Why in the world do people say dont go into medicine for the $$$???

[bulletproof]

Great discussions. I want to emphasize that one must love the job, or the money really becomes a burden preventing people to be happy. The more money involved, the more trapped a person becomes.

Sure, you are smart and save a large portion of youre money, but if you made that 400k a year you would be saving even more, and counting for compund interest at an avg rate of 10%, you would have millions more by retirement age if you saved at the same rate you do now at a 400k a year salary. QUOTE]

True, I can accumulate wealth quickly with a higher income. However, seeing patients, doing surgery, and working more to make $400K/year is living my life in the rat race. The real key to wealth is passive income. At this point, I rather focus on the three companies I own because the payout will far exceed the numbers discussed here. Time will tell, but I am not afraid of failure either. I'll still have my day job, and I'll learn not what to do for my next company.



Yes and no. In the Navy I am allowed to have my own businesses as long as I maintain my duties as an officer. This is why I've assembled teams that I trust, and I can guide the teams while on active duty. Also, my current research is being done at a university, and my business partners can do the research while I act as a 'consultant'. Stocks are nice here too, and the Navy can't prevent me from being a stock holder and consultant on my off-duty hours. Although the Navy may receive the majority of patents, inventors still receive royalties: http://www.nrl.navy.mil/content.php?P=TECHTRANSFER

"The license authorizes the licensee to manufacture and market the product while allowing government inventors and the laboratories where they work to share the royalties generated by commercial licensing of their inventions."

I qualify for a 'government inventor' I believe. Regardless, even if they take my research ideas, I still have other businesses.



Yes and no. Like any managed care organization, there are some treatments I can't do. However, unlike the real world, ALL my patients receive care. If they come into my office, then I will treat. In the real world, you'll be punting the non-paying patients to the University. I'd rather work as a physician to heal my patients rather than playing triage for my pocket book.



I never said $110K is competitive, but it's enough for me to work as a physician in the Navy and teaching residents. I said my wife and I decided that $60K/year is what we need to have a home, food, and the basics. Everything else is gravy. If you live with the mind set of abundance, then you'll achieve a sense of 'wealth'. Wealth is relative. Teachers are wealthier than the grocery clerk. My salary looks great to 90% of the US. I adjust my thinking to that of a teacher making a salary of $40K/year, then man... $100K/year is great. While $400K/year or even $1/million may seem to be a lot of money, for some it is not enough.

When Pippen was playing basketball in Portland. He was looking up at the bleachers admiring and wishing he was the billionaire watching him. For Pippen, he didn't have enough money. How sad that a multi-million dollar athlete lives in the mind set of poverty and yearning for more. It's far easier to have the mind set of simplicity and feel Blessed to make $110K/year.

Business is really a hobby for me. It's actually a lot of fun. In medical school it was a blast moving $500K/year in inventory via eBay and my e-commerce store. What I really enjoy, however, is working with my teams, and planning to give money back to academic programs. Personally, I want to fund medical missions and give scholarships to students. This will provide much more satisfaction than just watching money accumulate in my bank account.

I just wanted to say, that after reading your impressive profile, and listening to you coherently, and calmly state your case, I am not in the slightest bit of doubt as to your future success. You are indeed as Robert Frost Surmised "taking the road less travelled". But then, as he noted "it has made all the difference". I think you are to be commended for your steadfastness in pursuance of your states goals, and I am inspired by the fact that at a time when many others would jump straight into the retina/glaucoma field, you chose something that truly interested you. In my experience, individuals such as yourself always end up in the green. Best of luck to you, and I look forward to reading about your future success.

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[el_chavo]

I have long term plans, politically, professionally, and personally. In my journey, I continue to find others with similar dreams and goals. Together, we will make changes and hopefully make things better.

I just want to echo what others have said in that I completely agree with what Andrew Doan is saying. I've looked into the profile and the ideas and they absolutely click with what I hope to accomplish as well.
So, Dr. Doan, I feel I may be one with similar dreams and goals, What can I do as a medical student to work together and find other like minded individuals? What kind of things can I do to continue to prepare?

 

[bananachip]

I did not once tell Dr. Doan how to live his life, what I did was challeneg some of the points he made in the interest of attainting truth. People may choose to live/practice how they want. It is funny that you accuse me of telling someone how to live and then immediately move on to tell people not to go into medicine for money, and why/how they should live their lives. In addition, there is nothing unprofessional about wanting to get paid to do work, as a matter of fact this is the esseence of capitalism. If you don't support such an econimic system you can either lobby to change it or move to a socialistic country. And what does it mean that you will hate your life going into medicine for money? If you are saying that you will be disapointed if money is your only motivation, I will agree with you, but if you are saying that you will be disapointed if money is a motivation, I disagree. And, in response to my "true colors being pale", how can you make such a determination? You have neither met me, nor engaged in enough discusison to guage my philosophical belief system or my arguments for it. And who said I don't have respect for physicians? I am obviously on my way to becoming one, so I must respect the profession; but guess what, physicians aren't special, they just do a job. Sure it's an important one, but it is still just a job, and it is one that after all the hard work and crap yopu have to go through in the business of medicine you deserve to be well compensated for, and I would be happy to argue this anytime

ok, after reading that post that you thoughfully wrote, i can surmise:

1: you want to make money
2: being a doctor is a "job" to you.
3: and you also like "other" stuff about being a doctor.

I know how capitalism works. I want the money too, or I would not be able to do this. HOWEVER, you are lame. We both know you only want to be a doctor to brag about it and make money. You're not some unique individual...lots of people in lots of med schools are just like you.

But, people like you dont have the heart. Thats it. Will it make a difference in your work? Of course it does. No one does a good job when their primary motivation is money. Especially when they their trade is healing and empathy.

Its really a shame that after starting med school you still feel that it is simply a job. Either you are hardheaded, or your school is not doing a good job of integrating you into the field. This "job" of your will be your life's work. You will give the next 4 years of you life to it, and 80 hours a week for the following next 4-7 years.

