Why in the world do people say dont go into medicine for the $$$???

[Chris127]

I love medicine. I really do. My dad is an endincrinologist, my cousin a residential ortho surgeon (2nd year), and I have shadowed both and just really love it. I have also always considered physicians to be paid VERY well. Then I come on to SDN and many people say, "hey, physician salaries are decreasing, if you want money medicine is not for you."

How so? I have 2 cousins that are residents, the ortho resident, and a chief residnent in OB/GYN. She is 29, and has already been offered a job when she gets out paying her about 300k a year to start. Med school is nearly paid off, and this place will cover her mal practice. She is 29, and will be bringing in 300k a year.

Now people on here say there are cheaper, faster ways to make more money. Well step up to the plate and tell me specifically what these careers are. Its not going to sway my future career, because I really do love medicine, but what are these other jobs that are more stable and have higher payouts? Sure, a business major every now and then will break out, but that is unstable and the majority of people fail.

So what are these jobs? 29 years old making 300k a year, extremely stable position, with revenue likely to increase over the years. What beats this?

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[HamOnWholeWheat]

1) According to some, revenue is likely to decrease in the coming years, as it has in the recent past. Then again, this is subject to a lot of debate, and is highly dependent on specialty.

2) Real Estate, Finance (Securities Trading), Sales. Those are the big three I think of when I think of where the big money is. I agree, the majority will fail to really hit it big in these fields, but I think the idea is that if you're motivated enough to kill yourself to succeed in med school, you likely won't be one of the failures should you choose Real Estate instead. And before anyone says "but the real-estate bubble is gonna burst"; relax, it was just an example.

3) As far as the "guaranteed money" aspect goes, not everyone can be an orthopedic surgeon. I'm happy that your cousin found an OB/GYN job that pays 300k/yr., but I think that's the highest salary I've ever heard of for an OB. And to get malpractice coverage on top of that (essentially a $50,000/yr. bonus depending on location), that's really one heck of a good deal. Maybe things are turning around for OB's; good for them!

Lastly, even 300k/yr. is peanuts compared to what a reasonably successful securities trader/salesman makes. I know this is just circumstantial, but I personally know three people who I graduated high school with who went on to securities, and two who sell tooling contracts for John Deere, and all of them would snicker if I said I would someday make 300k/yr. after working my tail off in medical school and residency.

Being a doctor just isn't the financial pinnacle it once was. I think that's all people mean when they say "don't go in it for the money". If you like money, go into a career where the whole point is to make money. Nothing wrong with that, its just not medicine.

HamOn

 

[ratjo077]

I live in Arkansas and know for a fact three OB/GYNs that pull in over $300,000 a year and they say that's pretty typical of the specialty in mid-sized towns throughout the South. Our regional hospital recently recruited a heart surgeon, luring him in with a guaranteed $1 million a year for three years.

 

[Chris127]

Would you agree with me though if I said that in medicine, you know thatif your persevere through med school and residency that there will be a job for you, where as for business there is never that gaurantee or certainty?

I mean in business/real estate/sales, if it was that easy everyone would be doing it, and everyone would be making more than physicians. The same can be said for med school/residency. However, I would imagine that more students that strive to get through MS/residency are more succesful monetraily than business majors that strive in their fields. I mean there arent too many everyday jobs that earn more financially than a physician.

It seems to end up like this, please correct me if I am wrong. Physician salaries and more certain and controlled, gauranteed anywhere from 150k to 500k a year, maybe and probably a little more. Business/real estate/ salaries are probably on average lower than physician salaries, but the business field has the break out person that will bring in major, major $$$.

edit: Yeah, some orthos, one in my neightborhood, specializes in feet injuries on athletes mostly, brings in about 1.3 a year.

 

[skypilot]

There are very few other jobs where you are guaranteed an upper middle class income and job security. There are also few jobs where a salary of $150k doesn't even raise an eyebrow.

In many other jobs if you make that kind of money business managers will always try to downsize you and you will have very little job security.

 

[YouDontKnowJack]

I'm guessing that there are more doctors than businessmen making 6 figures.

even businessmen have to go through years of lowly training and low pay. Usually you can't even get an MBA without 5 years of work experience at $40000/year.

 

[Chris127]

I'm guessing that there are more doctors than businessmen making 6 figures.

even businessmen have to go through years of lowly training and low pay. Usually you can't even get an MBA without 5 years of work experience at $40000/year.

