Why is it so hard for California residents to get into med school?

[willthatsall]

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I see people on here discussing how much it sucks to be from California, but I never really thought about it until now. There are a lot of public med schools in CA, so why is it so tough? I am thinking the huge population of CA is a big factor, but does that mean it is only hard to get into state schools? Is it harder for CA residents to get into other schools too? I'm just wondering why CA residents routinely have to apply to 20 or 30 schools.

 

[Eraserhead]

Its not harder for other schools, just the CA ones due to the proportion of applicants versus spaces.

 

[dhoonlee]

.

 

[Medikit]

It sucks.

 

[calcrew14]

It is even harder for a cali to get in a Txas school. How does it come to this?
It must be the unrequited love business that people talk about..... Wait a beat! Don't read this yet. Let me check how many t I need. 😀

 

[NDESTRUKT]

there are also a lot of hella smart people in CA. many from families who are first generation over here and influence their children to work their asses off in school. it's both a good and a bad thing.

 

[TRUE]

there are also a lot of hella smart people in CA.

And people in other states are idiots. We don't study outside of california. Why is it that people from california tend to think that something about their state is so different from any other?

 

[dhoonlee]

.

 

[Medikit]

And people in other states are idiots. We don't study outside of california. Why is it that people from california tend to think that something about their state is so different from any other?

There are less hella smart people in other states than in California 😉. Less idiots too 🙄

 

[WatchingWaiting]

Davis and Irvine, which are the least prestigious of the five UC med schools, still have average matriculant MCATs in the 32 range. The national matriculant average is more like a 30, and for most state schools, the average is in the high 20s. Thus, while a resident of Nevada or Arizona or Missouri and most other states has at least one state school that will have relatively low required academic stats (ie: a 28ish MCAT) to gain admission, the poor Cali person has no "easy" state school, since even his or her least competitive options still have an above national average for admitted students accepted MCAT score.

 

[DO it right]

One of the other reasons is that our "public" schools are open to nation wide acceptances. For example, UCLA accepts applications internationally as long as they can show that they can support themselves...then school gets them a student visa. Other schools such as Irvine and even San Diego accept a large proportion of out of state applicants regardless of their "preference" for cali residents.

Oh, something else....the reason that Cali kids might be smart...not necessarily "smarter" is because we got one of the best university systems in the world...the UCs...I can't speak for other states though

 

[BubbleBobble]

Davis and Irvine, which are the least prestigious of the five UC med schools, still have average matriculant MCATs in the 32-33 range. The national matriculant average is more like a 30, and for most state schools, the average is in the high 20s. Thus, while a resident of Nevada or Arizona or Missouri has at least one state school that will have relatively low required academic stats (ie: a 28ish MCAT) to gain admission, the poor Cali person has no "easy" state school, since even his or her least competitive options still have an above national average for admitted students accepted MCAT score.

Just think how we Washingtonians feel.

 

[NDESTRUKT]

And people in other states are idiots. We don't study outside of california. Why is it that people from california tend to think that something about their state is so different from any other?

remove stick from ass, then reply.

i'm not even from California...but working here after a while I do see that on average it seems most of the indian/asian/any other first gen families that come over study extremely hard and CA seems to have a high number of people who fit in this category.

calm down, take things with a grain of salt.

 

[WatchingWaiting]

Just think how we Washingtonians feel.

Actually, Washington is pretty similar to the Cali situation, and not actually worse off, at least on the basis of raw stats. UWash is a top-15 school in reputation and research spending, but its average student has an MCAT/GPA combo that is similar to Davis and Irvine. So, it's similar to the Cali situation, but not worse. And, actually, given that it requires similar stats to get in, you're in some ways better off since you're getting a considerably more prestigious school for the same numbers.

 

[BubbleBobble]

Actually, Washington is pretty similar to the Cali situation, and not actually worse off, at least on the basis of raw stats. UWash is a top-15 school in reputation and research spending, but its average student has an MCAT/GPA combo that is similar to Davis and Irvine. So, it's similar to the Cali situation, but not worse. And, actually, given that it requires similar stats to get in, you're in some ways better off since you're getting a considerably more prestigious school for the same numbers.

I'd still rather have more than one medical school in my home state. It makes the stress level high if you want stay in Washington.

