Why go to a top medical school?

[deleted1025488]

Well if you include $ and support system in the “fit” category, that’s completely valid. Personally, as someone with a great state school (ranked 25-35), there’s only maybe 3-4 schools that I would go to over it, namely like Harvard, Stanford, etc. But I’m not going to pay the extra 30k OOS , tuition, ditching family and friends, and going to a new city for like, UCLA or Emory or something like that, even if I somehow manage to get in. I doubt the prestige difference will matter at all.

But I would think it’s pretty dumb to turn down a t5 or something, imho.

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[preMedFalcon]

To each their own. If you don’t think going to a top school matters much, you don’t have to to go to one. Best of luck buddy

I definitely want to go to a top school because I know it will make my medical career easier (as long as I continue to work hard for it), but I also know that if I don't, I can still go to any specialty I want if I work for it. You see, not only do I think going to a top school is not that important, the top schools themselves and the residency programs think so too. If you go to a top school and think the name of your school will save the day, don't say I didn't warn you when you come face to face with reality. I don't know about you, but I'd rather follow the advice from those who will eventually be deciding if I should be matched or not.

Best of luck to you too.

 

[babagandu2424]

Top schools also open more doors for those MDs that forgo residency completely and pivot to life science consulting or finance. Been seeing quite a few individuals making the switch and most come from T20 med schools. Though, networking is still king in landing these opportunities.

Also, before anyone comments, these individuals start at a conservative average around $200k-$250k all in first year, with the ability to climb the ranks relatively quickly. Most of the individuals that pave a way for themselves in these roles will earn far more over the length of their career than a practicing physician (or surgeon for that matter).

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Top schools also open more doors for those MDs that forgo residency completely and pivot to life science consulting or finance. Been seeing quite a few individuals making the switch and most come from T20 med schools. Though, networking is still king in landing these opportunities.

Also, before anyone comments, these individuals start at a conservative average around $200k-$250k all in first year, with the ability to climb the ranks relatively quickly. Most of the individuals that pave a way for themselves in these roles will earn far more over the length of their career than a practicing physician (or surgeon for that matter).

This is true but it is important to remember that these careers are not “recession-proof” and are more stressful (especially finance) because if you’re unable to make returns for your clients/investors, firms will have no qualms about firing you.

 

[babagandu2424]

This is true but it is important to remember that these careers are not “recession-proof” and are more stressful (especially finance) because if you’re unable to make returns for your clients/investors, firms will have no qualms about firing you.

Of course! The hustle and bustle is a large part of finance. Though, if you’re good enough to break into these roles, you’ll have no trouble building an extensive network base to move around. Firms poach analysts/associates, etc., all the time. Not to mention the amount of new money and eyes on biotech/med tech is pretty nuts and the need for science folk in high finance roles will only climb from here.

And you can always go into the biotech realm, or settle in big pharma (which is very relaxed in terms of hours and well compensated for).

 

[tpjunkie]

Speaking now as a GI attending 2 years out of training, to some extent yes, for each step of the journey to practicing medicine the prestige of where you completed the last step of your journey matters - but the amount varies at each step. Are Harvard undergrads gonna have an easier time getting into medical school? Probably! They probably even get into overall, better schools (again, can only speak for myself, a non Ivy League grad). I attended a mid tier (state) Med school. We had plenty of Ivy League grads as well as public university grads but when it came to residency application your performance there and board scores were all that mattered. We matched very well as a class, all over the country. I heard at my own interviews that my school was well regarded (though I only applied fairly locally), although it was clear that my performance there was what earned my interview. I ended up at a mid-tier NYC IM program, considered to be a university program (bonus points to whoever guesses which, it’s not too hard if you know the programs and the fact that it was in Manhattan), where I worked my butt off knowing I wanted to match GI. This time I applied broadly, 72 applications, most heavily in the north east but plenty elsewhere. I got 16 interviews and clearly on the east coast people knew my program (2/3 of my letter writers were big names in GI with name recognition at all the places I interviewed), but in the south and west coast I occasionally got the sense my program was being confused with one or two other programs with similar/the same name, but for fellowship interviews no one really cares too much about your home program. Everyone wants to ask questions about your research and projects, and what your goals and interests are. As long as you train in a place that supports some kind of research (clinical is fine!) and you work at it, you’ll be fine. Sure, a prestigious Med school/residency/fellowship might have more opportunities for that, but it’s not the end all be all. If you make the most of where you do end up that will put you in the best position to succeed - and that is what everyone is looking for at the next level (whatever that may be)

 

[deleted1095841]

Which schools are considered "top" schools? Is it based on US News? Or is it the PD Survey results? Or some other list that lives on SDN? Please enlighten me.