After you complete your training, you will only make a decent living if you stay in the field of medicine. Therefore, you will stay, working 60 hours a week and being on call, for the next 30 years or so. You will mark the most influential moments of many people's lives, and you will ironically be unable to do the same with your own, as you will be too laden with responsibility to make many of the moments of your own life. You will miss vacations, birthdays, anniversaries, holidays, and even funerals of those you love because of this "job".

You are an idiot, good sir. Unless you plan on life after 65 as counting, you're pretty much going to devote 75% of your waking hours to this "job".

To me, that is the definition of life. This is your life's work. Was 400k a year, promised to be given after a decade of hard work, worth your vast majority of your life?

You will regret your life. Money is IMPORTANT, but in this field, because of the responsibilities and commitments, it should only be a factor that makes it acceptable to choose this, not the primary motivation.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

So, Dr. Doan, I feel I may be one with similar dreams and goals, What can I do as a medical student to work together and find other like minded individuals? What kind of things can I do to continue to prepare?

Try starting here on SDN and with your colleagues that you go to school with.

I have found SDN to have an incredible collection of talented individuals. Over the years, I've meet many SDN members who interviewed at Iowa's ophthalmology program. I was on the selection committee last year and was pleased to see the quality and talent that peruse this site. SDN serves up ~45 million page views a month. Amongst this forum, there are future leaders in medicine and government.

Another resource is LinkedIN (www.linkedin.com) where you can connect with entrepreneurs, executives, and individuals with similar business goals. LinkedIN was introduced to me by a SDN medical student. I ate lunch with him, and learned so much about Internet networking. His father is the lawyer, Rod Martin, who organized the Vanguard PAC and mediated the $2 billion dollar merger of PayPal.com and eBay.com. Rod Martin has used LinkedIN, similar to Howard Dean, to raise millions of dollars for their political missions. After I learned about LinkedIN, I joined in April my network of people grew. I am now connected with other CEOs and businesses in the publishing industry around the world. Did you know that programming and copy editing in India costs 50% less than in the US? If I look hard enough, then I will probably find companies in South East Asia that provides human resources cheaper. The Internet is allowing people, who would have unlikely interacted in the physical world, to 'meet', discuss, and create. We're using www.skype.com to communicate around the world for free. My board meetings are conducted via Powerpoint slides uploaded to servers and conference calls. I also use video phone technology to meet with people thousands of miles away. BTW, Skype announced a $2.1 Billion acquisition by eBay this last week. eBay now has a huge footing in e-commerce, financial services via Paypal, and now telecommunications through the Internet via VoIP.

As a medical student, you need to determine what really makes you enjoy life. For me, it's my faith in God and serving others, my family, and cutting edge technology. I then try to meld my interests with my professional training and goals. Try to acquire new skills and experiences. I learned web design as a medical student, and now I'm running my own servers and creating websites without the need of expensive IT support. I started www.eyerounds.org as a first year resident and secured $20,000 in grant support for this project. Because the IT was done by me, we purchased digital cameras (http://webeye.ophth.uiowa.edu/eyeforum/photography.htm) and provided books for all the residents at Iowa. Currently, we're paying residents a $100 stipend for each case they submit. After 300 more cases, Iowa will have an awesome FREE ophthalmology textbook available to everyone. This website is helping Iowa because when you search a term like: "genetic testing for eye disease" - http://www.google.com/search?source...-07,GGLD:en&q=genetic+testing+for+eye+disease,
Iowa Ophthalmology is on the first page of Google out of 7,650,000 pages.

During medical school, I learned a lot about e-commerce. We live in a Global Economy where companies like eBay, PayPal, Amazon, Google, and Skype are allowing the 6.5 billion people in the world to learn, communicate, and conduct business with each other. As a medical student, I was shipping digital cameras to Brazil, Australia, and England.

When you use your skills that provide immense enjoyment, you may be working 20 hours straight but time flies because it's fun. After you start making money, if you can say "wow... they pay me to do this???", then you'll be certain that you have found your dream.

My interests currently are in medical publishing, education, and research. However, because I enjoy the Internet and business, I've applied my Internet and business experience to each of the above interests. If you have any interest in producing materials for educational benefit, e.g., USMLE review, SAT review, MCAT review, or if you know something that may benefit other medical professionals, then send me an e-mail [email protected]. I'll hook you up and get you writing. For instance, the power of the Internet and SDN is making this happen in the ophthalmology forum: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=218763

This is an example of a few residents who took the initiative to do something creative to help their colleagues. These types of creativity, even if it doesn't generate much income, open MANY doors. Thus, if you can say that you were an editor of a book and lead a team of authors, then the residency director may not care about your mediocre USMLE score when you apply for a competitive residency. For example, although I had papers, research, and other academic achievements, I looked the same as the other top applicants when I applied in ophthalmology. However, the one thing that set me apart was my e-commerce and eBay business. Although I listed "managing my Internet business with my wife" under hobbies, this was the number one thing that raised eye brows during my interview cycle. I was able to teach my interviewers something they had very little knowledge.

Therefore, this is why I recommend focusing on the things you love- the things in life that make you want jump out of bed and get going. Remember when you were a kid and so excited to do something that as soon as you woke, you'd jump out of bed to wake up your parents? This is how I feel when I work on MedRounds and advise students on SDN. I've been up since 3 AM working on a new cataract surgery textbook that a former faculty and now business partner wrote. I am trying to get it formated for the web before the American Academy of Ophthalmology meeting where Dr. Oetting teaches a cataract surgery course and announces the launch of MedRounds. There's still much more to do, but you can view it here: http://www.medrounds.org/cataract-surgery-greenhorns/2005/09/title-page.html

This was a long answer to your question. I just want you to realize that everyone has a dream. You should pursue your dream, but be ready for many negative individuals who will try to stop you. Try to find other like individuals with similar passions, and together you'll accomplish great things. Good luck!

