I did not personally have a banking or finance-related job. I worked in IT (datacenter and network management), and I did it without a college degree.
Interesting! When did you decide to go back to school and begin your undergrad?
I did not personally have a banking or finance-related job. I worked in IT (datacenter and network management), and I did it without a college degree.
Interesting! When did you decide to go back to school and begin your undergrad?
You have a seriously major problem with assumptions. I did not "go back and begin my undergrad." I did 2.5 years of undergrad before dropping out and getting the IT job.
I'm not interested in detailing my life history for you, so that line of questioning is at an end.
I'm not sure why you're upset.
How thoughtful of you; how wise, intuitive, precocious, and prudent. Your foresight transcends my mortal brain!I chuckle as I begin writing this post. I laugh not because medicine is a bad field in and of itself, but rather because of how medicine is changing, and also because of how medicine isn't changing. If you feel the need to comment on this post to reassure yourself that the decision to pursue medicine is the "right" endeavor for you, feel free. I understand: I did the same thing for many years. In fact, I'm not even writing this to dissuade aspiring doctors. I'm writing this just to get my voice out there.
Ever since I was a young child, I wanted to become a doctor. The field itself was very intriguing to me, and the prestige and money that "seemed" to accompany medicine acted as a snare as well. All throughout high school, medicine seemed like the only option for me. I did well in school and on standardized tests, and many of my superiors saw me as a practical and mature thinker.
Fast forward to this past August. I was frequenting SDN, and I was preparing for my first year of college. It was an exciting time, filled with the anticipation for opportunity. Given the amount of work that lied ahead for my pre-med self, I wanted to make sure that I knew everything that I needed to know by listening to members of this site, as well as doctors, residents, and members of medical academia on other sites.
This "research" of mine had an unexpected effect.
Countless members spoke of their rejections. Countless threads mentioned doctors who regretted pursuing a degree in medicine. Countless residents complained of their horrid hours and even worse social lives. On other websites, broader topics such as divorce rates and the effects of legislation (specifically Obamacare) were discussed. And of course, everything made medicine appear less and less appealing.
I wasn't going to quit though. Medicine was surely still the best option for me. I never dreamed of a future where the title of "doctor" didn't precede my last name.
A buddy of mine who was going into actuarial science started talking to me about his college plans. Not once did he try to persuade me against medicine, but what he said was incredibly influential.
He was going to a good school that wasn't very expensive. As an actuary, he would walk into a field that required nothing more than a bachelor's degree. I accompanied him when he met with his advisor before he year started (which I was surprised the advisor let me do), and that is when everything changed. The advisor, an 30-something-year-old, had been in the field of actuarial science for over ten years. He joined academia to get his summers off and longer breaks to spend with his children. But what did he say?
By the time many of that college's graduates turned 28, they were making nearly six figures.
After several years with a company, many of the graduates had a work-from-home day each week. Maybe even two.
The hours? 8-4:30 initially. Eventually the time spend at work would decrease to maybe 9-4:30 as the worker proved their capabilities.
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the expected job growth for actuaries was 26%.
I was shocked. "How could a four-year degree offer such a fantastic salary, lifestyle, and job growth?" That is a question I asked myself, and continued to ask myself long after the meeting ended.
No, this is not my plug for actuarial science. This is my plug against medicine. (Although actuarial science is indeed a fantastic field.)
Lifestyle
I don't feel like explaining this. You all know what I'm talking about, you're knowledgable on this subject. The best explanation I can offer is through this link. If you pay attention to anything in this thread, please pay attention to this link.
Debt, Salary, and Legislation
All of you know that debt sucks, and doctors have a lot of it. I'm not going to re-explain what all of you (should) already know. Salary and legislation on the other: How many of you realize that reimbursement for doctors is on the decline? How many of you know that in states like Minnesota, access to specialized doctors is being limited to a certain number of visits per year? Simple economics says that if you have less clients, you will receive less money. Hospitals won't be able to afford the large salaries of specialized physicians when the services of the physicians aren't being paid for as they were before.
Couple that with the increasing cost of schooling and you get a profession where the graduates end up in a very regrettable field.
The Result of Your Life
At age 22, my friend will end his schooling with a grand total of <$25k in debt. He will start anywhere between $50k and $65k, and in just a few years be making nearly $100k. If I stayed on the medical path? I would potentially be in medical school, indirectly making myself an indentured servant to the big banks of America. If I wasn't so lucky? I would become one of the 57% who didn't make it into medical school, effectively wasting my undergrad years, slaving away at shadowing, volunteering, incredibly difficult courses, and whatever else that could make me a good applicant.
At age 28, my friend was modest and fiscally responsible, he could be debt free. If not, he would have very little left to pay. Oh, and the company he's working at? Yeah, he's taken actuarial exams that have increased his pay by nearly double. His work has been stressful at times -- just like any profession -- but he's a lot less stressed than me, who is now worked 60-80 hours per week in a residency.
At age 34, I'm finally a licensed independent doctor. I'm freeeee- oh wait. No I'm not. I'm not even a little. I have roughly $200,000 in debt, and I'm still working arduous hours. My (dingus) friend? He's worked his way up in the company, or maybe he's found a better position and another company. He's making half as much as me. Ha! But wait -- he's been debt free for years, and he's able to focus on other things, like his 401k, retirement, and his house.