Only to eventually get hired by some corp with a boss you hate and an upper 5 figure salary, with a lot of job instablity

 

[SkylineMD]

Only to eventually get hired by some corp with a boss you hate and an upper 5 figure salary, with a lot of job instablity

My brother and his friend both pull about 75+/year with only their BS degrees in computer science. They plan on doing a few more years of their work and go to one of the big name schools for MBA to push well past the 120k/year mark.

A friend of mine came from britain with his MBA and is working as an investment banker. He has been working for about 2years here and is pulling easily 200k/year. Another friend is working with some investment bankers and tells me that with their clientel they have been getting 500k+/year.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

4 years undergrad + 4 years medical school + 5 years Ortho Residency or 3 years OB/Gyn = 11 to 13 years of training to obtain your $300k a year. If you're in it for the money, the mistake starts right there. You can traing 10 years to become that financial guru the above was talking about and rake in a million a year - and those aren't a stressful 10 years. Let's see, you've not only paid through the first 9 years of medical training (ave. debt $300k?) but you've also lost on the opportunity cost of how much would you make during those 9 years? Let's see 9 years at a conservative $35,000 a year = $315,00. So now we're talking $600,000+ costs. Okay, so you get out and you get a job paying you $300k a year (that does not mean you pay off your loans right away). Figure your malpractice insurance, TAXES (35%?), overhead, other expenses, loans + interest, you really aren't sitting on a gold mine. So, I agree with all who say DON'T GO IN IT FOR THE MONEY. You can spend those 11 - 13 years mastering something that will make far more money with far less stress.

 

[pseudoknot]

You can traing 10 years to become that financial guru the above was talking about and rake in a million a year - and those aren't a stressful 10 years.

Investment banking isn't stressful? That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard; can you support this statement with evidence?

 

[MD Rapper]

x

 

[DrBowtie]

Investment banking isn't stressful? That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard; can you support this statement with evidence?

That was the first thing I thought of when I read.

IB is stressful and they often times pull the same hours as docs.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

That was the first thing I thought of when I read.

IB is stressful and they often times pull the same hours as docs.

They often pull the same hours as docs - do they have people's lives in their hands? Possible malpractice lawsuits? Relatives of deceased or handicapped patients to deal with? When I say not stressful, I am saying relatively. Everything is stressful to a certain point.

 

[beastmaster]

4 years undergrad + 4 years medical school + 5 years Ortho Residency or 3 years OB/Gyn = 11 to 13 years of training to obtain your $300k a year. If you're in it for the money, the mistake starts right there.

Your math and your reasoning is swiss cheese, full of holes. All I can say is:
4 years undergrad + 3 years experience to apply to business school + 2-3 years business school = ~10 years for $80k. There's your mistake.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

Your math and your reasoning is swiss cheese, full of holes. All I can say is:
4 years undergrad + 3 years experience to apply to business school + 2-3 years business school = ~10 years for $80k. There's your mistake.

Not talking about business school though... talking about making money and you can do that without your above 10 years.

 

[Chris127]

Not talking about business school though... talking about making money and you can do that without your above 10 years.

Salaires, median averages by state for iBankers

http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/vid-116226/fid-6886


Not impressive, even with the bonuses. The possibility is there for 500k, but it will take you 10 years to get there, and even then there is no gaurantee.

 

[Doggie]

So what are these jobs? 29 years old making 300k a year, extremely stable position, with revenue likely to increase over the years. What beats this?

Dentists.

4 years undergrad + 4 years dental school + (optional 1 year residency).
Minimum 1st year salary is $100k and it only grows from there.

No matter how you look at it, a general dentist will make more than a family practitioner.

 

[vhawk]

They often pull the same hours as docs - do they have people's lives in their hands? Possible malpractice lawsuits? Relatives of deceased or handicapped patients to deal with? When I say not stressful, I am saying relatively. Everything is stressful to a certain point.

Well, one could certainly argue that they DO hold peoples lives (financial lives at least) in their hands. Plus, why does that make it more stressful? There are lots of things that create stress, and just because some are more romantic doesn't mean they are more stressful.

