Why is Oral Surgery so competitive? I don't understand

[Biden_white]

Ok - so Oral Surgery.

****tiest schedules out of every specialist - routinely works 80+ hours in residency (80 hour rule doesn't apply to *dental* specialties apparently) for 4-6 YEARS

Plus, your general surgery years are hell.

Why would someone choose oral surgery over something like Endodontics or Ortho? Both specialties that make mid 300s, and have cushier schedules than an oral surgeon?

I'm genuinely curious. Out of all the gunners in my class, maybe like half are gunning for oral surgery. It seems like such a poor tradeoff though. 6 years is longer than most medical specialties, and Oral surgery tends to have a fairly narrow scope of practice (in *practice*... not in theory)

I'm over here wondering if there's something people know that I don't - or are people seriously just masochists? As a 2nd year student, it's getting to be that time where people are considering what they're going to be doing after graduation, and I'm legitimately curious as to why people put it on such a pedestal?

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[tothepark]

 

[cacazor]

Because gunners are gonna gun.
Oral surgery is the most prestigious specialty because they are most like physicians despite being dentists and their scope have more life-changing procedures. But it being competitive is almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy because gunners will gun for what is most competitive which happens to be oral surgery. So oral surgery stay competitive because gunners keep it competitive

If life-style were part of their thought process, then gunners wouldnt be gunning because that gunning life is a hard life

 

[Rambunctious]

Ok - so Oral Surgery.

****tiest schedules out of every specialist - routinely works 80+ hours in residency (80 hour rule doesn't apply to *dental* specialties apparently) for 4-6 YEARS

Plus, your general surgery years are hell.

Why would someone choose oral surgery over something like Endodontics or Ortho? Both specialties that make mid 300s, and have cushier schedules than an oral surgeon?

I'm genuinely curious. Out of all the gunners in my class, maybe like half are gunning for oral surgery. It seems like such a poor tradeoff though. 6 years is longer than most medical specialties, and Oral surgery tends to have a fairly narrow scope of practice (in *practice*... not in theory)

I'm over here wondering if there's something people know that I don't - or are people seriously just masochists? As a 2nd year student, it's getting to be that time where people are considering what they're going to be doing after graduation, and I'm legitimately curious as to why people put it on such a pedestal?

Ortho makes mid 300s!? they make a little more than general dentists and if you live in California, you basically make the same as general dentists (look it up).

 

[vellnueve]

Ok - so Oral Surgery.

****tiest schedules out of every specialist - routinely works 80+ hours in residency (80 hour rule doesn't apply to *dental* specialties apparently) for 4-6 YEARS

Plus, your general surgery years are hell.

Why would someone choose oral surgery over something like Endodontics or Ortho? Both specialties that make mid 300s, and have cushier schedules than an oral surgeon?

I'm genuinely curious. Out of all the gunners in my class, maybe like half are gunning for oral surgery. It seems like such a poor tradeoff though. 6 years is longer than most medical specialties, and Oral surgery tends to have a fairly narrow scope of practice (in *practice*... not in theory)

I'm over here wondering if there's something people know that I don't - or are people seriously just masochists? As a 2nd year student, it's getting to be that time where people are considering what they're going to be doing after graduation, and I'm legitimately curious as to why people put it on such a pedestal?

Nothing worth having comes easy...

 

[Biden_white]

Ortho makes mid 300s!? they make a little more than general dentists and if you live in California, you basically make the same as general dentists (look it up).

Well - they *used* too haha - which is why it's still competitive now, but most pre-dents/dental students are too deluded to take an honest look at the numbers behind the field they want to go into

I remember someone showing me a chart showing the creation of Invisalign overlaid on orthodontist salaries & number of graduates, and it was LOL-worthy. Average salary dropped like 100k within a decade. But thats another story...

 

[CMistry]

Some like the challenge, some like the prestige, some like the money/lifestyle. That about covers it.