You see, at age 25, my buddy would be going out to the bars and getting nice dinners with dates and friends and coworkers. He would be living up his 20's in a STEM profession (mathematics, specifically) that is netting him an above-average salary that's increasing every year.
Reset. I'm 18 years old and just starting college.
Do I want to wait until I'm in my 30's to begin my life? Do I want to wait fifteen years to join a field that may or may not be what I expected? Do I want to put myself into such unforgivable debt that it won't be until my 40's that I will be free, yet in a field that may be declining in reimbursement and still hard hours?
No. I do not. I do no want that at all.
Am I saying that you should get a job as an actuary? Hell no. If that's not what you want, then don't do it. It's just an example. What I am saying? Take it from the guy in that link: Medicine probably isn't going to end up being the ideal profession you expect it to be. There are a lot of better alternatives.
I chuckle as I begin writing this post. I laugh not because medicine is a bad field in and of itself, but rather because of how medicine is changing, and also because of how medicine isn't changing. If you feel the need to comment on this post to reassure yourself that the decision to pursue medicine is the "right" endeavor for you, feel free. I understand: I did the same thing for many years. In fact, I'm not even writing this to dissuade aspiring doctors. I'm writing this just to get my voice out there.
Ever since I was a young child, I wanted to become a doctor. The field itself was very intriguing to me, and the prestige and money that "seemed" to accompany medicine acted as a snare as well. All throughout high school, medicine seemed like the only option for me. I did well in school and on standardized tests, and many of my superiors saw me as a practical and mature thinker.
Fast forward to this past August. I was frequenting SDN, and I was preparing for my first year of college. It was an exciting time, filled with the anticipation for opportunity. Given the amount of work that lied ahead for my pre-med self, I wanted to make sure that I knew everything that I needed to know by listening to members of this site, as well as doctors, residents, and members of medical academia on other sites.
This "research" of mine had an unexpected effect.
Countless members spoke of their rejections. Countless threads mentioned doctors who regretted pursuing a degree in medicine. Countless residents complained of their horrid hours and even worse social lives. On other websites, broader topics such as divorce rates and the effects of legislation (specifically Obamacare) were discussed. And of course, everything made medicine appear less and less appealing.
I wasn't going to quit though. Medicine was surely still the best option for me. I never dreamed of a future where the title of "doctor" didn't precede my last name.
A buddy of mine who was going into actuarial science started talking to me about his college plans. Not once did he try to persuade me against medicine, but what he said was incredibly influential.
He was going to a good school that wasn't very expensive. As an actuary, he would walk into a field that required nothing more than a bachelor's degree. I accompanied him when he met with his advisor before he year started (which I was surprised the advisor let me do), and that is when everything changed. The advisor, an 30-something-year-old, had been in the field of actuarial science for over ten years. He joined academia to get his summers off and longer breaks to spend with his children. But what did he say?
By the time many of that college's graduates turned 28, they were making nearly six figures.
After several years with a company, many of the graduates had a work-from-home day each week. Maybe even two.
The hours? 8-4:30 initially. Eventually the time spend at work would decrease to maybe 9-4:30 as the worker proved their capabilities.
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the expected job growth for actuaries was 26%.
I was shocked. "How could a four-year degree offer such a fantastic salary, lifestyle, and job growth?" That is a question I asked myself, and continued to ask myself long after the meeting ended.
No, this is not my plug for actuarial science. This is my plug against medicine. (Although actuarial science is indeed a fantastic field.)
Lifestyle
I don't feel like explaining this. You all know what I'm talking about, you're knowledgable on this subject. The best explanation I can offer is through this link. If you pay attention to anything in this thread, please pay attention to this link.
Debt, Salary, and Legislation
All of you know that debt sucks, and doctors have a lot of it. I'm not going to re-explain what all of you (should) already know. Salary and legislation on the other: How many of you realize that reimbursement for doctors is on the decline? How many of you know that in states like Minnesota, access to specialized doctors is being limited to a certain number of visits per year? Simple economics says that if you have less clients, you will receive less money. Hospitals won't be able to afford the large salaries of specialized physicians when the services of the physicians aren't being paid for as they were before.
Couple that with the increasing cost of schooling and you get a profession where the graduates end up in a very regrettable field.
The Result of Your Life
At age 22, my friend will end his schooling with a grand total of <$25k in debt. He will start anywhere between $50k and $65k, and in just a few years be making nearly $100k. If I stayed on the medical path? I would potentially be in medical school, indirectly making myself an indentured servant to the big banks of America. If I wasn't so lucky? I would become one of the 57% who didn't make it into medical school, effectively wasting my undergrad years, slaving away at shadowing, volunteering, incredibly difficult courses, and whatever else that could make me a good applicant.
At age 28, my friend was modest and fiscally responsible, he could be debt free. If not, he would have very little left to pay. Oh, and the company he's working at? Yeah, he's taken actuarial exams that have increased his pay by nearly double. His work has been stressful at times -- just like any profession -- but he's a lot less stressed than me, who is now worked 60-80 hours per week in a residency.
