Why don't physicians work more regular hours?

[BASuperman]

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I have alot of friends who are going into medicine, and a majority of them are afraid of the consequences their career will have on their family life.

This being said, I have heard NUMEROUS people say that almost any specialty of medicine can be made into a 40-45 hour per week gig.

If this is true, why don't the majority of doctors try to do this? I mean I'm sure that this will result in a significant paycut for some and make it harder to find joint practices to become affiliated with, but wouldn't the ability to have both a successful work and family life be attractive to any new doctor?

My question is, is this true that alot of specialities can be made into "family friendly" careers? And if so, why doesn't more physicians do this?

 

[Lokhtar]

Some people may not want to. Other people prefer the $$ to the lifestyle. Some others are very difficult to turn into lifestyle specialties considering the call and emergencies that youd need to handle.

 

[cowme]

Because people don't only get sick between 9 and 5 on Monday through Fridays

 

[muhali3]

I think an average of 50 hours/wk is doable for most specialties. Initially, many will work more because they are trying to make partner. Some will work more because they want more money. Some will work more because they actually like working.

I think people exaggerate how bad the work-life balance is. I know many docs with satisfying work and personal lives.

 

[OveractiveBrain]

I have alot of friends who are going into medicine, and a majority of them are afraid of the consequences their career will have on their family life.

This being said, I have heard NUMEROUS people say that almost any specialty of medicine can be made into a 40-45 hour per week gig.

If this is true, why don't the majority of doctors try to do this? I mean I'm sure that this will result in a significant paycut for some and make it harder to find joint practices to become affiliated with, but wouldn't the ability to have both a successful work and family life be attractive to any new doctor?

My question is, is this true that alot of specialities can be made into "family friendly" careers? And if so, why doesn't more physicians do this?

(1) Because in order to be a physician (not just a "health care practitioner") there are certain qualities that must be met. Determination, committment, altruism, to name a few. The type of people who go get an MD aren't the ones who say "gee, you know what I always wanted... a 9 to 5." After a minimum of 7 years of training, after competing with the best people in the country, HOPEFULLY the physician at the end of the road continues her commitment to her patients, to herself, and to her soul.

Summary: We're too invested in more than "nice hours." Those people become PAs or Nurses.

(2) 250,000 in debt, with a standerd 30 year repayment plan, costs about 600,000 dollars and a monthly payment of 2000 dollars. Yes. 2000 dollars per month just to pay off your debt. Getting paid 10 dollars a patient (maybe) from HMOs, medicare, and other beauracratic bull means you have to hump it just to make your payments.

Summary: We owe too much money

(3) People need us. There are too many people and not nearly enough doctors to take care of them. People need help all the time, not when you want them to need help. We are at the top of the ship, no one knows more about human anatomy, physiology, and the general human being than we do. If don't do it, who will?

Summary: Patients need us

(4) Doctors do choose "nice hours" sometimes. They get married, have kids, and go part time. Some people work federal jobs (crap ass bankers hours) on salary. Some people do academic medicine, where you "medicine" only 3-4 hours a day. The rest is billing, writing books, etc, where you actually can see your family, even though you may be working 80 hours a week. Working 80 hours a week just not all "at the office"

Summary: Duh, lots of options that let you do exactly what you've suggested.

 

[OveractiveBrain]

I think an average of 50 hours/wk is doable for most specialties. Initially, many will work more because they are trying to make partner. Some will work more because they want more money. Some will work more because they actually like working.

I think people exaggerate how bad the work-life balance is. I know many docs with satisfying work and personal lives.

Yeah, people reflect on the cardiothoracic surgeons doing 3 CABGs back to back for 24 hours straight and go all "OH GNOEZ! MEDICINE IS SO HARDZ!"

Really, what people are feeling right now is "I work alot, I don't think I get paid as much as should be, so my life sucks" or "I've been a wealthy cardiologist for 30 years. Now my pay has been cut, Im losing money on garbage medicare patients that just wont die, and I have to sign on to a hospital to keep my salary" which really means "i have to do call again on saturday nights, once a month"

 

[Jolie South]

This is a pre-med topic. Moving to pre-allopathic.

