Why DOs are just as awesome as MDs.

[Ost3oclast]

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way to steal my thunder! 😡 😀

Hahaha hey just a little quicker over here...

 

[HM3]

I think that, in the case I mentioned above, DO's and FMG's would be viewed equally. until there is a huge oversaturation of MD students applying to primary care ACGME residencies, DO's will be ok trying to gain those residencies through the ACGME match.

Of course all of this would be solved if the AOA would invest in improving both residency quantity and QUALITY ( more so the latter). Its for this reason that DO students push for ACGME spots as it is.

In the long run who knows, this latest step by the AMA restricting fellowship opportunities may be a sign of the future. All DO students can do is push the AOA to improve standards and opportunities.

So basically, DOs will be in the same bind that many FMGs find themselves into now. Taking all the unwanted primary care residencies in undesired locations. How likely is it that the AOA will improve education?

 

[SpecterGT260]

I'm very glad there was the run around to get to that simple reply. Good job, great discussion.

I cant really be held responsible for your hair splitting and not getting it the first time 🙄

 

[HM3]

I cant really be held responsible for your hair splitting and not getting it the first time 🙄

Hair splitting? I was opening up conversation between johnny, you, myself and whoever else would like to join on this subject. I couldn't care less about your opinion, no offense to you. But as you said prior, individuals don't mean much.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Then I miss interpreted your meaning in the "I'm very glad there was the run around to get to that simple reply. Good job, great discussion."

Sincerity isnt the SDN norm
my bad 👍

 

[deleted103644]

I thought my take on matchability was already stated.

DO>carib



The heavy pre-qualifying of this statement makes it kinda silly..... don't you think?

If I were a PD in an ACGME residency I would want additional assurance from such a grad that they actually know what they are doing and werent just pressed through some mold as a back-door into medicine. I am more weary of carib grads than DO grads. Maybe that is just me but I don't get the feeling that is so. IIRC SGU's match list was not terribly impressive.... of the several hundred students that they got to the match (out of the several hundred more that they just didn't let graduate or whatever it is they do) we had a near total match to non-competitive specialties.

You may be reading the list the wrong way. I don't know why they do it this way, but you can only see PGY1 results for 2012.

To see where people went for PGY2 from the class of 2011, just click PGY2.

Here's the PGY2 list:
https://apps.sgu.edu/ERD/2012/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY2&Count=-1

And yes I'm aware I qualified that statement. I would only recommend SGU to someone smart enough (but without the UG GPA for US MD) to end up in the top of the class.

Also, remember many people at SGU have no interest in residency in the US. There are Canadians, Europeans, etc there as well as Americans.

 

[HM3]

Then I miss interpreted your meaning in the "I'm very glad there was the run around to get to that simple reply. Good job, great discussion."

Sincerity isnt the SDN norm
my bad 👍

Ok so to be clear. The consensus is that an SGU grad has a better chance at ACGME residencies in NY that a DO student? This is assuming that he does not fall into attrition and can secure US clinical rotations.

 

[Ost3oclast]

So basically, DOs will be in the same bind that many FMGs find themselves into now. Taking all the unwanted primary care residencies in undesired locations. How likely is it that the AOA will improve education?

Who knows? Not me. But it needs to happen. Personally, I would (as of now) love to get into a gen surg residency. I will have no shot at an ACGME program but there are a few decent AOA gen surg spots. Unfortunately my dream of doing a critical care fellowship after isnt looking good either.

My point? All of us, whether MD or DO, need to realize that we may not end up where we want. We may not be brain surgeons or get into a top notch derm residency. But for me, being a physician is enough. Whether its being a PCP in my home town of 10,000 or serving as a trauma surgeon at a level 1 center, I'll be a doctor which is the greatest job in the world.

As long as the DO profession isnt looking like it is going to dissolve, im not worried. As of now I dont think it is. However, if the AOA senses that this is the case, you will see rapid change in the way they manage residency.

 

[SpecterGT260]

You may be reading the list the wrong way. I don't know why they do it this way, but you can only see PGY1 results for 2012.

To see where people went for PGY2 from the class of 2011, just click PGY2.

Here's the PGY2 list:
https://apps.sgu.edu/ERD/2012/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY2&Count=-1

And yes I'm aware I qualified that statement. I would only recommend SGU to someone smart enough (but without the UG GPA for US MD) to end up in the top of the class.