At age 34, I'm finally a licensed independent doctor. I'm freeeee- oh wait. No I'm not. I'm not even a little. I have roughly $200,000 in debt, and I'm still working arduous hours. My (dingus) friend? He's worked his way up in the company, or maybe he's found a better position and another company. He's making half as much as me. Ha! But wait -- he's been debt free for years, and he's able to focus on other things, like his 401k, retirement, and his house.
You see, at age 25, my buddy would be going out to the bars and getting nice dinners with dates and friends and coworkers. He would be living up his 20's in a STEM profession (mathematics, specifically) that is netting him an above-average salary that's increasing every year.
Reset. I'm 18 years old and just starting college.
Do I want to wait until I'm in my 30's to begin my life? Do I want to wait fifteen years to join a field that may or may not be what I expected? Do I want to put myself into such unforgivable debt that it won't be until my 40's that I will be free, yet in a field that may be declining in reimbursement and still hard hours?
No. I do not. I do no want that at all.
Am I saying that you should get a job as an actuary? Hell no. If that's not what you want, then don't do it. It's just an example. What I am saying? Take it from the guy in that link: Medicine probably isn't going to end up being the ideal profession you expect it to be. There are a lot of better alternatives.
Good for you! One of the worst things I see posted here on SDN is people who get into medical school or even graduate from medical school only to find out that they hate it, it wasn't what they expected, wish they had done something else, etc. You should be happy to have found out medicine isn't for you, especially as early as you have.
I think OP is the gunneriest of gunners. Trying to dissuade the competition with hit pieces on how much medicine sucksI chuckle as I begin writing this post. I laugh not because medicine is a bad field in and of itself, but rather because of how medicine is changing, and also because of how medicine isn't changing. If you feel the need to comment on this post to reassure yourself that the decision to pursue medicine is the "right" endeavor for you, feel free. I understand: I did the same thing for many years. In fact, I'm not even writing this to dissuade aspiring doctors. I'm writing this just to get my voice out there.
Ever since I was a young child, I wanted to become a doctor. The field itself was very intriguing to me, and the prestige and money that "seemed" to accompany medicine acted as a snare as well. All throughout high school, medicine seemed like the only option for me. I did well in school and on standardized tests, and many of my superiors saw me as a practical and mature thinker.
Fast forward to this past August. I was frequenting SDN, and I was preparing for my first year of college. It was an exciting time, filled with the anticipation for opportunity. Given the amount of work that lied ahead for my pre-med self, I wanted to make sure that I knew everything that I needed to know by listening to members of this site, as well as doctors, residents, and members of medical academia on other sites.
This "research" of mine had an unexpected effect.
Countless members spoke of their rejections. Countless threads mentioned doctors who regretted pursuing a degree in medicine. Countless residents complained of their horrid hours and even worse social lives. On other websites, broader topics such as divorce rates and the effects of legislation (specifically Obamacare) were discussed. And of course, everything made medicine appear less and less appealing.
I wasn't going to quit though. Medicine was surely still the best option for me. I never dreamed of a future where the title of "doctor" didn't precede my last name.
A buddy of mine who was going into actuarial science started talking to me about his college plans. Not once did he try to persuade me against medicine, but what he said was incredibly influential.
He was going to a good school that wasn't very expensive. As an actuary, he would walk into a field that required nothing more than a bachelor's degree. I accompanied him when he met with his advisor before he year started (which I was surprised the advisor let me do), and that is when everything changed. The advisor, an 30-something-year-old, had been in the field of actuarial science for over ten years. He joined academia to get his summers off and longer breaks to spend with his children. But what did he say?
By the time many of that college's graduates turned 28, they were making nearly six figures.
After several years with a company, many of the graduates had a work-from-home day each week. Maybe even two.
The hours? 8-4:30 initially. Eventually the time spend at work would decrease to maybe 9-4:30 as the worker proved their capabilities.
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the expected job growth for actuaries was 26%.
I was shocked. "How could a four-year degree offer such a fantastic salary, lifestyle, and job growth?" That is a question I asked myself, and continued to ask myself long after the meeting ended.
No, this is not my plug for actuarial science. This is my plug against medicine. (Although actuarial science is indeed a fantastic field.)
Lifestyle
I don't feel like explaining this. You all know what I'm talking about, you're knowledgable on this subject. The best explanation I can offer is through this link. If you pay attention to anything in this thread, please pay attention to this link.
Debt, Salary, and Legislation
All of you know that debt sucks, and doctors have a lot of it. I'm not going to re-explain what all of you (should) already know. Salary and legislation on the other: How many of you realize that reimbursement for doctors is on the decline? How many of you know that in states like Minnesota, access to specialized doctors is being limited to a certain number of visits per year? Simple economics says that if you have less clients, you will receive less money. Hospitals won't be able to afford the large salaries of specialized physicians when the services of the physicians aren't being paid for as they were before.
Couple that with the increasing cost of schooling and you get a profession where the graduates end up in a very regrettable field.
The Result of Your Life
At age 22, my friend will end his schooling with a grand total of <$25k in debt. He will start anywhere between $50k and $65k, and in just a few years be making nearly $100k. If I stayed on the medical path? I would potentially be in medical school, indirectly making myself an indentured servant to the big banks of America. If I wasn't so lucky? I would become one of the 57% who didn't make it into medical school, effectively wasting my undergrad years, slaving away at shadowing, volunteering, incredibly difficult courses, and whatever else that could make me a good applicant.