 

[DaleDoback]

Because gunners are gonna gun.
Oral surgery is the most prestigious specialty because they are most like physicians despite being dentists and their scope have more life-changing procedures. But it being competitive is almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy because gunners will gun for what is most competitive which happens to be oral surgery. So oral surgery stay competitive because gunners keep it competitive

If life-style were part of their thought process, then gunners wouldnt be gunning because that gunning life is a hard life

I really had trouble following this one.

And you do get your ass kicked in for 4-6 years of residency, but after being out, it's totally worth it. Great quality of life, great pay, ability to stay in the office with well-paid surgeries then go to the hospital for the fun stuff that doesn't pay you anything.

It's not for everyone, but residency was probably the best 4 years of my life. It was tough but met some great people and friends and learned 10x as much as any other educational experience.

 

[faceman]

I believe some surgeons are eventually able to find a balance between academic/hospital and private practice. This way you get the perks of running a business and seeing a wider scope.

Is this a commonality or do most OMS lean completely to one direction?

 

[Bereno]

There are many ways to look at this. One such example: many people pay their hard earned money in order to wake up early and go somewhere where they are allowed to pick up heavy things, and then put them down, and then pick them up again and then put them down again... and then they try and regulate how much and what they eat all the while enduring the hunger and pain of performing this routine! Why would anyone want to go pick up heavy things and put them down again so many times when you could just sit back and enjoy the couch lifestyle?! The reward is a healthy body, longevity, confidence, pride, etc. Why would someone go through such a rigorous residency? The reasons are the personal, emotional, social, and financial, payoffs! Many people see this and want to be able to earn it for themselves.

 

[Tooth]

OS is not for you. Consider endo, ortho, or peds.

 

[OrthoApp2016]

If you do 4-6 years of advanced education to pull 3rds and place implants it isn't worth it. More and more GP's are placing implants and eating into that market share. If you are into all the hospital stuff then maybe it is worth it.

 

[vellnueve]

If you do 4-6 years of advanced education to pull 3rds and place implants it isn't worth it. More and more GP's are placing implants and eating into that market share. If you are into all the hospital stuff then maybe it is worth it.

I think many if not most of the OMSs out there would disagree, since that accounts for the majority of OMS private practices.

 

[PaulC]

In addition to what others have mentioned, I believe that oral surgery is inherently competitive because residency programs are looking for people who can make it through a tough 4-6 years

 

[jippyslim]

Ortho makes mid 300s!? they make a little more than general dentists and if you live in California, you basically make the same as general dentists (look it up).

Source?

 

[Rambunctious]

Source?

http://www1.salary.com/CA/orthodontist-salary.html
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291023.htm

 

[jippyslim]

http://www1.salary.com/CA/orthodontist-salary.html
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291023.htm

These are not the most reliable sources for salary info.

 

[OrthoApp2016]

I think many if not most of the OMSs out there would disagree, since that accounts for the majority of OMS private practices.

It takes 4-6 years to receive the necessary education/experience to extract 3rds and place implants? Overqualified is a term that comes to mind.

 

[The Anhedonia]

It takes 4-6 years to receive the necessary education/experience to extract 3rds and place implants? Overqualified is a term that comes to mind.

It takes 2-3 years to glue brackets and wires to teeth?

 

[Destiny11]

Ok - so Oral Surgery.

****tiest schedules out of every specialist - routinely works 80+ hours in residency (80 hour rule doesn't apply to *dental* specialties apparently)

Same for a Pros residency

 

[DaleDoback]

Same for a Pros residency

If you truly just compared a pros residency to an OMS residency, I will never visit this site again.

 

[DaleDoback]

It takes 4-6 years to receive the necessary education/experience to extract 3rds and place implants? Overqualified is a term that comes to mind.

How long would I need to train to sedate your kid safely and have the ability to intubate them or worst case scenario, cric or trach them? A weekend class do that for me?

 

[OrthoApp2016]

I think many if not most of the OMSs out there would disagree, since that accounts for the majority of OMS private practices.

Obviously you become proficient in a wide range of things in an OMFS residency, no one would argue that, but if ALL you do is extract 3rd and place implants you are overqualified, no question about it.