 

[deleted1025488]

Which schools are considered "top" schools? Is it based on US News? Or is it the PD Survey results? Or some other list that lives on SDN? Please enlighten me.

Yes typically the top 20 on USNews but more realistically top 30 since those schools fluctuate in and out every year.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Which schools are considered "top" schools? Is it based on US News? Or is it the PD Survey results? Or some other list that lives on SDN? Please enlighten me.

For medicine T20 however things get a bit different when talking about medical programs that place students into other fields. For example schools with prestigious associated undergrad programs like Brown, Georgetown, Geisel etc are not considered top medical schools but still might place fairly well into certain areas because to the general public they’re seen as better than med schools like PITT, Baylor, USC (even though they rank higher for MD programs)

 

[Pshalt]

While the top schools are generally overrated, the prestige of going to one at any stage unlocks doors. This is true today and it was true 25 years ago. I've seen FMGs take difficult to fill residency slots at Harlem Hospital and because they became a teaching fellow of Columbia University, they built that into Ivy league careers. I couldn't get into Harvard undergrad or medical school by any stretch of my imagination, but I got into Columbia because I had specific research skills they were interested in. I did well at Columbia and matched at BWH in medicine and Radiology with average board scores. My year, 4/6 radiology residents at BWH came from Columbia. I turned down an academic Harvard position to work in private practice in tiny towns in California and still benefit from my "pedigree." Patients drive 50 miles to have a Harvard trained MD inject their work ravaged hips and shoulders or do a breast biopsy. I married a Harvard trained MD, and I still consult my former attendings and colleagues all the time. My peer group was amazing. It cost me $300K but was worth every penny. And I have to admit, when some consultant from a larger regional hospital talks down to me because I work in the middle of nowhere, I derive some pleasure asking them where they trained and then drop the H bomb. All that being said, I work with plenty of DO's and MDs from lower tier schools that are just as qualified and successful and happy. Just do your best.

 

[deleted1095841]

Yes typically the top 20 on USNews but more realistically top 30 since those schools fluctuate in and out every year.

Thanks! Is there much of a difference between T5, T10, and T20?

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Residency is a job, not school. When applying for jobs who you know matters far more than what you know. Anyone who doubts this hasn’t had a real job before.

This what going to a top school gives you, the chance to get to know quite a few people who know even more people in powerful positions (I.e PDs and Department Chairs)

 

[deleted1025488]

Thanks! Is there much of a difference between T5, T10, and T20?

At least for me I feel like T5 is distinct then everything else merges together as 'high tier' or whatnot. That's just me though, as an applicant, so.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Residency is a job, not school. When applying for jobs who you know matters far more than what you know. Anyone who doubts this hasn’t had a real job before.

This what going to a top school gives you, the chance to get to know quite a few people who know even more people in powerful positions (I.e PDs and Department Chairs)

Can confirm. But it matters for both. Why do you think every son or daughter of a politician goes to Harvard, Yale or Stanford? Surely all of them are not qualified.

 

[Bored_Conscious]

This has got to be one of the most pathetic threads I have read on SDN.

 

[jadfaweradfasd]

While the top schools are generally overrated, the prestige of going to one at any stage unlocks doors. This is true today and it was true 25 years ago. I've seen FMGs take difficult to fill residency slots at Harlem Hospital and because they became a teaching fellow of Columbia University, they built that into Ivy league careers. I couldn't get into Harvard undergrad or medical school by any stretch of my imagination, but I got into Columbia because I had specific research skills they were interested in. I did well at Columbia and matched at BWH in medicine and Radiology with average board scores. My year, 4/6 radiology residents at BWH came from Columbia. I turned down an academic Harvard position to work in private practice in tiny towns in California and still benefit from my "pedigree." Patients drive 50 miles to have a Harvard trained MD inject their work ravaged hips and shoulders or do a breast biopsy. I married a Harvard trained MD, and I still consult my former attendings and colleagues all the time. My peer group was amazing. It cost me $300K but was worth every penny. And I have to admit, when some consultant from a larger regional hospital talks down to me because I work in the middle of nowhere, I derive some pleasure asking them where they trained and then drop the H bomb. All that being said, I work with plenty of DO's and MDs from lower tier schools that are just as qualified and successful and happy. Just do your best.

I really appreciate your insight into the effect of going to a top school has on private practice. You hear often that school prestige matters in academics, so it's interesting to see that it also matters in private practice. I had a few questions if you don't mind me asking:

1. Is it significantly easier to get patients in private practice when coming from a top school? In your peer group, do patients specifically ask to see you over physicians from lower-tier schools (if there are any in your group)?