At age 28, my friend was modest and fiscally responsible, he could be debt free. If not, he would have very little left to pay. Oh, and the company he's working at? Yeah, he's taken actuarial exams that have increased his pay by nearly double. His work has been stressful at times -- just like any profession -- but he's a lot less stressed than me, who is now worked 60-80 hours per week in a residency.
At age 34, I'm finally a licensed independent doctor. I'm freeeee- oh wait. No I'm not. I'm not even a little. I have roughly $200,000 in debt, and I'm still working arduous hours. My (dingus) friend? He's worked his way up in the company, or maybe he's found a better position and another company. He's making half as much as me. Ha! But wait -- he's been debt free for years, and he's able to focus on other things, like his 401k, retirement, and his house.
You see, at age 25, my buddy would be going out to the bars and getting nice dinners with dates and friends and coworkers. He would be living up his 20's in a STEM profession (mathematics, specifically) that is netting him an above-average salary that's increasing every year.
Reset. I'm 18 years old and just starting college.
Do I want to wait until I'm in my 30's to begin my life? Do I want to wait fifteen years to join a field that may or may not be what I expected? Do I want to put myself into such unforgivable debt that it won't be until my 40's that I will be free, yet in a field that may be declining in reimbursement and still hard hours?
No. I do not. I do no want that at all.
Am I saying that you should get a job as an actuary? Hell no. If that's not what you want, then don't do it. It's just an example. What I am saying? Take it from the guy in that link: Medicine probably isn't going to end up being the ideal profession you expect it to be. There are a lot of better alternatives.
There you go again! 😉
Anyway, you still missed the point. I never said I had any incredible perspective on any industry I said that I know many people with those types of degrees and see the types of work they do and the kind of money they make.
I am using my personal experience with the sort of degree you want to encourage you to get a more realistic view of it by talking to and observing people who have those degrees.
There's no magic undergrad degree that equals 40 hour work weeks and six figures.
To become an actuary and make those big bucks you need to pass many many exams (i'm not sure but I think its 5 or so). These exams are not at all easy. Its not like saying, hey I'll become an actuary and just write an exam. A good portion of people fail the first one (and passing grade is 70 or 80% if I'm not mistaken). These exams are brutal and almost as draining as the MCAT. And they also end up costing more money and take more time to prepare as you get further. I think you need to pass around half the exams before you get hired on as an actuary anywhere. Again I'm not an expert, but I'm just citing these facts from things my roommate, who wants to go into this, told me a year ago. So what's going to happen if you don't have the ability to pass these exams? They're very high level mathematics, which not everyone is capable of comprehending, let alone being good at. It's just like getting into medicine, not everyone is capable of it. To become a doctor you need to work hard and invest a lot of time. To become an actuary, while you may not be spending as much of your life married to the job (if and when you get a job), you'll still need to work your ass off. Yes the life you'll have could be great, but are you going to be interested in crunching numbers 40 hrs a week at a desk? Do you like to crunch numbers to begin with?
assuming of course you pass enough of them to be employed. Im just saying, you could end up trying to pass exams for 6 years after your undergrad and not get employed where you want. You also just started your undergrad, so wait until you take more advanced math and statistics before tooting your horn about how great actuary is. There is a reason the field is lucrative, it's very hard to get into it.
+1I think OP is the gunneriest of gunners. Trying to dissuade the competition with hit pieces on how much medicine sucks
Good for you op, you don't have the drive or the dedication for medicine, and you weren't looking to go into it for the right reasons. Best you get away now, and leave the doctoring to those of us who actually enjoy medicine.
I'm from a family of engineers. Nowadays, there are only 2-3 fields of Engineering that can give you $80-90k salary out of undergrad.literally engineering
im done here
You did not mean to come of condescending, yet you started the post with "I chuckle as I begin to write this," as if you have some kind of hidden knowledge others don't.I apologize if I came off condescending and all-knowing, because I really didn't mean to. I just wanted to offer a unique perspective on the information I've gathered in the past four or so years, and especially the information I've gathered as of late.
I guess that's actually the point of my thread. Life isn't all about money, and a lot of people who go into medicine do so simply for the money and prestige, and just a little bit because they like the field.
No sir, my buddy says you should have two done before seriously considering applying for a job. Finishing the first exam merely shows you can do statistics and like math.
I'm done with this thread now. It turned out exactly how I expected it to, and that's okay.
And what did you accomplish?I'm done with this thread now. It turned out exactly how I expected it to, and that's okay
Yeah when you're a pr**k its pretty obvious what kinds of responses you will elicit.Alright. I guess it now comes down to your anecdotes and those of my advisor and friend's advisor.
I'm done with this thread now. It turned out exactly how I expected it to, and that's okay. In all, I'm satisfied with giving my piece, and I wish you all the best of luck with your careers.
I chuckle as I begin writing this post. I laugh not because medicine is a bad field in and of itself, but rather because of how medicine is changing, and also because of how medicine isn't changing. If you feel the need to comment on this post to reassure yourself that the decision to pursue medicine is the "right" endeavor for you, feel free. I understand: I did the same thing for many years. In fact, I'm not even writing this to dissuade aspiring doctors. I'm writing this just to get my voice out there.
