Why DOs are just as awesome as MDs.

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johnnydrama said:
What is poutine? Sounds like a solvent to me.
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haha...it does actually.

But yeah, here you go:

Poutine_Canada_Flag.jpg
 
SpecterGT260 said:
is it weird that my subconscious always reads your screenname as "HalfLing" like in LOTR so I just assume your avatar is a hobbit? I feel like that might be weird.....
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haha...how dare you.

If you haven't watched BBC's Sherlock (my Avatar is Sherlock, and its on Netflix) then we can no longer be frenemies.
 
Love the thread derailment here. Please...continue.
 
Which is better DO or Caribbean?
 
johnnydrama said:
SGU for someone with a high MCAT and low GPA who can change their study habits? Maybe.

None of the others though.
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I was playing devil's advocate at first, but please explain as to why you think this.
 
johnnydrama said:
Because my state appears to be far more friendly to SGU grads than DO grads.
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There you have it folks, johnnydrama says it appears so, therefore it must be so.

I'm transferring to SGU, the rest of you bastards are welcome to get in line behind me.

Truth be told, I don't think I want to practice on the Jersey Shore anyway.
 
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johnnydrama said:
SGU for someone with a high MCAT and low GPA who can change their study habits? Maybe.

None of the others though.
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What's a high enough MCAT in your opinion?
 
HM3 said:
I'm guessing he's in NY, but he does not make a good point even if it's the case.
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Remember Johnny is in rads too which is going to also be very DO unfriendly (acgme wise). I think in his part of medicine (specialty and location) he is probably right. Obviously this isnt the case everywhere though.
 
hopefulMD9 said:
Remember Johnny is in rads too which is going to also be very DO unfriendly (acgme wise). I think in his part of medicine (specialty and location) he is probably right. Obviously this isnt the case everywhere though.
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So SGU grads will have a better shot at an acgme rad than a DO student? I doubt it. My guess is that both FMGs and DOs will not match. :shrug:

Even if it were the case, how is a high MCAT any correlation to the ACGME Match?
 
HM3 said:
So SGU grads will have a better shot at an acgme rad than a DO student? I doubt it. My guess is that both FMGs and DOs will not match. :shrug:

Even if it were the case, how is a high MCAT any correlation to the ACGME Match?
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I agree that fmg's and do's would have an extraordinarily difficult time matching acgme radiology. DO's would have the AOA match to get into rads though.

I have no experience on mcat and step correlation. I was only commenting on why, I believe, Johnny sees DO's as worse off where he is.
 
I still don't see why a DO would be worse off than a SGU grad. I have no bias, and I'm interested in Osteopathic Medicine's future. I think DO students need to address that certain specialties are going to be a far reach relatively soon. Sure, as a pre-med/applicant/first-second year one can say that they're certain of what speciality they want to match, but what if rotations disappoint? Or what they want something else. Sure, it can still happen..but the avenue in doing so might be a tougher one.
 
HM3 said:
So SGU grads will have a better shot at an acgme rad than a DO student? I doubt it. My guess is that both FMGs and DOs will not match. :shrug:

Even if it were the case, how is a high MCAT any correlation to the ACGME Match?
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there is an established correlation between MCAT and Step scores and there is an obvious relationship between step score and residency. The propagated error ends up getting silly, but correlated correlations still correlate 😉

As a general rule, a DO will always have a better shot of matching something than an SGU grad. Carib schools are not regarded as regular foreign schools. I don't know the logistics of this at all, but if I were faced with such a situation I may look into setting up shop in another country and go after an MBBS or similar degree - I would suspect it is easier to come back to the USA going this route (assuming you can get into that medical school first).
 