2. Do certain private practice groups recruit only from top schools? If so, is medical school reputation or residency/fellowship reputation more important?

 

[Lucca]

This has got to be one of the most pathetic threads I have read on SDN.

oh yea?

Would you eat a poop hot dog to gain admission to your first choice school?

I'm talkin' foot long. I know I would.

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[Coldwater_Adler]

As someone who fought tooth and nail to get into a DO program that looks good but isn't top tier, yall make me nervous. I'm just gonna keep fighting and scraping my way, but, fortunately, I wanna do psychiatry, which I have heard is not too competitive of a specialty.

 

[DNAJB6]

I really appreciate your insight into the effect of going to a top school has on private practice. You hear often that school prestige matters in academics, so it's interesting to see that it also matters in private practice. I had a few questions if you don't mind me asking:

1. Is it significantly easier to get patients in private practice when coming from a top school? In your peer group, do patients specifically ask to see you over physicians from lower-tier schools (if there are any in your group)?

2. Do certain private practice groups recruit only from top schools? If so, is medical school reputation or residency/fellowship reputation more important?

I worked for a physician that was a UPenn grad and AOA. I never saw a single patient ask where he went to medical school or residency.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I worked for a physician that was a UPenn grad and AOA. I never saw a single patient ask where he went to medical school or residency.

Most physicians profiles are online now a days and they all list medical school/residency/fellowship institutions, so if someone is shopping for top medical school doc they can easily find.

 

[Fano]

Most physicians profiles are online now a days and they all list medical school/residency/fellowship institutions, so if someone is shopping for top medical school doc they can easily find.

To add, many docs also have their diplomas hanging on the wall. (Some with eye-catching frames.) Funny how I only recall the ones from top schools.

 

[Davidfromcali]

An interesting and probably crude example that paints the picture is this.

If you need a 1000 points to match in a competitive speciality or program, going to a top tier school automatically allocates you a few hundred points, say 300. Someone at low tier MD might start out with no points and a IMG/DO might be negative. But the remainder of those points still need to be earned via grades, research, LOR, ect. to get to that 1000. The difference is that someone at a top school will have easier access to those remaining points, they just need to put in the work to get to that 1000. Compare that with someone from a lower tier school, they can still acquire the 1000 points, but finding the opportunities and then putting in the work to do so is a lot more challenging. But it can and is done by many people every year.

Not the most accurate example I’ve heard but it got the point across

 

[deleted1025488]

To add, many docs also have their diplomas hanging on the wall. (Some with eye-catching frames.) Funny how I only recall the ones from top schools.

Probably because you're premed. A layman probably can't even name a top medical school without defaulting to Harvard or Yale or any of the good undergraduates that are commonplace in the U.S. My parents work in academia and didn't know that 90% of the schools on my list had medical schools like UCSF, Penn, UChicago, not to mention that they were good medical programs. Schools like "Icahn at Mount Sinai" may as well be written in hieroglyphs.

 

[Fano]

Probably because you're premed. A layman probably can't even name a top medical school without defaulting to Harvard or Yale or any of the good undergraduates that are commonplace in the U.S. My parents work in academia and didn't know that 90% of the schools on my list had medical schools like UCSF, Penn, UChicago, not to mention that they were good medical programs. Schools like "Icahn at Mount Sinai" may as well be written in hieroglyphs.

I'm not a pre-med, med student or clinician. But you're correct about many people not being aware of some of the top schools. But regardless of who knows which colleges have med schools, my point was about seeing diplomas on the wall. If someone saw UPenn or UChicago, I'd bet most would assume it's a top med school, correctly or not.

 

[jadfaweradfasd]

I'm not a pre-med, med student or clinician. But you're correct about many people not being aware of some of the top schools. But regardless of who knows which colleges have med schools, my point was about seeing diplomas on the wall. If someone saw UPenn or UChicago, I'd bet most would assume it's a top med school, correctly or not.

Most people dont even know the difference between UPenn and Penn State

 

[doomer_md]

Most people dont even know the difference between UPenn and Penn State

Really? I'd think even the most low-brow people would know the difference between a snobby Ivy and Sandusky U.

 

[jadfaweradfasd]

Really? I'd think even the most low-brow people would know the difference between a snobby Ivy and Sandusky U.

Yep, people in medicine are in academic environments for so long that we know the difference between these schools, but much of the general public does not. You would be surprised at the number of people I've met who don't know the difference between Penn and Penn State, Washu (STL) and UW (Seattle), USF and UCSF, etc.

