Why I'm leaving ACEP

[Malignant Fibromyalgia]

This is a copy of the letter I sent ACEP:


Dearest ACEP,


I don’t know how to put this any other way, but I think we should break up. I know we have been together for many years and things were getting serious between us. I gave you thousands of dollars, and you gave me your fellowship pin. Although, it’s true I never got around to telling my parents about you.


It’s not you, it’s me. You deserve someone more up to your standards. I have a dirty secret that I have never told you. I have been cheating on you. Not only with AAEM [1] (what can I say, they like me just the way I am—plus that minute man really fills out his breeches [2]), but also with the NRA.


That’s right, all these years when you thought I was NOT a cold-blooded child murderer, I was really a gun owner.


I knew about your firearm policy when I joined [3]. I thought I could slip by—that maybe you didn’t really know what you wanted. After all, you don’t have a policy about what types of cars, swimming pools, knives, pressure cookers, fertilizer, and other dangerous objects the government should allow its subjects to possess. Neither is there a policy for or against abortion, even though there were more than 80 times as many abortions as firearm homicides in 2014 (most recent year data available) [4,5]. Because of this I saw some sense in you, like maybe you didn’t feel the need to comment on issues that were out of your purview.


But no, you had to find the hottest political button you could and take a very vague stand on it. After all, what does “restrict the sale and ownership of weapons, munitions, and large-capacity magazines that are designed for military or law enforcement use” mean? Since you want to restrict not just sales, but ownership, will ACEP members be asked to go door-to-door rounding up existent firearms? What is military use? The military uses automatic weapons, which have been not been sold to civilians since 1986 [6]. What is a large-capacity magazine? I have to admit that lugging around a 100-round drum can get tiring [7]. But, after reading about all the stumping Dr. Paul Kivela has done over the past few months [8,9], I can see that this language is just politi-speak for equipment that is in common use today—equipment that I, my family, my neighbors, and many of my friends have in spades.


So, you see, my “kind” and I are horrible people with blood on our hands. You are too good for my world. I will always think of you fondly, even if you bad-mouth me to your friends. Every year on our anniversary I will take the money I would have put toward membership and buy a gun to remember you by.


With love,


Dr. M



1. AAEM


2. No reference needed. I mean just look at the guy!


3. Firearm Safety and Injury Prevention // ACEP (accessed 2/25/2018)


4. Abortion Surveillance — United States, 2014 (accessed 2/25/2018)


5. Expanded Homicide Data Table 8 (accessed 2/25/2018)


6. S.49 - 99th Congress (1985-1986): Firearms Owners' Protection Act


7. AR-15 Drum Magazine, .223 Caliber, Black, 100 Rounds - 292604, Rifle Mags at Sportsman's Guide (accessed 2/25/2018)


8. ACEP Statement on Florida School Mass Shooting (accessed 2/25/2018)


9. ACEP Statement on Mass Shooting at Texas Church (accessed 2/25/2018)

*It is interesting to note that Dr. Kivela used the same shtick in the Sutherland Springs shooting. This case is one of the most blatant examples of a good guy with an “evil assault weapon” heroically defeating an armed piece of excrement and saving lives.

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[Malignant Fibromyalgia]

I did receive a response from a very kind ACEP physician, whose privacy I will respect on this forum. I hope I can give his response fairly and accurately without directly quoting him, but he stated that per his knowledge the vague language of the policy was a compromise—so that ACEP wasn’t advocating any specific measures. For example, “military use” could be construed to mean fully automatic weapons, which are already banned.


The problem is that ACEP is going around publishing its policy in press releases regarding mass shootings. Despite what the original intent was, ACEP appears publicly to be positioning itself against gun owners. I have a real problem giving money to people who are advocating against my rights. I told this ACEP physician I would think about it more before completely renouncing ACEP—and membership renewals aren’t until June anyway.


Thoughts?

 

[deleted480308]

I did receive a response from a very kind ACEP physician, whose privacy I will respect on this forum. I hope I can give his response fairly and accurately without directly quoting him, but he stated that per his knowledge the vague language of the policy was a compromise—so that ACEP wasn’t advocating any specific measures. For example, “military use” could be construed to mean fully automatic weapons, which are already banned.