 

[BubbleBobble]

I just found some interesting data from the AAMC:
Applicants and Matriculants by State of Legal Residence, 2003

Apparently, it's harder for students in the western US to go to medical school in-state (which makes sense, because there are fewer schools). But considering that CA has so many applicants, it has a surprisingly low percentage of in-state matriculants.

WA has the lowest percentage of in-state matriculants, but this could be an artifact of how few students apply, or that UWash students come from Idaho, Alaska, Wyoming, and Montana too.

 

[Spitting Camel]

Other schools such as Irvine and even San Diego accept a large proportion of out of state applicants regardless of their "preference" for cali residents.

Actually, Irvine and Davis rarely ever accept out-of-state applicants. SD is a little more generous, maybe a hand-full, and LA and SF have about 85% CA residents. Stanford, USC, and LLU are private, so there is no real preference for state of residence. I do know, however, that LLU tries hard to make it 50-50.


Believe me, I KNOW how lucky I am to be going to a CA school and I will forever be grateful for this opportunity. I'm sure anyone else staying here can attest to my feelings.

 

[mikeyboy]

There's a lot of reasons Californians have it rough, even with the many schools we have, most of which have been covered (quality of applicants, quality of school, number of applicants, out of state acceptances). More people seem to want to come here than to most other states outside of maybe New York. And, there are a lot of Asians in California, which I believe are the only ORM (I know there are a lot of hispanics too that would counteract this).

Like SpittingCamel, I too am so thankful that I can stay in state.

 

[adorible23]

In addition to all of the other facts mentioned, California medical students are often disadvantaged in out of state applications because schools will assume they are your back-up because of course why would you not want to take advantage of the great public schools in your state?

I don't know how many times I was asked in an interview, " Tell us why you want to be here and not at one of the UC's, or, are you applying to any of the UC's." Asking about other applications or school preferences is generally unheard of and pretty unfair. It cost me outright acceptance to Georgetown because I couldnt convince them I wanted to leave Cali enough, in all fairness they were right, but it still shouldnt be a handicap

 

[Rose122]

Additionally, Californians comprise the second largest demographic at most out of state private medical schools. Therefore, diversity issues may make it more difficult for Californians to matriculate even at those schools.

 

[TRUE]

remove stick from ass, then reply.

i'm not even from California...but working here after a while I do see that on average it seems most of the indian/asian/any other first gen families that come over study extremely hard and CA seems to have a high number of people who fit in this category.

calm down, take things with a grain of salt.

Let's just make sweeping generalizations about how smart people are from certain states and then take them with a grain of salt. Great idea. I could care less what people from California think about themselves. My only point is that there are smart people everywhere. To make matters worse, there are many states where there are a lot fewer "state school seats" than there are in California, yet you don't hear others complaining about how hard it is to get into their state schools.

People from California just need to get over themselves.

As for the first generation comments, that can easily be said about many other states as well including NY which has quite a few immigrant families. Anyone have the stats on immigrants in california vs. ny?

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Pftt, you're just jealous of California's obvious intellectual superiority and political enlightenment. What other state could elect Reagen and Schwarzenegger for governor? Oh and let's not forget Richard Nixon.

 

[Rose122]

I wasn't buying into the premise that California students are superior. It's just that there are more California pre-meds by virtue of population and there are more pre-meds per capita. Of course California is fortunate to have so many med schools, especially when some states don't even have a med school, but the class sizes are small and some of the seats go to out of state and international students unlike other state schools that proclude out of state matriculants.

 

[Medikit]

It actually seems to me that it's pretty difficult for Arizona and Washington Pre-meds

 

[samurai_lincoln]

It actually seems to me that it's pretty difficult for Arizona and Washington Pre-meds

Colorado and Oregon are no joke either. The west in general has a paucity of med schools, particularly given the disparate westward growth of population the past few decades. The only private M.D. schools in the western U.S. are LLU and USC, correct? Oops, forgot Stanford.

 

[Gleevec]

Please, Californians arent smarter than any other state.

http://www.sq.4mg.com/IQschools.htm

If you take a look at those scores, most of the big states arent that far apart. So that argument is conceited crap.