 

[circulus vitios]

Because people don't only get sick between 9 and 5 on Monday through Fridays

"Not my problem."

 

[Law2Doc]

"Not my problem."

LOL. Well it is if you aren't self employed. In any partnership, firm or academic setting, the group is going to want to provide service to the 50+% of patients who aren't getting sick at convenient times. Thanks to the way reimbursements work, your income is a function of the volume you do. So no for profit endeavor is going to want to leave this money out of the equation. If you aren't amenable to working the off hours, they probably can find someone else who is. Which is why part time Isn't always as easy to find as folks on pre-allo like to suggest.

 

[45408]

"Not my problem."

"Not going to hire you either."

Sure, you can turn a lot of jobs into fairly regular hours, such as being an anesthesiologist in an outpatient surgery center, pathology, outpatient psychiatry, etc., but there are few specialties that don't require any weekend/overnight coverage, and not many places are interested in hiring you if you won't do either of those, because that means they have to do more of it to cover for you.

Now, if "regular hours" means you would work weekends or nights as long as they don't exceed 40-50 hours per week, then sure, you can be a hospitalist, psychiatrist, pediatrician or even a trauma surgeon. One of our trauma surgeons works 36 hours per week. That happens to be every Friday, Saturday and Sunday night, so you can see how "regular hours" might not apply.

 

[Morzh]

I love working nights and weekends. I like nights because the world is a lot less crowded and I love driving home on empty roads. I like weekends because I prefer my weekend to be M-W instead of F-S because the grocery store/home depot are also a lot less crowded.

 

[cge0]

...

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

I love working nights and weekends. I like nights because the world is a lot less crowded and I love driving home on empty roads. I like weekends because I prefer my weekend to be M-W instead of F-S because the grocery store/home depot are also a lot less crowded.

I second this. Going to stores when everyone else isn't there is awesome.

 

[Kaustikos]

Who seriously works a 9-5 gig these days? That's pretty cush in and of itself...

pretty boring imo

 

[MossPoh]

You would be hard pressed to find anyone in the 6 figure range with a strict 9-5 job. Many people take work home with them or they just have to invest the time to become better at what they do.

I find the "not my problem" philosophy concerning. No, we shouldn't have to sacrifice everything in our own life for the job, but the care of our patients is the defining part of our job. Saying it isn't your problem is saying you don't give a damn about the most important part of the job. There will be times the patient is an a-hole. There will be times that the last thing you want to do is head into that building. Despite all of that, going into medicine for anything other than providing the best care possible for your patients is a sign that perhaps you should pursue something else. That is ignoring the fact that people don't want to work with someone that says, "Welp, it is 5 p.m.! Quitting time for me! See you guys later!" and walks out with the bare minimum of work invested and also saddling their teammates with the rest.

There is this belief that the only way to be a good mother or father is if you have some job where you are 9 to 5 and there every second. When you work obscene ours in the 80 or 90+ hour range, sure, your family life will take a hit. My dad worked 60 to 70 hours a week (easily) as a physician. I will pit his abilities as a parent against any of my friends with parents who worked less. He MADE things work. If I had a sporting event or whatever else, he would go in earlier or leave later. He'd at least attempt to be there, even if it meant taking a call and leaving early. He made the time he had count. That is the important part.

 

[Iso4ane]

You would be hard pressed to find anyone in the 6 figure range with a strict 9-5 job. Many people take work home with them or they just have to invest the time to become better at what they do.

I find the "not my problem" philosophy concerning. No, we shouldn't have to sacrifice everything in our own life for the job, but the care of our patients is the defining part of our job. Saying it isn't your problem is saying you don't give a damn about the most important part of the job. There will be times the patient is an a-hole. There will be times that the last thing you want to do is head into that building. Despite all of that, going into medicine for anything other than providing the best care possible for your patients is a sign that perhaps you should pursue something else. That is ignoring the fact that people don't want to work with someone that says, "Welp, it is 5 p.m.! Quitting time for me! See you guys later!" and walks out with the bare minimum of work invested and also saddling their teammates with the rest.

