Why do I keep getting denied?

[MyOdyssey]

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So to go MD/PhD, your main motivation in life is specifically bench research?

1. Tuition free aspect of MD/PhD programs is a huge draw for MD aspirants who have a strong interest in bench research.

2. MD/PhD programs set aside a lot of dedicated time for research - more so than MD programs.

3. A lot of people who otherwise would do a straight PhD bc they want a research career like the comfort of having a MD also just in case their research doesn't pan out. The MD gives them another career option just in case.

 

[jhmmd]

I mean I guess it’s like saying “I want to play college basketball at Duke.” but the only offers I have are from D3 schools and therefore won’t play at all. Don’t let perfection be the enemy of good

Did you mean D3, as in division 3?

 

[jhmmd]

1. Tuition free aspect of MD/PhD programs is a huge draw for MD aspirants who have a strong interest in bench research.

2. MD/PhD programs set aside a lot of dedicated time for research - more so than MD programs.

3. A lot of people who otherwise would do a straight PhD bc they want a research career like the comfort of having a MD also just in case their research doesn't pan out. The MD gives them another career option just in case.

M.D.-Ph.D interviews are tricky. You need to have a solid answer for exactly what you plan to do with this type of degree, since you can do research with either (or neither).

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

M.D.-Ph.D interviews are tricky. You need to have a solid answer for exactly what you plan to do with this type of degree, since you can do research with either (or neither).

Yes division three. Although it’s not a perfect analogy because T10MD only obviously isn’t like the D3 of medical school.

How would one do research for a career without either? Biotech/pharma companies?

 

[jhmmd]

Yes division three. Although it’s not a perfect analogy because T10MD only obviously isn’t like the D3 of medical school.

How would one do research for a career without either? Biotech/pharma companies?

Division 3 basketball is not exactly like T10 med schools, correct
Re: your second point, I don't think it's relevant to the thread

 

[MyOdyssey]

Division 3 basketball is not exactly like T10 med schools, correct
Re: your second point, I don't think it's relevant to the thread

Plenty of people do biomedical research with only a PhD either in academia or with biotech/pharma.

 

[deleted314957]

I second the recommendation of Carle in Champaign-Urbana, IL.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Plenty of people do biomedical research with only a PhD either in academia or with biotech/pharma.

True but the initial post said neither MD nor PhD

 

[Mr.Smile12]

But what if he really likes research?

There are masters degrees.

 

[deleted314957]

There are masters degrees.

In my opinion, if one desires to be a “ professional” researcher at the university or major industry ( think big pharma) level, a PhD is a prerequisite. Masters degrees are pretty useless when it comes to innovating in cutting edge science. I would use the comparison between having an MD only and trying to practice pathology. The PhD is similar to a residency as regards preparation and employment.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

In my opinion, if one desires to be a “ professional” researcher at the university or major industry ( think big pharma) level, a PhD is a prerequisite. Masters degrees are pretty useless when it comes to innovating in cutting edge science. I would use the comparison between having an MD only and trying to practice pathology. The PhD is similar to a residency as regards preparation and employment.

My own experience in this topic... well, I agree to a point. Yes a Ph.D. is really vital for ascending the career ladder, but plenty of technicians work in industry with Master's degrees. So I agree with you that when it comes to getting into more innovative thinking, it helps. No, a residency and a Ph.D. are not really that similar in my opinion, having seen many residents work in my past labs. Sure maybe when it comes to a similar rung on the career ladder/pipeline, but a postdoc is really more like a residency in terms of duration (because some PhD students don't finish after 9 years and settle for the "consolation masters").

You can do pathology as a pathologists' assistant, by the way, and that's a master's degree-bearing health profession. A fair number of job vacancies there.

 

[deleted314957]

My own experience in this topic... well, I agree to a point. Yes a Ph.D. is really vital for ascending the career ladder, but plenty of technicians work in industry with Master's degrees. So I agree with you that when it comes to getting into more innovative thinking, it helps. No, a residency and a Ph.D. are not really that similar in my opinion, having seen many residents work in my past labs. Sure maybe when it comes to a similar rung on the career ladder/pipeline, but a postdoc is really more like a residency in terms of duration (because some PhD students don't finish after 9 years and settle for the "consolation masters").