Ever since I was a young child, I wanted to become a doctor. The field itself was very intriguing to me, and the prestige and money that "seemed" to accompany medicine acted as a snare as well. All throughout high school, medicine seemed like the only option for me. I did well in school and on standardized tests, and many of my superiors saw me as a practical and mature thinker.
Fast forward to this past August. I was frequenting SDN, and I was preparing for my first year of college. It was an exciting time, filled with the anticipation for opportunity. Given the amount of work that lied ahead for my pre-med self, I wanted to make sure that I knew everything that I needed to know by listening to members of this site, as well as doctors, residents, and members of medical academia on other sites.
This "research" of mine had an unexpected effect.
Countless members spoke of their rejections. Countless threads mentioned doctors who regretted pursuing a degree in medicine. Countless residents complained of their horrid hours and even worse social lives. On other websites, broader topics such as divorce rates and the effects of legislation (specifically Obamacare) were discussed. And of course, everything made medicine appear less and less appealing.
I wasn't going to quit though. Medicine was surely still the best option for me. I never dreamed of a future where the title of "doctor" didn't precede my last name.
A buddy of mine who was going into actuarial science started talking to me about his college plans. Not once did he try to persuade me against medicine, but what he said was incredibly influential.
He was going to a good school that wasn't very expensive. As an actuary, he would walk into a field that required nothing more than a bachelor's degree. I accompanied him when he met with his advisor before he year started (which I was surprised the advisor let me do), and that is when everything changed. The advisor, an 30-something-year-old, had been in the field of actuarial science for over ten years. He joined academia to get his summers off and longer breaks to spend with his children. But what did he say?
By the time many of that college's graduates turned 28, they were making nearly six figures.
After several years with a company, many of the graduates had a work-from-home day each week. Maybe even two.
The hours? 8-4:30 initially. Eventually the time spend at work would decrease to maybe 9-4:30 as the worker proved their capabilities.
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the expected job growth for actuaries was 26%.
I was shocked. "How could a four-year degree offer such a fantastic salary, lifestyle, and job growth?" That is a question I asked myself, and continued to ask myself long after the meeting ended.
No, this is not my plug for actuarial science. This is my plug against medicine. (Although actuarial science is indeed a fantastic field.)
Lifestyle
I don't feel like explaining this. You all know what I'm talking about, you're knowledgable on this subject. The best explanation I can offer is through this link. If you pay attention to anything in this thread, please pay attention to this link.
Debt, Salary, and Legislation
All of you know that debt sucks, and doctors have a lot of it. I'm not going to re-explain what all of you (should) already know. Salary and legislation on the other: How many of you realize that reimbursement for doctors is on the decline? How many of you know that in states like Minnesota, access to specialized doctors is being limited to a certain number of visits per year? Simple economics says that if you have less clients, you will receive less money. Hospitals won't be able to afford the large salaries of specialized physicians when the services of the physicians aren't being paid for as they were before.
Couple that with the increasing cost of schooling and you get a profession where the graduates end up in a very regrettable field.
The Result of Your Life
At age 22, my friend will end his schooling with a grand total of <$25k in debt. He will start anywhere between $50k and $65k, and in just a few years be making nearly $100k. If I stayed on the medical path? I would potentially be in medical school, indirectly making myself an indentured servant to the big banks of America. If I wasn't so lucky? I would become one of the 57% who didn't make it into medical school, effectively wasting my undergrad years, slaving away at shadowing, volunteering, incredibly difficult courses, and whatever else that could make me a good applicant.
At age 28, my friend was modest and fiscally responsible, he could be debt free. If not, he would have very little left to pay. Oh, and the company he's working at? Yeah, he's taken actuarial exams that have increased his pay by nearly double. His work has been stressful at times -- just like any profession -- but he's a lot less stressed than me, who is now worked 60-80 hours per week in a residency.
At age 34, I'm finally a licensed independent doctor. I'm freeeee- oh wait. No I'm not. I'm not even a little. I have roughly $200,000 in debt, and I'm still working arduous hours. My (dingus) friend? He's worked his way up in the company, or maybe he's found a better position and another company. He's making half as much as me. Ha! But wait -- he's been debt free for years, and he's able to focus on other things, like his 401k, retirement, and his house.
You see, at age 25, my buddy would be going out to the bars and getting nice dinners with dates and friends and coworkers. He would be living up his 20's in a STEM profession (mathematics, specifically) that is netting him an above-average salary that's increasing every year.
Reset. I'm 18 years old and just starting college.
Do I want to wait until I'm in my 30's to begin my life? Do I want to wait fifteen years to join a field that may or may not be what I expected? Do I want to put myself into such unforgivable debt that it won't be until my 40's that I will be free, yet in a field that may be declining in reimbursement and still hard hours?
No. I do not. I do no want that at all.
Am I saying that you should get a job as an actuary? Hell no. If that's not what you want, then don't do it. It's just an example. What I am saying? Take it from the guy in that link: Medicine probably isn't going to end up being the ideal profession you expect it to be. There are a lot of better alternatives.