There is this belief that the only way to be a good mother or father is if you have some job where you are 9 to 5 and there every second. When you work obscene ours in the 80 or 90+ hour range, sure, your family life will take a hit. My dad worked 60 to 70 hours a week (easily) as a physician. I will pit his abilities as a parent against any of my friends with parents who worked less. He MADE things work. If I had a sporting event or whatever else, he would go in earlier or leave later. He'd at least attempt to be there, even if it meant taking a call and leaving early. He made the time he had count. That is the important part.

+1 to everything mentioned here. Plus, I believe that when you are busy and you try to make things work you will appreciated whatever little time you have with your family than other parents who work less. Plus, the money you earn isn't only for yourself, it for you family as well so there that aspect as well. Plus, a lot of doc may only work ~40 hours in the clinic, but then they spend a lot of time doing paperwork and other stuff that is related to seeing patients but not actually seeing them.

 

[Political]

Who seriously works a 9-5 gig these days? That's pretty cush in and of itself...

Psychs typically work 9-5, and make anywhere b/w 160,000-250,000 you can possibly make almost 500,000 if you have a practice in Manhattan or LA and treat only the rich.

Honestly, when all of you guys start families (myself included) you will all probably want something like a 9-5 schedule, quick frankly

 

[Law2Doc]

?..you can possibly make almost 500,000 if you have a practice in Manhattan or LA and treat only the rich...

yes but how many people honestly can make this happen? This is a very small niche and already filled. SDN is a place for realistic advice. The latest medscape survey puts psych squarely at the low end of salary earners ( peds is worst). The high end right now is ortho and radiology, both of which average $350k. If the average of the most lucrative specialty is $350k, then obviously saying you are going to earn a lot more than this in one of the least well off specialties while working a lot fewer hours is disengenuous. Let's stick with realistic advice on SDN. Sure there will be folks who are exceptions to the rule, but most are going to be the rule.

 

[pancakesyrup]

(2) 250,000 in debt, with a standerd 30 year repayment plan, costs about 600,000 dollars and a monthly payment of 2000 dollars. Yes. 2000 dollars per month just to pay off your debt. Getting paid 10 dollars a patient (maybe) from HMOs, medicare, and other beauracratic bull means you have to hump it just to make your payments.

Summary: We owe too much money

A bit off topic, but who the fook would choose a 30 year repayment plan when interest rates are 8-10%?

 

[Law2Doc]

A bit off topic, but who the fook would choose a 30 year repayment plan when interest rates are 8-10%?

You avoid it if you can, but the bottom line is that you have to pick a monthly payment amount you can afford, and depending on your income and expenses, a 30 year plan may afford you the monthly payments at the level you can service.

 

[NickNaylor]

A bit off topic, but who the fook would choose a 30 year repayment plan when interest rates are 8-10%?

People that go to an undergrad, take out six figures in debt, and then go to med school and take out another six figures.

 

[45408]

Psychs typically work 9-5, and make anywhere b/w 160,000-250,000 you can possibly make almost 500,000 if you have a practice in Manhattan or LA and treat only the rich.

Honestly, when all of you guys start families (myself included) you will all probably want something like a 9-5 schedule, quick frankly

What you want and what you get can be very different things. Your mention of a psychiatrist making $500K/year is like telling a Little Leaguer that A-Rod signed a $100 million contract.

 

[pancakesyrup]

People that go to an undergrad, take out six figures in debt, and then go to med school and take out another six figures.

Yeah but wouldn't it save tons of money if it was paid back in 10 years instead of 30?

 

[cge0]

...

 

[Longshanks]

Yeah but wouldn't it save tons of money if it was paid back in 10 years instead of 30?

Of course but the monthly payments are outrageous, which you are expected to pay during residency unless you qualify for forbearance. If you are paying rent/mortgage, supporting children, paying for food, transportation, and now a massive student loan repayment on top of that, not much is left over if anything for discretionary funds or investment.

 

[NickNaylor]

Yeah but wouldn't it save tons of money if it was paid back in 10 years instead of 30?

Have you seen the amount of money required to pay this debt back?

