Why is it I keep hearing that its impossible to get PSYCH as an IMG?

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O

OBfan

Honestly,
It is really frustrating. Yeah I am an IMG and my step 1 is not so hot <190. But does this kill my chances? Any input would be great.
THanks

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It's nowhere near impossible. You might be limited to lesser tier programs comparitively, but there are lots of FMGs in psychiatry, as in many fields.
 
Not only is it not impossible but there are certain advantages- programs can offer you a prematch position. Don't worry psychiatry is in short supply practically the worl over at present.
 
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l'm a US student, but from everything I've heard, Psych is one of the easier programs for IMGs to get into. I've certainly seen that for myself in my med school's psych department. Psych is supposed to be more "IMG-friendly."
 
I'm not sure where you're getting your information from, but I've always been told that psych is one of the easier fields for IMGs to get into. My school would definitely demonstrate that as well, as I think over half of the psych residents are IMGs. It's probably one of the more IMG-friendly fields.

Thanks for the info and would you be so kind as to list the programs and where you went to school.
THanks
 
I am in the middle of applying so take this for what it's worth.

It seems to me reading the list on invites on the other thread that US grads are having a much easier time getting interviews than IMGs not only at top programs, which are out of reach for most IMGs, but at what I would consider middle of the road programs.

These programs are probably getting more USMD applicants than in the past and are able to be more picky about which IMGs they interview. As a result they seem to be adding requirements for IMGs such as an ECFMG certificate before application or a year of US clinical experience or score requirements. If you look at their residency rosters I think that you will find when there are IMGs in the program they are mostly in the senior ranks and that the intern and PGY2s are almost exclusively USMDs.

So, I think that psych is probably more competitive than it was not too long ago for IMGs.

But if you really want to know, I think that you have to wait till the match ends this year.
 
Adam, that may be true. But even if you look at somewhere as competitive as UCSF, they have some IMG's in their psych residency.

http://psych.ucsf.edu/education.aspx?id=1272

I counted one PGY1 and one PGY3 IMG among about 60 residents. OTOH, there were tons of UCSF grads, at least five Harvard and a couple Columbia grads along with a couple MDPhDs.

I am guessing that the two IMGs who matched there have stellar qualifications. A quick search on PubMed of the name of the PGY1 IMG seems to confirm this, as it appears to show that she is a first author of an NIMH study on childhood onset schizophrenia and obstetric complications and is also credited on other studies.
 
I didn't say they weren't highly qualified. I'm just refuting the myth that IMG's have to resign themselves to lower tier programs.

In absolute terms you are of course, correct. In relative terms, OTOH I believe that you are mistaken.
 
I have noticed a lower quality among certain IMG residents. (Remember I am an IMG, I'm not trying to make a prejudiced statement).

Which ones? Ones who have had clinical training solely in England.

That's not to attack England nor these residents. In the UK, medschool starts at 18, and as a result, teachers do not press the students as hard as they do American students. UK students know less than American students in their respective years of training.

However the UK programs compensate for this because their residency (in their country known as House Officer) & attending system is different from ours. Once they finish residency, they are still considered to be in training, in a rank called a Registrar. A Registrar is something like a fellow in the US. Its not quite as high as an attending. Then after several years as a registrar-they become a Consultant--which is more on par with an attending.

OK so getting back to the original point why does this make some IMGs worse? Several foreign medschools in the carribean solely train their medstudents in the UK during their 3rd & 4th years, and these medstudents are expected to know less, do less work & are tested less then their American counterparts.

Well its ok in the UK to do that because as I said--their system is different and they do more years of training later on even after residency. The problem happens when you got a carribean medstudent put in the UK--who is going to the US to be a resident.

This resident now in turn did not get the level of training they would've gotten in the US.

How bad is it? I've seen some IMGs who've never done 1 H&P. I myself probably did somewhere around a few hundred in my 3rd & 4th years of medschool. I've seen several IMGs who fit the above description who've only done a small handful of physical exams, while I did a few hundred as a medstudent.

Now not every foreign carribean school follows the above trend. St. George's for example--most of their students solely do US rotations. They do offer UK rotations but advise medstudents to only to a minimum amount in the UK. SGU students are on par with US students in terms of board exams scores and clinical training. I also heard Ross has several US rotations available.

I know this may offend some people, but I do not mean to attack IMGs from schools that do rotations solely in the UK. I sympathize. Most of the guys I know from these schools are good guys. Further--I know several residents from the above programs that were undertrained, but were able to catch up. But this does not change the fact that several of them haven't done several of the hands on things you need to do that occur in the US, and it doesn't change the fact that unfortunately several residents I have seen were not able to catch up.