 

[Ross434]

Sorry, I thought that when you wrote:



it was clear that you were claiming your salary was competitive. And actually,wealth is not a state of mind, but is precisely a quantitative measurement of net worth. So, while you may say you feel wealthy or have a reasonable salary of life with savings that can support this quality of life after retirement and excellent benefits from the government, you can't really claim that you will be truly wealthy on your salary. In reference to al your patients recieving care, again, this is true, but may not matter to some physicians in private practice who prefer to refer patients who can't pay to the universities/county hospitals. It all depends on the preferance of your practice/ compensation system. I agree with the resy of what you sad, and business is obviously the real way to build wealth. You won't get wealthy having that 300k a year if you spend it all and dont invest, and I agree that most people could accumulate plenty of wealth if they shared your acumen/interest in saving for the future/investments.

Pink, STFU, please

 

[bananachip]

The pre-meds I know who say they want to get into medicine to 'help people' and seem to really mean it, are generally the most ignorant when it comes to what medical school and the practice of medicine really involve. The 'greedy' ones have generally done their homework and understand the realities of medical school and residency and the economic future of the field (and even various specialties). Just my two cents...

Do I want to help people? Yes. Will I act unprofessionally to try and earn more money? No. Do I expect to be well compensated for being called into the hospital in the middle of the night/sleeping at the hospital 1x or 2x a week when I am in my 40s and 50s? Yes. Do I expect to be well compensated for risking all of my assets on a daily basis simply by performing my job ("helping people"). Yes!

It's okay to be greedy. Who do you think suffers when a physicians salary drops from 300k to 100k? His or her patients. How does someone who makes 700k/year and is very comfortable feel about providing free care to indigent patients? Now how do they feel being asked to provide that care when they are making 150k/year? Go ask a heart surgeon. If you really want patient care to improve the best way is to raise physician pay to give them some breathing room. It's clear that no one is going to do that for me, so I am going to try and do it myself.

you're pretty dense. I didnt say money was unimportant. Do you think you discovered capitalism? Are you the only one that knows that better things cost more money? Wow, thanks for shedding the light!

I said that you need to make money to make this field acceptable. You just want to berate your point that money is important. We all know this. Your point is just useless capitalistic drivel. We all know what you are saying. Blah blah blah. No one cares what you think, because everyone on the street knows what you think.

"I am smart, i work hard, i should get more money". Blah blah blah. Wow, never thought of that. I can't understand. So, you mean that doctors work hard and are smart? Thats why we deserve to get more money then a nurse? Thanks.

the greedy ones are the ones that do as little as possible to make as much as possible. Greed = MD! I guess that is you. Great. How nice of you to admit that openly. What an accomplishment! What a man you are!

Women must swoon as you deftly step into the library, knowing in a few decades you will just as confidently slip into a sleek convertible on the way back to the hospital. Middle age be damned, you ARE THE MAN!

But if that is your primary motivation, being a doctor is a poor choice. I mentioned why in the preceeding post.

 

[synapse lapse]

ok, after reading that post that you thoughfully wrote, i can surmise:

1: you want to make money
2: being a doctor is a "job" to you.
3: and you also like "other" stuff about being a doctor.

I know how capitalism works. I want the money too, or I would not be able to do this. HOWEVER, you are lame. We both know you only want to be a doctor to brag about it and make money. You're not some unique individual...lots of people in lots of med schools are just like you.

But, people like you dont have the heart. Thats it. Will it make a difference in your work? Of course it does. No one does a good job when their primary motivation is money. Especially when they their trade is healing and empathy.

Its really a shame that after starting med school you still feel that it is simply a job. Either you are hardheaded, or your school is not doing a good job of integrating you into the field. This "job" of your will be your life's work. You will give the next 4 years of you life to it, and 80 hours a week for the following next 4-7 years.

After you complete your training, you will only make a decent living if you stay in the field of medicine. Therefore, you will stay, working 60 hours a week and being on call, for the next 30 years or so. You will mark the most influential moments of many people's lives, and you will ironically be unable to do the same with your own, as you will be too laden with responsibility to make many of the moments of your own life. You will miss vacations, birthdays, anniversaries, holidays, and even funerals of those you love because of this "job".

You are an idiot, good sir. Unless you plan on life after 65 as counting, you're pretty much going to devote 75% of your waking hours to this "job".

To me, that is the definition of life. This is your life's work. Was 400k a year, promised to be given after a decade of hard work, worth your vast majority of your life?

You will regret your life. Money is IMPORTANT, but in this field, because of the responsibilities and commitments, it should only be a factor that makes it acceptable to choose this, not the primary motivation.

Yes, you truly know me. I am a heartles, selfish, greedy person whose only interest is to extortion as much money as possible out of my suffering patients It is obvious that you are not capable of holding an open debate in a rational manner without becoming emotional to the point that you are being driven insane. Luckily, Dr. Doan is capable of such a discussion, which is the whole reason we haven't resorted to putting down eachother or anyones choice of lifestyle. If you were capable of rational argument you would see that nowhere did I lead one to believe that money was my only motivation, that I didn't love medicine, that I wouldn't care for my patients, or that I wanted to be a doctor to brag about it and make money Oh, but I am an idiot right, so I don't know what I'm talking about noone here claimed to have invented capitalism, btw. You seem to be completely against the idea that medicine is a business and that we live in such a society. I have in no way bashed your view, but I also won't let anyone come here making claims that they don't defend by argument. You want to argue for healthcare as a right and debate the evils of capitalisim I welcome that, but you want to get on here and spout your emotional drivel without actually saying anything of substance that I will no lnoger respond. Oh, and may I ask where you are in your training? Why is it a shame that after starting med school I still see it as a job? IT IS A JOB! wow, what a concept, we are being paid to provide a service! Sure, it is a service that means everything to a person, and it is a very emotional ordeal that we are sharing with them, and yes we are a big part of a persons life, but so is a lawyer in a legal case, or a business owner who creates jobs for a community, and noone gets on them about it. And how can you know what my future career is like? As a matter of fact, I have not once said that I was interested in maximizing profit or that my primary motivation was money. What I did do was argue for a position from this viewpoint, which you infered as my own and attacked me. This is not to mention that all you do is argue based on preconcieved notions that we want benzes and hoes (which may or may not be what I or anyone else actually wants), and if you were intelligent enough to actually ask us to clarify a position then you could succesfully argue yours. I don't know where you go to school, but its a shame that you were never taught to debate in a rational and cogent manner

