Why don't physicians unionize?

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AustinL911

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I tried a search but didn't come up with much.

I often read and hear about how physicans are constantly getting more flack, less and less pay, and are generally treated more and more poorly everyday, despite their immense role in society. I often think, how screwed would this country be if they all went on strike for just a day? So my question is, why don't they? Besides the whole hippocratic oath thing...

I would think just a day would be enough to shock this country into showing a little more appreciation towards them. I mean, I'm all for the central idea of helping people out as much as I possibly can, but there's got to be a point where they stand together and say, enough is enough.

Thoughts?
 
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Someone just posted in the allo forums about UCD neurosurgeons getting sued and being forced to resign for doing an experimental procedure on some patients with a terminal illness and while reading about it the whole time I was thinking about how good scientists had it in Bioshock (a video game based on Ayn Rand's ideas - the first one anyways, not the ****ty recent one).
 
Doctors are way too busy taking tests and saving people's lives to care about things like the future of their occupation and what the public thinks of them.
 
Last time I worked at a union shop they forced me to pay dues but only cared about their own pensions while throwing young people and new employees under the bus. I'm glad I won't have to worry about that.
 
I believe that according to US federal law, physicians are not allowed to unionize, although maybe that only applies to residents.

Still, there's an obvious ethical issue at play. Even if physicians could unionize, they couldn't go on strikes without indirectly murdering untold numbers of patients. Even assuming most physicians would somehow be okay with that, the public wouldn't be. One of the reasons physicians catch so much flack right now is because the public thinks they're rich and the main source of healthcare costs. The last thing you would want to do as a physician is to encourage the perception that doctors are only in it for the money.

What we really need is for physicians to make their case better to the public. Right now no one is hearing the physicians' side of things.
 
I tried a search but didn't come up with much.

Self-employed physicians cannot unionize because it would lead to monopolistic business practices, collusion, and price fixing.

Also, if you approach your average man on the street and try to tell him how bad we got it and how little we are appreciated, he will likely punch you in the abdomen so hard that you will throw up on your shoes.
 
I remember reading that physicians can't unionize because most hold managerial level positions (i.e. sole practice or in charge of employees in a hospital). If they were mostly holding employee level positions in hospitals, then there is a high chance they would unionize. (Some people on the forums have given examples in the past of doctor unions)
 
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The American Medical Association is considered by some to be the most powerful union in the history of the United States. It is the root cause of why physician salaries are so much higher than many other professions in the US and why physician salaries are higher than every other nation in the world.
 
i believe that according to us federal law, physicians are not allowed to unionize, although maybe that only applies to residents.

Still, there's an obvious ethical issue at play. Even if physicians could unionize, they couldn't go on strikes without indirectly murdering untold numbers of patients. Even assuming most physicians would somehow be okay with that, the public wouldn't be. One of the reasons physicians catch so much flack right now is because the public thinks they're rich and the main source of healthcare costs. The last thing you would want to do as a physician is to encourage the perception that doctors are only in it for the money.

What we really need is for physicians to make their case better to the public. Right now no one is hearing the physicians' side of things.

+1

Physicians going on strike... What a joke
 
The American Medical Association is considered by some to be the most powerful union in the history of the United States. It is the root cause of why physician salaries are so much higher than many other professions in the US and why physician salaries are higher than every other nation in the world.

Dude are u serious?

Ama is not a union by any means let alone a strong one. Its mostly students and has nothing to do with salaries. Its a media union and people are right that US law prevents unionization. I believe this is null and void now though as APN get reimbursed the same as docs now.

In australia they have a union and do alot better.

And goiing on strike is a very small part of the collective bargaining that goes along with the unionizing of labor. It can and should be done as the privatization into corporate power has undermined medicine's humanity
 
Dude are u serious?

Ama is not a union by any means let alone a strong one. Its mostly students and has nothing to do with salaries. Its a media union and people are right that US law prevents unionization. I believe this is null and void now though as APN get reimbursed the same as docs now.

In australia they have a union and do alot better.

And goiing on strike is a very small part of the collective bargaining that goes along with the unionizing of labor. It can and should be done as the privatization into corporate power has undermined medicine's humanity


AMA consists of 20% students.

Here's a link to the wikipedia page, since you weren't able to find it yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Medical_Association

Some people don't regard the AMA as a union, but I'd think everyone would agree that its historical political actions are some of the main reasons why the medical profession is so highly esteemed in today in the US.