 

[doomer_md]

Yep, people in medicine are in academic environments for so long that we know the difference between these schools, but much of the general public does not. You would be surprised at the number of people I've met who don't know the difference between Penn and Penn State, Washu (STL) and UW (Seattle), USF and UCSF, etc.

To be fair most people like to pretend St. Louis doesn't exist. There's absolutely nothing holy about that city despite the name. But yeah, for the average layman to know about your non-Ivy school you pretty much need a good football or basketball team, which is kind of sad to think about.

 

[Fano]

Most people dont even know the difference between UPenn and Penn State

Sucks for you that those people likely don't know the difference between a physician and physicians assistant.

 

[DNAJB6]

Sucks for you that those people likely don't know the difference between a physician and physicians assistant.

I've lost track of the number of times I've heard a PA or NP referred to as "doctor." Obviously the patients don't know their educational backgrounds. And countless more I've encountered in my clinical employment cannot even name some of their physicians by name (e.g. cardiologist, neurologist, PCP, etc.). It is kind of sad to be honest. Those thinking that most patients care if their physician went to a top 5 school are way off for 90+% of the general patient population.

 

[DNAJB6]

The value of going to a top school includes grade inflation (for some of them at least), networking, increased research opportunities, nepotism in top residencies (which tend to be associated with top medical schools), and if you are seeking an academic position later in your career academic pedigree can make a difference. If you get into a top 5 or top 20 and the costs are reasonable (don't go by sticker price alone as many have generous financial aid programs), by all means go. If not, you're still going to do well and make a nice salary. There is no Harvard or JHU CPT code.

 

[JLC]

I am a year out after being boarded after attending a top med school, residency, and fellowship, and also have sibling that went to state school, community residency, and community fellowship. At the end of the day we all became board certified physician with a passion to help our patients.
Any US medical schools in general (exception of Puerto Rico) have a high selective bar, and our training curriculum continues to be strenuous and rigorous that physicians are still the most highly trained clinical specialist in this country.

The difference between my siblings that didn't go into top institutions and myself? From the patients perspective, nothing. From my perspective, nothing, we both try our hardest for our patients.

The reason why Harvard and other top schools pick who they pick? They get the option to pick the best. I think its hard for most people who are either striving to go into medicine or in medicine to acknowledge that there are people who are either simply more dedicated, harder working, or intelligent then they are. Going into a top school was never about paying for it. As someone mentioned, the top schools tend to also give the most financial aid. Schools aren't in the business to make money, they're in the business to get the students they want to come. Just look at NYU.

I guess my point is, don't worry so much about getting into a top school. Getting into any US MD school is hard. I find it hilarious that people who want to go into medicine through medical school spend all their time worrying about getting to practice medicine through the most challenging way by trying to get to the top programs, and NP/PAs all want to go into medicine by going through the least challenging way (by going through less competitive schooling, avoiding residency, going into diploma mills online training). Its a good thing medical schools attract the people who always want to be the best. But, there will always be someone who is better, and that's ok. The fact that you have the ambition to be the best, will make you an excellent doctor because you will always be trying your hardest for your patient.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Really? I'd think even the most low-brow people would know the difference between a snobby Ivy and Sandusky U.

You'd be surprised.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I am a year out after being boarded after attending a top med school, residency, and fellowship, and also have sibling that went to state school, community residency, and community fellowship. At the end of the day we all became board certified physician with a passion to help our patients.
Any US medical schools in general (exception of Puerto Rico) have a high selective bar, and our training curriculum continues to be strenuous and rigorous that physicians are still the most highly trained clinical specialist in this country.

The difference between my siblings that didn't go into top institutions and myself? From the patients perspective, nothing. From my perspective, nothing, we both try our hardest for our patients.

The reason why Harvard and other top schools pick who they pick? They get the option to pick the best. I think its hard for most people who are either striving to go into medicine or in medicine to acknowledge that there are people who are either simply more dedicated, harder working, or intelligent then they are. Going into a top school was never about paying for it. As someone mentioned, the top schools tend to also give the most financial aid. Schools aren't in the business to make money, they're in the business to get the students they want to come. Just look at NYU.

I guess my point is, don't worry so much about getting into a top school. Getting into any US MD school is hard. I find it hilarious that people who want to go into medicine through medical school spend all their time worrying about getting to practice medicine through the most challenging way by trying to get to the top programs, and NP/PAs all want to go into medicine by going through the least challenging way (by going through less competitive schooling, avoiding residency, going into diploma mills online training). Its a good thing medical schools attract the people who always want to be the best. But, there will always be someone who is better, and that's ok. The fact that you have the ambition to be the best, will make you an excellent doctor because you will always be trying your hardest for your patient.