 

[synapse lapse]

Pink, STFU, please

Oh, I'm sorry Ross, I didn't know that we weren't allowed to argue on an internet forum. Why don't you contribute to the discussion

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

I think we need to be a little more respectful on this forum. Dr.Doan has done more as a student/resident than most people do in a lifetime. I've been a member of SDN for several years and I've always enjoyed reading his posts, be it about medicine, ophthalmology, or life in general. They are always informative. Never judgemental. He is a pioneer in every sense of the word. We can learn alot from him, so let's shut our mouths and listen for once.

 

[bananachip]

Oh i get it Pink. A rational discussion means you say your points, but never read my posts.

I know medicine is a business. But it's a stupid way to make money. I think i stated that mroe than a few times.

Talk to some physicians about the money and "sweet job" aspect. Hear what they have to say.

BTW, who are you kidding? You're in it for money. you can play devil's advocate, but you know what you are, and i do too. You're not fooling anyone. This is not a trial...i dont need rock solid evidence. Your assertively stated opinions are enough for me. Someone who says black people should live in a seperate communty = racist in the "court" of opinion. Someone who finds medicine to be a "job" and a great way to make money is the worst kind of physician.

you're a swine and you know it. Its a shame that people like you get to bask in the halo that comes with the prestige of being a doctor while you have no real compassion or empathy for anyone except yourself and possibly your family.

You wear a skin of empathy, but your whole being is nothing more than the tar of rotted selfishness. You can argue with me, but the mirror is only going to reflect what you are.

I dont need to argue with you. You have your own conscience, it will eat away on its own time. You know what you are, you know what you're doing, and you know what you're trying to do. And the latter is not working.

 

[curious1]

Oh i get it Pink. A rational discussion means you say your points, but never read my posts.

I know medicine is a business. But it's a stupid way to make money. I think i stated that mroe than a few times.

Talk to some physicians about the money and "sweet job" aspect. Hear what they have to say.

BTW, who are you kidding? You're in it for money. you can play devil's advocate, but you know what you are, and i do too. You're not fooling anyone. This is not a trial...i dont need rock solid evidence. Your assertively stated opinions are enough for me. Someone who says black people should live in a seperate communty = racist in the "court" of opinion. Someone who finds medicine to be a "job" and a great way to make money is the worst kind of physician.

you're a swine and you know it. Its a shame that people like you get to bask in the halo that comes with the prestige of being a doctor while you have no real compassion or empathy for anyone except yourself and possibly your family.

You wear a skin of empathy, but your whole being is nothing more than the tar of rotted selfishness. You can argue with me, but the mirror is only going to reflect what you are.

I dont need to argue with you. You have your own conscience, it will eat away on its own time. You know what you are, you know what you're doing, and you know what you're trying to do. And the latter is not working.

Out in the real world, there is a lot less prestige attached to being a physician than there used to be. Most people will just look at you as someone with lots of discretionary money to spend and no fiscal knowledge or discipline (aka a sucker). I would need more than one set of hands to count out how many physicians I personally know who have been scammed by other members of their community, and unfortunately this is what the physician stereotype has become (moderately sized stable income, no fiscal discipline, poor investment knowledge, easy to take advantage of because they are too busy to notice).

 

[bananachip]

Out in the real world, there is a lot less prestige attached to being a physician than there used to be. Most people will just look at you as someone with lots of discretionary money to spend and no fiscal knowledge or discipline (aka a sucker). I would need more than one set of hands to count out how many physicians I personally know who have been scammed by other members of their community, and unfortunately this is what the physician stereotype has become (moderately sized stable income, no fiscal discipline, poor investment knowledge, easy to take advantage of because they are too busy to notice).

hmmm, most lack of respect comes from the form of jealousy. people love to use doctors as examples of poor business acumen or bad ethics because the actual stereotype is of a wholesome, intelligent, well off person.

I think you'll find that nurses, techs, PA, and NP's will talk down doctors, but they'd give anything to actually be one. Everyone will tell you how bad it is to be a doctor...only because they cannot be one.

Maybe in your rural community, the doctors there have suffered some kind of indignity, but pretty much everywhere doctors are respected, appreciated, and envied by those who envy.

But sure, you can tell yourself that being a doctor is nothing more than someone who is a sucker. And the moderately high income, which you are aware is around 300k starting, is much higher than any other field. Doctors at the pinnacle of their private practice career can and do make around the 1 mill mark. If you're looking at celebrities and CEO's of top companies, yes, doctors earn a moderate income. But compared to everyone else, doctors are rich. If you think 300k doesnt go far, try seeing how far 120k goes.

Doctors make good money. But if you're only after money, you will be disappointed. I see from all your previous posts you are only after money. Congrats! You chose a good field to earn money, but a poor field for yourself. Your previous inquiries about medicare disbursements for derm and plastic surgery residencies in boston tell me you're just doing this for the money and the prestige. Nice play on the whole devil's advocate thing...you know you part your goofy hair in the mirror every morning thinking "i look like a doctor more and more every day!".

You discontent will only grow, regardless of what size your bank account will go.

Praps burning the money will help warm your frigid and lonely heart? Only time can tell. Wouldnt it be funny if you didnt get your coveted residency? I can see you complaining through 5 years of general surgery, and 3 years of fellowship in oklahoma for plastics...all just to do boob jobs!

You're super cool. By the time you're done training, you'll probably need some reconstruction yourself. Better start planning how you are gonna spend all that future money now.

 

[curious1]

hmmm, most lack of respect comes from the form of jealousy. people love to use doctors as examples of poor business acumen or bad ethics because the actual stereotype is of a wholesome, intelligent, well off person.