US law does make the unionization of physicians illegal. That doesn't mean it successfully prevents it.

A lot of countries have physician unions and most are much worse off than physicians in the US. Israeli physicians were on strike a few years ago. Their salary was LESS than that of nurses. They settled with the government. Now they make about $10/hr.
 
Physicians who work in a managed care group or are employed by a hospital can unionize. Residents can unionize. Private practice physicians can join unions as individuals within a particular practice group, but several practice groups cannot collectively bargain for higher wages, benefits, etc. because that would be collusion.

Also loling pretty hard at the AMA being the most powerful union in the history of the US. The AMA isn't a union, it's a professional organization and it is absolutely worthless. Go read SDN healthcare politics threads in 2008-2010 and you'll see a large number of posts calling for the death of the AMA. Example: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=711812
 
The American Medical Association is considered by some to be the most powerful union in the history of the United States. It is the root cause of why physician salaries are so much higher than many other professions in the US and why physician salaries are higher than every other nation in the world.

Yeah, call it what you want, but throughout the history of American medicine, physicians have been extremely successful at protecting their own interests, which means compensation. Look at the fee for service system for example - almost everyone would admit that it encourages excessive and unnecessary procedures and puts the incentives in the wrong place, but we still have it because it makes doctors richer than most counterparts in other western countries. For years now physician payments have been slated to be cut each year by about 3% due to the SGR formula, but each year physicians organizations convince congress that this will be a terrible idea.

I'm not saying we should slash salaries, but the idea that physicians are weak and powerless is not true.
 
Yeah, call it what you want, but throughout the history of American medicine, physicians have been extremely successful at protecting their own interests, which means compensation. Look at the fee for service system for example - almost everyone would admit that it encourages excessive and unnecessary procedures and puts the incentives in the wrong place, but we still have it because it makes doctors richer than most counterparts in other western countries. For years now physician payments have been slated to be cut each year by about 3% due to the SGR formula, but each year physicians organizations convince congress that this will be a terrible idea.

I'm not saying we should slash salaries, but the idea that physicians are weak and powerless is not true.

Yeah. Not to change the topic, but take a look at some surgeon reviews on the various doctor review websites. You'll find many surgeons have very polarized reviews. Either the patient thought the surgeon was excellent or terrible. If you read into the reviews, a good majority of the "poor" ratings were because the surgeon refused to operate. Patients often don't realize that surgery is a last resort treatment, and many times it won't bring a patient back to 100% functionality. If a patient has minor discomfort in, say, his ankle, the surgeon may weigh the costs and benefits and decide surgery is not worth it. The surgeon is doing the patient a favor (and of course, by not operating, the surgeon is losing out on pay).

It is a little discomforting that the honest surgeons - the ones that aren't doing unnecessary procedures at the expense of their patients' livelihoods - are the ones getting the poor ratings.
 
Physicians on strike? Against federal law
AMA a union? Wat

@gutshot
Price Fixing? I thought that was left for the "RUC" to decide 🙄😉
 
I believe that according to US federal law, physicians are not allowed to unionize, although maybe that only applies to residents.

Still, there's an obvious ethical issue at play. Even if physicians could unionize, they couldn't go on strikes without indirectly murdering untold numbers of patients. Even assuming most physicians would somehow be okay with that, the public wouldn't be. One of the reasons physicians catch so much flack right now is because the public thinks they're rich and the main source of healthcare costs. The last thing you would want to do as a physician is to encourage the perception that doctors are only in it for the money.

What we really need is for physicians to make their case better to the public. Right now no one is hearing the physicians' side of things.

Agrees. I always find it weird that the public will view doctors as rich aristocrats, but always run to them when something tragic happens.
 
Ok so besides primary care, what is there to complain about for the most part? Certainly not enough to cause a massive nation wide strike from all parts of the nation. Get real son 👎
 
Here's why doctors don't unionize--going on strike doesn't accomplish anything.

4fdfa3541430a.jpg
 
@gutshot
Price Fixing? I thought that was left for the "RUC" to decide 🙄😉

The RUC advises Medicare reimbursement rates. Price fixing would affect the private insurance market and/or practices that run on out-of-pocket revenue. Apples to oranges. 🙄😉
 
Haven't read it, but have seen the first two movies and like them (or the concept) quite a bit. I really should pick up the book(s).

