do radiology and make your way into neuroIR, you’ll get a nice mix of imaging, procedures and light clinical work (including some ICU patients). I did critical care because I was already in IM, ended up hating outpatient, liked doing procedures, and liked the flexibility and time off that came along with shift work.

Educate yourself on the negatives of critical care before committing to it: potential for midlevel expansion, more corporate intrusion etc. I think rads is a better option, especially neuroIR, so you can mitigate any potential issues that AI might pose.
 
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Soon to be 4th year med student (applying to residency in September) really struggling to decide between a couple specialties. One would allow me to pursue critical care (IM) and one where I could not pursue critical care (radiology). I know these are very different fields and I’ve spent many hours of my life trying to decide between them. Both would be ~6 years of training. I love both the ICU and radiology but for different reasons. The rational part of my brain tells me that radiology is probably better although I’m having a very difficult time letting go of the ICU. This is probably med student naivety, but in many ways I feel “called” to the ICU as dumb as that may sound.

My first experience in an ICU was when I was 13 after my mom had had complications during an aneurysm clipping (bilateral ACA strokes and right MCA stroke). 17 years later I still remember going to the ICU to visit her and being simultaneously terrified, but amazed at everything I saw in that room. All the lines, monitors, vitals, etc. I guess that experience stuck with me and is making my decision feel very difficult. I've spent a lot of time shadowing in the ICU and also spent a fair amount of time in the SICU during trauma surgery in my core rotations and enjoyed it a lot.

Anyway I feel that people pursue critical care for different reasons than someone who goes into derm or orthopedics so I’d love to hear why you all chose it.

Thanks!

I don't think that this is either naive or dumb.

The most useful thing you can do in life that will help you make decisions big and small is figuring out your core values. Once you figure those out, everything else becomes fairly simple. There are a number of coaching methodologies, including self guided ones, that can help you do that. Thinking back to the most meaningful events of your life, particularly from childhood, is one of those. So you are well on your way there. The next step requires a few more levels of introspection into what exactly made this experience so meaningful.

-Was it because it was your mom that was the patient? Maybe your core value is spending time with family.
-Was it that you saw cutting edge medicine? Maybe your core value is innovation.
-Was it the compassion that the medical professionals showed? Maybe your core value is care.
-Was it the nature of the fight against death? Maybe your core value is preservation of life.

Depending on which it is, will lead you down different paths. If family is your core, then pick the specialty that will allow you to spend more time with them (between the two you mentioned, that would be radiology). If it's innovation, pick the one you are most interested in the unanswered questions of. If your value is care, then I would recommend either critical care or palliative care. If you value is preservation of life, then critical care.

I picked my primary specialty (emergency medicine) after seeing some resuscitations while shadowing. At first I convinced myself that I did not have to do a critical care fellowship and the ER resuscitations were sufficient for me to be fulfilled, though I did feel sad and disgruntled whenever a shift would go by without a good resus. After a coaching session I realized that saving lives was a core value, and instead of spending maybe 5-10% of my time doing critical care, I could go back to training to do a fellowship and bring that number way up. That made the pro/con consideration very easy (prior to that I spent a lot of time thinking how crazy it would be to be giving up the relatively cushy and well paid job I had at the time, as well as the opportunity cost of going back to training (at least a $500k hit in lifetime earnings)). No regrets since. Other than marrying my wife, best decision I ever made.

The thing about core values is that once you figure them out, it's not a matter of being able to stick to them. The only decisions that will feel easy are the ones that let you embrace them more fully. But you do have to figure them out so you don't get distracted by the noise.
 
Do radiology and make your way into neuroIR, you’ll get a nice mix of imaging, procedures and light clinical work (including some ICU patients). I did critical care because I was already in IM, ended up hating outpatient, liked doing procedures, and liked the flexibility and time off that came along with shift work.

