Why even have MD if DO=MD+ more training?

[NickNaylor]

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While I would agree that the attrition rate (true attrition as in leaving the school) is much higher at Caribbean schools... I think a large part of that has to do with the average caliber of student.

In order for the "modified" match rate to be 50% that would mean a significant number of people must be failing or dropping out. Even at AUC the true attrition is probably less than 15% and SGU's student base enters with even higher stats.

It's not as simple as students are simply failing. Caribbean schools have a reputation for either dismissing or holding back students that they think won't pass the boards or won't match. This is why the statistics they publish regarding match rate aren't reliable.

 

[Longshanks]

While I would agree that the attrition rate (true attrition as in leaving the school) is much higher at Caribbean schools... I think a large part of that has to do with the average caliber of student.

In order for the "modified" match rate to be 50% that would mean a significant number of people must be failing or dropping out. Even at AUC the true attrition is probably less than 15% and SGU's student base enters with even higher stats.

Various people have done this over the last few application cycles in the pre-DO forum and if you take the incoming class size for the class of 2010 at AUC (for sake of example here) the match rate ends up being 56%. Check out the thread that compares US MD to DO to IMG match rates in the pre-DO forum.

 

[Aphtalyfe]

It's not as simple as students are simply failing. Caribbean schools have a reputation for either dismissing or holding back students that they think won't pass the boards or won't match. This is why the statistics they publish regarding match rate aren't reliable.

They dismiss or hold back students that fail too many classes or fail the same class multiple times. They also hold back students who fail to pass a comprehensive exam that is supposed to be similar to the USMLE. Although it could be said that this is benefiting the school... I would also think that it benefits the student as well. Taking and failing Step 1 coming from a Caribbean school is to say the least... very bad.

They allow you to take the comprehensive exam (which was written by NBME) 3 times before dismissing you. At AUC after 3 failures they require you to take a Step 1 preparatory course and then you take the comprehensive a 4th time. if you fail again you are dismissed. If you pass you are cleared to study and subsequently take Step 1 within a 4 month period of time.

Various people have done this over the last few application cycles in the pre-DO forum and if you take the incoming class size for the class of 2010 at AUC (for sake of example here) the match rate ends up being 56%. Check out the thread that compares US MD to DO to IMG match rates in the pre-DO forum.

The thread statistics that you speak of are taking the NRMP released match results and using those results as the basis for the analysis. The NRMP match results as published do not compare any individual foreign school. Those match results report "US IMG" which includes ALL US citizens attending foreign medical schools. I would guess less than half of the students applying for the match as "US IMG" are going to the top 3(4) Caribbean schools.

Furthermore, the NRMP released match results do not include pre-match (afaik, please correct me if I'm wrong) which comprises a significant portion of successful "matches" by foreign medical graduates. (US IMGs)

Again, I would like to reiterate that MD > DO > CaribMD (on average) when it comes to matching. However, the misinformation spread throughout this thread and other similar threads is a little irksome.

I think I've (we've) sort of derailed this topic a little... but I hope to have corrected some misconceptions about the Caribbean.

 

[HockeyDr09]

The thread statistics that you speak of are taking the NRMP released match results and using those results as the basis for the analysis. The NRMP match results as published do not compare any individual foreign school. Those match results report "US IMG" which includes ALL US citizens attending foreign medical schools. I would guess less than half of the students applying for the match as "US IMG" are going to the top 3(4) Caribbean schools.

Furthermore, the NRMP released match results do not include pre-match (afaik, please correct me if I'm wrong) which comprises a significant portion of successful "matches" by foreign medical graduates. (US IMGs)

Again, I would like to reiterate that MD > DO > CaribMD (on average) when it comes to matching. However, the misinformation spread throughout this thread and other similar threads is a little irksome.

I think I've (we've) sort of derailed this topic a little... but I hope to have corrected some misconceptions about the Caribbean.

This argument IS the misconception. I'm not sure if you actually read through the whole thread (I'll assume not, otherwise you may not have mentioned what you said above). The argument that the data is from the NRMP and includes all of the "lower tier" Caribbean schools is a bad one, and has been debunked several times. If you want a specific example

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=10892131&postcount=83

Then you have this argument

I was explicitly talking about the "rare good" C-MD schools like SGU. You are mischaracterizing their students. For example, the average MCAT is 28 at SGU. The overall mean osteopath MCAT is 26.5 (fixed that for you) meaning that half of DO students score 26.5.

and then this argument

While I would agree that the attrition rate (true attrition as in leaving the school) is much higher at Caribbean schools... I think a large part of that has to do with the average caliber of student.

Which is it?

Caribbean students at the "top Caribbean programs" have higher MCAT averages so you're better of there.

or

The only reason Caribbean match rates are so bad is because of the caliber of students are so low. If you work hard enough you'll be fine. >90% of Caribbean students who graduate match, so you're better of there.