Great... Another Ayn Rand physician. Just what we needed.

Excuse me while I go hump the TV, Fox News is on.
 
Professions that unionize well, have each other's backs before an employer's or regulatory agency. They are not quick to attack their own in favor of an employer, regulatory agency, or larger institution.

Would premeds unionize well? What happens when a premed is at odds with an employer or university? Do more or most premeds automatically support their peer or the larger institution?
 
The American Medical Association is considered by some to be the most powerful union in the history of the United States. It is the root cause of why physician salaries are so much higher than many other professions in the US and why physician salaries are higher than every other nation in the world.

Ohhhhh. Is that why physician's salaries are so much higher than many other professions in the US and every other nation in the world. Interesting. See I always thought it was because of the long hours you put in as a physician (not to mention residency/med school), the opportunity cost of going to medical school (an extra 4 years no pay, and more over 250k+ more in debt, and low pay of residency relatively), and high malpractice insurance rates because doctors can be sued for literally anything, even after they retire (until the statute of limitations runs out, but until then you still need to be paying for malpractice insurance). Not to mention the fact that not everyone is intellectually or emotionally cut out to be a physician. Effectively I am pretty sure physicians salaries are as high as they are because they deserve it and have earned it, not because the AMA makes it arbitrarily so. Not to mention the market will pay what it can bear.
 
Ohhhhh. Is that why physician's salaries are so much higher than many other professions in the US and every other nation in the world. Interesting. See I always thought it was because of the long hours you put in as a physician (not to mention residency/med school), the opportunity cost of going to medical school (an extra 4 years no pay, and more over 250k+ more in debt, and low pay of residency relatively), and high malpractice insurance rates because doctors can be sued for literally anything, even after they retire (until the statute of limitations runs out, but until then you still need to be paying for malpractice insurance). Not to mention the fact that not everyone is intellectually or emotionally cut out to be a physician. Effectively I am pretty sure physicians salaries are as high as they are because they deserve it and have earned it, not because the AMA makes it arbitrarily so. Not to mention the market will pay what it can bear.

In other countries medicine is just as grueling, though minus the debt. If you compare lifetime salaries minus the debt load, US physicians are much better off.

Also, lawyers pay 200k for law school. Their "residency" is low level scut work for an undefined time at an established law firm (if they can land one). All this without any guarantee of pay over 100k. Sure, some make it big, but 99% don't.

What about PhDs in biology? 6 years of graduate work at 25k/year. 5 years of postdoctoral work at 40k/year. I think they work quite hard, and for a cause fundamentally similar to MDs. Yet their job security is nonexistent (for newly grads) and their pay is relatively low, even for the rare "successful" ones.

I agree physicians deserve to be paid well. But deserving to be paid well doesn't guarantee being paid well. And deserving to be paid well doesn't answer the question of how physicians came to be paid well.

You can't just say "market forces." The healthcare market is about as distorted a market as one can imagine.

Alternatively, look at PAs. 3 years of education, much lower requirements to enter, and pay that often exceeds that of family medicine practitioners (while working less hours). Life isn't fair. Careers in medicine aren't fair. You should probably get that in your head before you set yourself up for disappointment.
 
Seriously, nobody has mentioned anti-trust laws that bar this practice? The ability for interns and residents to unionize has also been barred.
 
What about PhDs in biology? 6 years of graduate work at 25k/year. 5 years of postdoctoral work at 40k/year. I think they work quite hard, and for a cause fundamentally similar to MDs. Yet their job security is nonexistent (for newly grads) and their pay is relatively low, even for the rare "successful" ones.
LOL to compare a PhD in biology to an MD. You clearly don't have an idea of the roles, especially by that statement "fundamentally similar."
 
They already have unions: They're called the AMA and the AOA.

:naughty:

I tried a search but didn't come up with much.

I often read and hear about how physicans are constantly getting more flack, less and less pay, and are generally treated more and more poorly everyday, despite their immense role in society. I often think, how screwed would this country be if they all went on strike for just a day? So my question is, why don't they? Besides the whole hippocratic oath thing...

I would think just a day would be enough to shock this country into showing a little more appreciation towards them. I mean, I'm all for the central idea of helping people out as much as I possibly can, but there's got to be a point where they stand together and say, enough is enough.