I think you'll find that nurses, techs, PA, and NP's will talk down doctors, but they'd give anything to actually be one. Everyone will tell you how bad it is to be a doctor...only because they cannot be one.

Maybe in your rural community, the doctors there have suffered some kind of indignity, but pretty much everywhere doctors are respected, appreciated, and envied by those who envy.

But sure, you can tell yourself that being a doctor is nothing more than someone who is a sucker. And the moderately high income, which you are aware is around 300k starting, is much higher than any other field. Doctors at the pinnacle of their private practice career can and do make around the 1 mill mark. If you're looking at celebrities and CEO's of top companies, yes, doctors earn a moderate income. But compared to everyone else, doctors are rich. If you think 300k doesnt go far, try seeing how far 120k goes.

Doctors make good money. But if you're only after money, you will be disappointed. I see from all your previous posts you are only after money. Congrats! You chose a good field to earn money, but a poor field for yourself. Your previous inquiries about medicare disbursements for derm and plastic surgery residencies in boston tell me you're just doing this for the money and the prestige. Nice play on the whole devil's advocate thing...you know you part your goofy hair in the mirror every morning thinking "i look like a doctor more and more every day!".

You discontent will only grow, regardless of what size your bank account will go.

Praps burning the money will help warm your frigid and lonely heart? Only time can tell. Wouldnt it be funny if you didnt get your coveted residency? I can see you complaining through 5 years of general surgery, and 3 years of fellowship in oklahoma for plastics...all just to do boob jobs!

You're super cool. By the time you're done training, you'll probably need some reconstruction yourself. Better start planning how you are gonna spend all that future money now.

Banana I find your posts really amusing. I assume you are just out to argue for the sake of arguing. You should have a radio talk show. I have run out of time but if somebody can pick up where I left off then I will check in later.

 

[bananachip]

yeah i have to study too. i guess this is where our sdn experience will end for a couple months.

goodluck

 

[YouDontKnowJack]

i'm in it for the moneh. i won't lie.

I'm tired of driving my 1984 Nissan. You have no idea what pain and suffering I go through.

 

[WhoisJohnGalt]

I can see you complaining through 5 years of general surgery, and 3 years of fellowship in oklahoma for plastics...all just to do boob jobs!

*hands on hips* And what is so bad about a fellowship in Oklahoma?

 

[synapse lapse]

Oh i get it Pink. A rational discussion means you say your points, but never read my posts.

I know medicine is a business. But it's a stupid way to make money. I think i stated that mroe than a few times.

Talk to some physicians about the money and "sweet job" aspect. Hear what they have to say.

BTW, who are you kidding? You're in it for money. you can play devil's advocate, but you know what you are, and i do too. You're not fooling anyone. This is not a trial...i dont need rock solid evidence. Your assertively stated opinions are enough for me. Someone who says black people should live in a seperate communty = racist in the "court" of opinion. Someone who finds medicine to be a "job" and a great way to make money is the worst kind of physician.

you're a swine and you know it. Its a shame that people like you get to bask in the halo that comes with the prestige of being a doctor while you have no real compassion or empathy for anyone except yourself and possibly your family.

You wear a skin of empathy, but your whole being is nothing more than the tar of rotted selfishness. You can argue with me, but the mirror is only going to reflect what you are.

I dont need to argue with you. You have your own conscience, it will eat away on its own time. You know what you are, you know what you're doing, and you know what you're trying to do. And the latter is not working.

HAHAHAHA I AM SATAN I only hope that my burning my hoards of money can warm my cold heart, or that "basking in the glow of being a physicians" while I masturbate pleases me Why don't you share some information on yourself, like where you go to/went school and where you went to undergrad, if you are even in medical school. I welcome the dabate, and make no atempt to conceal my identity. Do you act this way in person? Well, I do, and I can tell you that you are so far off on your craptastic emotional rant that you couldn't even see the way I am if you wanted to. Who cares, I don't give 2 $****s what you think, but I do expect reasonable debates. Oh, and I did read your posts and directly responded to them, unlike you who choses to attack me instead of counter my points. I think it makes you feel good to feel that you have the moral high ground; a sort of masturbation for your ego go live your life and I'll live mine, and that's whats so great about living in a free country with this amazing thing called social mobility, where idiotic self rightous people don't get to decide who does what job, but where all men are equal Oh, and suck it, hows that for empathy, does it taste good

 

[Elysium]

You people are all so f-ing sad I want to cry. Do you really think you're all going to be making $300,000? In primary care? HAHHAHAHA. I mean, it's one thing if you're on the ball enough to do one of the ROAD specialites (which, very, very, few people are) but most folks end up doing IM, peds, FP, or OB. Which is exactly the kind of docs we're going to need since the boomers are getting old as hell and are going to need IM docs, not plastics. Wanna know what an IM doc makes in Texas after 30 years in practice (solo practice, cash only practice) 200,000. Wanna know what he pays to the govt each year so Bush can blow up Iraq and totally f-up the hurricane situation? Around 60,000. I'm gonna tell ya that it don't amount to much. How do I know? BECAUSE I LIVED IT. My dad's a very successful doc, and we've always been comfortably middle class, but we've sure as hell never been rich. No private schools. No European vacations. My dad never gets to take off because he can't afford to. And he's 60! He still can't take a goddamned vacation! So, folks, you gotta get real. And a bunch of first year dipsh1ts blathering on about how medicine is this and that is so banal. Just wait until you go to the hospital at 3:45am 6 days a week. All this mental masturbation is going to go out the window.

