Why do people recommend PA to medical students and premeds?

[anbuitachi]

I dont know where you are located, but having hired PA's, NPs in my previous job I know that those are reasonable ranges. Most of my pharm buddies also are in that range.

All my pharm buddies are above that range. Every NP i know of makes vastly more than 50k. The question is are those #s that they choose to work for ? Many NPs work limited days for less pay, same for PA, dentists etc, but it's less common for doctors unless you own a practice.

Those numbers look right to me if you are an employee of a practice.

I meant average. Not specifically employee of practice.

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[libertyyne]

All my pharm buddies are above that range. Every NP i know of makes vastly more than 50k. The question is are those #s that they choose to work for ? Many NPs work limited days for less pay, same for PA, dentists etc, but it's less common for doctors unless you own a practice.


I meant average. Not specifically employee of practice.

Does every NP you know make vastly more than 120? Its a range. The MGMA data agrees with the ranges that were posted regarding NPs and PA's however the optometrist range seems to be up to 200.

 

[anbuitachi]

Does every NP you know make vastly more than 120? Its a range. The MGMA data agrees with the ranges that were posted regarding NPs and PA's however the optometrist range seems to be up to 200.

Yea i know it's a range, but i'm saying the ones i know are all on the high end of that range. Dont know a single 1 even making close to 50k

 

[libertyyne]

Yea i know it's a range, but i'm saying the ones i know are all on the high end of that range. Dont know a single 1 even making close to 50k

I know a few PAs working for the low end of the range 40-50k because they live in PA unfriendly states like KY.

 

[anbuitachi]

I know a few PAs working for the low end of the range 40-50k because they live in PA unfriendly states like KY.

What is pa unfriendly state? They have too many PA over there?

 

[libertyyne]

What is pa unfriendly state? They have too many PA over there?

not having full practice rights, higher burden of oversight etc.

 

[edgerock24]

Lol this thread is so sad. A thread full of misinformation and people with hurt egos..
Someone trying to make a point by showing overlap between a higher end PA school and a DO school (which is one of the lowest you can go to become a doctor..). It's as if other people didn't know there are PAs out there who couldve gotten into med school?

Lol, what does this even mean?

Lol this thread is so sad. A thread full of misinformation and people with hurt egos..
But still many people become PAs because they want to be PAs and couldve gotten into med school too if they put in the requirement/effort for mcat, etc

So, the PA students that go to schools that require no standardized exam (there's many) or have low entrance standards (as another poster said around 50th percentile on the GRE) could easily do well on the MCAT if they wanted to? I don't buy it.

I have nothing against PA's. The ones I've worked with have been great. But it would not be as easy as you are making it out to be for these students to gain admission to an American medical school. Even a "lowly" DO school.

 

[Ho0v-man]

So, the PA students that go to schools that require no standardized exam (there's many) or have low entrance standards (as another poster said around 50th percentile on the GRE) could easily do well on the MCAT if they wanted to? I don't buy it.

I have nothing against PA's. The ones I've worked with have been great. But it would not be as easy as you are making it out to be for these students to gain admission to an American medical school. Even a "lowly" DO school.

Don’t get triggered. There’s no tiers in PA school so it’s not like everyone at the non competitive schools is academically inferior to ones that require GRE/higher gpa couldn’t get in to a “stronger” program. PA applicants choose schools typically for geographical reasons.

There’s almost certainly PAs at every program in the country who could go MD/DO if they wanted to put together the app to do so. Similarly, there’s nurses or any other healthcare field you want to name that could go to med school if they took the time to put together an app to do so. But they didn’t, usually by choice. Instead they’re in a less competitive field that doesn’t require all the BS as ours does.

It seems a lot of us like to think we’re smarter than midlevels, and on a grand scale we overall probably are. But I feel like an idiot for not going to PA school every day!

 

[edgerock24]

Don’t get triggered. There’s no tiers in PA school so it’s not like everyone at the non competitive schools is academically inferior to ones that require GRE/higher gpa couldn’t get in to a “stronger” program. PA applicants choose schools typically for geographical reasons.

There’s almost certainly PAs at every program in the country who could go MD/DO if they wanted to put together the app to do so. Similarly, there’s nurses or any other healthcare field you want to name that could go to med school if they took the time to put together an app to do so. But they didn’t, usually by choice. Instead they’re in a less competitive field that doesn’t require all the BS as ours does.

It seems a lot of us like to think we’re smarter than midlevels, and on a grand scale we overall probably are. But I feel like an idiot for not going to PA school every day!

