Why is 3rd year a joke?

[Gumshoe]

You learn a lot from 3rd year, I believe in the system, but why is it such a joke? Self-important egos telling you things you just told them, standing around hours upon hours when it's not necessary, acting like you care about stuff you could give a rat's ass about ...

Why? It's a funny year

gs

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[Hurricane]

You learn a lot from 3rd year, I believe in the system, but why is it such a joke? Self-important egos telling you things you just told them, standing around hours upon hours when it's not necessary, acting like you care about stuff you could give a rat's ass about ...

Why? It's a funny year

gs

I think a lot of it is the "I had to stand for hours holding a retractor while a surgeon fired questions at me so you have to stand for hours holding a retractor while I fire questions at you" mentality. People have this idea that if you don't go through what they went through, you're somehow getting off easy. But I agree with you - you learn a lot during third year, including which specialty's "culture" fits you best.

 

[MD Rapper]

x

 

[PoBoy]

I find this one of the most ludicrous aspects of med school. It is ridiculous that we pay so much money and get treated are gophers and human retractors most of the time. I managed to get through by complaining to my loved ones, finding ways to sneak out of the OR or floor and telling my residents what I felt. I loved when my surgery resident yelled at me for not taking a full message for him, to which I relied that I was doing this as a favor and that I was not his secretary. I noticed the scrub nurses chuckle at this one. Normally I am more to happy to help my coworkers, but am unwilling to be degraded because I did not fulfill their expectations in this role. I still managed to get such excellent evaluations during these 3rd year rotations, mainly because I focused on learning the information and showing true interest in the field. I also was able to use a skill I learned from pledging a fraternity in undergrad - to smile at someone while still avoiding them.

I thought I would finally be done with this during 4th year, but I experienced it once again during my ICU rotation. One of the interns was updating the sign out list, when one of the other interns came up to her and told her that this was a good "med student job"! How is this related to being a doctor? They were paid employees of the the hospital, so that type of work is thier responsibility. I was told by my resident during my evaluation that I needed to show more enthuiasm in helping the "team" by getting labs and charts just like the other med student on the rotation, even though I had spent most of my time asking questions about medical topics and trying to learn from my patients. Not to mention the fact that I always offered to help the interns whenever I had some free time. I looked at her, and realized that I was not being evaluated on my ability to be a doctor, but to be a clerk.

My main frustration in this whole process it that we are all trying to learn to be the best doctors we can be, yet half of our time is wasted with meaningless tasks. We should be focusing on learning all the sorts of details and procedures that a doctor needs to know. After all, the patients (as well as the lawyers) are not going to care how much time we spent being scutted. I have tried to speak out whenever possible, and feel that it is possible to do this without appearing uncoopertive or obstinate. There is always time to help out the team, as long as meaningless tasks do not become relegated as "med student jobs." If more med student would say something, this abuse of our education could be minimized.

 

[CANES2006]

I was so tired of being scutted during my third year. But, guess what? I still get scutted as a fourth year, and I am positive that next year as the intern my life will only get worse.

 

[tupac_don]

I find this one of the most ludicrous aspects of med school. It is ridiculous that we pay so much money and get treated are gophers and human retractors most of the time. I managed to get through by complaining to my loved ones, finding ways to sneak out of the OR or floor and telling my residents what I felt. I loved when my surgery resident yelled at me for not taking a full message for him, to which I relied that I was doing this as a favor and that I was not his secretary. I noticed the scrub nurses chuckle at this one. Normally I am more to happy to help my coworkers, but am unwilling to be degraded because I did not fulfill their expectations in this role. I still managed to get such excellent evaluations during these 3rd year rotations, mainly because I focused on learning the information and showing true interest in the field. I also was able to use a skill I learned from pledging a fraternity in undergrad - to smile at someone while still avoiding them.

I thought I would finally be done with this during 4th year, but I experienced it once again during my ICU rotation. One of the interns was updating the sign out list, when one of the other interns came up to her and told her that this was a good "med student job"! How is this related to being a doctor? They were paid employees of the the hospital, so that type of work is thier responsibility. I was told by my resident during my evaluation that I needed to show more enthuiasm in helping the "team" by getting labs and charts just like the other med student on the rotation, even though I had spent most of my time asking questions about medical topics and trying to learn from my patients. Not to mention the fact that I always offered to help the interns whenever I had some free time. I looked at her, and realized that I was not being evaluated on my ability to be a doctor, but to be a clerk.

My main frustration in this whole process it that we are all trying to learn to be the best doctors we can be, yet half of our time is wasted with meaningless tasks. We should be focusing on learning all the sorts of details and procedures that a doctor needs to know. After all, the patients (as well as the lawyers) are not going to care how much time we spent being scutted. I have tried to speak out whenever possible, and feel that it is possible to do this without appearing uncoopertive or obstinate. There is always time to help out the team, as long as meaningless tasks do not become relegated as "med student jobs." If more med student would say something, this abuse of our education could be minimized.

