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box29 said:
I think that was established in the first post of this thread.
Why DPM and Not DO or MD??
- Thread starter Osteodog
- Start date
I think that was established in the first post of this thread.
D
Dr_Feelgood
I just wanted to let everyone that I study magic at Hogwart's school of magic. I never wanted to be a wizard but I couldn't get into dance school. So after years of working at the Ministry of Magic, I'm quitting and going to Rob Anderson's school of break-dancing. I'm not good enough to get into a really school like Juilliard but our dance ratings at just as high. I hope all of you reconsider quitting this stupid dream of podiatry and enter the world of dance.
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ProZackMI said:
Hope all goes well for you in acouple of weeks. That was a powerful response thank you.
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Dr_Feelgood said:
You'll make a hot break-dancer.
W
whiskers
Good points osteo, but I'm beginning to look at professional schools in general as big jokes.
It seems that they are nothing more than a form of discreet union that limits the number of people who practice a profession which therefore keeps the members salaries artificially high by limiting the number of "qualified practicioners."
You will see that this control will not last forever and I suspect that the medical professions in general will see an increase in the number of professions who shall encroach upon md/do territory.
It's already happening.
What better way to drive down medical care than to let optomotrists do eye surgery...etc all they really need is the legal authority and an opthamologist to teach them how to do it....
It's only a matter of time until nurses (etc) have residencies in traditional medical sciences and willing applicants.....
But to answer your question "why podiatry..."
I think you already know.
It seems that they are nothing more than a form of discreet union that limits the number of people who practice a profession which therefore keeps the members salaries artificially high by limiting the number of "qualified practicioners."
You will see that this control will not last forever and I suspect that the medical professions in general will see an increase in the number of professions who shall encroach upon md/do territory.
It's already happening.
What better way to drive down medical care than to let optomotrists do eye surgery...etc all they really need is the legal authority and an opthamologist to teach them how to do it....
It's only a matter of time until nurses (etc) have residencies in traditional medical sciences and willing applicants.....
But to answer your question "why podiatry..."
I think you already know.
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I think if you want to be a DPM you really have to be set on it. One of the biggest benefits of being a MD/DO is the power to choose what suits you best. I started out thinking I would do rural family practice, then ER, then Anesthesia, now I am getting ready to graduate from a Ortho Residency and I am doing a foot and ankle fellowship. I think I have advantages over a DPM but that goes well beyond the scope of this thread and has been debated ad nausem. The biggest thing, and I think most DPMs will agree, you have to really really like it because once you start podiatry school its not like you can change your mind midstream and decide you want to be a psychiatrist or radiologist.
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I'm not worried one bit. I'm getting plenty of offers for 6 figure signing bonuses and salaries I only dreamed of. With the physician shortage looming I can honestly say that one thing I will never worry about is people other than surgeons doing surgery. They will never have the training to do a passable job, the liability in this country will never ever allow it and the machine that is in place won't be toppled. I remember just a few years ago CRNA's were supposed to replace all anesthesiologists. Never happened Anesthesia is again one of the best fields in medicine. The only thing I will worry about is how may PA's will I employ in my practice.whiskers said:
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dawg44 said:
You are absolutely correct here. Podiatry is a great profession as long as you know and understand your commitment. If you are not sure what field of medicine interests you the most, then MD/DO would be the best bet. Dawg44, have you had any exposure to podiatric surgeons during your residency training? If so, do you believe they are competent surgeons of the foot and ankle?
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dawg44 said:
Well said dawg.
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dawg44 said:
True...but fortunately there are people entering POD school who mainly care about helping people and are willing to specialize in anything to acheive their goal in life. Podiatry offers a more relaxed environment with a wide variety of different medical aspects within its specialty of the foot and ankle. Wound care, Biomechanics, Surgery, Dermatology, Radiology, and primary foot/ankle care. The profession lead a lifestyle that is very much desired. The average income for a DPM with a 2 or 3yr surgical residency (which everyone gets now) is over $150K and an average of 38 hours per work week. The average hours per week for MD/DO after the 80hr/week residency is 60hrs/week. Also, the Debt that DPM's have is a lot less than DO schools and the residencies are shorter and much easier to get into.
Although there are many DPM students who could of got into a DO program and few into a MD program, they know what kind of specialty their getting into and what to expect for their future. I have heard from many DPM students who would rather go to a POD school of choice, do a residency of choice, and be able to practice where ever they want, and have much less debt. Rather than going into some school that they will have to travel to places their 3rd and 4th year, go other places for their residency, and to become a primary care physician in an underserved area with lots of debt. I personally know of some primary care physicians who have struggled to make "ends meat" after paying huge monthly payments to their student loans. One of these Physicians are finally financially stable at the age of 40!
Personally I believe that Podiatry leads a very bright future that is financially lucrative, offers a great lifestyle, and can offer a great mixture of medicine.
On average 7 out of 10 DO students go into primary care medicine. Although I believe that primary care is very important, the future of this area of medicine may be overbearing for some people. With the baby boomers getting older now, there are not going to be enough PCP's to handle this problem. I just read an article about a month ago on how the primary care in the U.S. is on the verge of collapsing. More NP's and PA's will be jumping in this profession making more $$ than they currently do, however I speculate that PCP's MD/DO will be seeing more patients per day and end up making less $$ per year. The income they would make is great if they have no debt, however with the incredible tuition costs of some schools will leave these PCP's with $200K-$250K in debt. When you make $130K/yr and taxes take 40%, and after paying huge students loans it is pretty hard to make a decent living raising a family only on your income because your significant other will need to stay home most of the time to support your kids. Not to mention that they are on call just about every day they are not in the hospital!
DO School: AVERAGE COST OF TUITION +FEES = $34,600/yr
AVERAGE TIME= 4 yrs school + 1 yr internship + residency
*for example to do foot/ankle surgery as a DO would be 4yrs+1yr internship (DO only) +5yrs residency+1yr fellowship. THATS 11YRS
DPM's can do the same thing in 7YRS
DPM School: AVERAGE COST OF TUITION + FEES = $23,300/yr
Also, many students get at least $5000 to $10000 off their tuition each year in scholarships.
For example: my tuition this year is $12K, however the DO schools tuition at DMU-COM for instance is somewhere around $36K.
I hope not to offend too many people, however I believe that Podiatry has a very bright future.
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Formerly BladePlate. I agree with you 100%. When I entered DO school, I was set on becoming a FP. After the first hour, trying out my new "toys" in our physical diagnosis class, I was bored. I could not stand the thought of doing FP for the rest of my life and start to think about other specialties. I will be finishing my ortho fellowship at the end of July and will start to pay off my 300K debt. No joke. If I had to chose between primary care and podiatry, I would chose podiatry in a heart beat.dawg44 said:
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doclm said:
You bring up some good points but should know that those problems that MD/DOs are facing right now in medicine are no exception to podiatry. Im sure you know that there are people who struggle in every profession.
D
Dr_Feelgood
doclm said:
These numbers are off this years tution for COMs was 30, 210. CPMS was 22,840. I sitll get and agree with the message though.
While we were on the subject, I was interested in what the tution is like at all of the pod schools. These are from all of the school websites and are a mix of 05-06 and 06-07.
AZPOD 23K
Barry 24K
Cal 26K
NYC 23K
Ohio 25K
Chicago 24K
Temple instate 28K; outstate 31K
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Dr_Feelgood said:
Next years tuition at DMU-COM's for 2006-2007 is higher. I seen the total figures for this next comming year at COM. The total with their estimated living costs and fees was right at $50K.