Sounds like you'd prefer to be submissive to PA's/nurses. 50 Shades of Ho0v-man.

 

[libertyyne]

Sounds like you'd prefer to be submissive to PA's/nurses. 50 Shades of Ho0v-man.

 

[edgerock24]

 

[HelpMeFailedStep1]

Not a med student, but an M0 that had PA as a plan B to shoot for. I can tell you that my reasoning was that PA school is still a very competitive and successful career, but not quite as competitive as medical school. For example, my state has 1 MD and 1 DO programs, and 3 PA programs. Just based off number of applicants and acceptances, it’s not as competitive, although from reading it seems that PA programs want to see full time health care employment. PA programs also don’t require the MCAT, which is often times the last remaining hurdle for solid pre-meds. Research is also not a pseudo-requirement like at many MD schools.

Im sorry but your thoughts on PA programs is SOOOOO Far from the truth it hurts

Most PA programs accept bw 15-40 AT MOST students

Most PA programs require THOUSANDS (1500+) to even apply

MCAT is DEFINITELY required in the majority of PA programs and if not MCAT then GRE, even passing Step 1 and Step 2 wont give you a competitive advantage at least thats what all my US IMG friends who didnt match are facing right now. They are ECFMG certified and can not get into PA school

PA is EXTREMELY more difficult to get into then medical school bc your grades have to be just as good as any pre-med student and you are applying to a school that has 10% of spots as a medical school

Look it up, PA and even Pharmacy programs are often harder by sheer % of applicants and accepted students than many medical schools even newer ones

 

[ERDOC555]

Im sorry but your thoughts on PA programs is SOOOOO Far from the truth it hurts

Most PA programs accept bw 15-40 AT MOST students

Most PA programs require THOUSANDS (1500+) to even apply

MCAT is DEFINITELY required in the majority of PA programs and if not MCAT then GRE, even passing Step 1 and Step 2 wont give you a competitive advantage at least thats what all my US IMG friends who didnt match are facing right now. They are ECFMG certified and can not get into PA school

PA is EXTREMELY more difficult to get into then medical school bc your grades have to be just as good as any pre-med student and you are applying to a school that has 10% of spots as a medical school

Look it up, PA and even Pharmacy programs are often harder by sheer % of applicants and accepted students than many medical schools even newer ones

You are so misinformed it's actually kind of sad. I'm not sure where to even start with this post...

 

[HelpMeFailedStep1]

You are so misinformed it's actually kind of sad. I'm not sure where to even start with this post...

Never said it was easy to get into medical school but their acceptance rates are higher than PA and thats a known fact. Combine that with the fact that MOST medical schools dont REQUIRE 1000+ clinical hours JUST TO apply, one would think that it is harder to get into PA school if LETS SAY you are not competitive enough to get into med school to begin with.

The GPA to GET INTO PA schools is lower than medical schools but not by much...going by sheer stats acceptance rates for PA ARE lower than medical schools.

Now if the same person were to apply to med and PA school im sure they would have a better shot at getting into the PA school if they think their app is competitive enough to get into med school in the first place.

Btw you mention PA do not need to take the MCAT, yet a great majority of the PA programs either require MCAT or the GRE just to apply. Guess we should just eliminate those programs for the sake of your argument right?

But please dont sit here and pretend that 30-50% of students who apply to PA schools get in.

Go look at some of even the NON-competitive PA programs, it will say under Admission Requirements SHADOWING AND VOLUNTEERING does NOT count as your clinical hours. They want you working under a PA directly for over 1000 hours and thats the BARE MINIMUM required to even apply

So what is kind of sad about my post?

Instead of insulting me why dont u list some of the reasons i am wrong. Type #1-10 on your laptop if you are so informed and please let me know how wrong i am despite knowing TONS of PA's who also had dreams of med school before entering PA school.

Admissions Statistics | Physician Assistant Program

Here are some stats from Boston U PA program:
2000 applied
31 accepted
1.5% acceptance rate

I am PRETTY sure that medical school acceptance rates are higher than 1%, right?

So sad you have some kleenex?

 

[Professional Student]

Most PA programs accept bw 15-40 AT MOST students

True, actually.

Most PA programs require THOUSANDS (1500+) *of clinical hours* to even apply

Corrected your writing on this one. So what? You’re talking about 6-9 months of full time work as a CNA/phlebotomist/ER tech/hospice worker, all of which just take a few weeks to get become certified.