Let me ask you a question though. Do you think that the intern is frustrated, that she has to do menial jobs like doing labs, instead of doing some other stuff. Trust me nobody wants to get labs do paperwork and such, but you still need to know how to do it and do it efficiently. So you a med student being on the end of totem pole get to do that. Trust me you will be thankful when med students help you out when you are a resident as well. If the intern and resident have to do these "menial" jobs, what makes you better, not to have to do them. As far as them gettin paid, yea but it's peanuts compared to what they are doing and what responsibility they are taking. But you are obviously a complainer. You should suck it up and get through it. I dont' see how complaining solves anything, just makes you look lazy and like a crybaby. Think of it as something that needs to be done and just do it. Funny thing is that usually the biggest slackers and those who hated the system are usually the ones that abuse it the most once they get out. Too funny.

 

[powermd]

I was so tired of being scutted during my third year. But, guess what? I still get scutted as a fourth year, and I am positive that next year as the intern my life will only get worse.

Until you're an intern, you don't even know the meaning of the word scut! The thing is- as interns, you are PAID to be a scutmonkey. In the process you happen to learn a lot of medicine. I think a lot of residents are too stupid, selfish, and unwise to realize that medical students should be treated like student-doctors and not interns-in-training. There will be plenty of time for you to learn how to be an intern when you become one. Until then, residents should protect you from as much boring, uneducational scut as possible. I hate handing out scut work to med students because 1) the work must get done, 2) students can't possibly do the work fast enough for me, and 3) I detest making people do things they don't want to do. I think an exception can be made in the instance of surgery. It is truly a privilege to be a part of the surgical team and be scrubbed in. The job of retracting should be rotated as much as possible so one person isn't feeling tortured. If you read up on your cases and do a good job retracting (which is a VERY important job), residents will often let you do more. You might get to sew a little, which is fun. Maybe you will get to put in a chest tube, or even play with the Bovey. I know med students who got to do entire appys in their fourth year. Of course, your experience is largely dependant on your residents. Many have a pay-to-play attitude, just make sure they are clear on what "playing" they will allow you to do in exchange for running scut.

In the unit setting, on the floors, and in my OR (for students rotating through anesthesiology), there's not much that students can really "do". You can't make independant medical decisions and write orders, which is the real "work" in the unit and on the floor. You can write notes that get co-signed, but that's not much fun, and a busy intern may not want to wait for you to write your note. You can round on patients and present them, which is a good experience. You can place IV lines, NG tubes, do ABGs, and if you're lucky, possibly get a central line, a-line, or intubation.

If you could set up your own medicine or surgery rotation any way you liked, what would you have the med students doing?

 

[yellowcat322]

Let me ask you a question though. Do you think that the intern is frustrated, that she has to do menial jobs like doing labs, instead of doing some other stuff. Trust me nobody wants to get labs do paperwork and such, but you still need to know how to do it and do it efficiently. So you a med student being on the end of totem pole get to do that. Trust me you will be thankful when med students help you out when you are a resident as well. If the intern and resident have to do these "menial" jobs, what makes you better, not to have to do them. As far as them gettin paid, yea but it's peanuts compared to what they are doing and what responsibility they are taking. But you are obviously a complainer. You should suck it up and get through it. I dont' see how complaining solves anything, just makes you look lazy and like a crybaby. Think of it as something that needs to be done and just do it. Funny thing is that usually the biggest slackers and those who hated the system are usually the ones that abuse it the most once they get out. Too funny.

I do agree that as a medical student there will never be a way to avoid scut work. Its built into the system and perhaps its not so bad (in the sense that it does leave more time for residents and attendings to do their job). However, I think it crosses the line when med students and interns are humiliated and insulted by residents and attendings and this happens all the time. There is no reason that hard working, mature and intelligent people who had to fight tooth and nail to get where they are should be scolded like little children, made to feel inadequate and forced to perform tasks that are clearly outside their duties and has nothing to do with their education (i.e. taking messages). It's one thing to be tough on someone for education purposes and quite another to be tough on them for your own personal ego stroking, which is what happens more often than it should. THis is an outdated approach to teaching and unfortunately it will continue to exist as long as there are people who keep saying "Suck it up and don't be a cry baby".

 

[PoBoy]

Let me ask you a question though. Do you think that the intern is frustrated, that she has to do menial jobs like doing labs, instead of doing some other stuff. Trust me nobody wants to get labs do paperwork and such, but you still need to know how to do it and do it efficiently. So you a med student being on the end of totem pole get to do that. Trust me you will be thankful when med students help you out when you are a resident as well. If the intern and resident have to do these "menial" jobs, what makes you better, not to have to do them. As far as them gettin paid, yea but it's peanuts compared to what they are doing and what responsibility they are taking. But you are obviously a complainer. You should suck it up and get through it. I dont' see how complaining solves anything, just makes you look lazy and like a crybaby. Think of it as something that needs to be done and just do it. Funny thing is that usually the biggest slackers and those who hated the system are usually the ones that abuse it the most once they get out. Too funny.