HM3 said:
I still don't see why a DO would be worse off than a SGU grad. I have no bias, and I'm interested in Osteopathic Medicine's future. I think DO students need to address that certain specialties are going to be a far reach relatively soon. Sure, as a pre-med/applicant/first-second year one can say that they're certain of what speciality they want to match, but what if rotations disappoint? Or what they want something else. Sure, it can still happen..but the avenue in doing so might be a tougher one.
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Actually, this is what is known as a "bias" :laugh:

Understand that being biased isn't necessarily equivalent to being wrong 👍
 
SpecterGT260 said:
Actually, this is what is known as a "bias" :laugh:

Understand that being biased isn't necessarily equivalent to being wrong 👍
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Not really. Saying I have an interest in Osteopathic Medicine, therefor I have none in the Allopathic route would be biased.
 
SpecterGT260 said:
there is an established correlation between MCAT and Step scores and there is an obvious relationship between step score and residency. The propagated error ends up getting silly, but correlated correlations still correlate 😉
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Gotcha 👍

But the comparison was of High MCAT at SGU compared to one at DO. Is the assertion that SGU will better prepare for Step 1 than a DO? Probably, but will this put the SGU grad ahead of the DO grad?
 
HM3 said:
I still don't see why a DO would be worse off than a SGU grad. I have no bias, and I'm interested in Osteopathic Medicine's future. I think DO students need to address that certain specialties are going to be a far reach relatively soon. Sure, as a pre-med/applicant/first-second year one can say that they're certain of what speciality they want to match, but what if rotations disappoint? Or what they want something else. Sure, it can still happen..but the avenue in doing so might be a tougher one.
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certain specialties will be far reach for DO's soon, especially going through the ACGME. FMG's face the same problem, however, they don't have the AOA match to fall back on which is why they are GENERALLY at a larger disadvantage than DO's when matching certain specialties. There are locations where both will be at a larger disadvantage than usual. These are usually places that are saturated with large academic centers and where large quantities of top notch MD students apply. In these locations, PD's have all the U.S MD applicants they want and probably dont need to look at DO's/FMG's.
 
well..... that isnt actually how that word works... but if you want to attempt to exploit a non-existent technicality to convince yourself you are not biased, be my guest 👍

Saying that an interest in one negates an interest in the other isnt bias - it is a logical fallacy. The two are not mutually exclusive. To be unbiased is to be "interest free" 😉 I would say don't worry so much about some arbitrary perception. I am clearly biased towards MDs. However I do not agree with Jonathan on this one - you are better off going DO than you are going to SGU for a number of reasons. Aside from "matchability", there is also the attrition rate at carib schools making such a choice a ridiculous gamble in the first place.
 
HM3 said:
Gotcha 👍

But the comparison was of High MCAT at SGU compared to one at DO. Is the assertion that SGU will better prepare for Step 1 than a DO? Probably, but will this put the SGU grad ahead of the DO grad?
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I don't believe there is anything that will put an SGU grad above a DO grad across a large sample size. It is perfectly feasible that a single SGU grad could be better than a single DO grad (or a single HMS grad for that matter) but discussion of individuals is pretty useless here - this is why we use trends. PDs are aware that carib schools teach for the USMLE and stack their decks in order to publish better numbers. They don't want a kid who barely passed UG and scored 20th percentile on the MCAT who went to a 4 year dedicated program of "How to pass the USMLE". IMO the carib schools barely produce clinicians (at least from what I have gathered). There is more to being a doctor than the Step1.
 
SpecterGT260 said:
Aside from "matchability", there is also the attrition rate at carib schools making such a choice a ridiculous gamble in the first place.
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This is why I have said only someone with a good MCAT (as a proxy for intelligence and Step 1 score) and bad grades should consider it.

Personally, I would never have been able to go someplace that requires training in OMM. I would refuse to take it seriously.
 
SpecterGT260 said:
well..... that isnt actually how that word works... but if you want to attempt to exploit a non-existent technicality to convince yourself you are not biased, be my guest 👍

Saying that an interest in one negates an interest in the other isnt bias - it is a logical fallacy. The two are not mutually exclusive. To be unbiased is to be "interest free" 😉 I would say don't worry so much about some arbitrary perception. I am clearly biased towards MDs. However I do not agree with Jonathan on this one - you are better off going DO than you are going to SGU for a number of reasons. Aside from "matchability", there is also the attrition rate at carib schools making such a choice a ridiculous gamble in the first place.
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Let's not be ridiculous and pull out definitions. This discussion is not about that.