As an example, when I graduate medical school, I'll have somewhere around $160k in debt (which includes interest on the loans that is capitalized). If I wanted to pay that back in 7 years, it would require monthly payments that are greater than $2,000. How am I supposed to do that on a monthly salary of $4,000 as a resident? So right there, that's 3-5 years where you can't make much headway on the debt unless you have a spouse that's supporting you.

Once you're a fully practicing physician you can start to really pay the loans off if you make it a priority, but even then you'd have to be making significant payments to get them paid off in less than 10 years (within 5-7 years after completing residency). If you're going into primary care, forget it. Frankly it's easy to see why it takes some people at least 15-20 years to pay off their loans depending on the situation.

 

[HINKLO]

As an example, when I graduate medical school, I'll have somewhere around $160k in debt (which includes interest on the loans that is capitalized). If I wanted to pay that back in 7 years, it would require monthly payments that are greater than $2,000. How am I supposed to do that on a monthly salary of $4,000 as a resident? So right there, that's 3-5 years where you can't make much headway on the debt unless you have a spouse that's supporting you

Living on 2k/month? It might not be lush living, but it's not exactly poverty either. I can understand not wanting to live that way for 7 years though.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Living on 2k/month? It might not be lush living, but it's not exactly poverty either. I can understand not wanting to live that way for 7 years though.

Yeahhh we shouldn't go down this road here...you can see salary pre-tax/ salary post-tax/debt payment amounts etc. calculated out all over the place on sdn. There are quite a few threads concerning these types of numbers. The bottom line is that some people think that paying off loans during residency is a good idea, some people don't and some people have other obligations during residency that would make it nearly impossible to put a big dent in loans.

Lots of good answers in this thread for the question though.

 

[Law2Doc]

Living on 2k/month? It might not be lush living, but it's not exactly poverty either. I can understand not wanting to live that way for 7 years though.

In a lot of the coastal big cities, 2k per month barely covers rent on a studio apartment, utilities, car insurance and gas, and your phone bill. And that's assuming we are talking about after tax dollars, which we aren't. And then there's pesky things like groceries. So yeah, that's going to have you living pretty badly. Also FYI, 2k/month is 24k/ year, which last I checked was in the ballpark of what we call the poverty level. So yeah, it is "exactly poverty".

 

[CheA]

deleted

 

[NickNaylor]

Living on 2k/month? It might not be lush living, but it's not exactly poverty either. I can understand not wanting to live that way for 7 years though.

Though the poverty level for a single person family is $10k, I would like to see you live in the real world for $2k a month. Keep in mind the "real world" isn't like college. There is no subsidized housing (dorms), which would probably be the greatest increase in living costs. I second L2D's response - that would barely be enough to cover rent, costs associated with a car, and food, much less any other necessary expenses depending on where you live. Even in places with low costs of living, I think that would be a challenge.

Go live in a place where real estate is cheap. That's where they need more doctors anyway. I do just fine with my ~$1,500 after tax paycheck that I get 11 months of the year. I can even save ~$500 every month if I didn't eat out every day. Or if you can't do that, at least appreciate that there are people who cannot afford to live wherever they want to. Yes I'm single and don't have a family, but most people have both spouses make money these days.

Cool, thanks for telling me where I should live, bro.

 

[235788]

If you fear the hours become a dentist.

 

[boobelle]

Why don't physicians work more regular hours?

Why don't patients get sick only during regular hours?

 

[Longshanks]

Go live in a place where real estate is cheap. That's where they need more doctors anyway. I do just fine with my ~$1,500 after tax paycheck that I get 11 months of the year. I can even save ~$500 every month if I didn't eat out every day. Or if you can't do that, at least appreciate that there are people who cannot afford to live wherever they want to. Yes I'm single and don't have a family, but most people have both spouses make money these days.

So one should base their future career training and options based on areas of the country with low real estate value due to their being a lack of opportunity, economy, and infrastructure in those areas? Fantastic logic. What if you get matched somewhere lower on your list in a high cost of living area, and that then is your only opportunity to begin the career you've been working hard towards for the better part of the last decade of your life? Nope, forget that match, drop out and scramble into Boondocks, KS because $1,500 is a liveable wage there.