IMGs unfortunately do often get a worse choice of picks. Residency programs are given less money per resident when they pick up IMGs, and more money when they get graduates of American medschools. So the higher up residencies almost exclusively pick US students only. However there are plenty of good programs that are willing to be above this level of prejudice/oligarchy-what have you.

As I mentioned in the other IMG thread concerning psychiatry...I've only seen IMGs have a problem getting in when their first language was not English. In fact I talked to several of them and they told me the language issue was one of the first issues brought up during the interview. I was even told my several programs that they do not want people who speak English as a 2nd language.

Again, I am an IMG. I had no problem getting into a program. I still had a good list of programs that accepted me. However the top programs--well it will be harder to get into them, but all the lower tier to the above average programs, you'll have just as much of a chance.
 
I have noticed a lower quality among certain IMG residents. (Remember I am an IMG, I'm not trying to make a prejudiced statement).

Which ones? Ones who have had clinical training solely in England.

That's not to attack England nor these residents. In the UK, medschool starts at 18, and as a result, teachers do not press the students as hard as they do American students. UK students know less than American students in their respective years of training.

However the UK programs compensate for this because their residency (in their country known as House Officer) & attending system is different from ours. Once they finish residency, they are still considered to be in training, in a rank called a Registrar. A Registrar is something like a fellow in the US. Its not quite as high as an attending. Then after several years as a registrar-they become a Consultant--which is more on par with an attending.

OK so getting back to the original point why does this make some IMGs worse? Several foreign medschools in the carribean solely train their medstudents in the UK during their 3rd & 4th years, and these medstudents are expected to know less, do less work & are tested less then their American counterparts.

Well its ok in the UK to do that because as I said--their system is different and they do more years of training later on even after residency. The problem happens when you got a carribean medstudent put in the UK--who is going to the US to be a resident.

This resident now in turn did not get the level of training they would've gotten in the US.

How bad is it? I've seen some IMGs who've never done 1 H&P. I myself probably did somewhere around a few hundred in my 3rd & 4th years of medschool. I've seen several IMGs who fit the above description who've only done a small handful of physical exams, while I did a few hundred as a medstudent.

Now not every foreign carribean school follows the above trend. St. George's for example--most of their students solely do US rotations. They do offer UK rotations but advise medstudents to only to a minimum amount in the UK. SGU students are on par with US students in terms of board exams scores and clinical training. I also heard Ross has several US rotations available.

I know this may offend some people, but I do not mean to attack IMGs from schools that do rotations solely in the UK. I sympathize. Most of the guys I know from these schools are good guys. Further--I know several residents from the above programs that were undertrained, but were able to catch up. But this does not change the fact that several of them haven't done several of the hands on things you need to do that occur in the US, and it doesn't change the fact that unfortunately several residents I have seen were not able to catch up.

IMGs unfortunately do often get a worse choice of picks. Residency programs are given less money per resident when they pick up IMGs, and more money when they get graduates of American medschools. So the higher up residencies almost exclusively pick US students only. However there are plenty of good programs that are willing to be above this level of prejudice/oligarchy-what have you.

As I mentioned in the other IMG thread concerning psychiatry...I've only seen IMGs have a problem getting in when their first language was not English. In fact I talked to several of them and they told me the language issue was one of the first issues brought up during the interview. I was even told my several programs that they do not want people who speak English as a 2nd language.

Again, I am an IMG. I had no problem getting into a program. I still had a good list of programs that accepted me. However the top programs--well it will be harder to get into them, but all the lower tier to the above average programs, you'll have just as much of a chance.

Thanks for the feedback. Would you mind sharing what kind of numbers you had on step 1 and 2. Did you go to SGU?
I would also love to read up on the fact that US residencies are given less money per resident if they are IMG's. I spoke to the residency director at my hospital and he told me he has never heard such a thing and the hospital has a lot of IMG's

Thanks
 
The source of information about the money per residents was from several residents I talked to, and I should clarify that because this info is anecdotal and at worst may be some type of residency urban myth.

However when I discussed this with other residents at one time, it was with an attending in my program who backed the statements, so I believed them.

I don't remember the exact dollar amounts, but supposedly the gov gives programs a certain amount of money per year for each resident they get. They supposedly give more money per resident if that resident is a US grad.

Remember, I heard this anecdotally, and I should apologize for not stating it was anecdotal information. Also if anyone finds the above info incorrect, please correct what I've written.

Yeah I graduated from SGU. I think the school makes top notch students & residents, but I did have a lot of problems with the way lots of things are handled in the school. I'm talking things like creature comforts and respect for students, not things like board scores & such, but I'll save you the rant.