Educate yourself on the negatives of critical care before committing to it: potential for midlevel expansion, more corporate intrusion etc. I think rads is a better option, especially neuroIR, so you can mitigate any potential issues that AI might pose.
NeuroIR seems like a great way to take Q3 call for the rest of your life
 
Truly think about what you actually enjoyed during your rotations. If radiology is something you rotated in and you enjoyed the work, then go for it. It’s ok to have a “reason I went into medicine” that is different than what you actually enjoy professionally. For me, I was also between doing radiology/IR and anesthesia/ccm. But when I shadowed radiology, I just didn’t enjoy it. As a med student, I enjoyed playing with the vents and giving my own meds and doing some hands on stuff as well. Looking back I probably would have liked radiology more but I just didn’t understand it enough to appreciate it. Critical care is all about physiology and clinical medicine. I enjoy rounds. I enjoy teaching. I enjoy talking about the next paper being published. It is all very intellectually satisfying. I enjoy being at the bedside getting to know my patients. I really do not mind and actually find family goals of care conversations fulfilling. Although I went into anesthesiology for all the physiology and intellectual things, ccm satisfies the human aspect for me that is more than just personal gratitude.

I think radiology would satisfy a lot of intellectual stimulation and being able to help move along cases. I think being a doctor to the doctor is a huge role. Now after doing what I’ve been doing, I do really think I’d miss seeing the human and emotional aspect as stated above.

I’d also say don’t go into a residency with the intention of doing whatever fellowship. The fellowship is not guaranteed (sadly) and you may be stuck doing hospitalist or whatever. You have to be ok with that. Same with radiology.

I have no regrets at this moment. I found a job I really like which makes a huge difference. The only times I think about radiology is “grass is always greener” type of thinking where I wish I wasn’t dealing with life or death situations in my face everyday, where I bear responsibilities for patient’s lives by my decisions and dealing with emergencies on a daily basis. In radiology, I don’t pretend to know what it’s like or what different stresses there are.
 
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I ended up in ICU because there’s literally nothing I like more than resuscitating a catastrophically sick person. At some point when people are sick enough it becomes like a video game and you’re basically just using your understanding of physiology to bring them back from the dead. Bonus points if you can do this without crapping your pants under pressure.

I originally chose EM for the same reasons, but came to find most of EM is actually dealing with clinically well people and a heavy burden of social issues. Critical care has this too but I found wrangling consultants and having GOC discussions with families in the unit to be far less unpleasant than kicking out the unpleasantly drunk but otherwise well 50yo Karen who is threatening to write angry google reviews about you on line.
 
As an intensivist who trained in emergency medicine and is less than a year out of fellowship working full time ICU at a community hospital, here is my perspective:

Like most people, my medical school rotations were mostly inpatient. I enjoyed everything enough, but was perpetually disappointed by the fact that most of the time patients already had a working diagnosis/plan by the time they were admitted. I did an EM elective during 3rd year and enjoyed the variety, the procedures, and the fact that each patient was a "blank state." Doing the history and physical from scratch was just more satisfying, and made me feel more like a "doctor." As I was applying for residency in fourth year, I did a month in the ICU and enjoyed it, so I kept fellowship in mind.

During residency, like lots of other EM intensivists, I found the critical care to be the most rewarding aspect, but realized that is at most 5-10% of what you do on a day to day basis, and quite often 0%. EM soon lost the "blank slate" appeal and my work ups quickly became very efficient and algorithmic. My medical decision making was a blunt instrument and at the end of the day all I had to decide on was disposition and how to not miss things. So I decided to navigate the quagmire of applying to fellowship as an EM applicant, and ended up doing an internal medicine program. I don't miss EM at all, and the chaos of ICU night shifts (which I fortunately only have to do every couple of months) are more than enough to get the chaos and adrenaline rush of the emergency room.

As to your original question of ICU vs radiology, do you enjoy the more technical or human aspects of medicine? A quote that resonates with me is "Medicine is the most humanistic science and the most scientific humanity," although it falls short in both those realms more often that we would like to admit.

As an ICU doctor, the most satisfying day to day aspect of my work is hearing a patients story (either from them when they can tell it, or their family members), refining a diagnosis, clinical decision making, and helping patients and family's navigate the unpleasantness that comes with hospitalization, critical illness, and/or end of life situations.

I'm perpetually annoyed by all respiratory failure being chalked up to "CHF/COPD/Pneumonia" and treated as such. I love to put my cards on the table and treat the most likely culprit, commit to plan and reassess how the patient responds. I've also undiagnosed COPD and other medical problems that have been perpetuated through the chart, because no one else takes the time to question things (for COPD, its a simple as asking about smoking history, reviewing a chest CT and verifying if PFTs have ever been done). That being said, that's probably more my individual style as a clinician than a reflection of my collective specialty as a whole. My griping may also be applicable to the local culture of the relatively rural hospital at which I work.