Though the poverty level for a single person family is $10k, I would like to see you live in the real world for $2k a month. Keep in mind the "real world" isn't like college. There is no subsidized housing (dorms), which would probably be the greatest increase in living costs. I second L2D's response - that would barely be enough to cover rent, costs associated with a car, and food, much less any other necessary expenses depending on where you live. Even in places with low costs of living, I think that would be a challenge.



Cool, thanks for telling me where I should live, bro.

Or God forbid you have an emergency you need to pay for.

 

[45408]

Go live in a place where real estate is cheap. That's where they need more doctors anyway. I do just fine with my ~$1,500 after tax paycheck that I get 11 months of the year. I can even save ~$500 every month if I didn't eat out every day. Or if you can't do that, at least appreciate that there are people who cannot afford to live wherever they want to. Yes I'm single and don't have a family, but most people have both spouses make money these days.

Read more closely. We're talking about residency, and most residencies are in large, urban areas. At the very least, most of them aren't in the really low COL areas, and quite a few of them are in very expensive areas. You can't really commute much in residency, because your time is already strapped pretty tightly.

These threads just kill a little piece of me every time someone brags about how little they can live on.

 

[courtnes]

Read more closely. We're talking about residency, and most residencies are in large, urban areas. At the very least, most of them aren't in the really low COL areas, and quite a few of them are in very expensive areas. You can't really commute much in residency, because your time is already strapped pretty tightly.

These threads just kill a little piece of me every time someone brags about how little they can live on.

I think part of it is that kids in college don't necessarily know what it's like to have real bills that they have to pay without school loans. I live on $1800/mo now and it sucks. (Yes, I realize there are other people that have it worse.) You can't find a decent apartment in Philly for less than $750, maybe $650 if you're willing to go with a studio, maybe $600 if you're willing to have roommates. But then there's utilities/cable/internet on top of that so you're looking at another $100-150 or so a month. That's half my monthly income right there. Cell phone bill? I doubt you're paying less than $75/mo. It costs $40 even to fill up my super efficient little Corolla, which I have to do probably 3x a month. It adds up, kids. Not to mention my salary covers both me and my fiance most of the time because his work as a photographer is largely seasonal. I can't wait for him to go back into IT. My salary leaves very little space for enjoying life without feeling guilty for going out to dinner somewhere nice occasionally.

They'll learn when they're residents trying to make their avg $45K salary cover all this stuff and school loans. Better hope income based repayment is still around in 5 years.

 

[MeowMeowCAT]

Medicine > Family

We already have enough people in this world as it is. Just adopt a kid when you retire and you will not feel like you missed out on having a family. You will be the cool post-doctor grandpa living of the $200k's in savings.

 

[CheA]

deleted

 

[NickNaylor]

You can spin it anyway you want, but none of those are what I meant. What I meant is that you can choose to serve in a rural area (post residency) where you get paid more, serve the population in dire need, and get respect for what you do. Supposedly you can move to a nicer city after 10 years of doing this if you really prefer (your loan will be gone by this time unless you insist on having a very high standard of living). Doctors do have this option whereas people in a lot of other occupations don't.

Poor people don't brag about living poor. They talk about how living modestly works when medicine-bound college kids don't think they will have a comfortable posh life on their >150k salary because they will be 200k in debt. I have no idea why little pieces of you die when you hear this, btw.

With all this said, I do realize that having to pay 2k per month for 30 years would scare anybody, especially people who think they are smart and deserve nothing less than a life with a nice house, nice car, etc. If those are your primary concerns, why are you going into medicine? If you really have a passion for something (helping those in need, or even just doing something worthwhile as your job), all of these would be secondary concerns. People with passion don't choose their career after having gone through cost/benefit, sacrifice/6-figure-salary analysis based on their impeccable logic.

But when you're post-residency, you aren't living on a $45k salary and all of this is moot.