The problem is that ACEP is going around publishing its policy in press releases regarding mass shootings. Despite what the original intent was, ACEP appears publicly to be positioning itself against gun owners. I have a real problem giving money to people who are advocating against my rights. I told this ACEP physician I would think about it more before completely renouncing ACEP—and membership renewals aren’t until June anyway.


Thoughts?

A compromise would have been to stay silent on the topic and not print a new policy in the middle of a firestorm.

There are clearly enough people there who want to start bans that they can push this stuff and use the weight of the entire organization to add validity to their personal opinion

 

[bravotwozero]

I couldn’t care less about their stance on firearms... their collusion with CMGs is a far more serious problem.


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[Malignant Fibromyalgia]

A compromise would have been to stay silent on the topic and not print a new policy in the middle of a firestorm.

There are clearly enough people there who want to start bans that they can push this stuff and use the weight of the entire organization to add validity to their personal opinion

The policy is not new, it has been on the books for a while. I am sure that when it was written in less crazy times the big wigs at ACEP were just virtue signaling to their liberal friends. However, now that there is momentum for gun bans it could be significant. Political activists and operatives are now forcing people to choose sides. ACEP chose a side, and I feel like I am forced to as well.

You are very correct that ACEP should have no opinion on this topic. They represent a diverse group of people, and it is idiotic that they would make a policy about something that is none of their damn business. I expect them to stick to emergency medicine, and neither support nor attack gun rights. (There are organizations for each side if someone is interested.) ACEP should stay out of people's gun safes, just like they stay out of people's wombs and bedrooms.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

I couldn’t care less about their stance on firearms... their collusion with CMGs is a far more serious problem.


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Yep, didn't renew once residency membership expired. Think I'll just give whatever ACEP membership costs to AAEM if they have something other than membership dues that takes money.

 

[deleted480308]

Yep, didn't renew once residency membership expired. Think I'll just give whatever ACEP membership costs to AAEM if they have something other than membership dues that takes money.

They do, I don’t know the initials but it’s essentially a PAC

 

[Alvarez13]

I couldn’t care less about their stance on firearms... their collusion with CMGs is a far more serious problem.


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This is my reasoning for not renewing as well.

 

[EKGdoc]

Don't forget AAEM president Kevin Rodgers was a gun violence victim.

 

[deleted480308]

Don't forget AAEM president Kevin Rodgers was a gun violence victim.

His death, while tragic, does not at all have anything to do with banning entire classes of firearms

 

[Angry Birds]

His death, while tragic, does not at all have anything to do with banning entire classes of firearms

Yes I agree. No matter how many people die from guns, we can’t ban them. In fact we should increase them because that will solve the problem.

 

[deleted480308]

Yes I agree. No matter how many people die from guns, we can’t ban them. In fact we should increase them because that will solve the problem.

Disarming the innocent is a bad idea

 

[Malignant Fibromyalgia]

Don't forget AAEM president Kevin Rodgers was a gun violence victim.

He was a victim of a home invasion/murder. Those who are charged in his murder were in illegal possession of firearms. If anything, this is yet another example why I arm myself to protect my family.

 

[GeneralVeers]

I left ACEP 2 years ago for a number of issues. I can't give money to a lobbying organization that promotes issues I am opposed to:

1. Tacit approval of ACA
2. Having Paul Begala as a guest speaker to explain the wonders of the ACA
3. CMG support
4. Taking money from Dominic, Teamhealth, Envision etc
5. Supporting the huge parties, while fun are just recruitment tools so the CMGs can brainwash and abuse new grads. #MeToo
6. Always having their SA in the fall in cold weather places. (Vegas is their only rotated site with decent late october weather)

So I will see you all at AAEM SA in sunny San Diego this April!

 

[Perrotfish]

Disarming the innocent is a bad idea

If you mean it's a bad idea in terms of public safety then all evidence is against your opinion. Suicides, homicides (both conventional and mass shootings) and accidental deaths all increase with firearm accessibility.