You can do pathology as a pathologists' assistant, by the way, and that's a master's degree-bearing health profession. A fair number of job vacancies there.

I’m sorry, but you CANNOT practice pathology as a pathologist assistant. I have retired after a 35 year career in pathology, 25 years as department chief and medical director. Pathologist assistants, for all intents and purposes, gross specimens and do administrative activities. Their exposure to diagnostic pathology is minimal. I have NEVER seen a pathologist assistant “sign out” a case. I would even think that is practicing medicine without a license.

 

[allseasons]

Your MCAT is much too low for MD/PhD programs. MD/PhD candidates have the highest MCAT scores around. Think 518+ at least, more likely 520+.

How many hours of research have you done? Is it thousands of hours or the equivalent of at least 2 full years? That's the minimum for MD/PhD.

How does physics research relate to the kind of research you'd do as a MD/PhD candidate? How did you explain that in your essays?

70 clinical hours is way too little for MD programs. It may be too little for DO as well? @Goro?

Your nonclinical volunteering doesn't appear to involve face to face interactions with underserved communities, which is what AdComs (including DO adcoms) like.

40 hours of shadowing is below average. 50 hrs is average.

514 is the average MCAT for MD PhD. Your numbers are only true for top programs.

 

[MyOdyssey]

514 is the average MCAT for MD PhD. Your numbers are only true for top programs.

Being exactly average on an important metric is a hindrance when dealing with programs that routinely reject above average applicants.

 

[allseasons]

Being exactly average on an important metric is a hindrance when dealing with programs that routinely reject above average applicants.

I mean true, but 514 being the average also means that half of all acceptances are below 514 as well. I'm sure OP would get more success from a higher MCAT, but what I'm trying to say is that the MCAT can't be his only issue.

 

[haildotmary]

Hi

Hello! I'm looking for some advice. I applied to 25 schools (18 MD/PhD, 3 MD, 4 DO) in summer 2021 for fall 2022 matriculation. I have 3.91 overall GPA, graduated summa cum laude, and 514 MCAT. I was a physics major, published a first author paper in a physics journal, and started an astronomy club. I also have about 70 clinical volunteer hours (hospice volunteer and ER volunteer), and 100 nonclinical (non-profit data-entry volunteer and tutoring--both for low SES underserved communities). I currently work as a clinical research assistant and I'm working on a clinical first-author paper.....I have about 40 physician shadowing hours and will have 70 total... I have gotten denied from half of my schools so far. I knew my MCAT was low and that I am non-trad because of the heavy physics background but what else can I do to improve my chances? I have just started volunteering to earn more clinical volunteer hours... What else do schools want-- what more should I do?

Hi! I'm in a similar boat as you. I applied to about 13 MSTP, 6 MD, summer 2021 for Fall 2022 matriculation. I have the same GPA and same MCAT. My background is also in Non-Trad research. I can relate to how discouraging it can feel to not understand what else you could do. I'm not sure why I'm replying to OP, other than to say that I resonate with your post, and it was validating to know that I'm not alone.

I don't know if it might help... but one difference between our backgrounds is that I've worked full time as a research assistant since 2019. Last year I was told that the "what more" I could do was "more" research. At the time it made me feel a little better because it was something I could do instead of something I did wrong, or I in someway wasn't enough. I had an advisor at my institution say that their MD/PhD applicants had "five-first author publications" which is absolutely absurd. There are faculty research members I personally know who don't have five-first author publications. I guess it's just a testament to how competitive these applications can get. When I have interviewed in the past there have been so many incredible and impressive people. Not just as applicants, but also as human beings. Individuals who I would love to learn with. It's really amazing.

One of my mentors has served on admission boards (for a completely unrelated discipline) and keeps emphasizing how much admissions are sometimes dependent on totally arbitrary things - such as your application was reviewed before the reviewer had lunch instead of after. I don't know if that holds true for MD/PhD, but it's worth sharing.