What point in the process are you? I'm going to pin you as a freshman or sophomore that hasn't put in much time or money into becoming a physician. Once you're six figures in debt, have sold away the better years of your life to studying and working awful hours in the hospital, and have experienced the inability to spend your time as you want, your perspective will likely change. And by the way, caring about your own life or salary doesn't mean you don't "have a passion for something" or don't want to help "those in need." I think most physicians are motivated on some level to provide an intrinsically useful service to the community and care about those they provide that service to. And I doubt most physicians are *****ic enough to run the gauntlet just for an apparently high salary. But they deserve to be paid for the time and effort they gave up to become qualified to treat others. It's easy to say that physicians should be paid less and should stop whining when you haven't given up those very things.

It's also extremely easy to make comparisons of wealth depending on what you're comparing things to. For example, the computer or laptop you typed your response on cost more than several years' salary for much of the world. The college education you're getting cost more than most people will ever make in their lifetimes. But of course, we don't worry about that. THOSE DOCTORS MAKE TOO MUCH! GET THE PITCHFORKS!

And finally, nice way to sneak in the "YOU'RE GOING TO BE A BAD DOCTOR" message.

 

[Narmerguy]

But when you're post-residency, you aren't living on a $45k salary and all of this is moot.

What point in the process are you? I'm going to pin you as a freshman or sophomore that hasn't put in much time or money into becoming a physician. Once you're six figures in debt, have sold away the better years of your life to studying and working awful hours in the hospital, and have experienced the inability to spend your time as you want, your perspective will likely change. And by the way, caring about your own life or salary doesn't mean you don't "have a passion for something" or don't want to help "those in need." I think most physicians are motivated on some level to provide an intrinsically useful service to the community and care about those they provide that service to. But they deserve to be paid for the time and effort they gave up to become qualified to treat others. It's easy to say that physicians should be paid less and should stop whining when you haven't given up those very things.

It's also extremely easy to make comparisons of wealth depending on what you're comparing things to. For example, the computer or laptop you typed your response on cost more than several years' salary for much of the world. The college education you're getting cost more than most people will ever make in their lifetimes. But of course, we don't worry about that. THOSE DOCTORS MAKE TOO MUCH! GET THE PITCHFORKS!

And finally, nice way to sneak in the "YOU'RE GOING TO BE A BAD DOCTOR" message.

To be fair, I hear this argument made often and I feel compelled to point out that it's not as if these doctor's and future doctors were turning down other high-paying jobs to get this gig because they wanted to provide this service. Maybe they care, maybe they don't, but for the vast majority of us there's no career we are realistically competitive/suited for that would pay the kind of average salaries we receive. This "sacrifice" of loans and etc is made with good knowledge of this fact, and I submit that we should not look at it as if future physicians really undergo some kind of terrible hardship.

I'm not arguing that physicians should or should not be paid less, but simply pointing out that up to this point their motivation to help patients is largely untested because this profession represents one of, if not the best options available to these types of individuals.

 

[GetThePointe77]

Now I am not saying this is the norm AT ALL, but just to share one experience...
I was talking to a doctor who is in a specialty that generally is considered shift work (so he gets plenty of time to see his family, isnt on call ect). He was complaining about how horrible the new changes in medicine reimbursement were. Since I'm nosy (and hes known me since I was a fetus no joke) I asked him how much, ballpark, he made. He said over 1 million dollars (he was a partner in his private group which provides for several hospitals). I asked how much his pay would be after the changes. He said around 700K.

Yes, he committed many years of his life to training to be a doctor, however I found this to be quite ridiculous. Now I completely understand if people who genuinely needed it, and were living on lets say 24K a year to pay off loans were complaining about the changes, but its really giving medicine and doctors a bad name when people making well into the six and seven figures are complaining about. It shows a basic lack of understanding about the life of the average patient.

 

[NickNaylor]

To be fair, I hear this argument made often and I feel compelled to point out that it's not as if these doctor's and future doctors were turning down other high-paying jobs to get this gig because they wanted to provide this service. Maybe they care, maybe they don't, but for the vast majority of us there's no career we are realistically competitive/suited for that would pay the kind of average salaries we receive. This "sacrifice" of loans and etc is made with good knowledge of this fact, and I submit that we should not look at it as if future physicians really undergo some kind of terrible hardship.