There are a lot more DPM students getting scholarships than DO students. Podiatry now a days are giving great scholarships to many people. Also, it is much easier for DPM students to get scholarships from multiple places. When I was looking at DO schools, the only way to get any form of scholarship was to have a GPA of 3.5+ and an MCAT of 30+. In reality the majority of DO students do not have these numbers.
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IlizaRob said:
I think some of the struggling of Podiatry is with many of the graduates who have not been able to obtain a PM&S-24 or PM&S-36. How many new graduates do you think struggle with a 2 or 3 year surgical residency? Is it possible for someone to get a PM&S-36 and not find a good paying job?
I would be absolutely elated to debate with you anytime, ProZack.
It would be most useful for everyone involved if you wouldn't arrive at such sophomoric observations with such a paucity of evidence. Admittedly, the question does not fall along the lines of "which would you prefer, a Clark Bar or a Baby Ruth?". The question is clearly potentially volatile, but it's still just a question. If you think I'm doing this for the sake of "controversy" then it follows that perhaps you may leap to a similar conclusion with your patients (such as malingering, Munchhausen's) before doing a thorough H&P. Your patient would walk into your office and say "I think the government is tapping my thoughts". So, you would think based on only a statement that they're trying to get some workman's comp or sue the government for illegal tapping. Does that piss you off? Now you know how I might feel. You are obviously an intelligent person, but I find it offensive that you have concluded that my intentions are nothing less than true.
This statement "...but it's arrogant presumption for you to assume others share your sentiments or that your anecdotal evidence, based on the biased testimony of many fellow pod classmates and chums, is a basis to conclude that choosing pod over allo/osteo med is somehow an anomolous career decision" is a bit mystifying. When someone asks a question, is there an immediate presumption that this person assumes that everyone else holds the same opinion? Are all questions comparing one thing to another inherently based in arrogance? Hmmm, I don't think so. If I were to make an "arrogant presumption" I think it would be couched more like "I'm a podiatrist and now I'm in medical school. If you are going to podiatry school you're an idiot. When I become a DO I'm going to be better than all of you and there's nothing you can say to make it different. Please tell me what the Hell you were thinking by going to podiatry school?". That sounds arrogant.
Again, for your edification, I asked this question not for controversy, but because my podiatry experience profoundly affected me and I am always seeking insight into the reasons why someone who dreamed of becoming a doctor would willingly pursue a future in podiatry. OF COURSE my position is that DO or MD school is preferable to DPM school for those who want to be physicians! But, does that mean that I am asking the question just to twist the nipples of everyone on this forum! Am I not open to digesting the thoughts of another person who has chosen the path of podiatry?? Is there absolutely no way that I could possibly understand why someone would choose pod school?? Why do you feel the need to cast me as the anti-podiatry Beelzebub?
Podiatry was obviously the wrong choice for me, but it's obviously not the wrong choice for everyone. I simply do not know the reasons why someone would choose pod school if they are interested in becoming a doctor. This, in itself, does not imply that I believe that everyone who makes such a decision is a ***** or, otherwise, a deviant. It's just a freaking question! By your misguided logic, any question that posits a person making one choice over another is, in its root, controversial and arrogant! What you're looking for is a sensitive approach such as "would you rather join the Coast Guard or the Navy"? "If you could go to the beach or the mountains, which would you choose. I like the beach, but I'm interested to know why you would want to go to the mountains instead"? C'mon!
Your use of the word "syllogism" may excite some of the posters, but it's related to my question only tangentially. For the less erudite, it translates into something like "A=B, B=C, therefore, A=C". If your original false assumption that "The very nature of your question presupposes that allo/osteo med is the penultimate medical profession and any other health care profession, podiatry specifically, (and I used clinical psychology, pharmacy, vet med, optometry, and dentistry as other examples to illustrate my point) is somehow inferior" is correct, then perhaps you could view my logic as a syllogism. Unfortunately for your premise, I never, ever stated that podiatry is in any way inferior to anything. Show me where I said that and I'll give you a point for your sexy vocabulary. What I will say is that I find it hard to understand (but not in a pejorative sense or baiting sense) why someone who wants to be a doctor would want to be a podiatrist where your education and training will be less complete. Have I overstated this? Probably, but I want you to have it sticking to your cerebrum after you finish reading this. The cost is the same, the time invested is usually the same. But the outcome is different (of course, in my opinion). If someone spent $170,000, 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of professional school, and 3 years of post-graduate training to become a stenographer, would my question be more appropriate for you? Ah, now everyone is thinking that I'm equating a DPM with a stenographer. Only those who are reading this with their veins bulging out of their heads. I'm saying that the didactic education in podiatric medical school (when I was there) is medically inferior for becoming a doctor (deny that), the post-graduate training is inferior for a doctor (deny that) and the job prospects are tenuous at best. There are actually other points to be made, but the post would go on into tomorrow. And, please read this: I have stated on more than one occasion that PODIATRISTS ARE THE PRE-EMINENT FOOT SPECIALISTS AND ARE A VITAL PART OF THE OVERALL HEALTH CARE TEAM" That doesn't sound terribly disparaging to me.
Interestingly, I just received a personal message from someone who's in their 3rd year of podiatric surgical training and he verified the crux of my position. He was sick at his choice of podiatry and lamented the relative lack of autonomy he has (admitting patients, ordering IV's, etc) compared with DO's and MD's. He applauded my decision to jump ship and start from scratch. A rather fortuitous message to bolster my position (remember - not that pod students or podiatrists are the smegma beneath a child molester's sneaker, but that medical school affords a more comprehensive education with superior post grad training in the making of a doctor). If anyone is interested, I'll ask him if it's ok to share his post.
As far as your "top of the food chain" statement, this depends on what your interpretation of the "food chain" is. If you're talking about the world of medicine, let me ask you this. Do you deny that DO's and MD's have a broader, more comprehensive medical education than DPM's, dentists, pharmacists, etc.? Do you deny that MD's/DO's have a greater responsible for the welfare of their patients vs. PA's/NP's, etc.? Do you deny that MD's/DO's have a higher average salary than OP's/pharmD's?? Did I ever, ever insinuate or directly state that I thought MD's and DO's were superior human beings? You are totally misinterpreting me. Here is my feeling on this: MD's and DO's have more medical education and training and more overall responsibility for their patients. They have more rights and responsibilities in medicine than any other health care professional. They are compensated both financially and in the eyes of the "lay public" in a commensurate fashion. However, EVERYONE, from the scrub tech to the PA at your side is no better or worse than the MD/DO and their contributions to the overall welfare of the patient is JUST AS IMPORTANT. God, cut me some slack!
And, yes, getting a DPM or some other advanced degree before attending MD or DO skill is overkill. What does that have to do with anything? That just happens to be what my experience was. I had moved from Los Angeles to San Francisco and had already invested $20,000+ in pod school and felt trapped. My undergrad numbers and my MCAT were average and I wasn't entirely sure that earning an MS or something similar would help my situation. I thought, at least, with my DPM degree I could earn some decent scratch and possibly save some money so that I could eventually go to med school. For me, time is utterly irrelevant. If you ask me, getting an MD and a JD is incredible overkill. But, that's just my opinion.
And, as a matter of fact, I strongly believe that there are a large number of DO students who would have preferred to go to MD school. This is just ignorance and students feeling pressure from the public at large who isn't familiar with osteopathic medicine. I'm extremely excited at the prospect of being a DO and I'm chomping at the bit to educate as many people as possible on the virtues and benefits of being a DO.