Thoughts?
 
LOL to compare a PhD in biology to an MD. You clearly don't have an idea of the roles, especially by that statement "fundamentally similar."

Fundamentally similar in their goals of improving the health of society. I think I have an idea of their roles. At least adcoms seem to like what I have to say.
 
Seriously, nobody has mentioned anti-trust laws that bar this practice? The ability for interns and residents to unionize has also been barred.

Guys, don't worry. There are anti-murder laws in the US. Therefore, there can't be any murderers roaming free!
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Medical_Association

I can't believe no one who has criticized me of calling the AMA a union has bothered to look up their wiki page. Read the politics section and the criticisms section.

If you don't believe wiki, there are plenty of respected economists, health care researchers, and historians that have written about the AMA.

Read Paul Starr's Pulitzer prize winning book, "Social Transformation of American Medicine."

It's pretty easy to call me an idiot on a public internet forums. Call up Paul Starr and Milton Friedman (Nobel Prize Winner) and tell them they are idiots.
 
Ohhhhh. Is that why physician's salaries are so much higher than many other professions in the US and every other nation in the world. Interesting. See I always thought it was because of the long hours you put in as a physician (not to mention residency/med school), the opportunity cost of going to medical school (an extra 4 years no pay, and more over 250k+ more in debt, and low pay of residency relatively), and high malpractice insurance rates because doctors can be sued for literally anything, even after they retire (until the statute of limitations runs out, but until then you still need to be paying for malpractice insurance). Not to mention the fact that not everyone is intellectually or emotionally cut out to be a physician. Effectively I am pretty sure physicians salaries are as high as they are because they deserve it and have earned it, not because the AMA makes it arbitrarily so..

Nope. If what you were paid had to do with what you deserve/need Marines and Coal Miners would be millionaires and A-rod would be flat broke. Market prices for a product are based on supply and demand, not the effort and need of the supplier.
 
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I have no idea why someone feels the need to bolster the AMA so purposely biased in their perspective.

AMA is not a union, they do not even purport to be one and just cause the media or whoever calls them so is for pure public propaganda reasons

And for eveyone stop comparing salaries amongst different forms of labor as it is not the issue. Stop thinking about your personal situation and look at the situation as a whole.

Physician salaries make up less a % of healthcare GDP than any other industrialized country. This GDP has increased by leaps and bounds while physician salaries have remained stagnant at best, though everyones purchasing power has gone down

And I will call milton friedman an idiot as his economic ideology in practice led to the 2008 financial collapse that we are still under. Fee for service you paint as a tool of physicians to make money while its called capitalism and the free market friedman shoved down everyones throat without controlling for many other factors. Besides the fact that a social welfare sector like healthcare should not be governed in such a purely capitalism fashion. And if anything its practice in medicine has brought physicians personal income down as private interests in the form of corporations squeeze labor aka physicians the same as any form of labor. To do more (actual labor or wreap more profits) with less compensation as they are governed by one law, their profit margin which leaves the healthcare sector and is paid out to non contributing stockholders.

Look at the profit margins on the industries that make up the healthcare GDP: pharma, hospitals corporations, insurance, medical devices, biomedical, pharm delivery. These are the highest profit margin industries around next to oil and beverages (something I found funny). These margins which need to be increased every quarter for idiotic and unsustainable reasons drive the healthcare GDP up while costs like labor (docs, PA, whoever) are reduced to increase profit margins further. Its how corporations work plain and simple. This undermines medicine mission as well as the health of our society while bankrupting it.

Unionizing properly and for the right reasons invokes the collective bargaining power of the labor that fuels the healthcare GDP. Docs write scripts, they write orders for tests and images, they bring income into hospitals, they send people to nursing facilities run by large corporations. As a labor force they have the ability to help society by controlling a force that undermines our health, corporations profiting off our bodies. All society and labor should be behind this mission and salary shouldnt be even brought up as it calls into question motives.

But once you cut out or down the ridiculous margins paid to private shareholders, paying doctors appropriately or better yet more humane conditions and hours to better carry out their mission of improving peoples health (as all labor in healthcare would benefit from). Labor vs Labor is just crabs pulling each other down as they almost get out of the barrel. Its fighting for what amounts to a pathetic fraction of the healthcare GDP while the lions share is paid to people who contribute nothing of utility to healthcare, shareholders.