I chuckle as I begin writing this post. I laugh not because medicine is a bad field in and of itself, but rather because of how medicine is changing, and also because of how medicine isn't changing. If you feel the need to comment on this post to reassure yourself that the decision to pursue medicine is the "right" endeavor for you, feel free. I understand: I did the same thing for many years. In fact, I'm not even writing this to dissuade aspiring doctors. I'm writing this just to get my voice out there.
Ever since I was a young child, I wanted to become a doctor. The field itself was very intriguing to me, and the prestige and money that "seemed" to accompany medicine acted as a snare as well. All throughout high school, medicine seemed like the only option for me. I did well in school and on standardized tests, and many of my superiors saw me as a practical and mature thinker.
Fast forward to this past August. I was frequenting SDN, and I was preparing for my first year of college. It was an exciting time, filled with the anticipation for opportunity. Given the amount of work that lied ahead for my pre-med self, I wanted to make sure that I knew everything that I needed to know by listening to members of this site, as well as doctors, residents, and members of medical academia on other sites.
This "research" of mine had an unexpected effect.
Countless members spoke of their rejections. Countless threads mentioned doctors who regretted pursuing a degree in medicine. Countless residents complained of their horrid hours and even worse social lives. On other websites, broader topics such as divorce rates and the effects of legislation (specifically Obamacare) were discussed. And of course, everything made medicine appear less and less appealing.
I wasn't going to quit though. Medicine was surely still the best option for me. I never dreamed of a future where the title of "doctor" didn't precede my last name.
A buddy of mine who was going into actuarial science started talking to me about his college plans. Not once did he try to persuade me against medicine, but what he said was incredibly influential.
He was going to a good school that wasn't very expensive. As an actuary, he would walk into a field that required nothing more than a bachelor's degree. I accompanied him when he met with his advisor before he year started (which I was surprised the advisor let me do), and that is when everything changed. The advisor, an 30-something-year-old, had been in the field of actuarial science for over ten years. He joined academia to get his summers off and longer breaks to spend with his children. But what did he say?
By the time many of that college's graduates turned 28, they were making nearly six figures.
After several years with a company, many of the graduates had a work-from-home day each week. Maybe even two.
The hours? 8-4:30 initially. Eventually the time spend at work would decrease to maybe 9-4:30 as the worker proved their capabilities.
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the expected job growth for actuaries was 26%.
I was shocked. "How could a four-year degree offer such a fantastic salary, lifestyle, and job growth?" That is a question I asked myself, and continued to ask myself long after the meeting ended.
No, this is not my plug for actuarial science. This is my plug against medicine. (Although actuarial science is indeed a fantastic field.)
Lifestyle
I don't feel like explaining this. You all know what I'm talking about, you're knowledgable on this subject. The best explanation I can offer is through this link. If you pay attention to anything in this thread, please pay attention to this link.
Debt, Salary, and Legislation
All of you know that debt sucks, and doctors have a lot of it. I'm not going to re-explain what all of you (should) already know. Salary and legislation on the other: How many of you realize that reimbursement for doctors is on the decline? How many of you know that in states like Minnesota, access to specialized doctors is being limited to a certain number of visits per year? Simple economics says that if you have less clients, you will receive less money. Hospitals won't be able to afford the large salaries of specialized physicians when the services of the physicians aren't being paid for as they were before.
Couple that with the increasing cost of schooling and you get a profession where the graduates end up in a very regrettable field.
The Result of Your Life
At age 22, my friend will end his schooling with a grand total of <$25k in debt. He will start anywhere between $50k and $65k, and in just a few years be making nearly $100k. If I stayed on the medical path? I would potentially be in medical school, indirectly making myself an indentured servant to the big banks of America. If I wasn't so lucky? I would become one of the 57% who didn't make it into medical school, effectively wasting my undergrad years, slaving away at shadowing, volunteering, incredibly difficult courses, and whatever else that could make me a good applicant.
At age 28, my friend was modest and fiscally responsible, he could be debt free. If not, he would have very little left to pay. Oh, and the company he's working at? Yeah, he's taken actuarial exams that have increased his pay by nearly double. His work has been stressful at times -- just like any profession -- but he's a lot less stressed than me, who is now worked 60-80 hours per week in a residency.
At age 34, I'm finally a licensed independent doctor. I'm freeeee- oh wait. No I'm not. I'm not even a little. I have roughly $200,000 in debt, and I'm still working arduous hours. My (dingus) friend? He's worked his way up in the company, or maybe he's found a better position and another company. He's making half as much as me. Ha! But wait -- he's been debt free for years, and he's able to focus on other things, like his 401k, retirement, and his house.
You see, at age 25, my buddy would be going out to the bars and getting nice dinners with dates and friends and coworkers. He would be living up his 20's in a STEM profession (mathematics, specifically) that is netting him an above-average salary that's increasing every year.
Reset. I'm 18 years old and just starting college.
Do I want to wait until I'm in my 30's to begin my life? Do I want to wait fifteen years to join a field that may or may not be what I expected? Do I want to put myself into such unforgivable debt that it won't be until my 40's that I will be free, yet in a field that may be declining in reimbursement and still hard hours?
No. I do not. I do no want that at all.