Doan-y is a brilliant dude and he has his head screwed on straight. He's got lots of irons in the fire, which is the name of the game in medicine and in life. Your life shouldn't be all one thing or another. Make time for your family, your friends, reading for pleasure, something besides this holy grail bullsh1t quest to make yourself feel better. I'm not saying there's not money to be made in medicine. There is. But it takes HARD WORK and SAVVY. You don't land that cards fellowship because you happen to have an MD after your name. You don't match ortho or optho because of how cute you come across in interviews. You have to have your sh2t together. And by the looks of things, you people don't stand a chance.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

You people are all so f-ing sad I want to cry. Do you really think you're all going to be making $300,000? In primary care? HAHHAHAHA. I mean, it's one thing if you're on the ball enough to do one of the ROAD specialites (which, very, very, few people are) but most folks end up doing IM, peds, FP, or OB. Which is exactly the kind of docs we're going to need since the boomers are getting old as hell and are going to need IM docs, not plastics. Wanna know what an IM doc makes in Texas after 30 years in practice (solo practice, cash only practice) 200,000. Wanna know what he pays to the govt each year so Bush can blow up Iraq and totally f-up the hurricane situation? Around 60,000. I'm gonna tell ya that it don't amount to much. How do I know? BECAUSE I LIVED IT. My dad's a very successful doc, and we've always been comfortably middle class, but we've sure as hell never been rich. No private schools. No European vacations. My dad never gets to take off because he can't afford to. And he's 60! He still can't take a goddamned vacation! So, folks, you gotta get real. And a bunch of first year dipsh1ts blathering on about how medicine is this and that is so banal. Just wait until you go to the hospital at 3:45am 6 days a week. All this mental masturbation is going to go out the window.

Doan-y is a brilliant dude and he has his head screwed on straight. He's got lots of irons in the fire, which is the name of the game in medicine and in life. Your life shouldn't be all one thing or another. Make time for your family, your friends, reading for pleasure, something besides this holy grail bullsh1t quest to make yourself feel better. I'm not saying there's not money to be made in medicine. There is. But it takes HARD WORK and SAVVY. You don't land that cards fellowship because you happen to have an MD after your name. You don't match ortho or optho because of how cute you come across in interviews. You have to have your sh2t together. And by the looks of things, you people don't stand a chance.

Thank you very much Elysium for the much needed post. I agree with you 100% on everything you said, especially that most people are truly clueless at early levels of training.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

You people are all so edited by Andrew_Doan sad I want to cry. Do you really think you're all going to be making $300,000? In primary care? HAHHAHAHA.

Hey... it's great to see old timers post here! I hope medical school is going well for you. Listen to Elysium. She is right. We should, however, cite some of the opinions you had last year about me...

Defocus on the money. Focus more on the other things in life that matters. If you really want to make money, then find something you love and create something out of nothing. Also, you have to work for it. Most students ask me about salaries and incomes. Most want to go to work and collect a pay check. In reality, you must have a business mind to be in private practice. The more you bill, the more you take home. Look in the mirror because that's the business partner that will dictate how much or how little you'll take home to your family.

Here's another business tip for those willing to listen and do some research.

I recommend you learn how to incorporate so that the government cannot take their chunk of taxes from other sources of business income. The laws in this country were designed to protect the corporation. If you learn the law and accounting, then as a physician, you'll make more money then you can imagine.

In the early days of colonial America, the shipping & trading industry was booming. However, the risk and lost of investment & lives were significant. To protect the investors, the corporation was formed for each ship. Thus, when the ship sank along with all the cargo and men, then investors personally were protected. The corporation folded, but the investors made more corporations. Also, the corporation is nothing more than a piece of paper filed with the state to say that the business is a living entity without a soul (i.e., not a person). The corporation has a unique tax ID number, pays taxes, but has MORE tax benefits than an individual.

Also, if you incorporate in a state like Texas or Nevada, then the corporation has no State Tax Liability.

Let's say you like your toys and want to buy a vacation home and car.


Individual
Vacation Home in Hawaii - $750,000 (must make ~$1,350,000 BEFORE TAXES)
Luxury Car - $200,000 (~ $360,000 BEFORE TAXES)

Corporation
Corporate home for executives in Hawaii - $750,000 is tax deductable. (Coca-cola has one of the biggest collection of vacation homes for its executives).
Luxury Car for the CEO - $200,000 is completely tax deductable.

While some people here are trying to figure out how they're going to be a CT surgeon (without knowing what a CT surgeon must go through - however, greed is guiding them to CT surgery) to afford a salary to support $1,710,000 before tax income to buy the above, the business minded physician does the following.

The smart physician who learned about business can get his corporation to buy the same luxuries for $950,000.

The key to wealth is that you control everything but own nothing. Your corporations own these things. Individually, you have no assets except for stock certificates to represent your ownership.

The second key is passive income. As a CT surgeon, if you go on vacation, then your pay check stops. You still pay your staff and overhead, but your pay stops.

With passive income, if you set up business entities, real estate, and other investments, then you'll be making money whether you work or vacation.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

I posted a new blog on MedRounds for those interested in why, how, and our future plans... http://www.medrounds.org/blog/2005/09/benefits-of-blogging-and-why-i-write.html

 

[curious1]

Hey... it's great to see old timers post here! I hope medical school is going well for you. Listen to Elysium. She is right. We should, however, cite some of the opinions you had last year about me...

Defocus on the money. Focus more on the other things in life that matters. If you really want to make money, then find something you love and create something out of nothing. Also, you have to work for it. Most students ask me about salaries and incomes. Most want to go to work and collect a pay check. In reality, you must have a business mind to be in private practice. The more you bill, the more you take home. Look in the mirror because that's the business partner that will dictate how much or how little you'll take home to your family.

Here's another business tip for those willing to listen and do some research.

I recommend you learn how to incorporate so that the government cannot take their chunk of taxes from other sources of business income. The laws in this country were designed to protect the corporation. If you learn the law and accounting, then as a physician, you'll make more money then you can imagine.

In the early days of colonial America, the shipping & trading industry was booming. However, the risk and lost of investment & lives were significant. To protect the investors, the corporation was formed for each ship. Thus, when the ship sank along with all the cargo and men, then investors personally were protected. The corporation folded, but the investors made more corporations. Also, the corporation is nothing more than a piece of paper filed with the state to say that the business is a living entity without a soul (i.e., not a person). The corporation has a unique tax ID number, pays taxes, but has MORE tax benefits than an individual.