Moneys easy if you have an ounce of creativity or balls as a doctor, but undermines the real issues we should be focusing on as a society. And undermines that persons goal of personal wealth by fueling a false public perception of physicians and preventing collective bargaining. Huge dollars go into making physicians look like crap to prevent unions and the AMA is in actuality a tool to prevent real collective bargaining. For physicians this is likely best accomplished at the state level which is where medical licenses are granted.

The state level is also a more manageable level to organize at compared to federal. And anything at hospital or other lower level would be dictated by state organization momentum. Hospitals dont make laws and dont administer medical licenses so collective bargaining at the level means little. And physician labor at this level should not be subdivided by specialty. It also should not be bashing or undermining other forms of labor like PA or nurses as other forms of labor are not determining your salary, hours, or imposing policies that impact your ability to practice medicine effectively. Stop looking at proximal people or things to blame and see the forrest from the trees.
 
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But, this isnt to say that physicians should not have their powers in this social or economic sector controlled by laws to protect society. Thats the point of laws, to protect the weak from the strong. You give people the benefit of the doubt (unlike corporations) because humans are a societal species since the begining and under normal circumstances dont want to hurt other members. But you make laws to remove those who do from society as well as educating the public to be critical, while having peer review for something like physicians.

Stop thinking of healthcare like the automotive or IT industry and more like your local fire department. Do fireman worry about the profit margin of putting out a fire or when pulling somone from a burning building whether they have fire insurance? No. It trivializes your mission and ability to serve those you are in place for.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Medical_Association

I can't believe no one who has criticized me of calling the AMA a union has bothered to look up their wiki page. Read the politics section and the criticisms section.

If you don't believe wiki, there are plenty of respected economists, health care researchers, and historians that have written about the AMA.

Read Paul Starr's Pulitzer prize winning book, "Social Transformation of American Medicine."

It's pretty easy to call me an idiot on a public internet forums. Call up Paul Starr and Milton Friedman (Nobel Prize Winner) and tell them they are idiots.

Maybe you should read Starrs book (which is maybe 30 years old) and now in the context of the corporitization of todays medicine. Castalino wrote a review of Starrs book "Physicians and Corporations: A corporate transformation of american medicine" i think that highlighted the issues he left unresolved for his times. This was in 2004 and in 9 short years her data on privatization to large corporate structures has shifted even further than Starrs time.

While I agree as in any economic relationship people on each side have self serving priorities, I take a person or group of people over a corporation. when the one side is a corporation governed soley by their bottom line profit margin (by law) then there is a total lack of societal obligation and the concern for another human being that all people have (except the occassional psyhopath) as a member of the human species. We are concerned when another person is sick or injured because survival of the fittest (species, not individual) dictates the survival of the human genome. We maybe more concerned with someone more closely related to us, but we all share 99.9% or whatever of the same genes so the survival of an unknown stranger will still allow 99.9% of our genome to survive. Thats why you see in other higher order species often raising the offspring of another adult that died. Or protecting a member of their species who is endangered by a predator. This maybe amounts to us as "morality" or a conscious but is even more fundamental before laws and religion.

This should be a comforting piece of knowledge, though it obviously does not hold 100% true and gets distorted in modern society. I'm not arguing for physicians or any particular reforms, but making the point you want people in charge of the well being of other people. This applies to societal structures like healthcare, fire department, agriculture and not a corporation or private interests who make decisions about another persons well being from a distance. its harder to make a self serving decision when you are face to face with another humans suffering, but it easier when you are looking at a screen of numbers that represent profit and morbidity/mortality.


Look at the ownership of hospitals in the US and the number of private for profit corporations, though even public nonprofit corporations are still corporations and profits just leave in another form besides money. Such as bond debt, using nonprofit assets and capital to support a private for profit ancilllary service like a hospital vendor that is owned by a friend or relative. Or supporting a private vendor and getting a high paying job when leaving your position at the nonprofit hospital. All the crap that happens in government that despite the "nonprofit" label still amounts to self serving "profits" indirectly. Unions do not solve this problem, but provide a counter force (if uncorrupt) to provide a checks and balances. One is capital and the other is labor. Removing the large private corporate ownership is a better move, but something that is too powerful to dismantle at this point with our government serving basically only their interests. Labor is a force that can take the place of government intervention when inadequate as capital is worthless without labor.