 

[automaton]

Law is not exactly a cash cow. There are plenty of lawyers barely scraping by. Some are on salaries of just over 30K per year. I would say a large chunk of lawyers make 50-60K a year, even if they're from a very good school. Unless they work their ass off in a high powered firm, lawyers will likely not break 100K starting out, or for a good while afterwards. The highly paid lawyers that went straight to high powered firms are comparable to the high achieving doctors that go into ortho or plastics. They both will get paid well, maybe with some edge to the lawyers. But for the mortals in both fields, the grass is definitely greener on the medicine side, where even a bottom of the barrel doctor with piss poor grades from a crappy school and a crappy residency can still make 80k/yr. Try that in law.

Investment bankers work like crazy to make the money they do, and come on, their job sucks. They have no purpose or meaning in their job other than to make money. At least with medicine, even if you make under 100K a year, you still have the satisfaction of helping people. I know people make light of that, but assuming you went into medicine at least partly because you are interested in the field, how cool is it to get paid (and well) for something so rewarding personally?

 

[OnMyWayThere]

Well, one could certainly argue that they DO hold peoples lives (financial lives at least) in their hands. Plus, why does that make it more stressful? There are lots of things that create stress, and just because some are more romantic doesn't mean they are more stressful.

So you're saying managing somebody else's money or making money in real estate is as stressful as managing/saving someone else's life / dealing with cancer, death, etc.?

 

[KY1975]

I love medicine. I really do. My dad is an endincrinologist, my cousin a residential ortho surgeon (2nd year), and I have shadowed both and just really love it. I have also always considered physicians to be paid VERY well. Then I come on to SDN and many people say, "hey, physician salaries are decreasing, if you want money medicine is not for you."

How so? I have 2 cousins that are residents, the ortho resident, and a chief residnent in OB/GYN. She is 29, and has already been offered a job when she gets out paying her about 300k a year to start. Med school is nearly paid off, and this place will cover her mal practice. She is 29, and will be bringing in 300k a year.

Now people on here say there are cheaper, faster ways to make more money. Well step up to the plate and tell me specifically what these careers are. Its not going to sway my future career, because I really do love medicine, but what are these other jobs that are more stable and have higher payouts? Sure, a business major every now and then will break out, but that is unstable and the majority of people fail.

So what are these jobs? 29 years old making 300k a year, extremely stable position, with revenue likely to increase over the years. What beats this?

When I was 29 I was making roughly $170,000+ as a financial advisor with Poli Sci degree....all sales. In fact this was from my current client base at the time. My clients were all sitting in fee based products that paid me for hanging my hat on the wall when I got in th office. So long as my clients were happy the fees just came rolling in. It was so easy that I became disgusted with the business and decided to go the pre-med route which is where I am today. No I didn't hit $300,000 at 29 but I could have if that were the only satisfaction.

Consider the financial advisor fee based business. Simply a numbers game.

$50,000,000 in asset management among 166 client, $300,000 per client.
A fee of 1.5% equals $750,000 in gross fees and 45% net to the advisor or $337,000. I knew of other advisors who amassed a client base of that size by 30 with ease.

check out www.registeredrep.com or www.onwallstreet.com

 

[OnMyWayThere]

When I was 29 I was making roughly $170,000+ as a financial advisor with Poli Sci degree....all sales. In fact this was from my current client base at the time. My clients were all sitting in fee based products that paid me for hanging my hat on the wall when I got in th office. So long as my clients were happy the fees just came rolling in. It was so easy that I became disgusted with the business and decided to go the pre-med route which is where I am today.

I have a very similar situation to yours... good job. It's a huge change. (I don't get how someone can say it is as stressful as medicine - especially without experiencing it)

 

[PreMedAdAG]

California resident? 300,000/yr.... ?

cool, if you want to live in a cardboard box on the outskirts of the Bay Area or San Diego

i think most are right, there are just easier ways to make more money. Medicine offers good money in terms of stability... but hours are rocky and the amount of school needed is immense. I think most people take about 10 years to pay off their loans from med school.. that will make me.. oh lets see.. about 40 by the time I have everything paid off.. awesome.. just in time to put my kids college funds together

 

[KY1975]

I have a very similar situation to yours... good job. It's a huge change. (I don't get how someone can say it is as stressful as medicine - especially without experiencing it)

The only stress was from listening to the sales manager's incessant propaganda speech of selling more. I became sick when I realized I was judging people based on their bank account. The most disgusting aspect of the game is listening to another broker brag about how much he "grossed" last year. They never knew what the average return they earned as a professional but instead how much they made last year. Just a little rant. I tried going independent but it has been the same deal.