If you're arguing that there are other concerns that counterbalance the concern for public safety then that's a conversation. You could argue that personal freedom, in this case, is a higher priority than public safety, or that easily available firearms are a nation's last defense against tyranny and invasion. However if you are arguing that the easy access to guns makes Americans less likely to be murdered then you are wrong.

 

[Apollyon]

I left ACEP 2 years ago for a number of issues. I can't give money to a lobbying organization that promotes issues I am opposed to:

1. Tacit approval of ACA
2. Having Paul Begala as a guest speaker to explain the wonders of the ACA
3. CMG support
4. Taking money from Dominic, Teamhealth, Envision etc
5. Supporting the huge parties, while fun are just recruitment tools so the CMGs can brainwash and abuse new grads. #MeToo
6. Always having their SA in the fall in cold weather places. (Vegas is their only rotated site with decent late october weather)

So I will see you all at AAEM SA in sunny San Diego this April!

ACEP SA this year is in San Diego.

 

[GeneralVeers]

ACEP SA this year is in San Diego.

I didn't even look this year. Guess I have to re-join.

 

[Birdstrike]

I did receive a response from a very kind ACEP physician, whose privacy I will respect on this forum. I hope I can give his response fairly and accurately without directly quoting him, but he stated that per his knowledge the vague language of the policy was a compromise—so that ACEP wasn’t advocating any specific measures. For example, “military use” could be construed to mean fully automatic weapons, which are already banned.


The problem is that ACEP is going around publishing its policy in press releases regarding mass shootings. Despite what the original intent was, ACEP appears publicly to be positioning itself against gun owners. I have a real problem giving money to people who are advocating against my rights. I told this ACEP physician I would think about it more before completely renouncing ACEP—and membership renewals aren’t until June anyway.


Thoughts?

Over the years, it's seemed to me that the big medical organizations, tend to do what's best for the people in the organizations, not the docs in the trenches. They've always seemed highly political at the expense of being advocates for their members. They always seem to clamor for socialized medicine and provide no meaningful pushback, no matter how boneheaded a new policy proposed by the powers that be. They seem to suck up to the government and not only accept, but willingly promote all the awful, worthless, productivity destroying, soul-sucking, regulatory, box-checking, metrics, and 'measures,' that we as doctors know do not improve patient care (and can actually increase patient deaths) and that make our jobs more difficult and less rewarding.

So, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that one of these organizations has sided with left-wing policy, socialized-medicine crowd, since these are the same people who seem willing to allow without pushback and even assist in the further destruction of the practice of medicine by corporatizing it, and continue to demoralize doctors by marching towards the full force and fury of socialized medicine and total regulatory control, that they've inflicted upon the Veterans Administration system.

 

[GeneralVeers]

So, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that one of these organizations has sided with left wing policy crowd, since these are the same people who seem willing to allow without pushback and even assist in the further destruction of the practice of medicine by corporatizing it, and continue to demoralize doctors by marching towards the full force and fury of socialized medicine and total regulatory control, that they've so brilliantly field tested in the Veterans Administration system.

Like any organization they are drawn to their financial interests. The CMGs give boatloads of money to ACEP. The best interests of the CMG lie in socialized medicine (every patient is a paying patient!). More regulations, MIPS, and hoops means the larger CMGS are better suited and organized to adress government nonsense than a smaller SDG with limited non-physician staff.

 

[Birdstrike]

He was a victim of a home invasion/murder. Those who are charged in his murder were in illegal possession of firearms. If anything, this is yet another example why I arm myself to protect my family.

Yes, he was a victim of a home invasion (Kevin Rogers MD. 2016).

So were Dr. Richard Field and Dr. Lina Bolanos. 2017.

So was Dr William Petit (his family was killed, he barely survived. 2007)

So, choose:

A) Wait for gun control to happen, and have an effect, or
B) Take a gun class, get a fingerprint gun safe and defend yourself, or
C) Both A & B.

 

[Malignant Fibromyalgia]

Yes, he was a victim of a home invasion (Kevin Rogers MD. 2016).

So were Dr. Richard Field and Dr. Lina Bolanos. 2017.