 

[DaleDoback]

Obviously you become proficient in a wide range of things in an OMFS residency, no one would argue that, but if ALL you do is extract 3rd and place implants you are overqualified, no question about it.

Fair. Sorry, I think I took that the wrong way earlier. All of us who take hospital call and keep hospital privileges agree with that as well. Not great for our specialty.

 

[Rambunctious]

These are not the most reliable sources for salary info.

So the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor is not reliable? Does University of Nebraska not teach you guys how to research properly?

 

[vellnueve]

Fair. Sorry, I think I took that the wrong way earlier. All of us who take hospital call and keep hospital privileges agree with that as well. Not great for our specialty.

Not great for the specialty but it is the reality for a huge portion of the OMFS population.

Not arguing that they aren't overqualified, but those practitioners don't seem to mind.

I certainly hope I get to practice full scope after residency.

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

.

 

[Destiny11]

If you truly just compared a pros residency to an OMS residency, I will never visit this site again.

It is true in terms of numbers of hours / week

 

[DaleDoback]

It is true in terms of numbers of hours / week

You have lost your mind. You guys sleep in the clinic or hospital often for emergency denture relines?

 

[jippyslim]

So the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor is not reliable? Does University of Nebraska not teach you guys how to research properly?

Haven't started yet buddy so i'll let your snark slide. If you know how this data is calculated, without just taking it at face value, you'd know that it takes into account everyone kind of worker, i.e owner, full-time, part-time, practice setting, etc. If you look at the ADA surveys, the averages are higher, in some cases much higher depending on how you want to practice. But you probably know this already, since your school is superior in proper critical research.

 

[Bernie Sanders]

Oral 'Surgeons' are nothing more than a bunch of glorified general dentists who are good at giving Versed, chucking thirds, and placing implants. Cute how they think they deserve that title of 'surgeons'. What a joke.

 

[Silent Cool]

There are many ways to look at this. One such example: many people pay their hard earned money in order to wake up early and go somewhere where they are allowed to pick up heavy things, and then put them down, and then pick them up again and then put them down again... and then they try and regulate how much and what they eat all the while enduring the hunger and pain of performing this routine! Why would anyone want to go pick up heavy things and put them down again so many times when you could just sit back and enjoy the couch lifestyle?! The reward is a healthy body, longevity, confidence, pride, etc. Why would someone go through such a rigorous residency? The reasons are the personal, emotional, social, and financial, payoffs! Many people see this and want to be able to earn it for themselves.

@Bereno drops the mic.

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

.

 

[DaleDoback]

Oral 'Surgeons' are nothing more than a bunch of glorified general dentists who are good at giving Versed, chucking thirds, and placing implants. Cute how they think they deserve that title of 'surgeons'. What a joke.

Orthos are a bunch of crybabies. Get over it. You have a good, clean, easy job. With all the new technology coming out, your job is even easier. Stop your whining. Dermatologists have it much harder than you guys and they dont whine anywhere as much as you guys do.

I think this actually really is Bernie Sanders. I'm feeling the Bern!!!!!

 

[Rambunctious]

-

 

[The Anhedonia]

Cute how they think they deserve that title of 'surgeons'. What a joke.

Indeed, the surgeon title is only reserved for periodontists.

 

[Sublimazing]

Indeed, the surgeon title is only reserved for periodontists.

They're more than that, they're the plastic surgeons of the mouth. I love seeing my perio facebook friends post pictures of themselves fully scrubbed and gowned...in their offices.

And don't feed this troll. A quick review of his past history reveals he hates all specialties and hates his own school. He's a miserable individual. But according to him, after getting your MD from Harvard at least you'll be good at giving Versed.

 

[Bernie Sanders]

They're more than that, they're the plastic surgeons of the mouth. I love seeing my perio facebook friends post pictures of themselves fully scrubbed and gowned...in their offices.

And don't feed this troll. A quick review of his past history reveals he hates all specialties and hates his own school. He's a miserable individual. But according to him, after getting your MD from Harvard at least you'll be good at giving Versed.