It is a different kind of stress but really does not compare to medicine. The most stress I saw my partner endure was the color of his BMW. He spent months regretting getting the windows tinted. I have not applied to med school yet but just some current thoughts from about stress & financial advisors.

 

[KY1975]

I have a very similar situation to yours... good job. It's a huge change. (I don't get how someone can say it is as stressful as medicine - especially without experiencing it)

Were you in retail brokerage at a wirehouse? If so I'd enjoy your story. You can PM if necessary. Thanks.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

Were you in retail brokerage at a wirehouse? If so I'd enjoy your story. You can PM if necessary. Thanks.

PM'd.

 

[beastmaster]

Salaires, median averages by state for iBankers

http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/vid-116226/fid-6886

Not impressive, even with the bonuses. The possibility is there for 500k, but it will take you 10 years to get there, and even then there is no gaurantee.

In addition, for every superstar in the ibanking world, to whom everyone so consistently points for examples of gettin rich outside medicine, you will find as many or more physicians who don't know what to do with their multi-millions.

If you want to compare professions, lets at least be fair and compare averages with evidence. Don't compare the anecdotes from the very top 1% of some profession with the average salaries of physicians, that's just deceitful.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

Bottom line is that there are other other careers that are more financially rewarding and less stressful than medicine. That's the bottom line. Of course, this is focusing on only finance and not job satisfaction.

 

[vhawk]

So you're saying managing somebody else's money or making money in real estate is as stressful as managing/saving someone else's life / dealing with cancer, death, etc.?

Are you saying that dealing with cancer and death is as stressful for me as it is for you? How about my sister, or the lady at the grocery store? People are different, and react to situations differently, and I don't think you can say that managing someone else's health (which is a JOB after all, and becomes repititious and routine like everything else) is any more innately stressful than managing millions of dollars and hundreds of lives in banking, managing maintanence of the public peace in being a police officer or maintaining the comfort and efficacy of everyone in an office building or factory as a janitor. The stress is the PERSON's reaction to their situation, and is more dependent on the person than the situation. If you put me on stage at Carnegie Hall, it would certainly be more stressful than pimping me around the cadaver but I bet a conductor wouldn't feel that way.

 

[vhawk]

I think the disagreement here is over the meaning of "more stressful." What i assume you mean is more socially accepted and dramatized stress. Just as the guy stressing over his BMW tinting seems foolish and not meaningfully stressful, thats a societal value judgement. If it stresses him, its stressful. Just because you say it shouldn't be or that it can't be as stressful as something "important" like saving lives doesn't make it so.

 

[YouDontKnowJack]

the way i see it.....

medicine provides a really good salary. people always get sick. steady income. No need to be top 5% to make a really good salary. Even average docs can make good money. No need to bust your ass on a low salary and HOPE for a bonus. No need to meet a cut off minimum.

Training? 7-9 years following undergrad.

Compare this to biz, training is 5 years in a cubicle. Then company pays for your MBA schooling. You get a pay raise to $90000. 10 years have passed. You have amassed a whopping 10 x $40000 = $400000 in wealth. and for the next 5 years, you earn $90000 yearly, while the Average Joe doc earns $200000/year. Oh yeah, during this time, you pray everyday for a bonus.

And you pray that you won't get fired for subpar performance.

That's just my uninformed view of things.

 

[Chris127]

the way i see it.....

medicine provides a really good salary. people always get sick. steady income. No need to be top 5% to make a really good salary. Even average docs can make good money. No need to bust your ass on a low salary and HOPE for a bonus. No need to meet a cut off minimum.

Training? 7-9 years following undergrad.

Compare this to biz, training is 5 years in a cubicle. Then company pays for your MBA schooling. You get a pay raise to $90000. 10 years have passed. You have amassed a whopping 10 x $40000 = $400000 in wealth. and for the next 5 years, you earn $90000 yearly, while the Average Joe doc earns $200000/year. Oh yeah, during this time, you pray everyday for a bonus.

And you pray that you won't get fired for subpar performance.

That's just my uninformed view of things.

I agree with that.

And again, were talking the average doc making 200k. CT, ortho surgeons can easily bring in over 700k.