You make some excellent points. Top schools will enhance your pedigree. So if academics at a med school or wanting to become a Dept Chair,( shoot me if I ever had to be Chief), is in your future, a highly rated school will help. As someone said above, there is no CPT / billing code for Harvard or JHU.

 

[ChiDO]

99% of students and residents will go into community hospitals, private practice, etc, and not academics. No one cares where you went to school. I couldn't tell you where 90%+"of my partners went to school or residency or even fellowship.

I'm sure there is some benefit to maybe get into a competitive specialty if you crush it at a top school. But, you'll crush it at a low end school then also. If you crush it at no name school, you'll get that competitive residency.

If you suck it up at top10 school, your school name is not saving you and getting that ortho or derm spot.

If I don't know where my partners went, I doubt any of my patients know unless they look up the info prior to the visit.

This question is a 1st world SDN problem.

I'm in PP ortho, I couldn't even tell you what are the "top 5" ortho programs in the country. 🤷🥴

 

[preMedFalcon]

Interesting how people are still responding to this thread (haven't checked for a couple of days). I thought it was over, but it's nice to see SOME people speaking the reality rather than continuing to be biased. There were, however, a couple of new things mentioned that I'd like to respond to.

Which schools are considered "top" schools? Is it based on US News? Or is it the PD Survey results? Or some other list that lives on SDN? Please enlighten me.

Yes, mostly US News. Keep in mind, however, that schools can manipulate the rankings in their favor. They can try to persuade many students (who they know will be rejected) to apply so they can report a low acceptance rate (which will make them seem like a top school). Or, they can simply pay money to make them seem even better than Harvard or Columbia (ok, that might be a stretch, but it's still possible and you get the point). In simple terms, these top schools are "top schools" simply because a biased ranking system says so. I guess also based on public opinion, but then again, what would everyone start thinking if Harvard was suddenly ranked #15 or lower? (I know, this will never happen, but you get the idea)

1. Is it significantly easier to get patients in private practice when coming from a top school? In your peer group, do patients specifically ask to see you over physicians from lower-tier schools (if there are any in your group)?

2. Do certain private practice groups recruit only from top schools? If so, is medical school reputation or residency/fellowship reputation more important?

When someone is having problems with their health and wants help, I doubt they'll care too much about what school their doctor went to. They'll probably care mostly or only about the only important thing: are they an experienced board-certified physician with either an MD or DO degree and is qualified to assist them? Someone who went to a top school doesn't make them a better doctor than someone who didn't, and neither does having an MD mean you're a better doctor than a DO. I do personally check what schools doctors went to, but that's just for fun (for my own curiosity). I definitely do not prefer to go to a doctor who went to a top school over one who didn't, unless they happen to be cheaper and/or accept my insurance.

And there are plenty of physicians who finish residency/fellowship who didn't go to top schools and are recruited by private practice groups, including those with DO degree.

 

[preMedFalcon]

To conclude, anyone who wants to continue arguing that medical school prestige matters a lot for residency applications, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Ideally you'd provide links to sources to back that up, but since none exist, it's understandable why you don't.

(And of course everyone is going to ignore my previous post after this reply because it talks about the truth (as does this one), but whatever)

However, I like to argue in favor of reality, which is that medical school prestige is considered but definitely not more important than many other factors. Fortunately, there are PLENTY of reliable sources to back this up, including data reported from residency programs themselves, so I'm at least able to provide some links.

Do Medical School Rankings Matter? (2024) — Shemmassian Academic Consulting

What impact do medical school rankings have on residency chances? Learn the truth.

www.shemmassianconsulting.com

https://mk0nrmp3oyqui6wqfm.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-PD-Survey.pdf

Are Medical School Rankings Important?

Do medical school rankings affect your ability as a physician? Here's a hint: going to a more prestigious school won't make you a better doctor.

www.prospectivedoctor.com

Again, if you insist on believing and arguing that school prestige is very important, then that is your choice and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. And if you do end up attending a top school (which is my goal too), then congrats in advance (just please don't start thinking that you can take it easy and your school name will save you, and if you believe it will, then there's something seriously wrong with what information you're choosing to believe and not confirming with reliable sources if it's true or not. But again, your life, your decisions) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

To conclude, anyone who wants to continue arguing that medical school prestige matters a lot for residency applications, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Ideally you'd provide links to sources to back that up, but since none exist, it's understandable why you don't.

However, I like to argue in favor of reality, which is that medical school prestige is considered but definitely not more important than many other factors. Fortunately, there are PLENTY of reliable sources to back this up, including data reported from residency programs themselves, so I'm at least able to provide some links.