Also, if you incorporate in a state like Texas or Nevada, then the corporation has no State Tax Liability.

Let's say you like your toys and want to buy a vacation home and car.


Individual
Vacation Home in Hawaii - $750,000 (must make ~$1,350,000 BEFORE TAXES)
Luxury Car - $200,000 (~ $360,000 BEFORE TAXES)

Corporation
Corporate home for executives in Hawaii - $750,000 is tax deductable. (Coca-cola has one of the biggest collection of vacation homes for its executives).
Luxury Car for the CEO - $200,000 is completely tax deductable.

While some people here are trying to figure out how they're going to be a CT surgeon (without knowing what a CT surgeon must go through - however, greed is guiding them to CT surgery) to afford a salary to support $1,710,000 before tax income to buy the above, the business minded physician does the following.

The smart physician who learned about business can get his corporation to buy the same luxuries for $950,000.

The key to wealth is that you control everything but own nothing. Your corporations own these things. Individually, you have no assets except for stock certificates to represent your ownership.

The second key is passive income. As a CT surgeon, if you go on vacation, then your pay check stops. You still pay your staff and overhead, but your pay stops.

With passive income, if you set up business entities, real estate, and other investments, then you'll be making money whether you work or vacation.

Dr Doan: I have been curious about the power of the corporation in medicine. I know that if one of my secretaries were to file a sexual harassment claim against me as the boss of the corporation, then all of the corporation's assets would be at risk. But what if a patient files a malpractice claim? Can they file a malpractice claim against a private practice or only against individual physicians? And if they can sue a practice, then what kind of insurance is necessary/available to protect a practice with significant assets? I'd be very interested to hear any of your knowledge on these topics, thanks a bunch.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

Individual
Vacation Home in Hawaii - $750,000 (must make ~$1,350,000 BEFORE TAXES)
Luxury Car - $200,000 (~ $360,000 BEFORE TAXES)

Corporation
Corporate home for executives in Hawaii - $750,000 is tax deductable. (Coca-cola has one of the biggest collection of vacation homes for its executives).
Luxury Car for the CEO - $200,000 is completely tax deductable.


The smart physician who learned about business can get his corporation to buy the same luxuries for $950,000.

Just some minor corrections though - since I was owner of a corporation for a while before going to medical school I am familiar with the topics you brought up. You can't write off the Luxury car completely - as a matter of fact, rarely as a physician unless you're traveling to patients' homes. I had to write down (yeah right, the acct. did all that) the miles that were "business related" and only that portion of the total miles was tax deductible. So if the car was $2000 a month ($24,000/yr) and I drove 15,000 miles that year... say only 10,000 was business related driving and 5,000 was personal (driving on weekends, etc), only 2/3 of that $24,000 was deductible and the other $8,000 came out of pocket after taxes. Same goes for vacation home, etc. And they don't count driving to and from work as business related. This is more like real estate agents driving their clients to homes, etc. So the corporation won't really save that much more , but it highly recommended for many factors.

Sad thing is, many of the medical students I've met would not survive in the business world for a day without guidance and partnerships and thus chose medicine where they will read, graduate and have a steady income. These are the people coming here saying how rich they're going to be. It's simply not the case for most - especially the non-business minded. And medicine is far from easy money.

Medicine is much more rewarding in other aspects than finance comparing to other careers - and this comes with a lot of hard work.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Just some minor corrections though - since I was owner of a corporation for a while before going to medical school I am familiar with the topics you brought up. You can't write off the Luxury car completely - as a matter of fact, rarely as a physician unless you're traveling to patients' homes. I had to write down (yeah right, the acct. did all that) the miles that were "business related" and only that portion of the total miles was tax deductible. So if the car was $2000 a month ($24,000/yr) and I drove 15,000 miles that year... say only 10,000 was business related driving and 5,000 was personal (driving on weekends, etc), only 2/3 of that $24,000 was deductible and the other $8,000 came out of pocket after taxes. Same goes for vacation home, etc. And they don't count driving to and from work as business related. This is more like real estate agents driving their clients to homes, etc. So the corporation won't really save that much more , but it highly recommended for many factors.

Sorry I didn't clarify. I've launched three corporations not related to my medical practice. I plan to use the company car for only company related things. I'll drive my Honda Civic Hybrid I purchased to my medical practice, and have the luxury car and vacation home strictly for business executive activities. I think I can completely write it off then if the car and vacation home is used for business... such as board meetings in Hawaii.

If I hold a board meeting in Hawaii, likewise, then the corporation can pay for this trip with complete deduction.
____________________________________________________________
I'm not a lawyer or accountant so this is not legal advice. You should confirm what I say for your personal situation.

To answer the question above about incorporating a practice. I think private practices cannot be a C-corp. I know practices that form Limited Liability Companies or an S-Corp. When you get sued, your corporation is liable. Just spin off a second corporation for your true assets: office, land, ambulatory surgical center, etc... Then your S-Corp private practice pays a lease to the corporation that owns the office, land, ambulatory surgical center, etc...
When you get sued, then the practice will own desks, chairs, and stuff inside.

In regards to malpractice, it depends what you are doing. Most people have a 2-3 million dollar policy. Because I will be a Navy Physician, I am not concerned about a malpractice policy so I'm not educated in this area.


The method above to protect assets is used by many corporations. If you sue the Marriott, for instance, then all you get are towels and soaps. The Marriott leases the property and building from a separate holding company.

 

[YouDontKnowJack]

The more you bill, the more you take home. .

I don't think that is totally true. I've been to several doctors for my illnesses, and the insurance companies don't pay them what they've billed. They either pay them a fraction of it, or even nothing at all.



***
These are good posts. I think it would be essential to have a Financial/Legal forum on SDN. Management of wealth, the law..... all this stuff is important for us to know

 

[curious1]

Sorry I didn't clarify. I've launched three corporations not related to my medical practice. I plan to use the company car for only company related things. I'll drive my Honda Civic Hybrid I purchased to my medical practice, and have the luxury car and vacation home strictly for business executive activities. I think I can completely write it off then if the car and vacation home is used for business... such as board meetings in Hawaii.