Public education and empowerment is more important than the unionization of a labor force as it is still subject to self serving purposes. The public needs to recognize and control this factor when it undermines the mission of providing healthcare. You just dont want to fall into the trap of choosing someone else to regulate it who can empower themselves and self serve as that is what formal government is and puts us back in the dilemma of our times. The internet provides free and unlimited access to knowledge for public access, but is still influenced (though less so) by propaganda to misinform and control the publics information and thus decision making capacity.

Frightening as it is and against international law but the US legalized domestic propaganda against its citizens within the past year. True its always existed, but legalizing on paper is an effort I find testimony to its tyranny. Educate yourselves and think critically about these issues, but overall don't fight amongst yourselves. Don't believe the person working side by side with you is the reason for your dissatisfaction with your working conditions or wages or your customer or patient in medicine just because they are more proximal. People need and benefit from each other as its natural to our species, but power strucures like noam chomsky has talked about for 60 years separate people from working together effectively to achieve goals they should arrive at easily if left we were left our own devices.

Working within and against negative power structures is why unionization of labor at logical levels such as for physicians makes sense to me. The AMA is maybe made up of only 20% med students but basically 100% join in medical school and their names remain on the roster as members forever without actively reenrolling. So quite wiki all you want, but you should think more critically about things like this as statistics are the greatest tools of liars.

Are you a medical student? Why do you feel the need to prop up the AMA and are so adamant about unionization of physicians? You think it would be detrimental and for what reasons?

Physicians are one of the most disenfranchised groups of labor relative to the 30% of our GDP industry which would stop dead in its tracks (minus APNs who practice independently in some states which is probably .0001% of the GDP that would remain running). No one is saying strike and let people die, which shows your marginal grasp of labor empowerment. Have you started rotations and seen how detrimental medicine is to patients because of policies forced on physicians from hospitals, or because of bogus research fueled by a corporation, or because of the "cost" of patient care that forces physicians to think like assembly line robots. Which is made easier because of a heavy patient load and documentation that numbs their mind to the actual pathophysiology learned in basic sciences. Besides the fact that medicine has very limited efficacy in its resources compared to what the public thinks. The control of pathology without detrimental effects is hard to find on an inpatient ward, and I mean control that should not be enacted in the first place because effects are worse than what the natural course would be without it. But when you try to treat disease in everyone with a single flow chart or diagram thats what you get and thats what corporations like as their are profits to be made in predictive behavior.
 
The American Medical Association is considered by some to be the most powerful union in the history of the United States. It is the root cause of why physician salaries are so much higher than many other professions in the US and why physician salaries are higher than every other nation in the world.

Jesus Christ, what is wrong with you pre-meds? I came back to the pre-med forum today for the first time in several years to see some of the most asinine comments made by people wanting to go into this job. The AMA is not a union. It does not represent physicians' views. Most physicians do not belong to the AMA. What it does is sells the souls of working doctors to promote CPT codes, pharmaceutical sales, and ethically dubious research. AMA supported Obamacaide when most physicians opposed it. The AMA keeps track of your prescription habits and sells it to drug companies so that they can target you. JAMA was busted for printing pediatric psych articles and claiming no conflicts of interest exists when the author was getting paid by the very drug manufacturer he was investigating. Look up something more than wikipedia and a 30-year-old book to formulate your opinions.
 
We are concerned when another person is sick or injured because survival of the fittest (species, not individual) dictates the survival of the human genome. We maybe more concerned with someone more closely related to us, but we all share 99.9% or whatever of the same genes so the survival of an unknown stranger will still allow 99.9% of our genome to survive.

Strangely, much of the money spent on healthcare goes toward the elderly who are too old to pass along their genome.
 
deleted hate mail from ferning
 
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It's amazing how angry you guys are getting. I'm getting hate mail like it's my job.
 
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Not really strange as we are more than other species in that we have a culture and moral priniciples higher than survival which i should have acknowledged

But my point was how natural "compassion" is for members of the same species and its a quality that should not be filtered out by an economic structure in things like healthcare. It should be recognized as uniquely human and something that a private/public structures as I fail to see a true difference in a nonprofit and for profit corporate organization the more i critically looks at the finances they have as a whole as well as the decision making individuals that are a part of it.