All that to say: I relate with your experience, and I look forward to you finding the right program for yourself and for your goals. For me, applications are a crushing process. I look forward to the day when I can look back on applications the way I now look back at taking the MCAT and think, "thank goodness that's over."

EDIT: For what it is worth, I thought my MCAT might be too low for MSTP, but an advisor from the Duke MST Program congratulated me on a great score, and said that it would be a plus for the MD but have less bearing on the MD/PhD application since they care more about research. 🤷‍♀

This is one of my first posts on SDN, so I apologize if I didn't use correct lingo.

 

[haildotmary]

1. Be patient. It's not yet Thanksgiving, so if I'm reading your post right, at least half of the schools you applied to could potentially send you a secondary (remember the LizzyM "Thanksgiving rule").
2. Take a close look at your PS, LoRs, EC descriptions, etc.
3. When did you apply? Even though your stats are great, if you don't apply early this can be a factor, esp. if something else is off
4. Ask your pre-med advisor for tips, if you have one
5. If all else fails, ask the schools that rejected you for feedback during the next application cycle. This is an inside tip that can often get people into medical school (esp. if you were rejected post-interview), e.g. "What can I do to make my application better?" Try to ask open-ended questions.
6. I really don't think the problem is your GPA/MCAT. Don't retake the MCAT. Your MCAT is fine. Often people that take the MCAT again w/a score similar to yours tend to do worse the second time.
7. IF you need to apply again, here's what I would do
a. Apply to more schools
b. Apply to a lot more M.D. schools, not just M.D.-Ph.D programs as these are rather competitive and you do not seem like a "unicorn" type applicant although your stats are great--"unicorns" tend to have these stats PLUS unbelievable outstanding extracurriculars. Not to be harsh but that's just the way it is; you need to beef up your ECs a bit (more volunteer hours, more clinical hours, more shadowing, etc.).
c. Apply to at least ten D.O. schools, since you'll be a re-applicant
d. Come back here and post your school list for input

I wish you the best of luck. 🙂

What's the "Thanksgiving rule"?

 

[jhmmd]

What's the "Thanksgiving rule"?

Don't start worrying about not hearing back from schools until after Thanksgiving.

 

[jhmmd]

The Thanksgiving Rule Revisited

if you have not had any interview anywhere, tomorrow is a good day to give thanks for all the blessings of the past year. Then "Black Friday" is the time to be brutally honest with yourself and examine what it is about your application that made it a non-starter at the schools to which you...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[haildotmary]

Don't start worrying about not hearing back from schools until after Thanksgiving.

Ah, thank you!

 

[deleted314957]

My take on the MD/PhD is that their research interest(s) involve patient interaction/ tx/clinical trials, etc. but most all are, in some way patient centric or patient involvement of some kind. The pure pathology PhD can be found doing non- patient research like “ amoebic cytoskeleton alterations and their effect on rat-tail pathology” when they are not being forced to teach medical students basic Robbins first few chapters- type of pathology.

Academic medical centers are generally thrilled to see true research enthusiasts among their MD only cohort.

 

[MyOdyssey]

My take on the MD/PhD is that their research interest(s) involve patient interaction/ tx/clinical trials, etc. but most all are, in some way patient centric or patient involvement of some kind. The pure pathology PhD can be found doing non- patient research like “ amoebic cytoskeleton alterations and their effect on rat-tail pathology” when they are not being forced to teach medical students basic Robbins first few chapters- type of pathology.

Academic medical centers are generally thrilled to see true research enthusiasts among their MD only cohort.

How are you using academic medical center in your post?

 

[deleted314957]

How are you using academic medical center in your post?

you know, big hospitals,medical school association, interns, residents, fellows. Like on TV.

 

[MyOdyssey]

you know, big hospitals,medical school association, interns, residents, fellows. Like on TV.

Why do academic centers care whether basic science research under their auspices is carried out by MDs or PhDs?

 

[deleted314957]

Why do academic centers care whether basic science research under their auspices is carried out by MDs or PhDs?

From my 40+ year perspective as a NON ACADEMIC I don’t think they care as long as publications and teaching, etc enhance the reputation and grant money and other income that the individual brings to the institution.