 

[yellowcat322]

I know people who went the law route and who went the IB route and guess what... they are both totally miserable with their jobs. Their only consolation is that they get well compensated for it but hey, they don't have much free time for spending that money considering they sleep in their offices. Oh sure, you don;'t HAVE to do that - but then you're making very mediocre earnings. My point is that it's hard to consider a job based solely on the average salary -- if you actually enjoy what you do it may make the job worth more to you in the end. I feel that very very few people go into medicine just for the money. Most have at least some interest in medicine and that fact + job stability+ very comfortable (if not astronomical) salaries makes it a pretty well rounded choice, no? Why do you think you hear of so many people leaving their professions and going into medicine. THe only way to make easy money in this country is PURE LUCK and if you're relying on that then good luck to ya. And for those who constantly bring up the burden of student loan -- guess what -- you'll pay it off and still live comfortably and still put your kids through college -- GUARANTEED, so you can sleep easy.

 

[YouDontKnowJack]

i sell drugs part time to pay off my student loan. I'll be debt-free by the time i get my MD.

 

[Skialta]

I think you guys/girls are missing the point, I think you should choose a career in medicine only if you would not be happier doing something else. Shadowing some doc or spending a little time with a surgeon does not really give you an idea of what the true costs are.

1. Ignorance is bliss, learning the 50,000 ways you can die and learning that modern medicine can only cure a couple of diseases like infection, and early cancer if you cut it out (to name a couple). For the rest of them it is often a band aide fix, just look at psychiatry.

2. You work like a dog for many years, giving up weekends etc. Wait until some of you haven't slept in 36 hours and you still have to put together a presentation for your chief. And for all of you thinking you can just get the cush ENT, Derm, Rad, Gas residencies it is far easier said than done. You still have to bust your ass especially ENT and Gas, and the 80 hour work week ends when you leave residency or become a fellow, at the hospital I am at many of the attendings are putting in more time than the residents.

3. The patient population you deal mainly with is not far removed from what the police officer, fire department deal with on a regular basis, especially while you are training. You have to set aside any of your own morals while you are treating some of these patients, especially the likes of child molesters just as an example.

4. The reason most of your friends become physicians and you tend to lose contact with your old friends is because others just don't relate to the world you now live in. Only other docs know the crap you have to put up with on a daily basis.

These are some of the drawbacks of the field of medicine. I think physicians need to earn at least what they are making know just to kind of make up for the 8-12yrs of sacrifice it took to get where they are at. I love what I do, and do not regret my decision, but it would be naive to not recognize what the costs of that are.

Skialta

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Yeah, dentists make decent money for what few hours they work, but it has to be one of the more boring jobs out there. Go spend a few days around a general dentist's practice and see if around $150K per year (average for around here starting out) is enough to do that level of tedious work for hours on end.

 

[vigils]

Dentists.

4 years undergrad + 4 years dental school + (optional 1 year residency).
Minimum 1st year salary is $100k and it only grows from there.

No matter how you look at it, a general dentist will make more than a family practitioner.

This guys an idiot (Doggie). Try this fact, the average family practice salary is $170,283 while the average dumtist is only $135,750 (NY city monster.com). Thats a difference of 34533, over 20 years that's 690,660 more a physician makes, take into acount a 3 year residency of about 40,000 per year while a dumtist makes an average 135,750, the dumtist only nets 287,250 more over the three years, minus that from the 690,660 is 403,410 more dollars the physician will make over an average twenty years not taking into consideration inflation. In addition, medicine has opportunities past the clinical relm such as pharmaceuticals and more administrative positions such as Deans and Chairs of Departments at medical schools that you can slap on another 200,000 dollars per year with ease.

Here's some acurate information. Physicians hold the first top SEVEN! highest mean anual wages in the US and Dentist are number ten. Family practitioners are ranked at number six. Department of Laborhttp://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2004/nov/wk3/art01.htm

 

[Doggie]

This guys an idiot (Doggie). Try this fact, the average family practice salary is $170,283 while the average dumtist is only $135,750 (NY city monster.com).

Why dont you give me a more reputable source than some job ad internet site? Try ADA.org.....

"The average net income for an independent private practitioner who owned all or part of his or her practice in 2002 was $174,350 for a general practitioner (dentist) and $291,250 for a specialist."

"The average gross billing per owner dentist in 2002 was $550,920 for a general practitioner and $778,630 for a specialist."

I would know things from the dental perspective because I have already completed dental school, and now I am in the middle of med school finishing my my oral surgery residency. Yes, I also know things from the medical perspective.