Also, remember many people at SGU have no interest in residency in the US. There are Canadians, Europeans, etc there as well as Americans.

fair enough. I agree to the part about only recommending it to someone I suspected of having the chops for it.

 

[HM3]

Who knows? Not me. But it needs to happen. Personally, I would (as of now) love to get into a gen surg residency. I will have no shot at an ACGME program but there are a few decent AOA gen surg spots. Unfortunately my dream of doing a critical care fellowship after isnt looking good either.

My point? All of us, whether MD or DO, need to realize that we may not end up where we want. We may not be brain surgeons or get into a top notch derm residency. But for me, being a physician is enough. Whether its being a PCP in my home town of 10,000 or serving as a trauma surgeon at a level 1 center, I'll be a doctor which is the greatest job in the world.

As long as the DO profession isnt looking like it is going to dissolve, im not worried. As of now I dont think it is. However, if the AOA senses that this is the case, you will see rapid change in the way they manage residency.

Well, you could always do ACGME Peds - CC, not surgery but lots of procedures. I mean, most people would say to you to think of Medical School first. But if those schools give you limited options in the end, it's not a bad thing to think of them now.

I mean, you could also go to SGU too 😛

 

[Ost3oclast]

Well, you could always do ACGME Peds - CC, not surgery but lots of procedures. I mean, most people would say to you to think of Medical School first. But if those schools give you limited options in the end, it's not a bad thing to think of them now.

I mean, you could also go to SGU too 😛

Hahaha nah no SGU for me! I'll take my DO or state MD and run with whatever I can get!

 

[HM3]

Hahaha nah no SGU for me! I'll take my DO or state MD and run with whatever I can get!

👍

 

[scotchtapetest]

For those who get to do clinical training in the US, SGU actually has better clinical rotations than many DO schools.

It's not about rotation site, it's about supervision in training.... Having rotated with SGU students, they get close to ZERO supervision and have no educational opportunities (quality lectures, conferences, etc.) because their contract only bought them a spot in the hospital but they have no dedicated faculty to teach them... Physical location doesn't matter when there is no one there to teach you.... When your sub-I is 8-10am and you get to go home afterwards, I don't care if you rotated at MGH, you still haven't learned anything.

Also, there are orders of magnitude more major academic sites open to DO students than foreign students (esp. carib) for fourth year electives.

Just as a background info for people joining us: Johnny has major issues with DO students/physicians/training/philosophy/etc. (and he is entitled to his opinions). It's one guy's opinion, don't take what he says as gospel, even though he thinks it is!

 

[wjs010]

This thread has me worried, slightly about DO. I, for one, think its unfair how much DOs are looked down upon. We go to the same med school as md. For 4 years. The only difference is, the omm, which most of us think is crap anyway, we are just trying to get in. Lettuce be cereal guys, a DO and md have the same chances to score well on step 1.

Md and DO are so closely related. I honestly don't plan on using omm in the future. I really want a pain fellowship. I think I can do this with DO

 

[toxicwombat]

It's not about rotation site, it's about supervision in training.... Having rotated with SGU students, they get close to ZERO supervision and have no educational opportunities (quality lectures, conferences, etc.) because their contract only bought them a spot in the hospital but they have no dedicated faculty to teach them... Physical location doesn't matter when there is no one there to teach you.... When your sub-I is 8-10am and you get to go home afterwards, I don't care if you rotated at MGH, you still haven't learned anything.

Also, there are orders of magnitude more major academic sites open to DO students than foreign students (esp. carib) for fourth year electives.

Just as a background info for people joining us: Johnny has major issues with DO students/physicians/training/philosophy/etc. (and he is entitled to his opinions). It's one guy's opinion, don't take what he says as gospel, even though he thinks it is!

Sage words. Thanks.

 

[HM3]

This thread has me worried, slightly about DO. I, for one, think its unfair how much DOs are looked down upon. We go to the same med school as md. For 4 years. The only difference is, the omm, which most of us think is crap anyway, we are just trying to get in. Lettuce be cereal guys, a DO and md have the same chances to score well on step 1.