I will grant you this: My question will inevitably invite feelings of anger and inadequacy. I am well aware of that. I suppose I could have asked it in a more PC way such as "why did y'all want to become podiatrists". But, since my question is more accurately stated as "why would someone want to become a podiatrist if they had the opportunity to go to DO or MD school?" I thought it more revealing and interesting if I expressed my thoughts in a precise manner.
FYI, my wife is a partner in a Beverly Hills law firm so I am well acquainted with many forms of debate both verbal and computer based.
No hard feelings.
It would be most useful for everyone involved if you wouldn't arrive at such sophomoric observations with such a paucity of evidence. Admittedly, the question does not fall along the lines of "which would you prefer, a Clark Bar or a Baby Ruth?". The question is clearly potentially volatile, but it's still just a question. If you think I'm doing this for the sake of "controversy" then it follows that perhaps you may leap to a similar conclusion with your patients (such as malingering, Munchhausen's) before doing a thorough H&P. Your patient would walk into your office and say "I think the government is tapping my thoughts". So, you would think based on only a statement that they're trying to get some workman's comp or sue the government for illegal tapping. Does that piss you off? Now you know how I might feel. You are obviously an intelligent person, but I find it offensive that you have concluded that my intentions are nothing less than true.
This statement "...but it's arrogant presumption for you to assume others share your sentiments or that your anecdotal evidence, based on the biased testimony of many fellow pod classmates and chums, is a basis to conclude that choosing pod over allo/osteo med is somehow an anomolous career decision" is a bit mystifying. When someone asks a question, is there an immediate presumption that this person assumes that everyone else holds the same opinion? Are all questions comparing one thing to another inherently based in arrogance? Hmmm, I don't think so. If I were to make an "arrogant presumption" I think it would be couched more like "I'm a podiatrist and now I'm in medical school. If you are going to podiatry school you're an idiot. When I become a DO I'm going to be better than all of you and there's nothing you can say to make it different. Please tell me what the Hell you were thinking by going to podiatry school?". That sounds arrogant.
Again, for your edification, I asked this question not for controversy, but because my podiatry experience profoundly affected me and I am always seeking insight into the reasons why someone who dreamed of becoming a doctor would willingly pursue a future in podiatry. OF COURSE my position is that DO or MD school is preferable to DPM school for those who want to be physicians! But, does that mean that I am asking the question just to twist the nipples of everyone on this forum! Am I not open to digesting the thoughts of another person who has chosen the path of podiatry?? Is there absolutely no way that I could possibly understand why someone would choose pod school?? Why do you feel the need to cast me as the anti-podiatry Beelzebub?
Podiatry was obviously the wrong choice for me, but it's obviously not the wrong choice for everyone. I simply do not know the reasons why someone would choose pod school if they are interested in becoming a doctor. This, in itself, does not imply that I believe that everyone who makes such a decision is a ***** or, otherwise, a deviant. It's just a freaking question! By your misguided logic, any question that posits a person making one choice over another is, in its root, controversial and arrogant! What you're looking for is a sensitive approach such as "would you rather join the Coast Guard or the Navy"? "If you could go to the beach or the mountains, which would you choose. I like the beach, but I'm interested to know why you would want to go to the mountains instead"? C'mon!
Your use of the word "syllogism" may excite some of the posters, but it's related to my question only tangentially. For the less erudite, it translates into something like "A=B, B=C, therefore, A=C". If your original false assumption that "The very nature of your question presupposes that allo/osteo med is the penultimate medical profession and any other health care profession, podiatry specifically, (and I used clinical psychology, pharmacy, vet med, optometry, and dentistry as other examples to illustrate my point) is somehow inferior" is correct, then perhaps you could view my logic as a syllogism. Unfortunately for your premise, I never, ever stated that podiatry is in any way inferior to anything. Show me where I said that and I'll give you a point for your sexy vocabulary. What I will say is that I find it hard to understand (but not in a pejorative sense or baiting sense) why someone who wants to be a doctor would want to be a podiatrist where your education and training will be less complete. Have I overstated this? Probably, but I want you to have it sticking to your cerebrum after you finish reading this. The cost is the same, the time invested is usually the same. But the outcome is different (of course, in my opinion). If someone spent $170,000, 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of professional school, and 3 years of post-graduate training to become a stenographer, would my question be more appropriate for you? Ah, now everyone is thinking that I'm equating a DPM with a stenographer. Only those who are reading this with their veins bulging out of their heads. I'm saying that the didactic education in podiatric medical school (when I was there) is medically inferior for becoming a doctor (deny that), the post-graduate training is inferior for a doctor (deny that) and the job prospects are tenuous at best. There are actually other points to be made, but the post would go on into tomorrow. And, please read this: I have stated on more than one occasion that PODIATRISTS ARE THE PRE-EMINENT FOOT SPECIALISTS AND ARE A VITAL PART OF THE OVERALL HEALTH CARE TEAM" That doesn't sound terribly disparaging to me.
Interestingly, I just received a personal message from someone who's in their 3rd year of podiatric surgical training and he verified the crux of my position. He was sick at his choice of podiatry and lamented the relative lack of autonomy he has (admitting patients, ordering IV's, etc) compared with DO's and MD's. He applauded my decision to jump ship and start from scratch. A rather fortuitous message to bolster my position (remember - not that pod students or podiatrists are the smegma beneath a child molester's sneaker, but that medical school affords a more comprehensive education with superior post grad training in the making of a doctor). If anyone is interested, I'll ask him if it's ok to share his post.
As far as your "top of the food chain" statement, this depends on what your interpretation of the "food chain" is. If you're talking about the world of medicine, let me ask you this. Do you deny that DO's and MD's have a broader, more comprehensive medical education than DPM's, dentists, pharmacists, etc.? Do you deny that MD's/DO's have a greater responsible for the welfare of their patients vs. PA's/NP's, etc.? Do you deny that MD's/DO's have a higher average salary than OP's/pharmD's?? Did I ever, ever insinuate or directly state that I thought MD's and DO's were superior human beings? You are totally misinterpreting me. Here is my feeling on this: MD's and DO's have more medical education and training and more overall responsibility for their patients. They have more rights and responsibilities in medicine than any other health care professional. They are compensated both financially and in the eyes of the "lay public" in a commensurate fashion. However, EVERYONE, from the scrub tech to the PA at your side is no better or worse than the MD/DO and their contributions to the overall welfare of the patient is JUST AS IMPORTANT. God, cut me some slack!
And, yes, getting a DPM or some other advanced degree before attending MD or DO skill is overkill. What does that have to do with anything? That just happens to be what my experience was. I had moved from Los Angeles to San Francisco and had already invested $20,000+ in pod school and felt trapped. My undergrad numbers and my MCAT were average and I wasn't entirely sure that earning an MS or something similar would help my situation. I thought, at least, with my DPM degree I could earn some decent scratch and possibly save some money so that I could eventually go to med school. For me, time is utterly irrelevant. If you ask me, getting an MD and a JD is incredible overkill. But, that's just my opinion.
And, as a matter of fact, I strongly believe that there are a large number of DO students who would have preferred to go to MD school. This is just ignorance and students feeling pressure from the public at large who isn't familiar with osteopathic medicine. I'm extremely excited at the prospect of being a DO and I'm chomping at the bit to educate as many people as possible on the virtues and benefits of being a DO.