You are right......I am an idiot. If I just wanted to make money, i wouldnt be wasting my time in medicine now.

 

[Lion-O]

In addition, for every superstar in the ibanking world, to whom everyone so consistently points for examples of gettin rich outside medicine, you will find as many or more physicians who don't know what to do with their multi-millions.

If you want to compare professions, lets at least be fair and compare averages with evidence. Don't compare the anecdotes from the very top 1% of some profession with the average salaries of physicians, that's just deceitful.

Why won't anyone listen to beastmaster? He's the only one saying anything that makes sense. Did none of you take statistics? Anecdotal evidence is the weakest kind. Yet everyone is like, "my cousin's friend makes $9 million with his high school degree. Medicine is dumb." Uh, not. Physicians, on average, are the highest paid of any career.

EVIDENCE:

 

[vigils]

Why dont you give me a more reputable source than some job ad internet site? Try ADA.org.....

"The average net income for an independent private practitioner who owned all or part of his or her practice in 2002 was $174,350 for a general practitioner (dentist) and $291,250 for a specialist."

"The average gross billing per owner dentist in 2002 was $550,920 for a general practitioner and $778,630 for a specialist."

I would know things from the dental perspective because I have already completed dental school, and now I am in the middle of med school finishing my my oral surgery residency. Yes, I also know things from the medical perspective.

You are right......I am an idiot. If I just wanted to make money, i wouldnt be wasting my time in medicine now.

I did give you a more reputable source, its called the US Department of Labor, the web link is clearly listed on my previous post.

Seriously, you have an odd outlook. I personally don't give a crap about the income, I would do it for say fifty sixty thousand a year, but the truth is everyone underestimates how much doctors make and the facts are they make by and large the highest anual salaries in the US.

 

[Lemont]

As usual when it comes to this topic, most people are missing the point and as if on cue start bringing up some 'friend of a friend' who is making lots of money in business, real estate, ostrich breeding, blah, blah, whatever.

No profession out there guarantees a high and stable income as long as you just go with the flow and basically show up and do just enough to get by. Just pass your classes, pass the boards, and you're into a residency program. Toe the line for a few years and you'll land a job making 6 figures. And your services are always in demand for very good money. And if you want to be a multi-millionaire doctor you can do that too if you pick the right specialty and location to set up shop.

 

[synapse lapse]

As usual when it comes to this topic, most people are missing the point and as if on cue start bringing up some 'friend of a friend' who is making lots of money in business, real estate, ostrich breeding, blah, blah, whatever.

No profession out there guarantees a high and stable income as long as you just go with the flow and basically show up and do just enough to get by. Just pass your classes, pass the boards, and you're into a residency program. Toe the line for a few years and you'll land a job making 6 figures. And your services are always in demand for very good money. And if you want to be a multi-millionaire doctor you can do that too if you pick the right specialty and location to set up shop.

Actually, pharmacy and dentistry do guarentee that. And doggie is correct, when it comes to all out money and lifestyle, nothing beats dentistry.General dentists average salary are equal to that of family practice physicians, and orthodontists/oral surgeons are averaging what surgeons make, working much less hours mind you. This doesn't even take into account the fact that you have many less years of schooling in dentistry, and that most of your work is cash upfront/private insurance, eliminating many of the hassles of modern medical practice.

 

[shivalrous]

Wow Lemont, is there seriously a big market in ostrich breeding? Might be my next venture....

 

[synapse lapse]

This guys an idiot (Doggie). Try this fact, the average family practice salary is $170,283 while the average dumtist is only $135,750 (NY city monster.com). Thats a difference of 34533, over 20 years that's 690,660 more a physician makes, take into acount a 3 year residency of about 40,000 per year while a dumtist makes an average 135,750, the dumtist only nets 287,250 more over the three years, minus that from the 690,660 is 403,410 more dollars the physician will make over an average twenty years not taking into consideration inflation. In addition, medicine has opportunities past the clinical relm such as pharmaceuticals and more administrative positions such as Deans and Chairs of Departments at medical schools that you can slap on another 200,000 dollars per year with ease.