I also wanted to mention (because I can see a wave of non-SGU IMG's getting ticked off with me) that I have seen several excellent residents from programs where they do clinical years solely in the UK. However its a type of things where (and these numbers aren't scientific--just to give you a guttcheck idea) 95% of US clinically trained students make great residents--IN THE US, where 70% of UK clinically trained students make great residents-IN THE US (remember I mentioned that the training in the UK is different--they're expected to know less when they graduate).

Its still a majority of IMGs trained in the UK that do well--but there is a noticeable and significant difference. Tell a brand new PGY-1 that's been trained to do an H&P and they don't know what to do, do the same with a brand new PGY-1 with US clinical training and they'll be able to do it usually from day 1 though they'll of course need a senior resident or attending to double check.
 
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The source of information about the money per residents was from several residents I talked to, and I should clarify that because this info is anecdotal and at worst may be some type of residency urban myth.

However when I discussed this with other residents at one time, it was with an attending in my program who backed the statements, so I believed them.

I don't remember the exact dollar amounts, but supposedly the gov gives programs a certain amount of money per year for each resident they get. They supposedly give more money per resident if that resident is a US grad.

Remember, I heard this anecdotally, and I should apologize for not stating it was anecdotal information. Also if anyone finds the above info incorrect, please correct what I've written.

Yeah I graduated from SGU. I think the school makes top notch students & residents, but I did have a lot of problems with the way lots of things are handled in the school. I'm talking things like creature comforts and respect for students, not things like board scores & such, but I'll save you the rant.

I also wanted to mention (because I can see a wave of non-SGU IMG's getting ticked off with me) that I have seen several excellent residents from programs where they do clinical years solely in the UK. However its a type of things where (and these numbers aren't scientific--just to give you a guttcheck idea) 95% of US clinically trained students make great residents--IN THE US, where 70% of UK clinically trained students make great residents-IN THE US (remember I mentioned that the training in the UK is different--they're expected to know less when they graduate).

Its still a majority of IMGs trained in the UK that do well--but there is a noticeable and significant difference. Tell a brand new PGY-1 that's been trained to do an H&P and they don't know what to do, do the same with a brand new PGY-1 with US clinical training and they'll be able to do it usually from day 1 though they'll of course need a senior resident or attending to double check.

Again, thanks for the advice. I am actually a 3rd year sgu student and I totally understand what you are saying about the school. I feel that my clinical experience has been amazing thus far. My grades are great but I really had a bad day when I took step 1 but I am making every effort to kick step 2 in the butt.

Are you currently a resident at one of SGU's affiliated hospitals or did you match elsewhere. I would really love to get some advice from you as to where would be the best place for me to do my electives in NY.

Thanks!
 
I keep hearing low tier and middle tier. Beyond programs that are not university affiliated, how do I know what a low tier program is? Does anyone know the low-tier and middle-tier USIMG friendly programs in NY, Ohio, MA and IL?
 
I go to Wake Forest and the program here is supposed to be not very competitive (based on word of mouth). I don't know how many IMG's they have taken, but I know that they had to fill spots in the scramble this past March so that is some indication. Good luck in the match.
 
There are several ways to rate a program.

The ways I've seen it rated by standardized methods- measure how many dollars it receives in research grants & average PRITE scores. I haven't seen too many other methods.

My own opinion. You want to get a varied & diversified program. Several city programs I've seen--the overwhelming majority of patients are simply malingerers & drug abusers. Not that these people don't need help but its a simple slice of what's out there.

The way you make sure you get a diversified patient population is to go to a program that services an entire county. Stoney Brook & RWJ-Camden's Atlantic City program do that. In that situation you'll see patients of all sorts of races, ages, & disorders.

You also want a program with good PRITE scores. That way you know you'll at least pass the boards.

Research? I'm eqiuvocal on that. Most attendings will not do research. Knowing research is good because it allows you to critical analyze studies better, but IMHO its not a good standard on rating programs.

The bottom line is the #1 factor residents pick on choosing their program really is simply the location. This was told to me by the Psychiatric program director from Long Island Jewish Medical Center. He told me his program actually did studies to find this. More so than the prestige of the program. I've noticed that going to the top programs only matter if you want to be some bigwig in the field. Most people don't want that. They want to be attendings, working in a hospital but aren't out to be the President of the APA.

Several programs which aren't "top ranked" are actually far superior than the higher ranked programs in terms of seeing a varied patient population and hands on teaching. E.g. so who cares if you get to work with an fMRI at one program when you'll never to get to work with one anyway in clinical practice? This type of thing is important if you want to do research---but most residents do not want to do this.
 