So was Dr William Petit (his family was killed, he barely survived. 2007)

So, choose:

A) Wait for gun control to happen, and have an effect, or
B) Take a gun class, get a fingerprint gun safe and defend yourself, or
C) Both A & B.

Option A has been working well in Chicago, Baltimore, and other cities.

 

[Trollest]

Option A has been working well in Chicago, Baltimore, and other cities.

It has. The issue with the states you have cited is that people from OTHER STATES are smuggling guns in. Ban guns everywhere and this won't be a problem.

 

[deleted480308]

If you mean it's a bad idea in terms of public safety then all evidence is against your opinion. Suicides, homicides (both conventional and mass shootings) and accidental deaths all increase with firearm accessibility.

If you're arguing that there are other concerns that counterbalance the concern for public safety then that's a conversation. You could argue that personal freedom, in this case, is a higher priority than public safety, or that easily available firearms are a nation's last defense against tyranny and invasion. However if you are arguing that the easy access to guns makes Americans less likely to be murdered then you are wrong.

Freedom has a cost.

I don't think it makes sense to restrict what person A can have because person B might misuse it

 

[Trollest]

Freedom has a cost.

I don't think it makes sense to restrict what person A can have because person B might misuse it

Well my friend, using that logic. Let me ask you, where is your nuclear bomb?
Assuming you don't have one, do you think it's logical for someone to own one?

 

[Malignant Fibromyalgia]

It has. The issue with the states you have cited is that people from OTHER STATES are smuggling guns in. Ban guns everyone and this won't be a problem.

Gun control is like socialism. If it isn’t working it’s because we need more of it!

You bring up a great point. All those smuggled guns are illegal. The laws make no difference. The criminals will always have guns. With 300 million plus guns in the US you could stop all production today and there will always be a black market. Good luck rounding them up.

I am keeping all of mine, thanks.

 

[Trollest]

Gun control is like socialism. If it isn’t working it’s because we need more of it!

You bring up a great point. All those smuggled guns are illegal. The laws make no difference. The criminals will always have guns. With 300 million plus guns in the US you could stop all production today and there will always be a black market. Good luck rounding them up.

I am keeping all of mine, thanks.

You can't possibly say that. I respect your love for guns but when was the last time someone (excluding terrors attacks) got shot in England?

 

[carbonizedeyesockets]

Of all the problems with ACEP, it was their stance on guns that pushed you away?

That’s kind of embarrassing.

 

[bravotwozero]

Of all the problems with ACEP, it was their stance on guns that pushed you away?

That’s kind of embarrassing.

Took the words right out of my mouth...


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[Trollest]

Of all the problems with ACEP, it was their stance on guns that pushed you away?

That’s kind of embarrassing.

I guess the NRA endorsement was the straw that broke "his" camel's back

 

[Malignant Fibromyalgia]

You can't possibly say that. I respect your love for guns but when was the last time someone (excluding terrors attacks) got shot in England?

On a per capita basis, the utopian EU has more mass shootings than the United States.

 

[Malignant Fibromyalgia]

Of all the problems with ACEP, it was their stance on guns that pushed you away?

That’s kind of embarrassing.

I don’t understand. Why would I be embarrassed?

 

[Trollest]

Funny how, even a respected physician, will reach for shady stats to prove their opinion.

So when was the last time we had, as you quote a public mass shooting in chicago, detroit or any other liberal states whose gun laws, you "vehemently" despize? I feel like you are comparing apples and oranges. I refuse to believe that there were only 199 gun related deaths in the US from 09 -15.

But we both know, and i know you do deep down, that the paper you posted is irrelevant.

On a per capita basis, the utopian EU has more mass shootings than the United States.

View attachment 230073 View attachment 230074

 

[carbonizedeyesockets]

I don’t understand. Why would I be embarrassed?

Because that gun statement has next to zero impact on your job or the practice of EM. CMGs on the other hand...

Also, you invoking abortion and knives and fertilizer, etc was a garbage move. Anyone who makes any intelligent comparison between such will quickly realize they are not at all the same and reject your argument.

 

[Malignant Fibromyalgia]

Funny how, even a respected physician, will reach for shady stats to prove their opinion.