MCAT is DEFINITELY required in the majority of PA programs and if not MCAT then GRE

MCAT is accepted at only a few programs, and I don’t believe it’s required at any. Calling the GRE very difficult is like calling your grandma hot. It’s just plain wrong and make everyone feel awkward.

even passing Step 1 and Step 2 wont give you a competitive advantage

Why would it? Those are the licensing tests for another degree. This means that to apply to PA school with passes on these tests, you would have either had to fail out of medical school or obtain an international degree and no residency. Both situations are not at all attractive for future applications.

PA is EXTREMELY more difficult to get into then medical school

Let’s reword what you just said. “The master’s program yielding a degree that is an assistant to the doctoral program with 1/3 the salary is EXTREMELY more difficult to get into than the doctoral program with 3 times the salary and complete independence.”

your grades have to be just as good as any pre-med student

Let me quote a famous US president: “WRONG.” (Sorry, couldn’t help it.)

you are applying to a school that has 10% of spots as a medical school

And also less than 10% of the applicants. There are 219 PA schools, most of which are large state schools, regional public schools, or small private schools. Only the PA schools attached to nationally elite universities are receiving thousands of applications, like you quoted for BU. For around 175/219, they are receiving a few hundred applications from students that want to work in the area because of health care shortage.

Like I said in my original post, PA school was my backup for medical school because it is not nearly as competitive while still being competitive. It is a good field with good pay with less school/training time than becoming a doctor.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Never said it was easy to get into medical school but their acceptance rates are higher than PA and thats a known fact. Combine that with the fact that MOST medical schools dont REQUIRE 1000+ clinical hours JUST TO apply, one would think that it is harder to get into PA school if LETS SAY you are not competitive enough to get into med school to begin with.

The GPA to GET INTO PA schools is lower than medical schools but not by much...going by sheer stats acceptance rates for PA ARE lower than medical schools.

Now if the same person were to apply to med and PA school im sure they would have a better shot at getting into the PA school if they think their app is competitive enough to get into med school in the first place.

Btw you mention PA do not need to take the MCAT, yet a great majority of the PA programs either require MCAT or the GRE just to apply. Guess we should just eliminate those programs for the sake of your argument right?

But please dont sit here and pretend that 30-50% of students who apply to PA schools get in.

Go look at some of even the NON-competitive PA programs, it will say under Admission Requirements SHADOWING AND VOLUNTEERING does NOT count as your clinical hours. They want you working under a PA directly for over 1000 hours and thats the BARE MINIMUM required to even apply

So what is kind of sad about my post?

Instead of insulting me why dont u list some of the reasons i am wrong. Type #1-10 on your laptop if you are so informed and please let me know how wrong i am despite knowing TONS of PA's who also had dreams of med school before entering PA school.

Admissions Statistics | Physician Assistant Program

Here are some stats from Boston U PA program:
2000 applied
31 accepted
1.5% acceptance rate

I am PRETTY sure that medical school acceptance rates are higher than 1%, right?

So sad you have some kleenex?

You posted a link to a program that does not accept the mcat, and has lower gpas than us MD average and likely lower than most DO school averages. You literally proved the point others were trying to make and you’re so arrogant you don’t even realize what you’ve done.

While the “majority” of PA programs do require a standardized exam of some kind,it’s a pretty small majority. Like 53% or something.

 

[W19]

acceptance rate =/= competitiveness

Drexel school of medicine acceptance rate is <3%, but that does not mean it's more difficult to get into Drexel than U. of Pittsburgh.

 

[W19]

MCAT is accepted at only a few programs, and I don’t believe it’s required at any. Calling the GRE very difficult is like calling your grandma hot. It’s just plain wrong and make everyone feel awkward.

Lol...

 

[68PGunner]

True, actually.

Corrected your writing on this one. So what? You’re talking about 6-9 months of full time work as a CNA/phlebotomist/ER tech/hospice worker, all of which just take a few weeks to get become certified.

MCAT is accepted at only a few programs, and I don’t believe it’s required at any. Calling the GRE very difficult is like calling your grandma hot. It’s just plain wrong and make everyone feel awkward.

Why would it? Those are the licensing tests for another degree. This means that to apply to PA school with passes on these tests, you would have either had to fail out of medical school or obtain an international degree and no residency. Both situations are not at all attractive for future applications.

Let’s reword what you just said. “The master’s program yielding a degree that is an assistant to the doctoral program with 1/3 the salary is EXTREMELY more difficult to get into than the doctoral program with 3 times the salary and complete independence.”

Let me quote a famous US president: “WRONG.” (Sorry, couldn’t help it.)