The real problem is that California has fallen way behind in building medical schools. Rather than spreading the wealth out and building new med schools, Cali decided to invest more heavily in the ones they already had. So the public schools Cali already has tend to be better, but that doesnt do you much good if you dont get into one.

Edit: corrected link since IQ scores were not verified on site

 

[Medikit]

Please, Californians arent smarter than any other state.

http://www.sq.4mg.com/IQstates.htm

If you take a look at those scores, most of the big states arent that far apart. So that argument is conceited crap.

The real problem is that California has fallen way behind in building medical schools. Rather than spreading the wealth out and building new med schools, Cali decided to invest more heavily in the ones they already had. So the public schools Cali already has tend to be better, but that doesnt do you much good if you dont get into one.

We have more smart people than any other state 😀

 

[Gleevec]

We have more smart people than any other state

Then that also means you have more dumb people than any other state (to balance out the average IQ of the state)

 

[Medikit]

Then that also means you have more dumb people than any other state (to balance out the average IQ of the state)

I know, I already said that in the thread 🙁

 

[hakksar]

Yes the entire west has a hard time getting into medical school. In fact, in the western region only Montana and Utah have higher matriculation rates than California. That means that people in Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Washington, and Wyoming all have a harder time getting into medical school than people from California. The west as a region has the lowest acceptance rate of any in the United States (followed by the south).

Source: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2003/2003slrmat.htm

 

[slackerjock]

Pftt, you're just jealous of California's obvious intellectual superiority and political enlightenment. What other state could elect Reagen and Schwarzenegger for governor? Oh and let's not forget Richard Nixon.

Hmm, Minnesota.

 

[LoneCoyote]

Yes the entire west has a hard time getting into medical school. In fact, in the western region only Montana and Utah have higher matriculation rates than California. That means that people in Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Washington, and Wyoming all have a harder time getting into medical school than people from California. The west as a region has the lowest acceptance rate of any in the United States (followed by the south).

Source: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2003/2003slrmat.htm

Yup, it's hard to get into med school in the West. And if you look at the chart you just posted, AZ, HI, NV, and NM all have a higher percentage of applicants matriculating in-state than CA does. CO, OR, UT, and WA have a lower percentage who matriculate in-state. After going to school at U of Arizona, my impression was that it was easier in terms of scores, GPA, etc. to get into U of A for med school than it is to get into any of the UCs. The advisor at U of A told me that was the case, and some people from CA with lower stats to take a year off to work and get AZ residency so that they can get in. We definitely need more med schools in the West.

 

[hakksar]

That is very true about it being easier GPA and MCAT wise to get into U of AZ then any UC. I would not be surprised if this was also true at Nevada. This is because those states only accept in state residents (thus a much smaller applicant pool). However, as you mentioned it is harder to get into a home state school for people from Oregon, Washington, Colorado, and Utah than for people from California . . . not to mention people from Alaska, Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming who have no possibility of attending medical school in their home states since there is not any.

 

[calcrew14]

😀

In case it hasn't already been so, sooner or later, Cali will be smarter than other states. Here, people with minor league MCATs or GPAs or deficits there beyond are considered aliens. They are immediately subjected to deportation. *still keep on ducking as usual*🙄

😀

 

[Jalby]

Please, Californians arent smarter than any other state.

http://www.sq.4mg.com/IQschools.htm

If you take a look at those scores, most of the big states arent that far apart. So that argument is conceited crap.

The real problem is that California has fallen way behind in building medical schools. Rather than spreading the wealth out and building new med schools, Cali decided to invest more heavily in the ones they already had. So the public schools Cali already has tend to be better, but that doesnt do you much good if you dont get into one.

Edit: corrected link since IQ scores were not verified on site

Even with those stats, it does back up the statement that Californians have smarter smart people than other states. A ton of those fourth graders are first genereation immigrants that wouldn't do well on a math or reading. They bring down the average score a ton.


I think the smartest Californians are smarter than other states because of the fact they have to compete a lot harder to stay in california, and then their genes get passed on down the line. Where as in the midwest states there has been an exodus from the farming towns to the cities and the coast over the last 50-60 years. It a semi-natural selection that the smarter people would end up in the places that are the most desirable to live.