Do Medical School Rankings Matter? (2024) — Shemmassian Academic Consulting

What impact do medical school rankings have on residency chances? Learn the truth.

www.shemmassianconsulting.com

https://mk0nrmp3oyqui6wqfm.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-PD-Survey.pdf

Are Medical School Rankings Important?

Do medical school rankings affect your ability as a physician? Here's a hint: going to a more prestigious school won't make you a better doctor.

www.prospectivedoctor.com

Again, if you insist on believing and arguing that school prestige is very important, then that is your choice and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. And if you do end up attending a top school (which is my goal too), then congrats in advance (just please don't start thinking that you can take it easy and your school name will save you, and if you believe it will, then there's something seriously wrong with what information you're choosing to believe and not confirming with reliable sources if it's true or not. But again, your life, your decisions) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

aren't both articles by admissions consultants whose goal is to get you into a medical school not necessarily T20

 

[YCAGA]

Just skimmed this thread so it might have already been said, but “prestigious” institutions on your resume at any point make the subsequent steps in your career/education easier. Or another way way to say it: once you’re in the prestigious club, it’s much easier to stay there than it was to get in. So if you didn’t get into a prestigious undergrad, your next chance to break into the prestigious club is medical school. A top medical school more easily leads to a top residency (either competitive speciality or prestigious program or both) > top fellowship > top super-fellowship > top job prospects.

There are plenty of people who jump on the prestigious institution train at various steps, but it’s not an accident for example that many of the August and September medical school interviewees at top 20 med schools went to top 20 undergrads.

Now, what if you don’t care about going to “top programs”? That’s fine, but pretty much everyone cares about doing the speciality of their choice and having flexible job prospects. You get the most speciality and job flexibility by going to a top medical school/residency/fellowship. If at some point you are sick of the prestige rat race, you can always “go down” a tier and the wow factor of your previous institutions will make that very easy.

This was more long winded than I meant for it to be but, yes, top medical schools give you tremendous advantages and it would be silly regardless of your goals to choose a significantly less prestigious school over a top one.

 

[Fano]

So unless you're looking to go into research, want a slightly easier way into a competitive residency, or just want to brag and feel special about going to a top school, why go to one?

Let's not underestimate the value of feeling special.

 

[preMedFalcon]

This was more long winded than I meant for it to be but, yes, top medical schools give you tremendous advantages and it would be silly regardless of your goals to choose a significantly less prestigious school over a top one.

You do realize that your advice goes directly against what all the prestigious medial schools strongly advise, which is to prioritize going to a school because it's the right fit for what you want, not because it is prestigious. Many admissions directors at top medical schools have admitted that they hate US News rankings, even though they are always ranked top 20. If you actually read the articles I've posted (including the pdf one in the middle, which is from the NRMP directly), you will clearly see that medical school prestige matters very little for residency programs. I can't believe people are actually advising to prioritize prestige over good fit. All the prestigious medial schools will support that this is terrible advice.

Oh, and by the way, there are actually many students who are accepted into top medical schools, but still turn them down because they prefer the less prestigious schools as it fits best with what they want. They still end up being very successful and going to competitive residencies (if that's what they want).

Only if you plan to go into a career that involves academics, research, or entrepreneurship will it then be very advantageous to go to a top medical school (even though many people graduate from lower tier schools but still end up being every successful in such careers). Otherwise, no one really cares. Don't go to a top school even if you'll hate it there just because it's "prestigious".

Let's not underestimate the value of feeling special.

If you need to be able to say that you attended [insert name of T20 school] to feel special, then you have a sad life. Besides, the need to feel special is only for losers, in my opinion.

 

[jadfaweradfasd]

You do realize that your advice goes directly against what all the prestigious medial schools strongly advise, which is to prioritize going to a school because it's the right fit for what you want, not because it is prestigious. Many admissions directors at top medical schools have admitted that they hate US News rankings, even though they are always ranked top 20. If you actually read the articles I've posted (including the pdf one in the middle, which is from the NRMP directly), you will clearly see that medical school prestige matters very little for residency programs. I can't believe people are actually advising to prioritize prestige over good fit. All the prestigious medial schools will support that this is terrible advice.

Only if you plan to go into a career that involves academics, research, or entrepreneurship will it then be very advantageous to go to a top medical school. Otherwise, no one really cares. Don't go to a top school even if you'll hate it there just because it's "prestigious".


If you need to be able to say that you attended [insert name of T20 school] to feel special, then you have a sad life. Besides, the need to feel special is only for losers, in my opinion.