So when was the last time we had, as you quote a public mass shooting in chicago, detroit or any other liberal states whose gun laws, you "vehemently" despize? I feel like you are comparing apples and oranges. I refuse to believe that there were only 199 gun related deaths in the US from 09 -15.

But we both know, and i know you do deep down, that the paper you posted is irrelevant.

No need to get angry! It will be ok.

You asked for examples of shootings in other countries. I gave you some. The data are specific, with dates and names of shooters. It should be easy to find online. You are free to research it and refute it.

In other news, we will never convince each other, which is fine. I will keep my lifestyle. I wish you well in yours.

 

[BoardingDoc]

On a per capita basis, the utopian EU has more mass shootings than the United States.

View attachment 230073 View attachment 230074

While that's an interesting statistic, your overall chance of being murdered in the US (either via mass shooting or just getting shot as old fashioned murder) is still much higher than it is in the EU.
The US has a gun homicide rate which is 25.2 times higher than in other high-income countries.

It isn't like everyone over there is killing each other with knives instead, they just aren't killing each other nearly as often. We have a higher murder rate than any country in the EU with the exception of Lithuania.

 

[Money Moniker]

Over the years, it's seemed to me that the big medical organizations, tend to do what's best for the people in the organizations, not the docs in the trenches. They've always seemed highly political at the expense of being advocates for their members. They always seem to clamor for socialized medicine and provide no meaningful pushback, no matter how boneheaded a new policy proposed by the powers that be. They seem to suck up to the government and not only accept, but willingly promote all the awful, worthless, productivity destroying, soul-sucking, regulatory, box-checking, metrics, and 'measures,' that we as doctors know do not improve patient care and that make our jobs more difficult and less rewarding.

So, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that one of these organizations has sided with left-wing policy, socialized-medicine crowd, since these are the same people who seem willing to allow without pushback and even assist in the further destruction of the practice of medicine by corporatizing it, and continue to demoralize doctors by marching towards the full force and fury of socialized medicine and total regulatory control, that they've inflicted upon the Veterans Administration system.

Absolutely. This has been observed unfailingly for so long that "laws" have been coined for it in the same vein as "Moore's Law" and "Murphy's Law".

First 2 of Robert Conquest's Three Laws of Politics:

1. Any organization not explicitly right-wing sooner or later becomes left-wing.
2. The simplest way to explain the behavior of any bureaucratic organization is to assume that it is controlled by a cabal of the enemies of the stated purpose of that bureaucracy.

Fits the medical lobbying groups to an effing tee. Completely leftist-converged, and diligently working against the interests of the rank-and-file physicians who they ostensibly represent.

 

[Trollest]

Not true. Here is what i said:

You can't possibly say that. I respect your love for guns but when was the last time someone (excluding terrors attacks) got shot in England?
I might be wrong on this by I thought public mass shootings were classified as terror attacks?

No need to get angry! It will be ok.

You asked for examples of shootings in other countries. I gave you some. The data are specific, with dates and names of shooters. It should be easy to find online. You are free to research it and refute it.

In other news, we will never convince each other, which is fine. I will keep my lifestyle. I wish you well in yours.

 

[W19]

Gun control is like socialism. If it isn’t working it’s because we need more of it!

You bring up a great point. All those smuggled guns are illegal. The laws make no difference. The criminals will always have guns. With 300 million plus guns in the US you could stop all production today and there will always be a black market. Good luck rounding them up.

I am keeping all of mine, thanks.

Do not put any speed limit signs on these roads since there is always someone who will drive above the speed limit...

 

[slatermd]

invoking abortion and knives and fertilizer, etc was a garbage move. Anyone who makes any intelligent comparison between such will quickly realize they are not at all the same and reject your argument.

It’s not that different than comparing gun violence in the US to that in other countries where civilians don’t have the right to bear arms, and insinuating that the only difference between the two nations is that pesky 2nd amendment. I mean, everything else about separate nations with distinct histories, populations, economies, and geographies is the same, right? Confounding variables be damned.