 

[Medikit]

I think the smartest Californians are smarter than other states because of the fact they have to compete a lot harder to stay in california, and then their genes get passed on down the line. Where as in the midwest states there has been an exodus from the farming towns to the cities and the coast over the last 50-60 years. It a semi-natural selection that the smarter people would end up in the places that are the most desirable to live.

I think you're stretching it there.

 

[kingcer0x]

Even with those stats, it does back up the statement that Californians have smarter smart people than other states. A ton of those fourth graders are first genereation immigrants that wouldn't do well on a math or reading. They bring down the average score a ton.


I think the smartest Californians are smarter than other states because of the fact they have to compete a lot harder to stay in california, and then their genes get passed on down the line. Where as in the midwest states there has been an exodus from the farming towns to the cities and the coast over the last 50-60 years. It a semi-natural selection that the smarter people would end up in the places that are the most desirable to live.

The Economist published those IQ average by state ad's before they knew they were a hoax. With their tail between their legs, they then published the mathematics scores by state like on the site, and which presidential candidate in 2000 won that particular state.

Even assuming that every californian who is 'smarter than the average applicant' and who is allowed to go to med school in california will reproduce with another smarter californian, there are other confounding factors. Your reproductive potential isnt all that high as a doctor cause you wont have enough time to raise your kids, unless you marry a less mentally inclined individual with a less demanding job. but then you are 'down-breeding'.

Smart people are made (reared), not born. They will migrate to desirable locations to make up the 'educated elite'. But trust me, the smart people on the east coast think long and hard to move to cali, when FL is a 100 dollar plane ride away. There are plenty of intelligent people who don't leave NY, Boston, DC... just for the sake of beaches and nicer winters.

So, enjoy your sun, your huge economy, and that extra hard work you put in may come in handy some day when you move to the north east and realize life isnt all fun and games just kidding!

 

[Gleevec]

Even with those stats, it does back up the statement that Californians have smarter smart people than other states. A ton of those fourth graders are first genereation immigrants that wouldn't do well on a math or reading. They bring down the average score a ton.


I think the smartest Californians are smarter than other states because of the fact they have to compete a lot harder to stay in california, and then their genes get passed on down the line. Where as in the midwest states there has been an exodus from the farming towns to the cities and the coast over the last 50-60 years. It a semi-natural selection that the smarter people would end up in the places that are the most desirable to live.

I dont know if its fair to say that people who make more money are necessarily smarter. PhD professors generally make less than most MBAs and lawyers, but lets face it, they are a heck of a lot smarter.

Also, who is smarter-- the doctor who works 65 hours a week to live in a medium sized house in Cali, or the doctor who works 50 hours a week to live in a huge house in say, Atlanta? Id say the latter.

 

[Alexander99]

Also, who is smarter-- the doctor who works 65 hours a week to live in a medium sized house in Cali, or the doctor who works 50 hours a week to live in a huge house in say, Atlanta? Id say the latter.

But California has hotter women so the CA doc is smarter. Basics man, basics!

 

[Gleevec]

But California has hotter women so the CA doc is smarter. Basics man, basics!

If you like short asian women with A-cups that look like men, Cali is for you!

Proof: Berkeley, California 😉

 

[Alexander99]

If you like short asian women with A-cups that look like men, Cali is for you!

Proof: Berkeley, California 😉

LMAO! I always thought you were a cool SDNer but you're now up there with my favorites bro. Looks like you feel about Berzerkly how I feel about UCSD.

Actually dude, if you live in San Diego and visit the beaches, especially on an afternoon during the weekend, you'll see quite a few hot white girls (very few asians.) They have the annoying habbit of bringing their low-life, drunk boyfriends though so you have to be willing to kick some ass if you want to get anywhere with them. I try to avoid that situation (unless the girl is REALLY hot) cause I like to go to the beach to chill, not kick ass. 😀

 

[hakksar]

I think it would be foolish to think that Cali has the smartest population. This would ignore the fact that University of Texas Southwestern has the most nobel laureates of any Univerisity in the United States, the fact that the Ivy League schools are located in the Northeast, and the fact that John Hopkins is in Maryland. If it is a competition issue then the smartest people would be in Montana since they have the more competition for the number of spots available (since they have no in-state school and only a very small number of WAMI spots at UW) but have a higher matriculation rate then Californians.