The level of detail required to do the job well was intimidating at first, but by now it's easy and I enjoy being thorough and catching things that several other doctors have overlooked.

I'm the doctor that other doctors come to for help, which makes me feel like a highly trained specialist, but I also am a generalist at the end of the day and have to be the one to take full ownership of my patients. The dopamine rush I get when the hospitalist calls me down to help with a rapid response or code blue can be formidable. It's satisfying to show up to a room full of 15-20 people and everyone there recognizes that you're the one in charge. As for procedures, sure they are fun and I will always love intubation, but I could take or leave most lines unless it's in the midst of a "fun" and high-stakes resuscitation. 90% of what I do is think and communicate. Procedures in the ICU can be feast or famine, and there is no guaranteed or steady stream of them, in contrast to IR. I actually consult IR for most of my thoras and paras now, but will do them every once in a while if I think it's best for the patient (such as on the weekend when IR is going to wait until Monday).

As a non-interventional radiologist, my perspective is that your role is much more technical, and there is nothing wrong with that. Your primary role is a consultant, specialist, and proceduralist. Patient and family interactions are quite minimal when compared to those of an intensivist. The IR doctor at my hospital simply copies and pastes my HPI when he writes his consult notes. You for sure will "save the day" and be able to do very cool, necessary, and life-saving things that no one else can, but many of the procedures will be relatively elective/urgent, and very rarely emergent. In my experience, most IR procedures can happen during banking hours. The nature of your work, in my perception, is at the cutting edge of medical progress. Meanwhile in ICU, it's been 20+ years and we still can't decide if steroids work for ARDS. While I love to read new trials and ask questions, a recurring trope in critical care medicine is that every intervention we study ends up making no difference.

Anyway, I've probably missed the boat as by now you have probably made your decision, but this has been a therapeutic exercise for me at the end of a 10 shift stretch, the last 7 of which have been nights (self-imposed).
 
If you want both ICU and neuro-IR, you could also pursue neurology -> neuro-ICU + neuro-IR. This is what I do, and I love my job. But you have to like medical part of neurology for this path and should be aware that it is a long path (8 years in total), though it takes 7-9 years for anyone from any specialty to fully train in neuro-IR these days.
 
Whatever you do, make sure you have another base subspecialty to fall back on or vary things up with. Up to you whether you want it to be pulmonology, anesthesiology or neurology etc. to name some of the more common combinations.

You can, of course, take more unconventional routes as well. I know an interventional cardiologist who did a critical care fellowship to be able to direct a cardiac unit in an academic center. May not be a bad option specially if you want to be at the very cutting edge of what critical care has to offer in terms of mechanical support devices etc.
 
As a non-interventional radiologist, my perspective is that your role is much more technical, and there is nothing wrong with that. Your primary role is a consultant, specialist, and proceduralist. Patient and family interactions are quite minimal when compared to those of an intensivist. The IR doctor at my hospital simply copies and pastes my HPI when he writes his consult notes. You for sure will "save the day" and be able to do very cool, necessary, and life-saving things that no one else can, but many of the procedures will be relatively elective/urgent, and very rarely emergent. In my experience, most IR procedures can happen during banking hours. The nature of your work, in my perception, is at the cutting edge of medical progress.



Surprised that the VIR physician has bankers hours. It may depend on hospital size and local VIR practice and skillsets. If they are part of a radiology group and are not 100 pct VIR with clinics, they probably are forced to read films on days that they are opening.

I would agree there is a great deal of innovation in VIR and that has exploded in the last decade and much of that is elective (spine interventions: spine jack/ basivertebral nerve ablation/ osteocool; MSK interventions (GAE for knee OA; frozen shoulder; plantar fasciitis; hip pain; vehicular nerve ablation); thyroid ablation for thyroid nodules; thyroid artery embolization for goiter; pulmonary AVM treatments; lung tumor ablations; liver and kidney and bone ablations for tumor; PAE for prostates ; UAE for fibroids and so on and so on). Much of this can be done outpatient in an ASC or OBL environment.