Every top school is going to say to choose the best fit school because it's the "correct" thing to say. No school is going to say "Yeah come to us because we're top 5 in US news", even though that does matter more than you like to think.

 

[preMedFalcon]

Every top school is going to say to choose the best fit school because it's the "correct" thing to say. No school is going to say "Yeah come to us because we're top 5 in US news", even though that does matter more than you like to think.

I don't even know what to say anymore lol. It's actually pretty funny how you guys are so determined to think and argue that going to a top school is a requirement to get into a top program, despite the top programs themselves arguing against that. Even posting links to articles directly from the programs themselves supporting the fact that you are all wrong doesn't help to even try to convince you. Yeah sure, go to a top school even if it'll feel like hell being there because it's "prestigious", and according to you all, that's what's most important to the residency programs, even if you are not able to perform well and be happy because the school is not a right fit. That is wonderful advice. Thank you

And not to mention that NO ONE has posted any links to reliable sources to support that school prestige is that important, because there are none. And they try to ignore referencing the sources I've provided, because they try to avoid accepting the truth at any cost. Just keep trying to enforce what they think without providing any acceptable proof of it. And your best explanation is that the top schools are lying and just saying the "correct" thing

 

[deleted1108964]

Just google [good hospital} current residents in _____ field. You'll see that even in relatively noncompetitive fields, the best hospitals almost exclusively take from top schools. Don't even get me started on the actual competitive specialties. I think I had to go through like 15 hospitals to find a PGY-1 neuro class that wasn't filled with Harvard/Stanford grads.

No need to fiddle with these secondary sources. Literally, just look at the residents they take in. Whatever they say (and that you're saying) is clearly not supported by the actual, literal people they take in.

 

[preMedFalcon]

Just google [good hospital} current residents in _____ field. You'll see that even in relatively noncompetitive fields, the best hospitals almost exclusively take from top schools. Don't even get me started on the actual competitive specialties. I think I had to go through like 15 hospitals to find a PGY-1 neuro class that wasn't filled with Harvard/Stanford grads.

No need to fiddle with these secondary sources. Literally, just look at the residents they take in. Whatever they say (and that you're saying) is clearly not supported by the actual, literal people they take in.

If you're so confident, please provide a link directly to where you're getting this information from. Thank you. But just an FYI, this is not valid proof. This is entirely coincidental. I'm looking for an actual news article or a statement from the residency programs that admit that going to a top school is super important (as everyone claims). But nevertheless, please provide the link (like I did). I'll be waiting. Thank you.

 

[deleted1108964]

Please provide a link directly to where you're getting this information from. Thank you. But just an FYI, this is not valid proof. This is entirely coincidental. I'm looking for an actual news article or a statement from the residency programs that admit that going to a top school is super important (as everyone claims). But nevertheless, please provide the link (like I did). I'll be waiting. Thank you.

You want me to link 15 hospitals for you? I think it seems like you are both very capable and very eager to find these 'links,' so once again I'd advise you to type in the 6 words I gave you with any top hospital/university of your choice (I even gave you the template).

I have no interest in this debacle and was simply providing an interesting alignment contrary to your 'claims' and 'evidence' (interestingly, from people trying to sell MD admission consulting programs). Sure, maybe it's all coincidental; top students go to top schools, and top students have better profiles leading to better residency positions. Sure, maybe that accounts for the literal zero non-T20 alma mater PGY's at these top institutions' competitive programs.

I have no burden of proof. Seek this information if you want, I could not care less. My post was mainly for others in this thread, anyway. I personally have had enough conversations with PDs at my home institution and sister institutions to know the reality of the situation, most of which is simply just favoritism and internal bias (even towards undergrad). I doubt you have any interest in my anecdotal claims so I'll just leave you with the above.

 

[preMedFalcon]

You want me to link 15 hospitals for you? I think it seems like you are both very capable and very eager to find these 'links,' so once again I'd advise you to type in the 6 words I gave you with any top hospital/university of your choice (I even gave you the template).

I have no interest in this debacle and was simply providing an interesting alignment contrary to your 'claims' and 'evidence' (interestingly, from people trying to sell MD admission consulting programs). Sure, maybe it's all coincidental; top students go to top schools, and top students have better profiles leading to better residency positions. Sure, maybe that accounts for the literal zero non-T20 alma mater PGY's at these top institutions' competitive programs.

I have no burden of proof. Seek this information if you want, I could not care less. My post was mainly for others in this thread, anyway. I personally have had enough conversations with PDs at my home institution and sister institutions to know the reality of the situation, most of which is simply just favoritism and internal bias (even towards undergrad). I doubt you have any interest in my anecdotal claims so I'll just leave you with the above.