 

[Trollest]

It’s not that different than comparing gun violence in the US to that in other countries where civilians don’t have the right to bear arms, and insinuating that the only difference between the two nations is that pesky 2nd amendment. I mean, everything else about separate nations with distinct histories, populations, economies, and geographies is the same, right? Confounding variables be damned.

I cant believe people take you guys seriously. Arguing for the sake of it.

 

[slatermd]

I cant believe people take you guys seriously. Arguing for the sake of it.

SDN. Arguing for the sake of it since 1993. (Or whenever Al Gore invented the internets)

 

[Status Sciaticus]

I left ACEP 2 years ago for a number of issues. I can't give money to a lobbying organization that promotes issues I am opposed to:

1. Tacit approval of ACA
2. Having Paul Begala as a guest speaker to explain the wonders of the ACA
3. CMG support
4. Taking money from Dominic, Teamhealth, Envision etc
5. Supporting the huge parties, while fun are just recruitment tools so the CMGs can brainwash and abuse new grads. #MeToo
6. Always having their SA in the fall in cold weather places. (Vegas is their only rotated site with decent late october weather)

So I will see you all at AAEM SA in sunny San Diego this April!

So leaving ACEP solves the problem how?? This is akin to people not casting a vote as a moral gesture because they do not like the current state of affairs.
You say the problem is the financial dependence of ACEP on CMGs. Having EPs (and their dues/contributions along with them) leave ACEP leads to the groups further dependence on CMG's financially because other revenue streams are drying up.
I do agree that AAEM is more in line with physician goals than that of CMGs, but their reach is nowhere near that of ACEPs, and thus the influence exerted is much more limited.

 

[Apollyon]

I cant believe people take you guys seriously. Arguing for the sake of it.

Who are you, though? Are you EM? Are you a doc? If you are not, and you came into this forum to troll/antagonize, believe me - that is a black-letter bannable offense. It's not my rules - it's SDN rules.

 

[Trollest]

Who are you, though? Are you EM? Are you a doc? If you are not, and you came into this forum to troll/antagonize, believe me - that is a black-letter bannable offense. It's not my rules - it's SDN rules.

lol, I am a premed student and how is that trolling when my points are valid?

 

[Apollyon]

lol, I am a premed student and how is that trolling when my points are valid?

Doesn't matter. You can't come into a forum on SDN and do that. That's the rules.

 

[Birdstrike]

Not true. Here is what i said:

You can't possibly say that. I respect your love for guns but when was the last time someone (excluding terrors attacks) got shot in England?
I might be wrong on this by I thought public mass shootings were classified as terror attacks?

You can't exclude terror attacks. Those victims are just as entitled to life, and defending theirs, as anyone else.

 

[Birdstrike]

So leaving ACEP solves the problem how?? This is akin to people not casting a vote as a moral gesture because they do not like the current state of affairs.
You say the problem is the financial dependence of ACEP on CMGs. Having EPs (and their dues/contributions along with them) leave ACEP leads to the groups further dependence on CMG's financially because other revenue streams are drying up.
I do agree that AAEM is more in line with physician goals than that of CMGs, but their reach is nowhere near that of ACEPs, and thus the influence exerted is much more limited.

There's two ways of looking at it. One line of thinking says you should join such an organization you think isn't representing you, to change it and make it represent you. The other is, that by supporting and donating money to such an organization that acts against your interests, amounts to acting against your own interests.

Choose one.

 

[Trollest]

You can't exclude terror attacks. Those victims are just as entitled to life, and defending theirs, as anyone else.

Well that was the question i asked. And including terror attack would have skew the data because most of the terror attacks from 09-15 were done by Lybian and syria expatriate.

 

[Birdstrike]

Well that was the question i asked. And including terror attack would have skew the data anyay since most europeans are prone to violence. As a matter of fact, most of the terror attact from 09-15 were done by Lybian and syria expatriate.

Huh?

 

[Trollest]

Doesn't matter. You can't come into a forum on SDN and do that. That's the rules.

Do what? I have never trolled on SDN, so i am having a hard time getting your point. It takes energy to come on this website and type. As someone with a life, i dont know why i would do such a thing for 7+ months.