So what is your take on the matchability? Attrition rate is somewhat irrelevant to this conversation.
 
SpecterGT260 said:
I don't believe there is anything that will put an SGU grad above a DO grad across a large sample size. It is perfectly feasible that a single SGU grad could be better than a single DO grad (or a single HMS grad for that matter) but discussion of individuals is pretty useless here - this is why we use trends. PDs are aware that carib schools teach for the USMLE and stack their decks in order to publish better numbers. They don't want a kid who barely passed UG and scored 20th percentile on the MCAT who went to a 4 year dedicated program of "How to pass the USMLE". IMO the carib schools barely produce clinicians (at least from what I have gathered). There is more to being a doctor than the Step1.
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For those who get to do clinical training in the US, SGU actually has better clinical rotations than many DO schools.
 
johnnydrama said:
For those who get to do clinical training in the US, SGU actually has better clinical rotations than many DO schools.
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The key phrase there is "those that get to." does that mean not all SGU students get to rotate in the US?
 
HM3 said:
Let's not be ridiculous and pull out definitions. This discussion is not about that.

So what is your take on the matchability? Attrition rate is somewhat irrelevant to this conversation.
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I thought my take on matchability was already stated.

DO>carib

johnnydrama said:
For those who get to do clinical training in the US, SGU actually has better clinical rotations than many DO schools.
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The heavy pre-qualifying of this statement makes it kinda silly..... don't you think?

If I were a PD in an ACGME residency I would want additional assurance from such a grad that they actually know what they are doing and werent just pressed through some mold as a back-door into medicine. I am more weary of carib grads than DO grads. Maybe that is just me but I don't get the feeling that is so. IIRC SGU's match list was not terribly impressive.... of the several hundred students that they got to the match (out of the several hundred more that they just didn't let graduate or whatever it is they do) we had a near total match to non-competitive specialties.
 
hopefulMD9 said:
certain specialties will be far reach for DO's soon, especially going through the ACGME. FMG's face the same problem, however, they don't have the AOA match to fall back on which is why they are GENERALLY at a larger disadvantage than DO's when matching certain specialties. There are locations where both will be at a larger disadvantage than usual. These are usually places that are saturated with large academic centers and where large quantities of top notch MD students apply. In these locations, PD's have all the U.S MD applicants they want and probably dont need to look at DO's/FMG's.
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Sure, and when it comes to that point will PDs view DOs/FMGs very similar? In the same instance, I don't see DOs giving up in their attempts to obtain residency through ACGME and wanting to settle for AOA residencies.
 
johnnydrama said:
Yes, but it gets boring.

Self-congratulatory half-hearted attempts at rationalization of the DO degree like this thread are just the background whine of SDN. There are so many of them, if I check "Unread" posts on the iPhone one inevitably pops up.

To sum it up: I have nothing against DOs. They can be fine physicians. The distinguishing features of the DO degree and the AOA in general are BS, however.

Osteopathic manipulation belongs in the waste bin of history along with homeopathy (and the term "allopathic" for normal medicine).
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🙄
 
SpecterGT260 said:
I thought my take on matchability was already stated.

DO>carib
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I'm very glad there was the run around to get to that simple reply. Good job, great discussion.
 
HM3 said:
Sure, and when it comes to that point will PDs view DOs/FMGs very similar? In the same instance, I don't see DOs giving up in their attempts to obtain residency through ACGME and wanting to settle for AOA residencies.
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I think that, in the case I mentioned above, DO's and FMG's would be viewed equally. until there is a huge oversaturation of MD students applying to primary care ACGME residencies, DO's will be ok trying to gain those residencies through the ACGME match.

Of course all of this would be solved if the AOA would invest in improving both residency quantity and QUALITY ( more so the latter). Its for this reason that DO students push for ACGME spots as it is.

In the long run who knows, this latest step by the AMA restricting fellowship opportunities may be a sign of the future. All DO students can do is push the AOA to improve standards and opportunities.
 
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