I will grant you this: My question will inevitably invite feelings of anger and inadequacy. I am well aware of that. I suppose I could have asked it in a more PC way such as "why did y'all want to become podiatrists". But, since my question is more accurately stated as "why would someone want to become a podiatrist if they had the opportunity to go to DO or MD school?" I thought it more revealing and interesting if I expressed my thoughts in a precise manner.
FYI, my wife is a partner in a Beverly Hills law firm so I am well acquainted with many forms of debate both verbal and computer based.
No hard feelings.
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Osteodog said:
Dude...Get over it and go home....
DOCLM -
Even though I'm fairly exhausted from replying to ProZack, I just had to address a few of your statements.
What do you mean by this - "Podiatry offers a more relaxed environment with a wide variety of different medical aspects within its specialty of the foot and ankle. Wound care, Biomechanics, Surgery, Dermatology, Radiology, and primary foot/ankle care." What's a "more relaxed environment"? I was a podiatrist and I know many, many other podiatrists. The office based practice of a podiatrist in absolutely no different in terms of headaches, stress, cost, etc. than any other medical practice. If you're referring to the pods who don't have a lot of business (of which I know of several) then I guess you're partially correct.
Please show me the stats that most pod students get a 2 or 3 year residency and average 150K. If you believe that you're going to be offered a salary like that with additional benefits/insurance/vacation right after your 2 year surgical, I am dying to know about it. This is what MD's and DO's are offered (except for maybe FP's and peds) fresh out of their residencies. I have about 6 pod colleagues just within a few miles of me (in Los Angeles) who haven't cracked that barrier and they're all surgically trained and have been out for 6 years. And, with an average work week of 38 hours? Dude, I hate to burst your bubble, but that's classic podiatry propaganda. How on earth do you think it's possible for other docs (MD's and DO's) to work a 60 hour week and average about the same income? FP's average about 130K, IM's average about 150-160. You're telling me that DPM's make more money in less time than these two primary care physicians? I think the truth is that nowadays, most pod students can get a 2 year residency with only a handful getting 3 years. At least that is what I was just told today by a guy in his 3rd year of surgical residency who PM'd me. And, every statistic that I've ever read states that the average pod salary is more along the lines of 120K. If I'm wrong, please enlighten me.
Let me introduce you to this site:
http://www.physicianssearch.com/physician/salary2.html
and this site:
http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_HC07000103.html
pointing out the average pod salary including the mean (124K) and the 25th percentile who grosses under 100k. And, there are more pods than MD's and DO's proportionally who are obliged to run their own practices which cuts deeper into your earnings (I did it - I know).
The debt is less and the residencies are shorter? Huh? I just looked up the tuition of your school (Scholl) and it said 21-22K. In 2002 the average cost for a medical education was about 15k for a public school and 31k for a private one. Even with increases over the last few years it looks kind of similar on average to me. And the residencies are shorter? Well, a 3 year surgical is the same as a 3 year FP or a 3 year peds or a 3 year IM. And pod residencies are "easier to get into"? What are you talking about?? This just doesn't make any basic sense! If you're doing more residency years than 3 years as an MD or DO you're going to get compensated for it (like 200+k for cards, 200+k for rads, 200+k for ortho, etc.). And, again, from every statistic I've ever seen, almost all of these medical specialties make more on the average than a DPM. Further, these docs will actually be offered these salaries after their residencies whereas I don't believe this is true for newly minted DPM's. Now, my information is culled from colleagues, the internet and based on my own experiences from 5.5 years ago, so things may have improved drastically. Show me where all of the jobs are that are offering these packages. And, you're telling me that a 3 year surgical residency isn't challenging and doesn't have long hours? Wow! Things have really changed!
"I have heard from many DPM students who would rather go to a POD school of choice, do a residency of choice, and be able to practice where ever they want, and have much less debt. Rather than going into some school that they will have to travel to places their 3rd and 4th year, go other places for their residency, and to become a primary care physician in an underserved area with lots of debt." There's a lot of generalizations there. What does "pod school of choice" mean? Is this opposed to MD and DO applicants who don't have a choice? Do you mean that most pod applicants get into every school they applied to so they can pick from the lot? That sounds more accurate. Are you also telling me that pod students don't travel during their 3rd and 4th years? God, I hope that's not true. Even in my day we traveled all around the country. Do you think it's better to stay in one town to do your clinicals? Pod students don't "go to other places" for their residencies? Please explain. You think that PCP's all go to underserved areas to practice medicine? And, by extension, you think that pods can pick and choose where they want to practice? Well, the only thing right about that statement is that you can pick anywhere you want to live and work, but it doesn't guarantee you making a living.
"however I speculate that PCP's MD/DO will be seeing more patients per day and end up making less $$ per year" All I can to that statement is, "wow".
You don't think that pods are going to have to take care of these same baby boomers? You think there's not going to be enough PCP's? Um, aren't there a whole lot less DPM's than PCP's out there? And, I mean a WHOLE lot less. How does that logic hold up? And, "Not to mention that they are on call just about every day they are not in the hospital!"...Ok, more fallacy. You don't think that podiatrists can be on call? Do you think that all DO's and MD's take call or, for that matter, are hospitalists?
This is a good one:
"for example to do foot/ankle surgery as a DO would be 4yrs+1yr internship (DO only) +5yrs residency+1yr fellowship. THATS 11YRS
DPM's can do the same thing in 7YRS"
DPM's are not doing the "same thing" as orthopods. And, DPM's are not as broadly trained in medicine and orthopedics as an orthopedist.
Sorry to sound off, but so much of what you believe sounds like podiatry propaganda. I know that makes you mad, but everything you wrote is exactly the same crap that I heard when I went to school 12 years ago!
Even though I'm fairly exhausted from replying to ProZack, I just had to address a few of your statements.
What do you mean by this - "Podiatry offers a more relaxed environment with a wide variety of different medical aspects within its specialty of the foot and ankle. Wound care, Biomechanics, Surgery, Dermatology, Radiology, and primary foot/ankle care." What's a "more relaxed environment"? I was a podiatrist and I know many, many other podiatrists. The office based practice of a podiatrist in absolutely no different in terms of headaches, stress, cost, etc. than any other medical practice. If you're referring to the pods who don't have a lot of business (of which I know of several) then I guess you're partially correct.
Please show me the stats that most pod students get a 2 or 3 year residency and average 150K. If you believe that you're going to be offered a salary like that with additional benefits/insurance/vacation right after your 2 year surgical, I am dying to know about it. This is what MD's and DO's are offered (except for maybe FP's and peds) fresh out of their residencies. I have about 6 pod colleagues just within a few miles of me (in Los Angeles) who haven't cracked that barrier and they're all surgically trained and have been out for 6 years. And, with an average work week of 38 hours? Dude, I hate to burst your bubble, but that's classic podiatry propaganda. How on earth do you think it's possible for other docs (MD's and DO's) to work a 60 hour week and average about the same income? FP's average about 130K, IM's average about 150-160. You're telling me that DPM's make more money in less time than these two primary care physicians? I think the truth is that nowadays, most pod students can get a 2 year residency with only a handful getting 3 years. At least that is what I was just told today by a guy in his 3rd year of surgical residency who PM'd me. And, every statistic that I've ever read states that the average pod salary is more along the lines of 120K. If I'm wrong, please enlighten me.