Both of these arguments are horrible ones. As several people have stated before, your degree is pretty much worthless without a residency. Who cares about MCAT averages. Once you're in med school the MCAT is irrelevant. You should be concerned with one thing, how many people entering the school get a residency. Whether you'd like to hear it or not ~45% students entering SGU/AUC will not graduate or get a residency. The data is there (and gathered from the schools respective websites, and the NRMP, I'm not sure where else people would like information from).

 

[Aphtalyfe]

This argument IS the misconception. I'm not sure if you actually read through the whole thread (I'll assume not, otherwise you may not have mentioned what you said above). The argument that the data is from the NRMP and includes all of the "lower tier" Caribbean schools is a bad one, and has been debunked several times. If you want a specific example

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=10892131&postcount=83

...

Which is it?

Caribbean students at the "top Caribbean programs" have higher MCAT averages so you're better of there.

or

The only reason Caribbean match rates are so bad is because of the caliber of students are so low. If you work hard enough you'll be fine. >90% of Caribbean students who graduate match, so you're better of there.

Both of these arguments are horrible ones. As several people have stated before, your degree is pretty much worthless without a residency. Who cares about MCAT averages. Once you're in med school the MCAT is irrelevant. You should be concerned with one thing, how many people entering the school get a residency. Whether you'd like to hear it or not ~45% students entering SGU/AUC will not graduate or get a residency. The data is there (and gathered from the schools respective websites, and the NRMP, I'm not sure where else people would like information from).

So first of all the number of entering students for 2010 match at AUC would've been from 2006 enrollment. The enrollment that far back was far less than it is today. Class sizes have steadily increased every year. Secondly, I would say the attrition is probably 15-20% in terms of people actually leaving the school.

So it's probably closer to 275 students at 20% attrition coming out to be 187/240.

Using the same logic as your argument... the statistics released about DO schools from that same time period also have a less than 75% graduation rate.

http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/2006statrpt/Documents/ASROME2006.pdf

The graduating class will always be smaller than the number of 1st year enrollments. For that given yearly snapshot.

Similarly, the number of matches in 2010 will always be smaller than the number of graduates in the year 2010, even if 100% of the students from the class of 2006 graduated.

Finally, I have never said that going CaribMD is a better idea than DO. In fact I've stated it in nearly every post I've made in this thread that US MD > DO > CaribMD. My argument is not that Caribbean MD is the way to go... only that its a viable option for those that do not get accepted to DO programs.

I've already conceded that the best chance of matching is to go DO as opposed to CaribMD.

 

[gravitywave]

So first of all the number of entering students for 2010 match at AUC would've been from 2006 enrollment. The enrollment that far back was far less than it is today. Class sizes have steadily increased every year. Secondly, I would say the attrition is probably 15-20% in terms of people actually leaving the school.

So it's probably closer to 275 students at 20% attrition coming out to be 187/240.

if you'd read the rest of that (very good) thread, you'd have seen that this very issue was discussed at length. it was agreed that the likely starting class of 2010 at AUC was 275-300 students. it was also discussed that the very high percentage of prelim slots present in the 2010 AUC match list continued to support a total attrition rate (matriculants on Day 1 -> successful match in a categorical track residency) in the upper 50s%. i'd also point out that, in light of the facts that the data for this cohort are five years old and that AUC has expanded in the time since, the quality of an average incoming AUC student likely isn't getting any better, even as the Match environment becomes more competitive.

Using the same logic as your argument... the statistics released about DO schools from that same time period also have a less than 75% graduation rate.

http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/2006statrpt/Documents/ASROME2006.pdf

nope. i think i found the chart that you misread in that document; suffice it to say that Table 2 on page 4 doesn't support a 75% attrition rate at DO schools. The appropriate data is in Table 11B on page 25, which supports the 5% attrition rate that is known to be correct for both US MD and DO.

The graduating class will always be smaller than the number of 1st year enrollments. For that given yearly snapshot.

Similarly, the number of matches in 2010 will always be smaller than the number of graduates in the year 2010, even if 100% of the students from the class of 2006 graduated.

Finally, I have never said that going CaribMD is a better idea than DO. In fact I've stated it in nearly every post I've made in this thread that US MD > DO > CaribMD. My argument is not that Caribbean MD is the way to go... only that its a viable option for those that do not get accepted to DO programs.

I've already conceded that the best chance of matching is to go DO as opposed to CaribMD.

no argument here, although we may have different definitions of 'viable.' i wouldn't go to the Caribbean, I consider it too much of a risk. we haven't even gotten into the issue of IMGs attempting competitive specialities in the allo Match, but that's the real subject of HockeyDr's thread. It's highly recommended reading for anyone interested in this topic.

 

[flatearth22]

This is as big a troll thread if I ever saw one. Coming on the allo board and saying that DO is better than MD? Seriously? Come on mods....do the deed already!