And also less than 10% of the applicants. There are 219 PA schools, most of which are large state schools, regional public schools, or small private schools. Only the PA schools attached to nationally elite universities are receiving thousands of applications, like you quoted for BU. For around 175/219, they are receiving a few hundred applications from students that want to work in the area because of health care shortage.

Like I said in my original post, PA school was my backup for medical school because it is not nearly as competitive while still being competitive. It is a good field with good pay with less school/training time than becoming a doctor.

You have done well for your initiation post to the MD forum.

 

[Jdp00921]

So sad you have some kleenex?

This did really make me laugh though haha!

 

[moisne]

PA is EXTREMELY more difficult to get into then medical school bc your grades have to be just as good as any pre-med student and you are applying to a school that has 10% of spots as a medical school

Here is my guess:
1. From your name - you failed step 1... dropped out and applied to PA
2. You are suffering from inferiority complex now.

PA is a great career and plenty of people would be happy (if not happier) with that route. But this is similar to CRNA's saying they are equivalent to anesthesiologist.

Like someone said - I've yet to hear a case of a PA failed out/drop out getting into med school but you appear to be a Med student who is now going to apply/go to PA school.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Professional Student]

Lmao I cannot believe people say M0 cringe

Just a term I picked up on here and thought might be the normal lingo and accurate. You’ll get over it, dude.

 

[calivianya]

Look at these forums. People left and right tell others to focus on their grades to the exclusion of all else here, even if it means quitting work/research/ECs. That's a COMMON thing to tell MD applicants - just saw that very piece of advice in a thread currently within the top few threads on this forum. So, what are the PA school requirements, again? Oh, they like full time work experience... i.e. you can't just ride on mommy and daddy's money or student loans, you actually have to work a real job for full time hours?

I'm going to say I bet many PA students/applicants could have been MD applicants... if the conditions were the same. I think most people could do well on the hard sciences and MCAT if they didn't have to work. I'd also say that the opposite situation is true - that if many MD students/applicants had to work full time in healthcare while they were taking their med school prereqs and trying to study for the MCAT, that their GPAs might look a little more like PA applicant GPAs.

It's pointless to compare the pools. In general, they have totally different life experiences. MCAT and GPA are not the great equalizers when you have a majority of people with jobs in one pool vs. a majority of traditional students with no major responsibilities in the other.

 

[Gray Fox]

Look at these forums. People left and right tell others to focus on their grades to the exclusion of all else here, even if it means quitting work/research/ECs. That's a COMMON thing to tell MD applicants - just saw that very piece of advice in a thread currently within the top few threads on this forum. So, what are the PA school requirements, again? Oh, they like full time work experience... i.e. you can't just ride on mommy and daddy's money or student loans, you actually have to work a real job for full time hours?

I'm going to say I bet many PA students/applicants could have been MD applicants... if the conditions were the same. I think most people could do well on the hard sciences and MCAT if they didn't have to work. I'd also say that the opposite situation is true - that if many MD students/applicants had to work full time in healthcare while they were taking their med school prereqs and trying to study for the MCAT, that their GPAs might look a little more like PA applicant GPAs.

It's pointless to compare the pools. In general, they have totally different life experiences. MCAT and GPA are not the great equalizers when you have a majority of people with jobs in one pool vs. a majority of traditional students with no major responsibilities in the other.

Brroooooooooo, wut r u talking about??
I am poor as dirt. I wish there was a poooo emoji so i could visually equate my assets. Errday i wish i could ride on mommy and daddy's money train, but i wake up to no train, only the struggle bus. A good # of my homies are on the financial struggle bus, and dats the only ride we know dawg. On avg, med students are well to do (see median family income), but i've met a crap load of rich, well to do PA students. Get out of here with your poopie overgeneralizations..

 

[HelpMeFailedStep1]

Here is my guess:
1. From your name - you failed step 1... dropped out and applied to PA
2. You are suffering from inferiority complex now.

PA is a great career and plenty of people would be happy (if not happier) with that route. But this is similar to CRNA's saying they are equivalent to anesthesiologist.