Let me introduce you to this site:
http://www.physicianssearch.com/physician/salary2.html
and this site:
http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_HC07000103.html
pointing out the average pod salary including the mean (124K) and the 25th percentile who grosses under 100k. And, there are more pods than MD's and DO's proportionally who are obliged to run their own practices which cuts deeper into your earnings (I did it - I know).
The debt is less and the residencies are shorter? Huh? I just looked up the tuition of your school (Scholl) and it said 21-22K. In 2002 the average cost for a medical education was about 15k for a public school and 31k for a private one. Even with increases over the last few years it looks kind of similar on average to me. And the residencies are shorter? Well, a 3 year surgical is the same as a 3 year FP or a 3 year peds or a 3 year IM. And pod residencies are "easier to get into"? What are you talking about?? This just doesn't make any basic sense! If you're doing more residency years than 3 years as an MD or DO you're going to get compensated for it (like 200+k for cards, 200+k for rads, 200+k for ortho, etc.). And, again, from every statistic I've ever seen, almost all of these medical specialties make more on the average than a DPM. Further, these docs will actually be offered these salaries after their residencies whereas I don't believe this is true for newly minted DPM's. Now, my information is culled from colleagues, the internet and based on my own experiences from 5.5 years ago, so things may have improved drastically. Show me where all of the jobs are that are offering these packages. And, you're telling me that a 3 year surgical residency isn't challenging and doesn't have long hours? Wow! Things have really changed!
"I have heard from many DPM students who would rather go to a POD school of choice, do a residency of choice, and be able to practice where ever they want, and have much less debt. Rather than going into some school that they will have to travel to places their 3rd and 4th year, go other places for their residency, and to become a primary care physician in an underserved area with lots of debt." There's a lot of generalizations there. What does "pod school of choice" mean? Is this opposed to MD and DO applicants who don't have a choice? Do you mean that most pod applicants get into every school they applied to so they can pick from the lot? That sounds more accurate. Are you also telling me that pod students don't travel during their 3rd and 4th years? God, I hope that's not true. Even in my day we traveled all around the country. Do you think it's better to stay in one town to do your clinicals? Pod students don't "go to other places" for their residencies? Please explain. You think that PCP's all go to underserved areas to practice medicine? And, by extension, you think that pods can pick and choose where they want to practice? Well, the only thing right about that statement is that you can pick anywhere you want to live and work, but it doesn't guarantee you making a living.
"however I speculate that PCP's MD/DO will be seeing more patients per day and end up making less $$ per year" All I can to that statement is, "wow".
You don't think that pods are going to have to take care of these same baby boomers? You think there's not going to be enough PCP's? Um, aren't there a whole lot less DPM's than PCP's out there? And, I mean a WHOLE lot less. How does that logic hold up? And, "Not to mention that they are on call just about every day they are not in the hospital!"...Ok, more fallacy. You don't think that podiatrists can be on call? Do you think that all DO's and MD's take call or, for that matter, are hospitalists?
This is a good one:
"for example to do foot/ankle surgery as a DO would be 4yrs+1yr internship (DO only) +5yrs residency+1yr fellowship. THATS 11YRS
DPM's can do the same thing in 7YRS"
DPM's are not doing the "same thing" as orthopods. And, DPM's are not as broadly trained in medicine and orthopedics as an orthopedist.
Sorry to sound off, but so much of what you believe sounds like podiatry propaganda. I know that makes you mad, but everything you wrote is exactly the same crap that I heard when I went to school 12 years ago!
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Osteodog said:
Go work as a DO for a year and reply back to your previous comment about why would someone prefer to become a DPM.
I'll be looking forward to your reply in 5 years.
MD/DO is not for everyone my friend. We are not hoping to be a full physician after going to Podiatry school. We are just hoping to help others so much in one specialty, which will make the whole difference to the patient.
Good luck going Osteo.
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Osteodog said:
Please educate yourself about the current status of Podiatry and its residencies! How can the propaganda be the same, yet the field of training and placement so different within 12 years?
DPM's are doing just as complex surgery as Orthopods in the foot and ankle.
For the average income of DPM's, go look at some statistical data from the past couple years. I advise you to ask some DPM's from the Midwest area instead of CA.
I never mentioned anything about 3 year surgical training, especially about being challenging or long hours. From what I hear some have rigor which is very comparable to Ortho training, because the DPM's do some of the same residency!
If you would look in the current DPM residencies, you will see that all of the programs are converted into either a PM&S-24 or PM&S-36.
I am speaking about how it is harder for DO students like yourself to get specialty residencies like the MD's, unless it is a DO specific residency. In Podiatry school I know that I will be doing just as complex of foot and ankle surgery as an Orthopod. However, whats saying that any DO student can even get a surgical residency without being in top of their class, with stellar COMPLEX or USMLE boards.
As for the other questions that you had about my posts, I strongly encourage you to review it again and for gods sake do some research!
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Osteodog said:
Over the last two years, the lowest base I've seen a pod offered out of a 3 year surgical was 120k, the highest 150k. Those salary wizards aren't very accurate. There is actually a more accurate salary report in the last JAPMA (part of it is actually posted below as "? about income").
My man, you are in your mid-40's and STILL in school. Did you ever think that maybe you're the one who hasn't figured it out yet?
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Osteodog,
My initial reaction to your response was visceral and defensive. I immediately figured you were one of those poor souls with doctor envy. In case your psychiatric acumen is not on par with your orthopedic knowledge, someone with doctor envy is usually an individual who wanted to grow up and be a physician because doctors are rich and powerful and cool and have TV shows made about them. However, for whatever reason, this individual couldnt get into medical school, so he settled for something less and then went on to something else, usually a chiro, PA, nurse, etc. These folks tend to fall into two categories:
EGO-DYSTONIC -- Those who wanted to become doctors, but couldnt get into medical school, and later, end up bad-mouthing and hating physicians. These so-called doctor-phobes are the functional equivalents of homophobes (e.g., closet cases who end up gay bashing because it makes them feel better).
EGO-SYSTONIC Those who wanted to become doctors, but couldnt get into medical school, but later, after completing podiatry school (or pharmacy school, or optometry school, or PA school), go to medical school, fulfill their lifelong dream, and then denigrate those who did leave profession A (podiatry, for example) and enter real medicine. These folks put medicine (allo/osteo) on a pedestal and elevate the physician (and thus, himself) to godlike status. These ego-systonics then ask, whether directly or rhetorically, why would anyone willingly and purposefully enter profession A (podiatry, optometry, pharmacy, etc.), when he could become a God like me?
After re-reading your response to my post, I realized one thing your question was sincere and I may have come across a bit forceful in my answer to your question. For that, I apologize. I do not think youre either ego-systonic or ego-dystonic. The level and depth of your reply shows me that you really were curious about why one would choose podiatry (in this case) over allo/osteo med. Its a legitimate question, but I do not think youll get a sincere answer to your question because of the way the question is phrased.
Like I said in my original post, the more appropriate way to elicit the information you are seeking is by asking the right question. Something along the lines of Why did you choose podiatry as your given profession might have given you more into insight than why did you choose podiatry over allopathic medicine? Your question creates an inference that I addressed in my previous post. The inference being: anyone who chooses podiatry was also choosing medicine. Is this a reasonable conclusion? In other words, do you really believe that all podiatrists, or even most pods, were teetering between podiatry and allo/osteo med? Why not PODIATRY vs. PHARMACY or PODIATRY vs. DENTISTRY? Why only DPM vs. MD/DO? Your question only allowed for POD vs. MD/DO, not POD vs. (X). Again, deduction leads me to conclude that you are associating podiatry too closely with medicine, and by the very nature of your questing, assigning it a lower status than medicine.