Am I saying that you should get a job as an actuary? Hell no. If that's not what you want, then don't do it. It's just an example. What I am saying? Take it from the guy in that link: Medicine probably isn't going to end up being the ideal profession you expect it to be. There are a lot of better alternatives.
No one said medicine was an easy path. You know exactly what you're signing up for. Its good you found out you dont wanna go down this path before it was too late.I chuckle as I begin writing this post. I laugh not because medicine is a bad field in and of itself, but rather because of how medicine is changing, and also because of how medicine isn't changing. If you feel the need to comment on this post to reassure yourself that the decision to pursue medicine is the "right" endeavor for you, feel free. I understand: I did the same thing for many years. In fact, I'm not even writing this to dissuade aspiring doctors. I'm writing this just to get my voice out there.
Ever since I was a young child, I wanted to become a doctor. The field itself was very intriguing to me, and the prestige and money that "seemed" to accompany medicine acted as a snare as well. All throughout high school, medicine seemed like the only option for me. I did well in school and on standardized tests, and many of my superiors saw me as a practical and mature thinker.
Fast forward to this past August. I was frequenting SDN, and I was preparing for my first year of college. It was an exciting time, filled with the anticipation for opportunity. Given the amount of work that lied ahead for my pre-med self, I wanted to make sure that I knew everything that I needed to know by listening to members of this site, as well as doctors, residents, and members of medical academia on other sites.
This "research" of mine had an unexpected effect.
Countless members spoke of their rejections. Countless threads mentioned doctors who regretted pursuing a degree in medicine. Countless residents complained of their horrid hours and even worse social lives. On other websites, broader topics such as divorce rates and the effects of legislation (specifically Obamacare) were discussed. And of course, everything made medicine appear less and less appealing.
I wasn't going to quit though. Medicine was surely still the best option for me. I never dreamed of a future where the title of "doctor" didn't precede my last name.
A buddy of mine who was going into actuarial science started talking to me about his college plans. Not once did he try to persuade me against medicine, but what he said was incredibly influential.
He was going to a good school that wasn't very expensive. As an actuary, he would walk into a field that required nothing more than a bachelor's degree. I accompanied him when he met with his advisor before he year started (which I was surprised the advisor let me do), and that is when everything changed. The advisor, an 30-something-year-old, had been in the field of actuarial science for over ten years. He joined academia to get his summers off and longer breaks to spend with his children. But what did he say?
By the time many of that college's graduates turned 28, they were making nearly six figures.
After several years with a company, many of the graduates had a work-from-home day each week. Maybe even two.
The hours? 8-4:30 initially. Eventually the time spend at work would decrease to maybe 9-4:30 as the worker proved their capabilities.
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the expected job growth for actuaries was 26%.
I was shocked. "How could a four-year degree offer such a fantastic salary, lifestyle, and job growth?" That is a question I asked myself, and continued to ask myself long after the meeting ended.
No, this is not my plug for actuarial science. This is my plug against medicine. (Although actuarial science is indeed a fantastic field.)
Lifestyle
I don't feel like explaining this. You all know what I'm talking about, you're knowledgable on this subject. The best explanation I can offer is through this link. If you pay attention to anything in this thread, please pay attention to this link.
Debt, Salary, and Legislation
All of you know that debt sucks, and doctors have a lot of it. I'm not going to re-explain what all of you (should) already know. Salary and legislation on the other: How many of you realize that reimbursement for doctors is on the decline? How many of you know that in states like Minnesota, access to specialized doctors is being limited to a certain number of visits per year? Simple economics says that if you have less clients, you will receive less money. Hospitals won't be able to afford the large salaries of specialized physicians when the services of the physicians aren't being paid for as they were before.
Couple that with the increasing cost of schooling and you get a profession where the graduates end up in a very regrettable field.
The Result of Your Life
At age 22, my friend will end his schooling with a grand total of <$25k in debt. He will start anywhere between $50k and $65k, and in just a few years be making nearly $100k. If I stayed on the medical path? I would potentially be in medical school, indirectly making myself an indentured servant to the big banks of America. If I wasn't so lucky? I would become one of the 57% who didn't make it into medical school, effectively wasting my undergrad years, slaving away at shadowing, volunteering, incredibly difficult courses, and whatever else that could make me a good applicant.
At age 28, my friend was modest and fiscally responsible, he could be debt free. If not, he would have very little left to pay. Oh, and the company he's working at? Yeah, he's taken actuarial exams that have increased his pay by nearly double. His work has been stressful at times -- just like any profession -- but he's a lot less stressed than me, who is now worked 60-80 hours per week in a residency.
At age 34, I'm finally a licensed independent doctor. I'm freeeee- oh wait. No I'm not. I'm not even a little. I have roughly $200,000 in debt, and I'm still working arduous hours. My (dingus) friend? He's worked his way up in the company, or maybe he's found a better position and another company. He's making half as much as me. Ha! But wait -- he's been debt free for years, and he's able to focus on other things, like his 401k, retirement, and his house.
You see, at age 25, my buddy would be going out to the bars and getting nice dinners with dates and friends and coworkers. He would be living up his 20's in a STEM profession (mathematics, specifically) that is netting him an above-average salary that's increasing every year.