The more direct and consistent that care can be provided and decisions made on that local level, the more likely natural human beneficience wins out. Not being unreasonably naive or "progressive" its science. Chimps live in societies of around 50 and humans started in typical groups of 150. And there are many natural examples of species putting there own ass on the line to benefit their species societal longevity. Worker bees and queen, packs of animals fighting off a predator, etc. Our "dog eat dog world" glamorized often by our society is manufactured, unnatural, counterintuitive and detrimental.

I love how some towns actually ban the rights of corporations to be recognized as "people" under the our laws interpretation as its central to our problems. Governed by profit only yet allowed to own land, sue another person/business/country, allowed to own human ingenuity in the form of patent rights, etc. all very recent developments in human history and weird when you think about. And with no benefit to society as our country financial collapse was caused by allowing the profits of corporations to override peoples well being.

These structures and governments filter out what comes natural to people which is working with each other to accomplish goals to further our species which includes everyone. Global society on all fronts too: economic as 2008 collapse hit all markets, culturally as evidence of other societies is seen mixed in all countries, and socially with more forms of travel and the internet. This isnt "communist" ideology but natural when you recognize our species as a societal one when part of our dna was still chimps.

4500/5000 hospitals in the US are corporations and most for profit. All these "healthcare systems" have now bought up small private physician offices and groups because of ACOs in obamacare. And corporate medicine isnt benign as anyone who practices medicine should see its influence either squeezing every dime out of a patients pathology. Turning the physician into a brainless energizer bunny filling out forms for huge patient loads and often not doing anything for the patient in circumstances where treatment resources are poor (but unavoidably exposing the patient to the risks in hospital care) or detrimental. And what do you do when evidence based medicine is based off corrupt research, treatments are funneled through the fda with little efficacy and a poor safety profile, and we are all marketed to death by the companies that make the real money in medicine. My residents didnt believe me when I said stomach acid serves an immunologic function in killing bacteria and viruses thereby preventing inoculation lower in the GI tract. Fing gatroenteritis.

But yea everyone gets a PPI and DVT prophylaxis should be so widely initiated. I sit on my ass or lie in bed for hours straight without keeling over from a DVT. IV fluids and blood draws form a thrombus which is more likely a source that the hypercoaguablity of laying in bed for 2 days straight. But you cant get paid for inpatient care with PO vs IV fluids. Some hospitals are better than others at evidence based, but Ive been to 6 in less than a year and its still the same story.

Oh no the "costs" of patient care they babble like they have any idea about the economic relationships involved. Its the "price" first off billed to insurance or written off if they dont get paid. People used to stay in hospitals for months 30 years ago but we didnt implode economically then and that was before a social welfare insitution like healthcare was undermined by corporate interests. nixon and HMOs, insurance doesnt operate for free they take about a 30% profit margin off society if you add back in BS accounting tactics maybe more. The margins are killing us as a company doesnt get rich from giving a treatment once or selling a one pepsi. Repeat business. Bleed em dry literally and figuratively for medicine. People dont natural operate or think this way, but can certainly be forced or influenced to carry it out.

People used to live in a small town or city and say hey jo blow and mary blow just died on their way to east bumblefuc hospital. Thats unacceptable, so we are going to make our own to prevent that. They were thinking oh whats the cost analaysis of treating joe and mary so they dont die or how much can we make when we get them admitted. But thats the frame of mind from many young to old physicians when they practice with "costs" in mind. Its not the illegals either as one study was debunked that purported it if you need such studies

2.6 trillion

The cost to us is the profit margins taken out of healthcare

pharma, 80% of basic science research is publicly funded. FDA fees are not paid back into the social welfare system so who needs them. Why in the first place would you want a financial obstacle made by the public for a treatment to benefit the public? Hey I found the vaccine for hiv but i dont have 10 million or maybe I shouldnt be made to be bogged down in paperwork. Maybe human creativity should be encouraged and not prevented by finances or paperwork or administration. Medical devices, biotech, and drug delivery companies are all the same burden as pharm

Insurance: you pay money in and there business model is not not pay it back when you need it. Serves zero utility and they take a huge profit margin for this service

Hospital, nursing, and rehab facility conglomerates. Nursing homes charge 8k a month for prison facilities and horrible care. 80% are in active violation but remain open. How a person with half an ounce of gusto opens a mom and pop shop like there used to be and charge 3-4k. Youd be making 6 figures for half the work as a physician and no formal education required.