Why do I conclude that? You made several points about similar education and training, but less scope of practice. You made several comments about lesser pay. You made several comments about less comprehensive education. Comments and points like the ones you made are indicia of your bias toward medicine.
Yes, you are correct, physicians receive comprehensive training that is unlike the training of other health care professionals. PhD/PsyD psychologists know a great deal about human behavior and psychopathology; they know a great deal about treatment and counseling, but they have not gone to medical school and lack the training that I have in neuroanatomy, pharmacology, and biochem. They lack the knowledge I have about systemic pathology. Clinical psychology, however, is a different field than psychiatry; there is overlap and similarity, but they are two different things. Same with optometry and ophthalmology. Same with podiatry and ortho. Two different forms of training with two different scopes of practice.
Im not a DPM and I dont know much about podiatric medicine, so I cannot comment on the quality of a DPMs education. I do know that a DPM is not an MD/DO, and therefore, by that very reason, its logical to conclude that there will be significant differences between the degree programs. If they were the same, pod would be another allo/osteo specialty, not a separate field. Of course a DPM is going to have a different education; its a focused program on one area of the body and how that area of the body relates to the entire body much like a DDS program focuses on the oral cavity, etc.
Look, you are where you are due to your own personal reasons and ambitions. There are many out there who learned about podiatry and never thought about medicine. There are those who debated about podiatry school or dental school (not medical school). Your question infers that one degree is superior to another and questions the motives of those who choose the lesser degree. While you did not ask that question in that manner, you asked it in such a way that a reasonable person reading your question could make an inference that you are making a judgment and not eliciting information to satisfy your curiosity. Your question may also cause many pod students and practicing DPMs to question their decision and wonder if they made the right choice.
We are all unique individuals and we do things for many reasons. Think about asking the question in a less judgmental way and I think youll find more folks will cooperate.
Good luck!
Zack
My initial reaction to your response was visceral and defensive. I immediately figured you were one of those poor souls with doctor envy. In case your psychiatric acumen is not on par with your orthopedic knowledge, someone with doctor envy is usually an individual who wanted to grow up and be a physician because doctors are rich and powerful and cool and have TV shows made about them. However, for whatever reason, this individual couldnt get into medical school, so he settled for something less and then went on to something else, usually a chiro, PA, nurse, etc. These folks tend to fall into two categories:
EGO-DYSTONIC -- Those who wanted to become doctors, but couldnt get into medical school, and later, end up bad-mouthing and hating physicians. These so-called doctor-phobes are the functional equivalents of homophobes (e.g., closet cases who end up gay bashing because it makes them feel better).
EGO-SYSTONIC Those who wanted to become doctors, but couldnt get into medical school, but later, after completing podiatry school (or pharmacy school, or optometry school, or PA school), go to medical school, fulfill their lifelong dream, and then denigrate those who did leave profession A (podiatry, for example) and enter real medicine. These folks put medicine (allo/osteo) on a pedestal and elevate the physician (and thus, himself) to godlike status. These ego-systonics then ask, whether directly or rhetorically, why would anyone willingly and purposefully enter profession A (podiatry, optometry, pharmacy, etc.), when he could become a God like me?
After re-reading your response to my post, I realized one thing your question was sincere and I may have come across a bit forceful in my answer to your question. For that, I apologize. I do not think youre either ego-systonic or ego-dystonic. The level and depth of your reply shows me that you really were curious about why one would choose podiatry (in this case) over allo/osteo med. Its a legitimate question, but I do not think youll get a sincere answer to your question because of the way the question is phrased.
Like I said in my original post, the more appropriate way to elicit the information you are seeking is by asking the right question. Something along the lines of Why did you choose podiatry as your given profession might have given you more into insight than why did you choose podiatry over allopathic medicine? Your question creates an inference that I addressed in my previous post. The inference being: anyone who chooses podiatry was also choosing medicine. Is this a reasonable conclusion? In other words, do you really believe that all podiatrists, or even most pods, were teetering between podiatry and allo/osteo med? Why not PODIATRY vs. PHARMACY or PODIATRY vs. DENTISTRY? Why only DPM vs. MD/DO? Your question only allowed for POD vs. MD/DO, not POD vs. (X). Again, deduction leads me to conclude that you are associating podiatry too closely with medicine, and by the very nature of your questing, assigning it a lower status than medicine.
Why do I conclude that? You made several points about similar education and training, but less scope of practice. You made several comments about lesser pay. You made several comments about less comprehensive education. Comments and points like the ones you made are indicia of your bias toward medicine.
Yes, you are correct, physicians receive comprehensive training that is unlike the training of other health care professionals. PhD/PsyD psychologists know a great deal about human behavior and psychopathology; they know a great deal about treatment and counseling, but they have not gone to medical school and lack the training that I have in neuroanatomy, pharmacology, and biochem. They lack the knowledge I have about systemic pathology. Clinical psychology, however, is a different field than psychiatry; there is overlap and similarity, but they are two different things. Same with optometry and ophthalmology. Same with podiatry and ortho. Two different forms of training with two different scopes of practice.
Im not a DPM and I dont know much about podiatric medicine, so I cannot comment on the quality of a DPMs education. I do know that a DPM is not an MD/DO, and therefore, by that very reason, its logical to conclude that there will be significant differences between the degree programs. If they were the same, pod would be another allo/osteo specialty, not a separate field. Of course a DPM is going to have a different education; its a focused program on one area of the body and how that area of the body relates to the entire body much like a DDS program focuses on the oral cavity, etc.
Look, you are where you are due to your own personal reasons and ambitions. There are many out there who learned about podiatry and never thought about medicine. There are those who debated about podiatry school or dental school (not medical school). Your question infers that one degree is superior to another and questions the motives of those who choose the lesser degree. While you did not ask that question in that manner, you asked it in such a way that a reasonable person reading your question could make an inference that you are making a judgment and not eliciting information to satisfy your curiosity. Your question may also cause many pod students and practicing DPMs to question their decision and wonder if they made the right choice.
We are all unique individuals and we do things for many reasons. Think about asking the question in a less judgmental way and I think youll find more folks will cooperate.
Good luck!
Zack
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All I can think about reading this post is that osteodog must go to med school to pay off all of those student loans he's got.
Why didn't you just do what everyone else does who dosen't get in on the first try and get a masters degree?
Why put yourself through that?
Why didn't you just do what everyone else does who dosen't get in on the first try and get a masters degree?
Why put yourself through that?
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Osteodog,
You made some very cogent and persuasive points in your very candid response. It seems to me that the original question you posed was more to yourself than it was to others. As corny as this sounds, life is a path that we follow to the end. For some, that path is illuminated and clear from beginning to end, and follows a straight line. For others (like you and me), it is dimly lit and twisted, going from A to D to J and finally ending at Z (wherever that may be).
You started off hoping to walk the path toward A, but for whatever reason, ended up on B (DPM path). You tried to walk along that path, but (and excuse the horrid pun), it didn't bode well for your feet. You used the knowledge that you gained from your trek along the B path and used it to gain access back to path A, where you always wanted to be.