But, a lot of VIR is urgent/emergent in the hospital setting. Vascular access and drainage procedures (perforated diverticulitis with drain management; infected necrotizing pancreatitis; cholecystitis too ill for surgery; nephrostomy for infected collecting systems; chest tubes / biliary drains etc ). Bleeding patients (postpartum hemorrhage; epistaxis; hemoptysis; Lower go bleeds; TIPS and BRTO for variceal bleeds; RP bleeds; traumatic bleeds (splenic/renal/liver). Clotting patients (DVT/PE thrombectomy; acute limb ischemia; portomesentlric venous thrombosis ,stroke etc). Then there are the "urgent" renal and liver biopsies and mass biopsies throughout the body that patients get admitted for. Not to mention the non urgent gastrostomy tubes.


interventional call is triaging the bleeders, septic patients, clotting patients and assessing hemodynamic stability and treatment. I do think that ICU is amazing and that pressors come in very handy in the endovascular suites (norepinephrine/ vasopressin/ phenylephrine etc) for our bleeding and septic patients. ICU knowledge for VIR is becoming more and more important as the field continues to evolve from its origins in radiology.
 
As a non-interventional radiologist, my perspective is that your role is much more technical, and there is nothing wrong with that. Your primary role is a consultant, specialist, and proceduralist. Patient and family interactions are quite minimal when compared to those of an intensivist. The IR doctor at my hospital simply copies and pastes my HPI when he writes his consult notes. You for sure will "save the day" and be able to do very cool, necessary, and life-saving things that no one else can, but many of the procedures will be relatively elective/urgent, and very rarely emergent. In my experience, most IR procedures can happen during banking hours. The nature of your work, in my perception, is at the cutting edge of medical progress.



Surprised that the VIR physician has bankers hours. It may depend on hospital size and local VIR practice and skillsets. If they are part of a radiology group and are not 100 pct VIR with clinics, they probably are forced to read films on days that they are opening.

I would agree there is a great deal of innovation in VIR and that has exploded in the last decade and much of that is elective (spine interventions: spine jack/ basivertebral nerve ablation/ osteocool; MSK interventions (GAE for knee OA; frozen shoulder; plantar fasciitis; hip pain; vehicular nerve ablation); thyroid ablation for thyroid nodules; thyroid artery embolization for goiter; pulmonary AVM treatments; lung tumor ablations; liver and kidney and bone ablations for tumor; PAE for prostates ; UAE for fibroids and so on and so on). Much of this can be done outpatient in an ASC or OBL environment.

But, a lot of VIR is urgent/emergent in the hospital setting. Vascular access and drainage procedures (perforated diverticulitis with drain management; infected necrotizing pancreatitis; cholecystitis too ill for surgery; nephrostomy for infected collecting systems; chest tubes / biliary drains etc ). Bleeding patients (postpartum hemorrhage; epistaxis; hemoptysis; Lower go bleeds; TIPS and BRTO for variceal bleeds; RP bleeds; traumatic bleeds (splenic/renal/liver). Clotting patients (DVT/PE thrombectomy; acute limb ischemia; portomesentlric venous thrombosis ,stroke etc). Then there are the "urgent" renal and liver biopsies and mass biopsies throughout the body that patients get admitted for. Not to mention the non urgent gastrostomy tubes.


interventional call is triaging the bleeders, septic patients, clotting patients and assessing hemodynamic stability and treatment. I do think that ICU is amazing and that pressors come in very handy in the endovascular suites (norepinephrine/ vasopressin/ phenylephrine etc) for our bleeding and septic patients. ICU knowledge for VIR is becoming more and more important as the field continues to evolve from its origins in radiology.
Do you think interventional radiology will evolve into its own primary specialty as it becomes more complex?
 
Do you think interventional radiology will evolve into its own primary specialty as it becomes more complex?
It became the 37th primary specialty from abms standpoint in 2012. It is still redefining its training and practice. But , DR and Interventional
are becoming more and more divergent.
 
It became the 37th primary specialty from abms standpoint in 2012. It is still redefining its training and practice. But , DR and Interventional
are becoming more and more divergent.
I guess I mean will it eventually have its own residency instead of being a fellowship of radiology?
 
They matched 202 VIR integrated residents this year directly from medical school
 
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