Md and DO are so closely related. I honestly don't plan on using omm in the future. I really want a pain fellowship. I think I can do this with DO

We? Are you a Med Student? I'm asking this because it is important to realize you have a choice of applying MD. 😉

 

[BassTracker]

It's not about rotation site, it's about supervision in training.... Having rotated with SGU students, they get close to ZERO supervision and have no educational opportunities (quality lectures, conferences, etc.) because their contract only bought them a spot in the hospital but they have no dedicated faculty to teach them... Physical location doesn't matter when there is no one there to teach you.... When your sub-I is 8-10am and you get to go home afterwards, I don't care if you rotated at MGH, you still haven't learned anything.

Also, there are orders of magnitude more major academic sites open to DO students than foreign students (esp. carib) for fourth year electives.

Just as a background info for people joining us: Johnny has major issues with DO students/physicians/training/philosophy/etc. (and he is entitled to his opinions). It's one guy's opinion, don't take what he says as gospel, even though he thinks it is!

Johnny is a malignant anti-DO troll. His bias and hatred is evident in every post. His goal in life is to see to it that DOs are kept in their place, and better yet, unemployed.

(Lately he's been talking up SGU, so he might even be an SGU student or marketing rep.)

 

[SpecterGT260]

We? Are you a Med Student? I'm asking this because it is important to realize you have a choice of applying MD. 😉

most users have their current academic level listed beneath their name. His reads "pre-medical" 👍

 

[SpecterGT260]

This thread has me worried, slightly about DO. I, for one, think its unfair how much DOs are looked down upon. We go to the same med school as md. For 4 years. The only difference is, the omm, which most of us think is crap anyway, we are just trying to get in. Lettuce be cereal guys, a DO and md have the same chances to score well on step 1.

Md and DO are so closely related. I honestly don't plan on using omm in the future. I really want a pain fellowship. I think I can do this with DO

In the sense that any 1 particular score is a 1 out of 300 chance of occurring in a completely random setting. Otherwise this statement really has no purpose. Realistically, I have only seen data to suggest that MDs are doing better on the USMLE more often than DOs. This doesn't mean that DOs aren't capable of 270s - it just means not as many are getting there as MDs are Interpret that as you will

 

[deleted103644]

Johnny is a malignant anti-DO troll. His bias and hatred is evident in every post. His goal in life is to see to it that DOs are kept in their place, and better yet, unemployed.

(Lately he's been talking up SGU, so he might even be an SGU student or marketing rep.)

Wrong on all counts.

 

[SLC]

Wrong on all counts.

I'm not so sure anymore

 

[deleted103644]

I'm not so sure anymore

I'm a US MD resident and have nothing against DO grads that disavow OMM.

I think your institutions and organizations have some serious issues though, and I think SDN is very much a pro-DO echo chamber.

These types of threads pop up in my unread list all the time, and the level of self-delusion sometimes draws me in to respond.

 

[HockeyDr09]

I'm a US MD resident and have nothing against DO grads that disavow OMM.

I think your institutions and organizations have some serious issues though, and I think SDN is very much a pro-DO echo chamber.

These types of threads pop up in my unread list all the time, and the level of self-delusion sometimes draws me in to respond.

You're as anti-DO as they come. It's astonishing that you can't see it. You rarely provide any evidence to back your claims. A quick look at your posting history (past 3 days) shows multiple posts in


Why DOs are just as awesome as MD's
Email the acgme regarding new changes
carribean vs foreign school
Lounge Ladies Dating thread: Part Deux (?)


We get it, you despise OMM (without having any training in it). Enough already.

 

[SpecterGT260]

You're as anti-DO as they come. It's astonishing that you can't see it. You rarely provide any evidence to back your claims. A quick look at your posting history (past 3 days) shows multiple posts in


Why DOs are just as awesome as MD's
Email the acgme regarding new changes
carribean vs foreign school
Lounge Ladies Dating thread: Part Deux (?)


We get it, you despise OMM (without having any training in it). Enough already.

I have the same sort of posting history but get along with a good many DO students here. Just like Jonathan, I have 1 or 2 major pet peeves when it comes to these topics. Since they are also the most heavily employed by people assuaging insecurities on a professional board, we end up quite active in such threads

From what I have seen he only has an issue with OMM and the irrational defense of non-evidence based treatments. I honestly havent seen him get too worked up about much else.