Like you, I started off wanting to walk along path A (lawyer). I was a poli sci/government major at the University of Michigan. My father, a surgeon, told me that he would not be paying for me to attend Harvard Law, where I wanted to go, but would pay for me to attend any medical school of my choice. I veered from my chosen path, enrolled at the Medical College of Ohio for a post bac MS program in biomed sci (to get my pre-med reqs), did well, and then got into Michigan State University's MD program (they also have a fantastic DO program). I endured medical school. I did well, but hated it. In fact, to me, the first two years of medical school were rehash of undergrad basic science courses. No thinking, just regurgitating facts and memorizing structures and formulae. Internships and clerkships were fun, but grueling. IM/psych residency was hell, but that's where I actually learned how to become a doctor. All of that...and I still was not feeling right. So, right after I finished residency, I took the LSAT and started going to law school. I LOVED IT. Unlike medical school, law school is a real graduate program; it teaches you how to analyze facts and actually apply them to the law. In a way, law school was like residency in that it teaches you to take what you learned and apply it to a specific situation.
In February, I sat for the bar exam and will find out next week whether I passed. If I did pass, I will leave medicine and move over into law and not look back. I will move back over to my desired path, law, just like you will move to your desired path, medicine.
Unlike us, there are some folks out there who started off walking the path of podiatry. Maybe their mom/dad was a DPM, or maybe they were treated by a DPM as a kid/teen/student and learned more about the profession. For whatever reason, some folks choose pod, pharm, opt, dentistry, etc., as their primary path and never once considered anything else. It's not hard to believe, nor is it perplexing why someone would choose to become a DPM. During my residency at Wm Beaumont Hospital, in Royal Oak, MI, I worked with a few pods who did fantastic work. I saw one pod treat a 50 y/o woman with IDDM and peripheral neuropathy who had developed a pre-gangrenous ulceration with osteomyelitis and he did such a good job, after two I&Ds, that she kept her entire foot and recovered fully. Another DPM did a remarkable job thwarting a recalcitrant fungal infection.
So, no matter what your degree is, whether it's DPM, PhD, MD, DO, JD, or DVM, be proud of your chosen profession and do the best job you can. Make the most of your career. If you're unhappy, and you can put up with more school, fine, do it, but don't look down upon those who don't/won't. Also, remember one very important thing, it's not the degree you earn that makes you a competent professional...it's the person who holds the degree. I've worked with plenty of MDs who are *****s. I've seen many MDs treat patients like crap. If you are a competent, kind, professional, and caring professional, whether DO, MD, DPM, JD, OD, PharmD, whatever, then that is all that matters. It's the WHO, not the WHAT. You can't have one without the other.
Peace,
Zack
You made some very cogent and persuasive points in your very candid response. It seems to me that the original question you posed was more to yourself than it was to others. As corny as this sounds, life is a path that we follow to the end. For some, that path is illuminated and clear from beginning to end, and follows a straight line. For others (like you and me), it is dimly lit and twisted, going from A to D to J and finally ending at Z (wherever that may be).
You started off hoping to walk the path toward A, but for whatever reason, ended up on B (DPM path). You tried to walk along that path, but (and excuse the horrid pun), it didn't bode well for your feet. You used the knowledge that you gained from your trek along the B path and used it to gain access back to path A, where you always wanted to be.
Like you, I started off wanting to walk along path A (lawyer). I was a poli sci/government major at the University of Michigan. My father, a surgeon, told me that he would not be paying for me to attend Harvard Law, where I wanted to go, but would pay for me to attend any medical school of my choice. I veered from my chosen path, enrolled at the Medical College of Ohio for a post bac MS program in biomed sci (to get my pre-med reqs), did well, and then got into Michigan State University's MD program (they also have a fantastic DO program). I endured medical school. I did well, but hated it. In fact, to me, the first two years of medical school were rehash of undergrad basic science courses. No thinking, just regurgitating facts and memorizing structures and formulae. Internships and clerkships were fun, but grueling. IM/psych residency was hell, but that's where I actually learned how to become a doctor. All of that...and I still was not feeling right. So, right after I finished residency, I took the LSAT and started going to law school. I LOVED IT. Unlike medical school, law school is a real graduate program; it teaches you how to analyze facts and actually apply them to the law. In a way, law school was like residency in that it teaches you to take what you learned and apply it to a specific situation.
In February, I sat for the bar exam and will find out next week whether I passed. If I did pass, I will leave medicine and move over into law and not look back. I will move back over to my desired path, law, just like you will move to your desired path, medicine.
Unlike us, there are some folks out there who started off walking the path of podiatry. Maybe their mom/dad was a DPM, or maybe they were treated by a DPM as a kid/teen/student and learned more about the profession. For whatever reason, some folks choose pod, pharm, opt, dentistry, etc., as their primary path and never once considered anything else. It's not hard to believe, nor is it perplexing why someone would choose to become a DPM. During my residency at Wm Beaumont Hospital, in Royal Oak, MI, I worked with a few pods who did fantastic work. I saw one pod treat a 50 y/o woman with IDDM and peripheral neuropathy who had developed a pre-gangrenous ulceration with osteomyelitis and he did such a good job, after two I&Ds, that she kept her entire foot and recovered fully. Another DPM did a remarkable job thwarting a recalcitrant fungal infection.
So, no matter what your degree is, whether it's DPM, PhD, MD, DO, JD, or DVM, be proud of your chosen profession and do the best job you can. Make the most of your career. If you're unhappy, and you can put up with more school, fine, do it, but don't look down upon those who don't/won't. Also, remember one very important thing, it's not the degree you earn that makes you a competent professional...it's the person who holds the degree. I've worked with plenty of MDs who are *****s. I've seen many MDs treat patients like crap. If you are a competent, kind, professional, and caring professional, whether DO, MD, DPM, JD, OD, PharmD, whatever, then that is all that matters. It's the WHO, not the WHAT. You can't have one without the other.
Peace,
Zack
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I haven't had any exposure during my training. There are no podiatrists on staff at any of the 4 hospitals we cover. We do our foot and ankle with a couple of foot and ankle trained orthopods, so all I've seen connected to podiatry is referrals to their office from podiatrists.IlizaRob said:
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my debt for 4 years of med school is 80,000.doclm said:
every single place I have talked to has offered to pay off my loans lock stock and barrel. So loans is the last thing I worry about.
The lowest offer I have received. LOWEST is $350,000 a year. It was 4 days a week and 1 in 8 call. Most others between 400 and 500,000 with a potential for upwards of 800,000.
7 out of 10 DO's going into primary care is gravy for me. DO's refer to their own. Built in referal base.
I think there is plenty of business to coexist with DPMs and cross refer back and forth, but to go around and say my 11 years of training doesn't give me any advantages is rediculous. The proof is in the pudding in the offers I am getting.
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IlizaRob said:
Isn't this also true for MD/DO's? Getting into any professional program requires great dedication and, at least I hope, everyone who goes to MD/DO/Pharm/PhD/etc schooling knows what they're getting themselves into and is passionate and dedicated to that profession. I wouldn't want a doctor to treat me who just decided to go to medical school on a whim.
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dawg44 said:
You're getting some pretty sweet offers. It must be nice to FINALLY see your education paying off!
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doclm said:
This has got to be one of the most uninformed statements ever made on Student Doctor. The 5 year Ortho residency, and 1 year Foot and Ankle fellowship is well worth it monetarily and professionally. A foot and ankle trained Orthopod easily makes over 350,000 right out of the gate where as a 3 year residency trained Podiatrist can expect around 120-150,000 (which is pretty good by my estimations.)
http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm
Also I highly doubt the scope of practice between a Podiatrist is equivalent to a Foot and Ankle Orthopod. Who does the revisions? Also what is the case load of a Pod residency compared to an Foot and Ankle Orthopaedic fellowship?