The bottom line is the #1 factor residents pick on choosing their program really is simply the location. This was told to me by the Psychiatric program director from Long Island Jewish Medical Center. He told me his program actually did studies to find this. More so than the prestige of the program. I've noticed that going to the top programs only matter if you want to be some bigwig in the field. Most people don't want that. They want to be attendings, working in a hospital but aren't out to be the President of the APA.

It's weird, as I hadn't put that much emphasis on location before. But after talking to various psychiatry attendings as well as residency coordinators, I've been told repeatedly it basically all boils down to location. When they tell me how 90% of psychiatrists end up staying in the area where they did their residency/fellowship, I know I've got to evaluate location a lot more carefully.
 
Residency programs are given less money per resident when they pick up IMGs, and more money when they get graduates of American medschools. So the higher up residencies almost exclusively pick US students only.

Not as far as I know. If you have information that confirms this, please let us know. Iserson's book dispells this notion by pointing out that there is a law that prohibits programs from discriminating just based on foreign medical credentials.

There are limits on resident numbers, but they have little to do with whether the graduate is from a US school or not.

http://webdb.aamc.org/advocacy/library/gme/gme0001.htm

DGME Payment Methodology

Today, Medicare pays each teaching hospital a portion of a hospital-specific capitated, or per resident, amount based on the hospital's DGME costs in FY 1984 or FY 1985. The base year per resident amount is updated annually by an inflation factor. Medicare's portion of the per resident amount is calculated based on the program's share of total hospital inpatient days.

Each hospital has two separate per resident amounts. Since 1993, each hospital receives slightly higher payments for residents training in primary care specialties and slightly lower amounts for residents in subspecialties. Primary care specialties include family medicine, general internal medicine, general pediatrics, preventive medicine, geriatric medicine, osteopathic general practice, and obstetrics/gynecology.

In addition, the program pays lower amounts for residents in subspecialties. After the period required for a resident's initial board certification in the first specialty in which the resident begins training (not to exceed a maximum of 5 years), Medicare pays only 50 percent of its share of the per resident amount. The 50 percent payment continues indefinitely, as long as the resident remains in an approved program (one which is certified by ACGME or for which an ABMS member organization offers a certificate). The maximum period of five years is extended for up to two years for training in a geriatric or preventive medicine residency or fellowship. For primary care "combined" residency programs, such as internal medicine/pediatrics, the BBA of 1997 defined the period of board eligibility to be the minimum number of years of formal training required to satisfy the initial board requirements of the longest program plus one year. More information on Medicare's rules for counting resident's may be found in the brochure, Medicare Payments for Graduate Medical Education: What Every Medical Student, Resident, and Advisory Need to Know (in PDF format).

Medicare now imposes a limit on the number of residents it supports. The limit is based on the number of FTE residents in approved allopathic or osteopathic training programs, before application of the 50 percent weighting factor, that were reported on the hospital's most recent cost report period ending on or before December 31, 1996. Dental and podiatric residents are excluded from the residency limits. The Medicare program continues to make DGME payments for residents who have graduated from U.S. and foreign schools of medicine, as long as they are in approved residency training programs.

Since July 1987, hospitals have been allowed to count the time that residents spend in settings outside the hospital, such as freestanding clinics, nursing homes, and physician offices, subject to certain agreed-upon conditions between the hospital and the outside entity. As a result of the 1997 BBA, certain "non-hospital providers," such as federally qualified health centers, rural health clinics, and Medicare+Choice organizations, may now receive DGME payments.
 
"Not as far as I know. If you have information that confirms this, please let us know. Iserson's book dispells this notion by pointing out that there is a law that prohibits programs from discriminating just based on foreign medical credentials."

Thanks for making a possible correction. The above info I posted was based on anectdotal data. I assumed it was true since I heard it from a few attendings.

I apologize for any confusion this may have caused.

Just want to reiterate--because it seems to be a general point of anxiety here--don't worry if you don't get into a top rated program. Most of us just want to be good practicing doctors. You don't have to be #1 at some top residency to do that. So long as you are happy in your program, keep up with your studies and get a diverse patient population with good teaching attendings, you're ahead of most.
 
hi fiend i got iv from his program but i don;t know much about it .. plz give some info about this program.

thanks
 
a psych friend of mine said that "most" of her colleagues (in Michigan) are FMG's. so, it can't be that tough for you to land a spot.
 
> There are several ways to rate a program. The ways I've seen it rated by standardized methods- measure how many dollars it receives in research grants & average PRITE scores. I haven't seen too many other methods.

Hey. Do you have a link?

Thanks!
 
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