Easy there buddy! Calm down. No need to get soo angry lol..It was sarcasm and a joke, something I routinely do when posting on SDN. Calm down, young one. I do hate my school (and you'd be foolish to think I'm the only one) but I don't hate all specialties lol.

 

[armorshell]

They're more than that, they're the plastic surgeons of the mouth. I love seeing my perio facebook friends post pictures of themselves fully scrubbed and gowned...in their offices.

And don't feed this troll. A quick review of his past history reveals he hates all specialties and hates his own school. He's a miserable individual. But according to him, after getting your MD from Harvard at least you'll be good at giving Versed.

"Just a little selfie before SCRUBBING IN for my big SURGERY today!"

*spends 90 minutes putting 30 interrupted 5-0 silks in a 2x1cm membrane*

 

[wassssup]

"Just a little selfie before SCRUBBING IN for my big SURGERY today!"

*spends 90 minutes putting 30 interrupted 5-0 silks in a 2x1cm membrane*

LOL, I thought it was only my program where the perio department wear surgical bouffants and sterile gloves and then proceed to touch every non-sterile thing in the operatory when doing a gingival graft.

 

[BenignDMD]

LOL, I thought it was only my program where the perio department wear surgical bouffants and sterile gloves and then proceed to touch every non-sterile thing in the operatory when doing a gingival graft.

Clean-contaminated wounds are foreign to them.

 

[InformMe123]

can the lifestyle be cushy more than general dentistry?

 

[Bernie Sanders]

Do Oral surgeons or GPs get hotter chicks?
Thx

 

[Benedict Arnold]

How long would I need to train to sedate your kid safely and have the ability to intubate them or worst case scenario, cric or trach them? A weekend class do that for me?

I found this really amusing. I understand it was sarcasm. But it's really funny to me how all these "weekend classes" are popping up to train people in things they shouldn't be doing. Anesthesiologists go through 4 years of residency and a pediatric fellowship just to be properly trained in handling that type of anesthesia. Total of 5 years of training to be doing that versus a weekend... Amazing.

 

[gatorfan99]

I found this really amusing. I understand it was sarcasm. But it's really funny to me how all these "weekend classes" are popping up to train people in things they shouldn't be doing. Anesthesiologists go through 4 years of residency and a pediatric fellowship just to be properly trained in handling that type of anesthesia. Total of 5 years of training to be doing that versus a weekend... Amazing.

+1

I hate to sound pessimistic (hardcore optimist here) but forget specializing, you are better off becoming a lawyer (ambulance chaser) and going after all these "cowboys" and their tidal wave of screw ups (or worse, such as in cases involving things like sedation) in the future..

 

[gatorfan99]

"Just a little selfie before SCRUBBING IN for my big SURGERY today!"

*spends 90 minutes putting 30 interrupted 5-0 silks in a 2x1cm membrane*

Silk sutures are terrible... also membranes are usually secured with slings..

 

[vellnueve]

I do membranes with interrupteds often.

 

[DaleDoback]

+1

I hate to sound pessimistic (hardcore optimist here) but forget specializing, you are better off becoming a lawyer (ambulance chaser) and going after all these "cowboys" and their tidal wave of screw ups (or worse, such as in cases involving things like sedation) in the future..

My partner and I talk about this all the time. With the things we know, we should be lawyers against some super-dentists. We have a serial offender to our practice who only sends over a root in the sinus or a tooth in the infra temporal fossa or a BRONJ patient. When I get carpal tunnel and I can't practice, I'm going back to law school just to sue him.

 

[Sublimazing]

My partner and I talk about this all the time. With the things we know, we should be lawyers against some super-dentists. We have a serial offender to our practice who only sends over a root in the sinus or a tooth in the infra temporal fossa or a BRONJ patient. When I get carpal tunnel and I can't practice, I'm going back to law school just to sue him.

The most infuriating part is that if you confronted this habitual line crosser about these referrals, he most likely has the mentality that specialists exist to fix mistakes.