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fernj1975 said:
I am just speaking surgically about the foot and ankle period! You guys are taking my words and generalizing them. Sorry I didn't specify more.
Besides full amputations what can an Orthopod do surgically on the foot and ankle that a DPM with a PM&S-36 cannot. Now I am just talking about the foot and ankle, nothing above there because our scope is very limited.
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doclm said:
If you are limiting your discussion to only the foot and ankle, I honestly don't know what a Foot & Ankle fellowship trained Orthopod can do that a 3 year surgical residency trained Podiatrist can't. Maybe someone can enlighten me.
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fernj1975 said:
From pretty accurate data, Pod residencies do a lot more (x3) foot and ankle surgeries than Orthopod residencies. Although I am not as familiar with the residencies as some of the DPM folks on SDN are, I have seen the statistics on the case loads and have also talked with many practicing DPM's about this. In our world, this is common knowlegde, however I believe the general medical community will be recognizing this more in the future.
The DPM I shadowed two weeks ago averaged a gross of $750K last year (he only has a 1 year surgical residency), and another DPM I know who has two offices averages gross $500K on each one per year.
One DPM I know who has a PM&S-36, is well known from all of the surrounding orthopods in the hospitals. Most orthopods will refer a lot of the complicated surgery cases to this guy, because he has so much more training in foot and ankle surgery than most Orthopods around that 60 mile radius.
Many DPM's in the Hospitals make the same as any other physician, plus the same benefits. I know three at the Mayo Clinic, who make the same as many physicians $150K, two of them are professors for the Medical School and teach the orthopod residents, but they do no surgery because Mayo is still old school when it comes to what orthopods and podiatrists do.
However, another DPM in a Mayo affiliated hospital about an hour away, does all the hospital foot and ankle cases for comprehensive care and some surgeries. However, he does not have a PM&S-24 or PM&S-36. So he works with an Orthopod together on patients, but when there is a complicated surgery the patients get referred out to the PM&S-36 DPM.
A very famous DO Orthopod in my hometown of Fairmont MN, has two highly trained DPM's to do all of the foot and ankle surgeries in his sports medicine clinic.
We should all get along, because in the future we will probably working together for the cause of increasing a patients quality of life.
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dawg44 said:
Thank you. Maye in the future you will work with some. Or maybe you prefer to not. Good luck in your career. Sounds like you have some good offers on the table.
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dawg44 said:
I am speaking about the DO students in general between all of the Osteopathic schools combined. Some schools like PCOM-PA, KCUMB, OSU, DMU, and Kirksville are placing their students in sweet specialties like Ortho.
However, what about LECOM, VCOM, PCOM-GA, and WVCOM? I think that most of the DO students from these schools will end up in primary care. If you look at LECOM's motto is to produce Primary Care Physicians. These are not Orthopods like yourself, which will be getting $300K+ a year and only $80,000 in debt.
I think it is great that you have done so well for yourself. Also, you will become a very valuable asset to society and medicine with a foot and ankle fellowship.
I personally think that some of the DO schools in the U.S. are a Primary Care mill. Who let some students in with lower grades, but in return will charge them 2-3 time more than an MD school, just to turn them into the primary care physicians of the future. Now this is wonderful for some of those people who want to do Primary Care. However, there is a lot those med students that aspire to get into an awsome specialty like ortho so they can have more professional freedom and make the big $$$.
With my argument, (well I admit I am not that good at it), it is much easier for myself as for others to get into a surgery like profession through DPM, rather than going to LECOM with my low MCAT's.
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doclm said:
I think the same argument regarding diploma mills could be made for some of the podiatric medical schools as well. I would love to see more of the podiatric schools set a cap on enrollment and thus create a more competitive applicant pool. There are DPM programs on par with DO or MD programs (obviously since they are integrated with them), but podiatric medical education needs to be standardized if the parity argument is going to hold any weight.
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gustydoc said:
I totally agree with you
The some of the DPM programs that are not affiliated with the MD/DO programs do really need to crack the whip on their educational standards and put caps on enrollment. Fortunately not many people are applying because of all of the negative hype from the 90's. However, you can see that Scholl, DMU, AZPOD, and Temple are on the right track.
D
Dr_Feelgood
doclm said:I totally agree with you
The some of the DPM programs that are not affiliated with the MD/DO programs do really need to crack the whip on their educational standards and put caps on enrollment. Fortunately not many people are applying because of all of the negative hype from the 90's. However, you can see that Scholl, DMU, AZPOD, and Temple are on the right track.
Not to insult you or anyone at any other school, but only DMU and AZPOD are truly intergrated with DO/MD programs. To me, that is the future of our choosen profession.
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Thanks I wouldn't be opposed like I said there seems to be alot of business out there for everyone. I plan on doing alot of general anyway. Theres no way I won't stop doing general fracture care and shoulder and knee arthroscopy, I like it too much. I want to have a cordial relationship with DPMs. I honestly don't see myself butting heads a whole lot with DPMs in my community unless they have a problem with me. And if they have a problem, then they can get bent.IlizaRob said:
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I agree some of these places are mills. Private med schools can be a big money maker no doubt. With the balanced budget freeze the residency spots are frozen so alot do end up in primary care because they have to go somewhere, which makes the specialty fields all the more valuable. Unless, everyone that gets into med school really means it when they say they want to practice FP in a town of 2,000 people during the interview. I think the people that get into specialties like ortho absolutely deserve it. The odds are completely stacked against them. It should be highly sought after and not available to just anybody that thinks they might like to go into it.doclm said:
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Dr_Feelgood said:
You are correct in that the DPM's at DMU and AZPOD take the same exact classes as the DO's the first year and a half. Although Scholl only takes some classes with the MD's, the DPM students there take other similar classes that the MD's take but in separate classes taught by the same profs. I think the Biomedical Science department at RFU takes care of both DPM's, MD's, and PA's for their basic sciences. Such as Gross Anatomy, Biochem, Path, Pharm,, Neuro, and Micro/Immuno.
I believe it is much harder for RFU to integrate the MD's and DPM's, because the MD's have a lot more choices in classes than the DO's do at DMU. Since RFU grants the MD/PhD, they tell the MD's what classes are required for their degree, but they have a lot more electives.
I am not sure why they don't combine some of the more basic classes together, but they seem to have a really strong curriculm. Also, as you probably know, they are really big on research. I believe every DPM school like every MD school, such emphasize research based medicine as a strong point. I believe that they are considering a 2+2 program like DMU and AZPOD. Currently they start some clinical rotations at the end of the 2nd year in the local clinic.
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Wow, There are alot of insecure and stressed out people out there...some of you need to relax a little, you'll live longer!
Anyway, this is my first time here but this is a pretty awesome forum...
Anyway, this is my first time here but this is a pretty awesome forum...
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doclm said:
hey doclm,
i'm not sure exactly where you got your information from, but Pod students at RFU do not take classes with the MD students. The MD students have there own department heads and professors, many of whom have been at our school for over 25 years. Scholl, likewise, have their own respective departments.
The only class that is somewhat integrated is gross anatomy, but even with this class there's a separate curve for DPM and MD students. We don't even use the same cadavers except when we covered the lower extremity (Dr. Bareither is great by the way). Good luck and let me know if you have any questions.
peace.
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Podman said:
Sweet, way to represent Ohio. I have a friend going there next year. Good luck.