 

[deleted103644]

I have the same sort of posting history but get along with a good many DO students here. Just like Jonathan, I have 1 or 2 major pet peeves when it comes to these topics. Since they are also the most heavily employed by people assuaging insecurities on a professional board, we end up quite active in such threads

From what I have seen he only has an issue with OMM and the irrational defense of non-evidence based treatments. I honestly havent seen him get too worked up about much else.

Yup.

My only other cardinal sin for the DO forums is suggesting good foreign schools are occasionally the better option.

People in this forum tend to be really insecure, so they take anything that questions the infallibility of the DO degree as a personal affront.

 

[HockeyDr09]

I have the same sort of posting history but get along with a good many DO students here. Just like Jonathan, I have 1 or 2 major pet peeves when it comes to these topics. Since they are also the most heavily employed by people assuaging insecurities on a professional board, we end up quite active in such threads

From what I have seen he only has an issue with OMM and the irrational defense of non-evidence based treatments. I honestly havent seen him get too worked up about much else.

Truthfully, I do not have the time or inclination to physically read the specifics of his posting history, but I assure you it's about far more than just OMM. Along with OMM he bashes virtually all D.O residencies, most D.O schools educational standards, along with a large majority of D.O rotation sites. I'm hoping you see the trend here?

Yup.

My only other cardinal sin for the DO forums is suggesting good foreign schools are occasionally the better option.

People in this forum tend to be really insecure, so they take anything that questions the infallibility of the DO degree as a personal affront.

Honestly, it's not a personal affront. I'm well aware that most of your comments are incorrect, and more importantly factually inaccurate (especially when talking about choosing a foreign school as a better option when considering residency placement). My concern is for all the pre-meds who treat your words as fact, and are deterred from pursuing a viable option for a medical education.

Take a look at the actual numbers and tell me that students are better off going offshore.

You're entitled to your opinion, as I'm entitled to mine. We'll leave it at that.

 

[deleted103644]

Truthfully, I do not have the time or inclination to physically read the specifics of his posting history, but I assure you it's about far more than just OMM. Along with OMM he bashes virtually all D.O residencies, most D.O schools educational standards, along with a large majority of D.O rotation sites. I'm hoping you see the trend here?



Honestly, it's not a personal affront. I'm well aware that most of your comments are incorrect, and more importantly factually inaccurate (especially when talking about choosing a foreign school as a better option when considering residency placement). My concern is for all the pre-meds who treat your words as fact, and are deterred from pursuing a viable option for a medical education.

Take a look at the actual numbers and tell me that students are better off going offshore.

You're entitled to your opinion, as I'm entitled to mine. We'll leave it at that.

Have I ever said all FMG programs are better than DO programs? Or even that on average they are better?

No, many (and most of the Caribbean) are scams.

A few however are decent, or at least can offer good opportunities to those who can actually handle the workload of medical school.

 

[HM3]

most users have their current academic level listed beneath their name. His reads "pre-medical" 👍

Your level of perception is amazing.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Your level of perception is amazing.

You asked him 😀. Seriously though, it is pretty entertaining watching you wield language as a weapon. It has this "baby fawn taking its first steps" feel to it

 

[DrWily]

This reminds me of those "And I Was Like" threads, except his were much more entertaining.

 

[HM3]

You asked him 😀. Seriously though, it is pretty entertaining watching you wield language as a weapon. It has this "baby fawn taking its first steps" feel to it

Specter, what is your take on the rotational experience of SGU students. Is what Bala saying true?

 

[SpecterGT260]

Specter, what is your take on the rotational experience of SGU students. Is what Bala saying true?

No idea. That is why I have refrained from weighing in on their experience. I am drawing my opinions from what I see in ACGME match statistics and the PD survey. 👍

Good luck with ur pre med classes btw. Its that time o year- back to skool 😀

 

[deleted103644]

Specter, what is your take on the rotational experience of SGU students. Is what Bala saying true?

It varies from site to site, much like I'm sure it does for DO students.

In NYC, SGU definitely has better rotation sites than the ones I've seen listed for NYCOM, they're even displacing NYMC sites I believe.

And on top of their formal didactics, some are pimped mercilessly by their interns...