Like someone said - I've yet to hear a case of a PA failed out/drop out getting into med school but you appear to be a Med student who is now going to apply/go to PA school.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

I never applied to PA programs knowing that I would have a terrible chance to get in despite over 1500 clinical hours (non shadowing, volunteer)

I never said PA or DNP is a bad career, heck Pharmacy is just as good as field but it all comes down to years of education

- PA - 2 years of intensive work
- DNP - 1 year accelerated BSN + 3 years working as an RN + 4 years to complete the DNP program while working putting the total at 5 years
- Pharmacy - low job prospects without getting into a mid tier pharmacy school, again i would have to attend pharm school for 4 years plus a residency year where matching from many schools is around 50-60% (know this from a pharmacist who graduated from a decent to better than average pharm school

I personally know PAs, DNPs, and Pharmacists and they area all satisfied with your job

Not understanding what the purpose of your post is, i clearly stated that the competitiveness of the PA programs is very difficult esp when coming from medical school.

With my Step 1 passing score I have been offered a spot in a few PA schools that do not exactly have a great reputation.

But yeh i have an inferiority complex you got it boss!

 

[calivianya]

Brroooooooooo, wut r u talking about??
I am poor as dirt. I wish there was a poooo emoji so i could visually equate my assets. Errday i wish i could ride on mommy and daddy's money train, but i wake up to no train, only the struggle bus. A good # of my homies are on the financial struggle bus, and dats the only ride we know dawg. On avg, med students are well to do (see median family income), but i've met a crap load of rich, well to do PA students. Get out of here with your poopie overgeneralizations..

All we have are means and medians; so all we can compare are said overgeneralizations.

I'm older than most MD/DO applicants and I worked full time all through the prerequisites, so I'm an outlier myself... but it's impossible to look at each individual person's situation when making comparisons between two applicant pools. You have to work with the data you have.

All you have to do to look any school up on the MSAR to see what low, on average (yes, generalization) amounts of paid clinical experience MD schools expect. For plenty of top tier MD schools, the percent of matriculants with paid clinical experience is under 30%. Even my MD state schools, who supposedly like paid healthcare experience, are still under 60% for matriculants with paid clinical experience. I have yet to find a school that really emphasizes working in healthcare vs. just having clinical exposure of some type. That would not fly for PA schools.

 

[rg2o3]

All we have are means and medians; so all we can compare are said overgeneralizations.

I'm older than most MD/DO applicants and I worked full time all through the prerequisites, so I'm an outlier myself... but it's impossible to look at each individual person's situation when making comparisons between two applicant pools. You have to work with the data you have.

All you have to do to look any school up on the MSAR to see what low, on average (yes, generalization) amounts of paid clinical experience MD schools expect. For plenty of top tier MD schools, the percent of matriculants with paid clinical experience is under 30%. Even my MD state schools, who supposedly like paid healthcare experience, are still under 60% for matriculants with paid clinical experience. I have yet to find a school that really emphasizes working in healthcare vs. just having clinical exposure of some type. That would not fly for PA schools.

Every PA school in my area (3) and including the one at my undergrad institution does not require paid clinical experience. Just clinical experience. Honestly not even much. WAY less than what I had for my med school apps.

 

[Jdp00921]

I think the OP was just asking a question he felt was legitimate. So many threads on SDN turn into p*ssing contests...

 

[ERDOC555]

With my Step 1 passing score I have been offered a spot in a few PA schools that do not exactly have a great reputation.

I think you really shot yourself in the foot here...

You admit that you (someone who won't have the opportunity to be a doctor in the US, couldn't finish medical school, failed step 1 once, and barely passed on the second attempt) have been offered a spot in "a few PA schools".

Clearly we've seen that even those who are at the very bottom of the med school class can easily make it into a PA program. Imagine how great of PA applicants the middle of the road medical school students would be?

Sorry, but while PA school is certainly not a joke to get into, it's also not something that can't be done with a modest time commitment and a slightly above average intelligence.

By the way, some McDonalds have lower acceptance rates than Harvard and Stanford. Let's not pretend for a second it's harder to get into McDonalds than a top 10 college, which is the bulk of your argument that PA is harder or equal to MD to get into.

 

[calivianya]

Every PA school in my area (3) and including the one at my undergrad institution does not require paid clinical experience. Just clinical experience. Honestly not even much. WAY less than what I had for my med school apps.

That's interesting. The ones near me that I just looked at the website for all say 1,000+ hours... with one having the caveat that successful applicants in the past had between 1,000-25,000 hours of patient contact. I guess this is also regional.

 

[rg2o3]

That's interesting. The ones near me that I just looked at the website for all say 1,000+ hours... with one having the caveat that successful applicants in the past had between 1,000-25,000 hours of patient contact. I guess this is also regional.

Yeah. I’m sure there is a huge variance.