 

[WatchingWaiting]

If you like short asian women with A-cups that look like men, Cali is for you!

Proof: Berkeley, California 😉

I guess you're more into dating corn-fed, Texas-sized heifers whose breasts are big and saggy to match their low-rider jean overhanging gut and monstrous posterior?

Proof: Waco, Texas

 

[Jalby]

You know, I totally mailed in the point I was trying to make. I got distracted. Here is what I am trying to say and what I was semi trying to prove (that there is a good chance that the smartest people in cali are smarter than the smartest people in your average state):

Those 4th grade scores are misleading because of all the recent immigrants trained in California and would bring down the averages. They should be higher when compared to states without a large immigrant population.

Pont number two is that there are a lot of successfull people who live in Los Angeles, San Diego, San Franscisco, etc, etc, because the weather, location, etc, etc, tends to be a lot better than other places in the country. These people raise children, be it with good genes or without, that are more academically challenged and compete at a higher level than say a Arizona. These kids go to UC's, Stanford, etc, etc, places where they have to work harder to be at the top of their class. Even if they don't get to the top, they still work harder. I think this is a why Californians get high MCAT scores and stuff like that.

That being said, I went to a high school without the competition (voted worst place to raise kids, www.zpg.org) and didn't have the competition til I got to college. And I'm was shocked with how competative everyone was to be at the top.

Alright, that was written and explained a lot better than my other mailed in response.

 

[Gleevec]

LMAO! I always thought you were a cool SDNer but you're now up there with my favorites bro. Looks like you feel about Berzerkly how I feel about UCSD.

Actually dude, if you live in San Diego and visit the beaches, especially on an afternoon during the weekend, you'll see quite a few hot white girls (very few asians.) They have the annoying habbit of bringing their low-life, drunk boyfriends though so you have to be willing to kick some ass if you want to get anywhere with them. I try to avoid that situation (unless the girl is REALLY hot) cause I like to go to the beach to chill, not kick ass. 😀

Actually, I am exaggerating based on own limited experience (and mainly that of my friends), but yeah, each state has its fair share of hotties. The nice thing about living in warm climate, of course, is that girls dress appropriately.

I think I would be depressed as heck living in the dreary north based on that.

 

[Gleevec]

I guess you're more into dating corn-fed, Texas-sized heifers whose breasts are big and saggy to match their low-rider jean overhanging gut and monstrous posterior?

Proof: Waco, Texas

LOL. Apparently you missed out on: Hilary Duff, Shannon Elizabeth, Jessica Simpson, Beyonce Knowles, Renee Zelwegger, etc.

And apparently you missed out on Playboy ranking UT-Austin the #1 school for hot chicks.

Well, if you don't think they're hot, I think you've just come out of the closet on this thread.

 

[Gleevec]

You know, I totally mailed in the point I was trying to make. I got distracted. Here is what I am trying to say and what I was semi trying to prove (that there is a good chance that the smartest people in cali are smarter than the smartest people in your average state):

Jalby, you missed the gravy train. This thread switched to boobies about 5 posts ago.

 

[WatchingWaiting]

LOL. Apparently you missed out on: Hilary Duff, Shannon Elizabeth, Jessica Simpson, Beyonce Knowles, Renee Zelwegger, etc.

Well, if you don't think they're hot, I think you've just come out of the closet on this thread.

I'll admit that your initial statement was pretty funny, mostly due its novelty rather than its accuracy. But, be serious, you're going to point out five actress/singer/general hotties as evidence of overall hotness in a state of 20 million people? I've seen a lot of excess beef when visiting the midwest and south, and, unfortunately, an awful lot of it was not on the cows.

 

[Jalby]

Jalby, you missed the gravy train. This thread switched to boobies about 5 posts ago.

Oh. When I started writing my post we were still on the topic about how Californians were soooooo much smarter and better than the rest of those poor hapless souls who are unfortunate enough to live in the one of the other 49 states and how we should just leave you guys to wallow in your own misery. But since we are on the topic of boobs, Cali definately wins there, too. Guess who invented silicon?? And it wasn't originally made for circuits.

 

[Fermata]

As far as I'm concerned you Cali folk can have the state.

That's less skin cancer for the rest of us. 😀