Here's some acurate information. Physicians hold the first top SEVEN! highest mean anual wages in the US and Dentist are number ten. Family practitioners are ranked at number six. Department of Laborhttp://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2004/nov/wk3/art01.htm

Yes, but it neglects to include whether or not they included the oral surgeons in the surgeon category or dentistry category, not to mention that we know oral surgeons and orthodontists make significantly more on average than most doctors with the exception of a few specialties (see ADA link). Back to the original post, sure doctors make a lot, but they sacrifice more than anyone else to make it. They lose years of income, have interest accrue on an average of $130k debt for years, and deal with a lot of $hitty patients/illnesses and beuraucracy that others don't have to deal with. Break it down by hour your making ~$10 an hour as a resident (assume $40k year, 49 weeks year, 80 hour weeks, this is an understatment). Now break down what you can make as a surgeon, it comes out to $77 an hour (assume 50 weeks year, $250k avg salary, 65 hour avg weeks). Wow, doesn't look like so much now does it. Sure, it is higher than the averages for other professions, but when you take into account the educational training, the issues with compensation, dealing with all the crappy stuff, and all the personal and familial sacrifice, it's really not that much. Not to mention that if you are a surgeon, you would really think saving someone from a debilitating disease or even death would be worth more than $77 an hour. Where does all the extra money go? Well, to the people that are allowed to be in medicine for the money, of course, hospitals, insurance companies, investors, CEO's.

 

[bulletproof]

I think you guys/girls are missing the point, I think you should choose a career in medicine only if you would not be happier doing something else. Shadowing some doc or spending a little time with a surgeon does not really give you an idea of what the true costs are.

1. Ignorance is bliss, learning the 50,000 ways you can die and learning that modern medicine can only cure a couple of diseases like infection, and early cancer if you cut it out (to name a couple). For the rest of them it is often a band aide fix, just look at psychiatry.

2. You work like a dog for many years, giving up weekends etc. Wait until some of you haven't slept in 36 hours and you still have to put together a presentation for your chief. And for all of you thinking you can just get the cush ENT, Derm, Rad, Gas residencies it is far easier said than done. You still have to bust your ass especially ENT and Gas, and the 80 hour work week ends when you leave residency or become a fellow, at the hospital I am at many of the attendings are putting in more time than the residents.

3. The patient population you deal mainly with is not far removed from what the police officer, fire department deal with on a regular basis, especially while you are training. You have to set aside any of your own morals while you are treating some of these patients, especially the likes of child molesters just as an example.

4. The reason most of your friends become physicians and you tend to lose contact with your old friends is because others just don't relate to the world you now live in. Only other docs know the crap you have to put up with on a daily basis.

These are some of the drawbacks of the field of medicine. I think physicians need to earn at least what they are making know just to kind of make up for the 8-12yrs of sacrifice it took to get where they are at. I love what I do, and do not regret my decision, but it would be naive to not recognize what the costs of that are.

Skialta

I find that alot of times when people say "don't go into it for the money, you'll be sorry" they are referring to the sentiment expressed above. Yes, as a general rule physicians fare out quite nicely. They work their gluteals of to get there, sometimes disillusioned with the whole experience , and their career choice, only to find that there is little time left over to enjoy the income on a week to week basis. You make good money, but you better enjoy making it, because you will end up spending more time invested in making in, or actually making it, than you will spending it esp. in the likes of surgery, IM etc.

 

[LAZYGUY]

Yes, but it neglects to include whether or not they included the oral surgeons in the surgeon category or dentistry category, not to mention that we know oral surgeons and orthodontists make significantly more on average than most doctors with the exception of a few specialties (see ADA link). Back to the original post, sure doctors make a lot, but they sacrifice more than anyone else to make it. They lose years of income, have interest accrue on an average of $130k debt for years, and deal with a lot of $hitty patients/illnesses and beuraucracy that others don't have to deal with. Break it down by hour your making ~$10 an hour as a resident (assume $40k year, 49 weeks year, 80 hour weeks, this is an understatment). Now break down what you can make as a surgeon, it comes out to $77 an hour (assume 50 weeks year, $250k avg salary, 65 hour avg weeks). Wow, doesn't look like so much now does it. Sure, it is higher than the averages for other professions, but when you take into account the educational training, the issues with compensation, dealing with all the crappy stuff, and all the personal and familial sacrifice, it's really not that much. Not to mention that if you are a surgeon, you would really think saving someone from a debilitating disease or even death would be worth more than $77 an hour. Where does all the extra money go? Well, to the people that are allowed to be in medicine for the money, of course, hospitals, insurance companies, investors, CEO's.