I'm not arguing that physicians should or should not be paid less, but simply pointing out that up to this point their motivation to help patients is largely untested because this profession represents one of, if not the best options available to these types of individuals.

That's a very good point, but medical schools seem to do a good job of vetting applicants and filtering out the people that really don't give a damn. There will obviously be some areas of medicine that applicants prefer over others, but I think the result of evaluating the person during the admissions process has resulted in physicians that will more than likely be happy or enjoy SOME kind of patient care setting. I think the proportion of physicians that are truly unhappy with their career is very small. While most physicians I've run into certainly have gripes, I can't say that I've met any that absolutely hate their jobs.

I don't mean to make some kind of pity party for physicians. As you mentioned, people go on this path with the knowledge of high cost of entry, lots of time required to train, etc.. But that really doesn't (in my opinion) reduce the value of their work or somehow change their ultimate motivations for going into the field. Like I said in my previous post, I would be willing to bet that the number of people going into the field for money as their primary and/or sole motivating factor is very small. Most people have some innate interest in the science or are drawn in by the social/service aspect of the field.

 

[circulus vitios]

Now I am not saying this is the norm AT ALL, but just to share one experience...
I was talking to a doctor who is in a specialty that generally is considered shift work (so he gets plenty of time to see his family, isnt on call ect). He was complaining about how horrible the new changes in medicine reimbursement were. Since I'm nosy (and hes known me since I was a fetus no joke) I asked him how much, ballpark, he made. He said over 1 million dollars (he was a partner in his private group which provides for several hospitals). I asked how much his pay would be after the changes. He said around 700K.

Yes, he committed many years of his life to training to be a doctor, however I found this to be quite ridiculous. Now I completely understand if people who genuinely needed it, and were living on lets say 24K a year to pay off loans were complaining about the changes, but its really giving medicine and doctors a bad name when people making well into the six and seven figures are complaining about. It shows a basic lack of understanding about the life of the average patient.

You would complain too if you were facing a $300,000 reduction in pay.

 

[Druggernaut]

With all this said, I do realize that having to pay 2k per month for 30 years would scare anybody, especially people who think they are smart and deserve nothing less than a life with a nice house, nice car, etc. If those are your primary concerns, why are you going into medicine? If you really have a passion for something (helping those in need, or even just doing something worthwhile as your job), all of these would be secondary concerns. People with passion don't choose their career after having gone through cost/benefit, sacrifice/6-figure-salary analysis based on their impeccable logic.

Rational people will do some sort of cost/benefit analysis before making a huge, life changing move, such as going to medical school. It's nice when you help a patient out and they are genuinely thankful, but it's not so nice when they curse at you for trying to help them out. Just the other day I had a patient threatening violence against a nurse to show her how he was feeling if it weren't for the fact that I was in the room too. I'm not all about the money, but for 11 or more years of post-high school education while my friends save money and make families, I expect to get paid a good wage. Yes, I feel I deserve a nice house and a nice car when this is all finished. If I came out of school and residency with no debt but would only make $40,000 a year, I would certainly not be a doctor. It's not a divine calling, it's a job, even if it comes with a great deal of responsibility and potential for altruism.

 

[NickNaylor]

Now I am not saying this is the norm AT ALL, but just to share one experience...
I was talking to a doctor who is in a specialty that generally is considered shift work (so he gets plenty of time to see his family, isnt on call ect). He was complaining about how horrible the new changes in medicine reimbursement were. Since I'm nosy (and hes known me since I was a fetus no joke) I asked him how much, ballpark, he made. He said over 1 million dollars (he was a partner in his private group which provides for several hospitals). I asked how much his pay would be after the changes. He said around 700K.

Yes, he committed many years of his life to training to be a doctor, however I found this to be quite ridiculous. Now I completely understand if people who genuinely needed it, and were living on lets say 24K a year to pay off loans were complaining about the changes, but its really giving medicine and doctors a bad name when people making well into the six and seven figures are complaining about. It shows a basic lack of understanding about the life of the average patient.