Sorry, there is no need for links anymore. I've already looked at a few of the nation's top ranked hospitals and residency programs, and although a lot of their current residents are from top schools, there are almost just as many from lower tier schools there too, and surprisingly quite a few from foreign schools as well. Your claim that there are "literal zero non-T20 alma mater PGY's at these top institutions' competitive programs" is clearly completely wrong.

So please try again.

 

[deleted1108964]

Sorry, there is no need anymore. I've already looked at a few of the nation's top ranked hospitals and residency programs, and although a lot of their current residents are from top schools, there are almost just as many from lower tier schools there too, and surprisingly quite a few from foreign schools as well. Your claim that there are "literal zero non-T20 alma mater PGY's at these top institutions' competitive programs" is clearly completely wrong.

So please try again.

I don't need to "try again" and the zero figure was for neuro. I've had residency directors from my school (HYPS) outwardly say they scrap applications from students under a certain threshold of medical schools barring a phone call or some sort of email from a reference. An opinionated piece from premed jumping from "i want to apply to top schools" to "i don't fit into top schools" to "they don't matter" means nothing to me. I'd advise a more well-rounded approach to the process. Also for the record foreign schools are under a different umbrella. Most of those are literally the very best in their country so...

Also, you appear to be skewering this towards the notion that graduation from prestigious MD is necessary for top residency. It's not? No one's saying that. It's just a more uphill grind.

Also, mods should lock this thread. Poor guy is clearly on his 5th round of copium and refuses to engage in any meaningful form of discourse apart from the opinion of Shemmassian Consulting.

 

[preMedFalcon]

Also for the record foreign schools are under a different umbrella. Most of those are literally the very best in their country so...

Going to a foreign medical school automatically puts you at a disadvantage when competing with graduates from American medical schools.

Also, you appear to be skewering this towards the notion that graduation from prestigious MD is necessary for top residency. It's not? No one's saying that. It's just a more uphill grind.

Everyone sure makes it sound like it is. And keep in mind, I never claimed that school prestige doesn't matter at all. It does, just not that much. Student performance, along with other factors, are significantly more important.

apart from the opinion of Shemmassian Consulting.

Clearly trying to avoid accepting the truth at any cost, even though I also provided 2 other links, one of which is NOT consulting and one directly from the NRMP. BTW, since you refuse to read the articles (because they prove the reality and you don't want to accept that), the Shemmassian Consulting in general successfully gets students admitted into top medical schools, and everything they say in the article is directly from data reported by residency programs.

 

[preMedFalcon]

I'm going to try to make one more attempt to close this argument, because my first attempt clearly didn't work.

Once again, if you want to believe that going to a prestigious medical school is going to be extremely helpful for residency matching, then that is perfectly okay. I actually did not expect my original post to go this far. When everyone started saying that school prestige is very helpful, I just intended to correct them by saying that although it is considered, it's not THAT important, but everyone insisted on arguing that it is, so I didn't know. I don't know why I tried to argue against that instead of just letting you think what you want, but like I said, I didn't know it was going to get this far.

If you want to continue arguing that school prestige is that important, even though all the evidence, the top schools and the residency programs all strongly advise that this is wrong, then no one is going to stop you. You can clearly look up correct residents at some of the top residency programs in the nation and you'll see that although there are a lot of graduates from top schools, there are also almost just as many from lower tier schools as well. So clearly going to a top school is not going to help you that much (like everyone wants to think it will), and not going to a top school is not going to hold you back at all (yes you will have to work harder, but you'll have to work hard regardless of your school's name). If everyone wishes to refuse to believe that, no one is stopping you.

And if you think about it logically, why would residency programs prefer graduates from top school? Just because you went to a top school doesn't automatically mean you'll be the best at their program and will be the best doctor ever. It makes much more sense to prioritize the performance of the individual student rather than the prestige of their school's name. But again, I really don't want to try to convince you to change sides at this point. That was NOT my original intention when I originally started this thread, because I actually thought that everyone would be more realistic here. Clearly that was a big mistake and I learned my lesson.

At the end of the day, reality is reality, and the system works the way it does, regardless of if you accept to believe it or not. If you would rather be forced to accept reality the hard way, that is perfectly okay (or maybe I will, who knows lol, but based on the reality I doubt it).

Going to a top school is definitely something to be proud of and will certainly make your medical career easier, as long as you still work for it (because if you don't, your school's name is not going to save you). I still have several years to go before I plan to apply and have a plan in place to build a very strong application so I can hopefully go to a top medical school myself. If you end up going to a T20 school and then to a top residency program, congratulations in advance. Best of luck to you and your future goals.