All these things contribute fat to the healthcare gdp because they provide no utility to mission of what is a social welfare (welfare is a good thing believe it or not) instiution societies need.

You could cut these "costs" and half the gdp. And no they dont deserve the profits as treatments and their services suck. We are way behind where we should be. People are behind any real progress a corporation contributes and should be rewarded by society to encourage more. NIH cant give specific agendas for creativity as it cant be dictated, we just lose out on other forms not "predicted" by them. 10 mill for this specific type of treatment for this specific type of cancer they advertise. Ridiculous. If you provide people with basic living necessities and time to be creative and think, not working mindlessly for 50 hrs a week, you'll get creativity. Totally natural for humans to innovate unprovoked. Einstein worked as a patent clerk and given time to think amongst the creativity of new ideas seen by a patent clerk and you got results. Thats a formula for success that can work for anyone, maybe not in physics but maybe a non "genius" helps us out in another just as helpful way.

Humans allowed to be humans, rather than sweated or manipulated have gotten us this far and can take us farther. We are stagnant right now
 
It's amazing how angry you guys are getting. I'm getting hate mail like it's my job.

Ok I'm sorry

You just pressed one of my buttons and im in a internet venting mood

No hate, always love

Just don't encourage blatant misinformation, especially when people believe it that they are discouraged or further marginalized.

You throw out facts to support the view that people left to their own devices are predominantly self serving to detriment of others when this is totally untrue. Humans are naturally productive and cooperative to further each other as we arent some species living in isolation, but in societies for a reason.

AMA sucks too, student should "unionize" to stop getting scammed by educational institutions into debt slavery. Thats where your strength and needs are. Although we all should be interested even if such things dont effect us so directly. Same goes for labor. Things can always be improved. Accepting crap work conditions cause some other country has crap conditions for their docs or whatever labor force means nothing. And I dont care about money and wages arent the real issue, its recognizing areas to improve and ways to implement them.

Wages get better for everyone when society moves in directions like this. People get too wrapped up into their roles and jobs, holding on to your postion as polishing the brass on the titanic isn't job stability. And thats easier said when a person needs that job for food or shelter.

But physicians have the luxury to make productive societal moves right now without sweating living in a ditch or starving to death. You can move general motors to mexico but you can't send patients off to an imperial territory to get their bronchodilator for a copd exacerbation. Its a unique "industry" because labor is more powerful compared to capital. This can be used in a positive productive manner or people crying that the CRNA makes too much or begging pharma for a 7k speaking gig. Its not surprising the way formal education manufactures its labor force for compliance. All those hoops to jump through serve a purpose
 
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Fundamentally similar in their goals of improving the health of society. I think I have an idea of their roles. At least adcoms seem to like what I have to say.
Or they give you a pass on that one because its a cutesy answer. Here's the correct answer: a PhD in biology is to elucidate on the pathways/methods of biological systems. That's their fundamental cause. Diseases and such are interesting to research and what grant money is available for. If someone's fundamental cause is the healthcare of society, they should work in healthcare.

Guys, don't worry. There are anti-murder laws in the US. Therefore, there can't be any murderers roaming free!
So you're saying there are physicians out there that are illegally unionized? Do you logic in head?
 
Volcomx, post your personal statement and video tape or recant your med school interviews. I'm pretty sure we can help point out where you tripped up. We might need to give you a lobotomy to fix the issue but then you wont be capable of carrying out med school education

Also you clearly cant govern your own life when you apply to 10 top med schools or whatever, besides the fact you even consider retaking a 34 mcat-let alone ask an adcom if its a good idea.

You have zero insight into the simple process of applying and getting into med school with a 34 3.9 gpa, so your lack of insight into the economic and societal issues of healthcare is not surprising.

Youre like a guy with a $100 bill who doesn't know how to buy a candy bar cause the price says $1.

You are testimony to what how inadequate we educate people in this country even when they are at the top of your class

But seriously PM me and I will provide you with practical advice for interviews and even edit your personal statement to show that internet ball bustin and arguments don't have end on bad blood

Also applying is still probability, you basically apply everywhere and eat the extra application fee as an investment. You need to do this after not getting in one cycle as its a red flag and places are unlikely to accept you after being rejected last year. You want to go, you wherever you get in this year. You need some antidouching lessons as well, medical education might marginalize you for the better actually
 
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