 

[Insert Member Name Here]

While we're on this topic, it's also interesting to think that, just based on pure probability, the human with the highest IQ in history was probably not one of the famous geniuses you read about (Einsein, Newton, Da Vinci, etc.) but more likely some farmer in rural China who died in utter obscurity.

Probability is as pure as a hooker attending Christmas Mass because a priest paid her off to attend to his needs.

 

[chasm-e-baddoor]

When we were preparing to apply for med school, my friend got a 24 on his MCAT and didnt even bother applying to MD or DO schools because he only had a 3.6 GPA and was too lazy to retake MCAT.

He instead applied to PA schools, got in with small scholarship. Now he's working as a PA making 96k/year working 36 hrs a week with almost no debt and traveling the world during his free time, while I am slogging away with 240k debt and no income and fighting for a position to get the equivalent of a taco bell wage at some hospital for 3 stressful years

 

[HelpMeFailedStep1]

When we were preparing to apply for med school, my friend got a 24 on his MCAT and didnt even bother applying to MD or DO schools because he only had a 3.6 GPA and was too lazy to retake MCAT.

He instead applied to PA schools, got in with small scholarship. Now he's working as a PA making 96k/year working 36 hrs a week with almost no debt and traveling the world during his free time, while I am slogging away with 240k debt and no income and fighting for a position to get the equivalent of a taco bell wage at some hospital for 3 stressful years

No doubt about it if i had a chance to go to a PA school i would take it but two huge hurdles stand in my way:

1. fact i withdrew from a us md school
2. i dont even have CLOSE to the recommended 1000-2000+ hours of medical work experience or even any shadowing of a PA

 

[W19]

No doubt about it if i had a chance to go to a PA school i would take it but two huge hurdles stand in my way:

1. fact i withdrew from a us md school
2. i dont even have CLOSE to the recommended 1000-2000+ hours of medical work experience or even any shadowing of a PA

These are easy things to have in <1 year

 

[HelpMeFailedStep1]

.

 

[W19]

I don't know about PA school but it is not difficult to get into A pharmacy school... Pharm school admission standards have decreased dramatically in the last 7 years...

Not trying to be mean here, but I am starting to question your claim that you were a US MD student... You have said so many wrong things in this thread...

 

[HelpMeFailedStep1]

Also someone else was braggin about how many PA programs there are in America (over 200), the problem is ACCREDIATION

"In the past, the NCCPA allowed graduates to sit for the PANCE exam as long as the program from which they graduated was accredited at any point during the students’ enrollment. This policy changed in 2003 and in order to be eligible to take the PANCE, students must successfully complete a program that was accredited at the time the student matriculated. It is best to check with the NCCPA concerning exam eligibility criteria."

So yeh go right ahead and enter a program that is awaiting accreditation or on probation then roll the dice that by the time you graduate you are allowed to sit for the PANCE

 

[HelpMeFailedStep1]

I don't know about PA school but it is not difficult to get into A pharmacy school... Pharm school admission standards have decreased dramatically in the last 7 years...

Not trying to be mean here, but I am starting to question your claim that you were a US MD student... You have said so many wrong things in this thread...

Pharm school admission standards have decreased dramatically in the last 7 years but are still higher than nursing and slightly lower than PA standards

When you say dramatically decreased, before a 3.5-3.8 would at least make you somewhat of a competitive applicant with a decent PCAT score. How much has it dramatically decreased? Are they taking students with a 3.0 and crap PCAT score now? Very well could be as all these for profit diploma mills like Rosaline Franklin are popping up. But to say that the standards of accredited well known pharm schools have dramatically decreased is FAR from the truth.

The problem, however, unlike nursing or PA school, is the QUALITY of the program.

To get a job in an oversaturated market you need to complete at least 1 year of pharmacy residency. If you come from a crap school, you simply will not get a residency or a job and be sitting on your butt for years even struggling to get into a retail position

 

[W19]

People are getting into pharm school with 3.2 c/sGPA and 30+ percentile PCAT... If you are talking about good program, that is another story.

You are not going to tell me anything about nursing (RN/NP/DNP) that I do not know. I was (or am) a nurse who looked into NP/DNP and decided against...

 

[HelpMeFailedStep1]

You posted a link to a program that does not accept the mcat, and has lower gpas than us MD average and likely lower than most DO school averages. You literally proved the point others were trying to make and you’re so arrogant you don’t even realize what you’ve done.

While the “majority” of PA programs do require a standardized exam of some kind,it’s a pretty small majority. Like 53% or something.

Of those other 50% how many of those programs are fully accredited (not working towards accreditation or on probation)?