Reset. I'm 18 years old and just starting college.
Do I want to wait until I'm in my 30's to begin my life? Do I want to wait fifteen years to join a field that may or may not be what I expected? Do I want to put myself into such unforgivable debt that it won't be until my 40's that I will be free, yet in a field that may be declining in reimbursement and still hard hours?
No. I do not. I do no want that at all.
Am I saying that you should get a job as an actuary? Hell no. If that's not what you want, then don't do it. It's just an example. What I am saying? Take it from the guy in that link: Medicine probably isn't going to end up being the ideal profession you expect it to be. There are a lot of better alternatives.
More like "menial life with boring hours and low pay." Watch as OP fails all the math and business classes before even taking the actuarial exams, which he'll probably fail too. Watch as OP is a pathetic panicky college senior in 3 years who can't get a job (or has to settle with a sh**ty menial entry level job with sh** hours and low pay.This is quite possibly the biggest piece of self righteous bullsh*t I have ever read on SDN. You are 18 years old. You have no actual perspective on life, yet you're trying to wax poetic while lecturing a group of people that are older, more experienced, and more accomplished than yourself. You and I both know this post was nothing more than a self serving endeavor. But as long as you're fine with "giving up" on the path you never even started, I guess we'll be fine too.
Enjoy your cushy life with short hours and high pay. We'll be the ones who save you 50 years down the road once your anger with a boring career gives you a heart attack.
Edit: Oh, I get it now. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/im-struggling-to-pursue-medical-school.1094927/
I'm sorry, but $100k/yr is a lot of money. Maybe you can't own yachts, helicopters, and a summer home in Martha's Vineyard, but it's enough that you can live without a budget and the money you have to throw around for impulse buys is in the thousands, not the tens or hundreds. In short, it's enough for a life which would be considered pretty luxurious by 95% of people on the planet.I'm not knocking your decision, and honestly I think you made the right choice. However, I don't want you to think that $100k/year is a lot of money. It seems like a lot when you're young, because you're basically making zero now. When you have a house and a family though, it's not very much, unless your wife is making a similar amount. I personally made roughly $100k/year for the last couple of years. It's certainly not a surgeon's lifestyle, that's for sure.
I'm sorry, but $100k/yr is a lot of money. Maybe you can't own yachts, helicopters, and a summer home in Martha's Vineyard, but it's enough that you can live without a budget and the money you have to throw around for impulse buys is in the thousands, not the tens or hundreds. In short, it's enough for a life which would be considered pretty luxurious by 95% of people on the planet.
And guess what, more and more people are waiting until their 30s to marry and have kids. Like your life is going to be any more affected if you started at 31 rather than 26. A difference of 5 years is marginal 20-30 years from now.. . .
I live in one of the highest cost-of-living cities in the US and we make less than $100k for a multi-person house and we've got at least the lifestyle I described.Depends where u live and what youre expectations are.
I'm from one of the lowest COL areas in the country and growing up my parents average combined income was ~$100K. What you're suggesting is very far from reality, unless you want to live paycheck to paycheck and have little to no savings.I'm sorry, but $100k/yr is a lot of money...it's enough that you can live without a budget and the money you have to throw around for impulse buys is in the thousands...
Because you can do so much with just a degree in biology, zoology, math, physics, microbiology, etc.
I'm from one of the lowest COL areas in the country and growing up my parents average combined income was ~$100K. What you're suggesting is very far from reality, unless you want to live paycheck to paycheck and have little to no savings.
I'm glad you made up your mind. I've been debating the same thing myself a lot lately and found that this website definitely helped put things into perspective for me:
http://jakeseliger.com/2012/10/20/why-you-should-become-a-nurse-or-physicians-assistant-instead-of-a-doctor-the-underrated-perils-of-medical-school/
More like "menial life with boring hours and low pay." Watch as OP fails all the math and business classes before even taking the actuarial exams, which he'll probably fail too. Watch as OP is a pathetic panicky college senior in 3 years who can't get a job (or has to settle with a sh**ty menial entry level job with sh** hours and low pay.
Not really. Trolls are pathetic regardless. I was just agreeing with all the people who *actually* have the life experience and knowledge to know how this sh** works. Also, you posted a ridiculously naive blanket statement and assumed you knew better. You were *asking* for it when people shat on you.Ah, I really got you didn't I? 😉
Not really. Trolls are pathetic regardless. I was just agreeing with all the people who *actually* have the life experience and knowledge to know how this sh** works. Also, you posted a ridiculously naive blanket statement and assumed you knew better. You were *asking* for it when people shat on you.
Not really. Trolls are pathetic regardless. I was just agreeing with all the people who *actually* have the life experience and knowledge to know how this sh** works. Also, you posted a ridiculously naive blanket statement and assumed you knew better. You were *asking* for it when people shat on you.
When an 18 year old kid comes on to SDN to write a long, condescending post as if he is so much smarter than everyone for seeing the light and not choosing to pursue medicine, on a forum frequented not only by premeds, but by medical students, residents, and attendings, he is going to get some disrespectful comments, and the more humorous ones are going to get upvoted. You reap what you sow.What the heck is wrong with people here? Is sad to see that the more liked and disrespectful comments are from the SDN superstars.