Very true. Most of the doc's I know are not rich because of their MD but because of their business skills. A family doc can take home half a million if he opens his own clinic and has 2 PA's under him...business skills is the name of the game. You NEVER accumulate money by working for others. Dentistry is a good opportunity if you are business savy, but UNLIKE medicine you ARE NOT guaranteed anything. You don't get out of dental school making a set amount, its up in the air, just like any other business- that has no doctoral degree under them. That's the difference. The biggest reason for job disatisfaction I've seen is salary, in both fields.

 

[ms1finally]

Law is not exactly a cash cow. There are plenty of lawyers barely scraping by. Some are on salaries of just over 30K per year. I would say a large chunk of lawyers make 50-60K a year, even if they're from a very good school. Unless they work their ass off in a high powered firm, lawyers will likely not break 100K starting out, or for a good while afterwards. The highly paid lawyers that went straight to high powered firms are comparable to the high achieving doctors that go into ortho or plastics. They both will get paid well, maybe with some edge to the lawyers. But for the mortals in both fields, the grass is definitely greener on the medicine side, where even a bottom of the barrel doctor with piss poor grades from a crappy school and a crappy residency can still make 80k/yr. Try that in law.

Investment bankers work like crazy to make the money they do, and come on, their job sucks. They have no purpose or meaning in their job other than to make money. At least with medicine, even if you make under 100K a year, you still have the satisfaction of helping people. I know people make light of that, but assuming you went into medicine at least partly because you are interested in the field, how cool is it to get paid (and well) for something so rewarding personally?

Lawyers on 30K a year? Where? What state?

1) My dad graduated from law school in 1981 and started at 40K.
2) If you are talking about the South or Midwest, 30K a year is comparable to 60K a year or so in Boston/NYC/Washington DC. With that said, I don't know any third year law students (and I know a ton) who are looking at 30K next year. In fact, most of them made 20K or so THIS PAST SUMMER!

 

[davvid2700]

If you are going to live somewhere desirable depending on your specialty you will not make that much money.. 300,000 dollars is alot of money. yes. and i can assure you that no obgyn is going to start with that kind of salary in anyplace desirable.. more like 150,000.. can you imagine? working your ass off for so many years and someone offers you this kind of salary. ANd when they offer you that 300,000 dollars in smallville usa you will be on call every night.. getting calls etc.. going in for c sections.. There is NO easy money in medicine.. NONE.. if you are going to make the money you are going to work, risk alot, give up a lot of yourself.. The point I am trying to drive home is there are many, many, many variables starting in practice.. For example,, there are many places where you cannot get priveleges. You can try but there are many other doctors in your specialty there t hat will black ball you and prevent you from getting priveleges or if you wanna work t here you can work for them for 140, 000 a year and take their calls etc.. its really a disgusting situation.. If your fellow physician arent try to screw you.. the HMOs will try to screw you for a buck.. I blame the people who came before me who werent business minded. They felt that .. you cant talk about money in medicine.. it is an altruistic profession.. Yeah i understand that.. but its Business.. and the insuance companies understand this and are screwing the physicians.. its only getting worse as i see it

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

When I was 29 I was making roughly $170,000+ as a financial advisor with Poli Sci degree....all sales. In fact this was from my current client base at the time. My clients were all sitting in fee based products that paid me for hanging my hat on the wall when I got in th office. So long as my clients were happy the fees just came rolling in. It was so easy that I became disgusted with the business and decided to go the pre-med route which is where I am today. No I didn't hit $300,000 at 29 but I could have if that were the only satisfaction.

Consider the financial advisor fee based business. Simply a numbers game.

$50,000,000 in asset management among 166 client, $300,000 per client.
A fee of 1.5% equals $750,000 in gross fees and 45% net to the advisor or $337,000. I knew of other advisors who amassed a client base of that size by 30 with ease.

check out www.registeredrep.com or www.onwallstreet.com

I couldn't agree with you more. I worked as an financial advisor for American Express. I had a BA in psychology and 4+ years of retail banking experience before starting. Lets just say I was doing quite well financially before deciding to quit my job and pursue medicine.

 

[Philo Beddo]

E.. if you are going to make the money you are going to work, risk alot, give up a lot of yourself..

Whatever, have you looked into anesthesia, derm or opthamology. You can start at 300K + and work less than 45 hrs/week. Radiologists are in demand too.

Philo

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