This is not like going to a crap undergrad/nursing school with a guarantee to get your degree. If your PA program does not fill the accreditation guidelines you simply can NOT sit for the PANCE and then what are you going to do?

 

[HelpMeFailedStep1]

People are getting into pharm school with 3.2 c/sGPA and 30+ percentile PCAT... If you are talking about good program, that is another story.

You are not going to tell me anything about nursing (RN/NP/DNP) that I do not know. I was (or am) a nurse who looked into NP/DNP and decided against...

Quality of a pharm program is super important that's why the good schools have maintained their high standards of admissions. Diploma mills dont care if you find a job or not they want your cash. Go look up Rosalind Franklin or whatever that pharm school is in Nevada, you need a 90% on ALL of your block exams, which you take on a Friday. If you are not able to get a 90% you have another chance to get a 90% on Monday and if not you will remediate the course. Since you went to nursing school Im pretty sure you understand getting a 90% on EVERY SINGLE block exam is no easy task.

If you go to a crap pharm school then your chances to get a residency are horrible. Look at the match results for last year. 49-51% of applicants matched. Wtf are the rest of them doing? Think CVS will take a pharmacist who failed to match and complete a residency year over someone who matched and finished up. Not everyone wants to work in retail either. You think a hospital will employ a pharmacist that couldnt match over one that has completed residency?

And what exactly am i telling you about nursing that you dont know?

Nursing is the easiest of all the fields (PA, Dentistry, Podiatry, Pharmacy, Medical School) to get into, thats a fact sorry if you are a nurse and are offended by this but comparing acceptance standards of nursing schools to the aforementioned schools is a joke at best.

Also now states and hospitals want DNPs NOT NPs.

"No. Nurse practitioners who are currently practicing will not need to get a DNPdegree. When state laws are changed requiring the DNP for advanced nursing practice, they will be written in such a way that NP's certified and licensed before the transition will not need to get any additional training."

Im pretty sure it would be in a nursing students best interest to get a DNP over an NP to again make them more competitive when applying for jobs that they want. That is of course if they dont care where they work.

Not sure exactly what i told you about nursing and nursing schools is new info for you or anyone else

Also you can question me as a former US MD student that isnt being mean. **** doesnt work out for everyone. Ive done extensive research into a career change to pharm/pa/podiatry even dentistry, combine that research with real life personal experience from peers in my undergrad program, getting into a solid accredited pharm and PA school is not easy AT ALL, and sure as heck not as easy as some are making it out to seem.

 

[W19]

I know nursing is not what it was when I attended nursing school... Things have gone so horribly wrong in an attempt to remedy the 'nursing shortage', which no longer exist in the state of FL. However, you still have private schools that are handing out diploma like candy.

Maybe you should look into pod school since I heard admission standards are not as rigorous as MD/DO or even PA school.

 

[HelpMeFailedStep1]

I know nursing is not what it was when I attended nursing school... Things have gone so horribly wrong in an attempt to remedy the 'nursing shortage', which no longer exist in the state of FL...But you still have private schools that are handing out diploma like candy.

Maybe you should look into pod school since I heard admission standards are not as rigorous as MD/DO or even PA school.

There will always be private diploma mills with absurd attrition rates, in fact this is growing as more business minded individuals realize they can con desperate undergrad students who cant get in anywhere else

Going back to the PA discussion, I based my research on the official reports released same goes with pharmacy
http://paeaonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/ProgramReport32_2017_2.pdf

There is a link to the most recent program report for PA schools, again not completely comprehensive but it is the OFFICIAL report

I have looked into going to podiatry schools unfortunately with my past attendance at a US Med schools most schools wont look at me since they assume that podiatry (or PA/Pharm) is not my true passion but instead simply a last ditch effort to get a job in a clinically related field that pays well

 

[HelpMeFailedStep1]

My posts here arent for discouragement they are for providing factual information

Anyone can paint a picture of HOW EASY it is to get into pharm and PA schools but there are caveats to those kind of statements as we have discussed such as quality of school, accreditation, and future employment prospects.

Im not here trying to insult any profession in the health field. I am trying to forewarn those who are reading these threads that it isnt all cake and candy like others make it out to seem.

You should see how hard a radiation tech needs to work and study just to get their job, or a dosimetrist, or a cardiac perfusionist. Things are getting harder not easier and yet people (not saying you specifically) seem to reject this idea

 

[rg2o3]

Yes getting hours is not a problem, either is shadowing or working with a PA

The problem is that PA programs are notoriously difficult to get into (despite what people spout on SDN) the numbers do not lie

So when they see someone who is trying to apply as a PA who left medical school they will think to themselves, "well this POS couldnt hack it in regular medicine who is to say he is going to be able to do well in a condensed two year program at their PA program"

Combine that with my older age, my application has now been thrown to the bottom of the pile.