There seems to be this imaginary "totem pole" that many interns/residents like to imagine. I prefer to use the word "team," since that is what we all like to talk about on the floor. Forgive me if I feel that I should be getting the best possible education that I am paying for. I want to be the best doctor I can be, and that involves both a strong academic program and my hard work. I was always more than willing to help my team, but sure would make an issue of it if I did not see the intern making the same effort. As an intern/resident, I will only expect the same of the students I work with. Honestly, I only found a handful of interns/residents abusing the students, and personally think that most med student ask to be abused by not speaking up.

As I mentioned earlier, we as med students are going to be responsibile for our knowledge and abilities later on, when we are in our respective residency programs and careers. We attend medical school in order to be prepared to be doctors (I already learned how to do paperwork before med school). Residency is a mix of SCHOOL and a JOB. There is a reason that residents do not continue to pay while they are working and are expected to do "medial work." Passing this off to a med student is not acceptable.

Not wanting to spend most of your day and your tuition dollars updating sign out lists and getting labs does not make you "better" than an intern/resident, and standing up for yourself does not make you a "crybaby." There is simply a division of labor on the floor, with students and residents present for different reasons. I agree with powermed, that the resident should protect the students from too much scut and try to get them involved in as much interesting work as possible. I also think that if there is mutual respect between the interns and students, then each should help the other out. I always made a deal with my interns/residents, if they taught me something when they had a minute, they I would do a mindless task for them.

Oh, and about residents making peanuts - big suprise! I thought that payment was discussed when signing the residency contract. If you are unsatisfied with how little you make as a resident and feel lilke the med student should shoulder some of your burden, realize that you as a resident just received an $80,000 raise (don't forget you are not paying $40K a year anymore). Now, Tupac, please stop your complaining!

 

[Gumshoe]

I couldn't agree with you more. Many student friends of mine actually think they should just bestow M.D. on you after 2 years as a possible solution to this dilemma: Then by being able to write orders you could actually give legitimate help. I know the current system "works" (dunno how well in terms of how efficient it is), but when you think about it, many 4th years have a vacation at the end of the year, they forget tons of stuff and then they get thrown into the intern year and they barely know anything. Seriously, not that much more than 3rd years. It's all ladder/fraternal illusion. I'm sure we could find a fusion that would make more sense out of the 60k per year 3rd years do in fact pay at some places in order to stand around and not learn.

I've had a tough time with this because I've thought of the scut/pay argument you guys bring up all the time. Why should I "get the first crack at calling mom" (for example?)? What, I don't know how to talk to a person? They try to play things off as "learning examples" when all it is is bitch work for you to submit to [presumably] for an evaluation. It's also hard to get into fields when you a) know you aren't responsible and b) you aren't getting paid to do this bs work.

I'm not trying to say I don't want to impact people's care positively. I'm saying that I really do want to help, but being realistic, what urgency is there to do those little extra things that aren't really learning medicine when I'm not getting paid or being treated like I am actually helping the team or patient? Should I stand around and watch a person write a note for 6 straight hours? The fact is, a lot of residents aren't cool enough to tell you that you're wasting your time or if you stick around, it'll be wasting your time because (and I hope this isn't true) "they had to grow through it". It's crazy.

gshoe

 

[liverotcod]

Good golly you folks like to whine.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Not that I am going to pile on to the complaining cause 4th yr is THE BEST.. But liverotcod as an MS1 you have NO idea..It is funny beyond belief and if you have been through it you can talk but if you havent you are talking out of your other pie hole..

 

[liverotcod]

Not that I am going to pile on to the complaining cause 4th yr is THE BEST.. But liverotcod as an MS1 you have NO idea..It is funny beyond belief and if you have been through it you can talk but if you havent you are talking out of your other pie hole..

You know, I should probably stop at noting that I was making an observation, not an accusation.

On the other hand, if taking messages, running for coffee and labs and doing paperwork are as bad as it gets, well, I've had worse. Point taken that it should be our primary role as students to learn, but some posters seem like they're saying they're too important for that kind of work, which is pretty arrogant, and not a characteristic that I admire very much.

 

[Gumshoe]

Others think they are too important for that work, my friend, that's why it's sent down, even though it's their job.. Understand this

Glad to hear 4th year is money, Ectopic

gshoe

 

[synapse lapse]

I don't know liverotcod, I am a stupid MS1 like you, but I do think I am too important for that work. I don't see why one should go to college and then med school (and then in residency) and still be expected to do menial and trivial tasks that should be relegated to people of less education and who aren't paying a lot of money to be there for the purpose of education. While I obviously have not experienced this, I have heard so much about it from everyone, and I really disagree with the whole "I went through now you have to" BS that goes around. That's the same crap that stiffled getting a work hour limit put in for residents for so long, and frankly, its idiotic. You want to say others and myself have too much ego to do these tasks, but really the ego lies in the inability to change the system due to the idea that indoctrination is key to running this "elite frat". I don't know, hopefully, as ridiculously idealistic as it sounds (and I am a cynic!) I will not have to put scut off to med students, though undoubtedly I will as the system will put so much on me as a resident I am sure. The whole point is that people with less education, investment, and training can do menial tasks. I argue we are exactly too important to do such things, and that there's nothing wrong with that. But I am sure you disagree?