I would agree that that's ridiculous, but at the same time he's taking a 30+% pay cut, which is pretty substantial. It's easy for us to say, "oh, that's too much money - he should get over it." But who are we to say that this person makes too much but that person doesn't? That's what ultimately makes me uncomfortable with this line of thinking. I don't want people to have the power to tell me what I can and cannot make. In order not to be a hypocrite, I have to return the favor.

 

[Kaustikos]

oy vey, what have I gotten myself into?



You can spin it anyway you want, but none of those are what I meant. What I meant is that you can choose to serve in a rural area (post residency) where you get paid more, serve the population in dire need, and get respect for what you do. Supposedly you can move to a nicer city after 10 years of doing this if you really prefer (your loan will be gone by this time unless you insist on having a very high standard of living). Doctors do have this option whereas people in a lot of other occupations don't.

Okay. I agree residents don't have a choice on where they live DURING RESIDENCY. I have more sympathy for non-traditional students who will be near their 40's when residency is done, but no sympathy for straight-out-of-college applicants who will be 30 when they are done.

Poor people don't brag about living poor. They talk about how living modestly works when medicine-bound college kids don't think they will have a comfortable posh life on their >150k salary because they will be 200k in debt. I have no idea why little pieces of you die when you hear this, btw.

With all this said, I do realize that having to pay 2k per month for 30 years would scare anybody, especially people who think they are smart and deserve nothing less than a life with a nice house, nice car, etc. If those are your primary concerns, why are you going into medicine? If you really have a passion for something (helping those in need, or even just doing something worthwhile as your job), all of these would be secondary concerns. People with passion don't choose their career after having gone through cost/benefit, sacrifice/6-figure-salary analysis based on their impeccable logic.

I want to vomit with anger everytime I read a post by a pre-med making comments/suggestions on salaries/income. 99% of the time, they don't know what they're talking about. You're not that 1%.

This idealized view of every resident moving to rural locations to alleviate the burden of debt/cutting costs in their daily living/whatever other naive comment you make is just adding more fuel to the fire. $1500/mo is a **** salary that I would never want to live off of for the rest of my life. I don't want to be poor. $1500/mo doesn't provide you with **** in the real world. Rent/transportation/food/utilities and then you're left with what? Nothing? Awesome life.... 👎

 

[circulus vitios]

You can spin it anyway you want, but none of those are what I meant. What I meant is that you can choose to serve in a rural area (post residency) where you get paid more, serve the population in dire need, and get respect for what you do. Supposedly you can move to a nicer city after 10 years of doing this if you really prefer (your loan will be gone by this time unless you insist on having a very high standard of living). Doctors do have this option whereas people in a lot of other occupations don't.

Nobody lives in rural areas because living in a rural area sucks. Work in a crappy hick town for only ten years? What a great plan, I can be in my early 40s before I start living the life I want to. You're right in that doctors do have this option. They have this option because the cost and length of our education is unmatched by any other profession. When this option is exercised it isn't out of convenience, it's out of necessity.

 

[GetThePointe77]

I'm not saying a 30% cut in pay doesnt suck, and that he shouldnt be upset, but when he complains it makes it very very hard for the average american to be sympathetic. It makes doctors look like they are only interested in a money, and arent very interested in the well-being of their patients.

 

[CheA]

deleted

 

[Longshanks]

I'm not saying a 30% cut in pay doesnt suck, and that he shouldnt be upset, but when he complains it makes it very very hard for the average american to be sympathetic. It makes doctors look like they are only interested in a money, and arent very interested in the well-being of their patients.

Yes, but it's still a 30% reduction in salary. What about payments he was currently making towards a house, a car, supporting children and their educational future, planning for retirement, etc? If someone making $40,000 a year had a 30% reduction in their salary for the next year, they'd be up a creek without a paddle in the financial mire they find themselves in. $700k is still a lot of money, and this person can and should live an extremely comfortable life if he makes the right decisions, and he's fortunate enough that even after a 30% reduction he has such a high income, but losing nearly a third of your income is still losing a third of your income and is going to change your lifestyle for the near future.