A few posts above there is a guy talking about his friend who got a 24 on his MCAT and a 3.6 GPA was too "lazy" to simply retake the MCAT and just walked right into PA school and on top of it with a scholarship

I have known people who have graduated from Purdue and University of Michigan (im not sure if that poster's friend went to Harvard for undergrad) but they had high GPA and a solid MCAT score and could secure a spot in ANY Pa schools let alone with a scholarship. Do you think they quit? No. They tried to retake the MCAT, added more clinical hours, and they STILL were rejected. Now some are working as rad techs, phlebs, dosimetrists, etc. because they simply have no other choice.

So maybe PA schools are not MORE difficult to get into compared to medical schools, but just as difficult to get into as a pharmacy school for example.

Anyone can walk into a nursing school with a subpar GPA (even at a good university), get accepted, and get a partial scholarship. But nursing is not PA school.

I guess take everything said on here with a grain of salt. I thought Reddit was bad, I wish I can share some of the nasty PMs i have received regarding my situation on SDN. Some of these people are talking straight out of their butts.

Would I like to go to PA school if i had a chance yes? But I would have to get a great clinical job, find a PA through the university whom i can make connections with for a solid LOR, and most importantly either retake the MCAT or take the GRE and do extremely well in it.

Just want to add a funny quote from an earlier poster in this thread "Let's not pretend PA schools are difficult to get into for someone who is willing to put in moderate time commitment and have an above average intelligence"

This has to be one of the stupidest comments I have read in my life. I know PERSONALLY like i mentioned people who have dedicated their undergraduate studies to becoming a PA just like those who have their minds set on med or pharm schools. And despite good scores and a better than average GPA, they simply can NOT get in. Why are they and their friends sitting at home or working low paying clinical jobs when anyone with an above average intelligence could get into a PA program? Makes it sound like anyone with a pulse can just walk in and say "HEY IM READY TO GO LETS GET STARTED" at any PA school and this is the FURTHEST from the truth.

Regardless of my own life, I am trying to provide people on here with an honest observation of my own peers and friends who have tried and failed to get into PA school and ended up settling for lower paying clinical jobs. And these are not the 1% either, just look at the class sizes for some of these PA programs some are 20-25. How many people are applying 50?

Lol man idk what PA schools you’re applying to, but if you come to my area, it’s not that hard to get into and require WAY less patient contact hours than you suggest. My undergrad institution has a PA program. My roommate is an older student (32) in the PA program. I also know around 50 students in the program. The ones around here are not that difficult to get into. Maybe broaden the regions in which you’d be willing to apply.

Edit: there are 3 in my region all of which have similar requirements. Also not implying that it’s an “easy” task to get accepted.

 

[moisne]

With my Step 1 passing score I have been offered a spot in a few PA schools that do not exactly have a great reputation.

No doubt about it if i had a chance to go to a PA school i would take it but two huge hurdles stand in my way:

huh? lol

 

[HelpMeFailedStep1]

huh? lol

The PA schools i have been offered spots are not fully accredited. One is under probation and the other is pending accreditation.

If their accreditation wasnt up in the air i would go now, but im not gonna risk another 2 years not to sit for the PANCE bc my school didnt get the accreditation

Otherwise the accredited PA schools wont look at me bc i went to a us med school

I dont understand what the **** is the issue here? I base my research on official reports for matching for pharm and provided hard stats with a link, you can look up which PA programs are easy to get into and then see they are not accredited or pending accreditation. It's not a mystery why some schools let anyone in and others take 20-30 students total.

Im out on this thread good luck to all that are trying to get into Pharm/PA/Podiatry schools, god speed

 

[Strider_91]

https://keck.usc.edu/physician-assistant-program/admission/selection-criteria/
So you are telling me that pool couldnt get into
http://osteopathic.nova.edu/forms/com-fact-sheet-2014.pdf

A 27 on the mcat and 3.3 science gpa is a joke.
If nova accepts students with that they too are a joke.
This is leaps and bounds easier than MD acceptance.

 

[libertyyne]

A 27 on the mcat and 3.3 science gpa is a joke.
If nova accepts students with that they too are a joke.
This is leaps and bounds easier than MD acceptance.

27and 502was the mean for ALL DO schools.