If I hold a board meeting in Hawaii, likewise, then the corporation can pay for this trip with complete deduction.
____________________________________________________________
I'm not a lawyer or accountant so this is not legal advice. You should confirm what I say for your personal situation.

To answer the question above about incorporating a practice. I think private practices cannot be a C-corp. I know practices that form Limited Liability Companies or an S-Corp. When you get sued, your corporation is liable. Just spin off a second corporation for your true assets: office, land, ambulatory surgical center, etc... Then your S-Corp private practice pays a lease to the corporation that owns the office, land, ambulatory surgical center, etc...
When you get sued, then the practice will own desks, chairs, and stuff inside.

In regards to malpractice, it depends what you are doing. Most people have a 2-3 million dollar policy. Because I will be a Navy Physician, I am not concerned about a malpractice policy so I'm not educated in this area.


The method above to protect assets is used by many corporations. If you sue the Marriott, for instance, then all you get are towels and soaps. The Marriott leases the property and building from a separate holding company.

But could medicare reimburse directly to the "holding company" that owned the office, land, etc?

Do you guys think that in private practice in a specialty like neurology or medical dermatology (high volume, lots of procedures, you run your own offices) that there is a large potential difference in income for those who are very business savvy versus those who aren't?

 

[Andrew_Doan]

I don't think that is totally true. I've been to several doctors for my illnesses, and the insurance companies don't pay them what they've billed. They either pay them a fraction of it, or even nothing at all.

What I meant was income is dependent on your billing.. not necessarily how much you charge, e.g. 10 cataract surgeries vs 50 cataract surgeries = amount of billing.

Most people here want numbers, but the truth is if you work harder, then you earn more. Work less... earn less..

 

[Andrew_Doan]

But could medicare reimburse directly to the "holding company" that owned the office, land, etc?

Do you guys think that in private practice in a specialty like neurology or medical dermatology (high volume, lots of procedures, you run your own offices) that there is a large potential difference in income for those who are very business savvy versus those who aren't?

Medicare can reimburse you to your own collections company (a third corporation) or usually directly to the practice. The holding company is like your "landlord".

Business savvy makes a difference regardless of the field. Try to know your business well, and you'll be a happy doctor.

 

[edfig99]

I don't think that is totally true. I've been to several doctors for my illnesses, and the insurance companies don't pay them what they've billed. They either pay them a fraction of it, or even nothing at all.



***
These are good posts. I think it would be essential to have a Financial/Legal forum on SDN. Management of wealth, the law..... all this stuff is important for us to know

that's usually the doctor's fault for billing something outside of the negotiated rate they signed on to when they signed their contract for the insurance company. if they agreed to take $X for a visit, then they can bill $Y all they want, they are only going to get $X and then cannot usually charge the patient for the difference between $X and $Y because of their contracts.

so in order for them to make up the difference between $X and $Y they either see more patients (since more patients -> more billing -> more to take home as long as they're not using additional resources -- i.e. spending extra hours in session leading to increased staff salaries, etc.) or they see more patient of a different plan B who has a better contract and pays $Z, which is greater than $X but likely still less than $Y or they see uninsured patients where they can charge $Y and bill and collect $Y since uninsured patients don't have the bargaining power that insurance companies A and B do.

 

[PineappleGirl]

People failed to mention law.. Though the average lawyer makes 90k with an educational background of only three years of professional school, quite a few make much more (especially the ones with sincere "med-school type" work ethic).

They also have an advantage over docs because they begin pulling down this income at a much younger age (say anywhere between 25-27 years old)... mainly because throughout their training/intern period, they get paid a relatively high salary in comparison to the salary that doctors make during their training/residency period.

I would imagine that making money early would lead to more savings and earlier investment opportunities.. there would probably also be slightly less debt to pay (3 years of law school instead of 4 years med school)... Additionally, unlike many finance, sales and real estate jobs, there is good job security as an attorney.

all leading to the assumption that it is easier to secure an excellent living standard as a lawyer in the same time it takes a physician to merely finish his/her residency.

Does anyone else want to weigh in on MD vs. JD? I am in the middle of doing my post-bacc and I am getting frustrated that it will take me a whole other year to get together the required courses to even apply to med school. And my grades are not that great, mostly all Bs with a smattering of As (for my science pre-reqs). I'd be happy with a low-tier MD or DO. I am really just starting to wonder whether going for the MD will be worth it. I have a liberal arts degree from a large private university and a very high GPA. All I would need to apply to law school would be to take the LSATs.

On the other hand, I can't see myself being super happy in law. Being able to treat patients is where it's at. Although, I'm interested more in the humanistic side of medicine: psych and family pracitce. I'm also thinking about doing a Master's in mental health counseling or an MPH.

Any advice/ opinions much appreciated. This is a very enlightening thread.

 

[fun8stuff]

Does anyone else want to weigh in on MD vs. JD? I am in the middle of doing my post-bacc and I am getting frustrated that it will take me a whole other year to get together the required courses to even apply to med school. And my grades are not that great, mostly all Bs with a smattering of As (for my science pre-reqs). I'd be happy with a low-tier MD or DO. I am really just starting to wonder whether going for the MD will be worth it. I have a liberal arts degree from a large private university and a very high GPA. All I would need to apply to law school would be to take the LSATs.

On the other hand, I can't see myself being super happy in law. Being able to treat patients is where it's at. Although, I'm interested more in the humanistic side of medicine: psych and family pracitce. I'm also thinking about doing a Master's in mental health counseling or an MPH.

Any advice/ opinions much appreciated. This is a very enlightening thread.

i have always thought it was best to do what interests you most. If you know that you will like medicine a lot more than law, then I would go for medicine. A lot of people say to make a list of pros and cons. Although I never really find this useful, perhaps you will. good luck.