 

[HalfListic]

I'm a US MD resident and have nothing against DO grads that disavow OMM.

I think your institutions and organizations have some serious issues though, and I think SDN is very much a pro-DO echo chamber.

These types of threads pop up in my unread list all the time, and the level of self-delusion sometimes draws me in to respond.

The trouble with self delusion is that the deluded feel so confident in their opinion that they no longer are open to honest rhetoric.

Sometimes, repeating the same opinion without modification over time means you have found an absolute truth. Usually though, it means you aren't being honest with yourself and have closed your mind to reality, which is a dynamic system.

My only problem with you is that it bias only contains hindsight...you refuse to look forward, and hardly even recognize the present, when you access Osteopathic Medicine.

Yours isn't a unique position, but it is unique that you are so young to have such an archaic bias. Growing up around many different doctors had shown me that there are significant jumps in each generations knowledge and opinions, but some doctors have the skill to keep an open mind an a current understanding of issues. The generation that commiserated with your view of DO's will die out long before you hang up your stethoscope (or gas mask 😉 )

I'd encourage you to broaden your horizons.

 

[SLC]

...And on top of their formal didactics, some are pimped mercilessly by their interns...

Johnnybravo is no intern, that I can assure you. He spends way too much time on this site crapping on DO's to be working intern hours.

Sorry Johnny, the game is up!

 

[SpecterGT260]

Johnnybravo is no intern, that I can assure you. He spends way too much time on this site crapping on DO's to be working intern hours.

Sorry Johnny, the game is up!

hes rads. Those guys work from home

 

[Mr Kenobi]

Wait...so DO=/=MD?

 

[UCFKnight]

Oh, One of these threads.. I put up a fight one time on a thread like this, but it wasn't worth it at all. Trolls for days on SDN.

 

[SLC]

hes rads. Those guys work from home

Ha ha, not during their prelim year they don't.

 

[deleted103644]

Ha ha, not during their prelim year they don't.

😉

And there is plenty of downtime on the wards for an intern with a smartphone.

 

[SpecterGT260]

😉

And there is plenty of downtime on the wards for an intern with a smartphone.

haha I think you mean DUMBphone! because you.... cuz.... you're... awww hell I just wanted to get in on the Johnny bashing 🙁

 

[SLC]

😉

And there is plenty of downtime on the wards for an intern with a smartphone.

Forgive me, I just don't believe you. An intern would have much more important things to worry about than all this incessant DO bashing.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Forgive me, I just don't believe you. An intern would have much more important things to worry about than all this incessant DO bashing.

if he isnt, his 6 year commitment to setting up this fantasy with all the appropriate post content at the appropriate time points would actually be more impressive than becoming one for real

I seriously wish people would stop attacking the supposed title of another poster as soon as someone has an alternative opinion. Honestly, this is the only real ad hominem attacks that happen on SDN, despite what pre-meds would have you think

Let's play some weird reverse devils advocate here and just assume you are right..... that means you have nothing to say to combat the points of some random dude.... personally Id rather be left without an argument against an intern

 

[wjs010]

Johnny. I'm sincerely curious. Don't you think the reason that md schools have higher entrance standards is because of supply and demand? More people want that md title , and do do I. But at the end of the day, theres nothing different about DO except that they have grade replacement, which just forgives some of us who messed up and had too much fun in college. But, same med school. Right?

In the end, the fuss is all about a title. But for me, I'd rather be a DO with a nice acgme residency and fellowship than an MD primary care.

I don't think very many people believe in omm anyway. Again, we act like we do, so the interview will go well and we can get into school

 

[SpecterGT260]

Johnny. I'm sincerely curious. Don't you think the reason that md schools have higher entrance standards is because of supply and demand? More people want that md title , and do do I. But at the end of the day, theres nothing different about DO except that they have grade replacement, which just forgives some of us who messed up and had too much fun in college. But, same med school. Right?

In the end, the fuss is all about a title. But for me, I'd rather be a DO with a nice acgme residency and fellowship than an MD primary care.

I don't think very many people believe in omm anyway. Again, we act like we do, so the interview will go well and we can get into school

If we are going to go down this road - AACOMAS has grade replacement which inflates GPA relative to AMCAS. However the avg GPA for DO schools is still lower even after this inflation.

Also, jonathan's major issue with DOs is that everyone pretends like OMM is a real thing to appease some dusty old men who still play with tarot cards or something to be honest, I was granted admission to a DO school well before the MD school accepted me. I told them no thank you and that I would be applying to PhD programs - such was my level of distaste for OMM. Many people can get past it, some people believe it - but I wasnt going to be either one of those so I figured Id forgo 4 years of frustration and do research which I also love doing. Luckily 3 months later I was accepted by an MD program. I am not saying everyone needs to be like me, but rather that the argument that "well we dont all really buy into it anyways" isnt really a valid counterpoint for some of us. In fact, that is the problem itself.

 

[deleted103644]

Johnny. I'm sincerely curious. Don't you think the reason that md schools have higher entrance standards is because of supply and demand? More people want that md title , and do do I. But at the end of the day, theres nothing different about DO except that they have grade replacement, which just forgives some of us who messed up and had too much fun in college. But, same med school. Right?

Except the licensing requirements are not as strict as the LCME and you are force fed pseudoscientific BS.

Considering the people behind worse schools in the Caribbean than SGU are now opening DO schools, the SDN consensus that the worst DO program is better than the best international program really doesn't hold water.

 

[SLC]

if he isnt, his 6 year commitment to setting up this fantasy with all the appropriate post content at the appropriate time points would actually be more impressive than becoming one for real

I've seen more elaborate fake lives constructed, online would be easy compared to them; no lie.

But in all honesty I always thought he was a medical student still. I guess he's a newly minted Intern? Well any internship worth it's salt keeps the interns so busy that they can't even find time to use the restroom. So I'm imagining that either he's not really an intern, or he's in a crappy program?

Let's play some weird reverse devils advocate here and just assume you are right..... that means you have nothing to say to combat the points of some random dude.... personally Id rather be left without an argument against an intern

It's not that I don't have an argument. It's 100% that I don't see how carrying on with someone so entrenched in this obsession with putting others down is going to be a worthwhile use of my time.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Except the licensing requirements are not as strict as the LCME and you are force fed pseudoscientific BS.

Considering the people behind worse schools in the Caribbean than SGU are now opening DO schools, the SDN consensus that the worst DO program is better than the best international program really doesn't hold water.

This part is true.... i always wondered why MD students have the 7 year rule with attempt caps on USMLE but there are no restrictions for the majority of states for COMLEX in terms of # of attempts or time frame for total completion.

This isnt the most tactful way to say this but.... I mean, you guys gotta understand how it smacks a little bit when the DO schools have lower admissions standards - enough so that the median DO matriculant would not be accepted into most MD schools and they also don't have the restriction gate at the tail end in terms of getting licensed. That is annoying

 

[HockeyDr09]

This part is true.... i always wondered why MD students have the 7 year rule with attempt caps on USMLE but there are no restrictions for the majority of states for COMLEX in terms of # of attempts or time frame for total completion.

This isnt the most tactful way to say this but.... I mean, you guys gotta understand how it smacks a little bit when the DO schools have lower admissions standards - enough so that the median DO matriculant would not be accepted into most MD schools and they also don't have the restriction gate at the tail end in terms of getting licensed. That is annoying

Not anymore.NBOME just enacted a 6 attempt max starting in 2016.

"A policy change to limit the number of times a candidate
can take any of the COMLEX-USA examinations was
approved by the Board. The following language has been
added to the COMLEX-USA Bulletin of Information for the July
2012 update.
NOTICE of PLANNED CHANGE to POLICY:
Effective July 1, 2016, candidates taking COMLEX-USA
examinations will be limited to a total of six (6) attempts for
each examination (COMLEX-USA Level 1, Level 2-CE, Level 2-PE
and Level 3), including but not limited to all attempts prior to
July 1, 2016. After June 30, 2012, no candidate will be allowed
to take any examination more than six (6) times without
obtaining approval from the NBOME"

 

[HalfListic]

to be honest, I was granted admission to a DO school well before the MD school accepted me. I told them no thank you and that I would be applying to PhD programs

so, you applied to DO schools, received admission and told them no thank you?

That's like the time I went to a restaurant, payed for a steak and when it came out...I threw it on the ground! "Such was my distaste" for red meat....haha.

...would you rather I call BS, or stupidity? 😉