Why is PM&R easy to match especially if it's dubbed Plenty O Money and Relaxation?

[enigmaticspacedoggoboos]

Why is PM&R easy to match especially if it's dubbed Plenty O Money and Relaxation?

Especially when psych is more competitive?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[NecrotizingFasciitis]

I'd like to think it's because most people that become doctors don't do it for the money.

 

[nontrad981]

In a conversation with a surgery subspecialist, they told me many of their colleagues think it's beneath them. This was from someone who was in the ivy leagues their whole career so their viewpoint may be skewed, but it could help explain less competition from top students. The competitiveness of some specialties increases their attractiveness. And from what I hear, PM&R is getting more competitive.

 

[JB50]

Thanks for putting PMnR on my radar. Will be looking into it.

 

[DO2015CA]

Also it's plenty of money for the amount of relaxation you get but it's still not tons of money. Those that are willing to work will make way more elsewhere

 

[JB50]

Also it's plenty of money for the amount of relaxation you get but it's still not tons of money. Those that are willing to work will make way more elsewhere

"The median annual salary for clinical physiatrists — those directly assisting patients — is $224,000, according to the American Association of Medical Colleges."



Oh ok. I'll leave that right there.

 

[DO2015CA]

"The median annual salary for clinical physiatrists — those directly assisting patients — is $224,000, according to the American Association of Medical Colleges."



Oh ok. I'll leave that right there.

Now look at the median for say a gen surgeon

 

[JB50]

Now look at the median for say a gen surgeon

"In Medscape's 2014 Compensation Report, general surgeons fall slightly above the middle among all physicians, with average earnings of $295,000"

I mean, you seriously comparing PMnR to a surgeon, both in lifestyle AND salary?

That 225k as PMnR can actually be used and enjoyed, just saying.

 

[68PGunner]

Now look at the median for say a gen surgeon

Who wants to be a general surgeon? The hours are terrible and the surgeries are messy, unlike ENT and Plastics.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Why is PM&R easy to match especially if it's dubbed Plenty O Money and Relaxation?

Especially when psych is more competitive?

Its because no one knows jack about the field, even full on doctors don't even know what they do. The field is small and it is a hidden gem amongst medical students. Its not easier than psychiatry actually, it is around the same ballpark (if you are asking in terms of quality level of program then psychiatry is definitely tougher to match). The match rates for both are at 77% for DOs matching on the ACGME side, but COMLEX averages are higher for PM&R.

The whole plenty of money and relaxation is kinda a misnomer. You are making a decent amount of money for the amount of hours you work, but its not close to dermatology. However, you tack on a pain fellowship I could definitely see a PM&R doc easily clearing $300k at 45 hours a week.

 

[DO2015CA]

Who wants to be a general surgeon? The hours are terrible and the surgeries are messy, unlike ENT and Plastics.

Truth. i didn't wanna name an ultra competitive specialty that makes significantly more than pmr. Can do with gas or rads etc

 

[zero0]

Who wants to be a general surgeon? The hours are terrible and the surgeries are messy, unlike ENT and Plastics.

Random follow up, but shouldn't we change the name of general surgery to something like abdominal surgery at this point? Seems more appropriate now that it's been picked clean by specialists.

 

[68PGunner]

Random follow up, but shouldn't we change the name of general surgery to something like abdominal surgery at this point? Seems more appropriate now that it's been picked clean by specialists.

Pretty much. That's what you'll be doing all day as a general surgeon unless you work at a small community hospital.

 

[68PGunner]

Truth. i didn't wanna name an ultra competitive specialty that makes significantly more than pmr. Can do with gas or rads etc

GAS is $250K-300K/yr.
PMR is around 200-270K/yr. A pain fellowship would put you above $300K/yr.

 

[zero0]

Its because no one knows jack about the field, even full on doctors don't even know what they do. The field is small and it is a hidden gem amongst medical students. Its not easier than psychiatry actually, it is around the same ballpark (if you are asking in terms of quality level of program then psychiatry is definitely tougher to match). The match rates for both are at 77% for DOs matching on the ACGME side, but COMLEX averages are higher for PM&R.

The whole plenty of money and relaxation is kinda a misnomer. You are making a decent amount of money for the amount of hours you work, but its not close to dermatology. However, you tack on a pain fellowship I could definitely see a PM&R doc easily clearing $300k at 45 hours a week.

The real money in PMR has always been in pain. If you go that route, it's basically a 5 year derm residency.

 

[zero0]

GAS is $250K-300K/yr.
PMR is around 200-270K/yr. A pain fellowship would put you above $300K/yr.

Gas is way more th... Oh, I see you my gunner friend.

No, yeah, what he said.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Gas is way more th... Oh, I see you my gunner friend.

No, yeah, what he said.

Let's not forget that most pain fellowships are in anes... that dude really is a gunner! LOL

 

[vm26]

Why is PM&R easy to match especially if it's dubbed Plenty O Money and Relaxation?

Especially when psych is more competitive?

Take acronyms such as the ROAD and the one you mentioned with a grain of salt, not saying that its not possible but generally these days most are going to have to work to make dollars (even the dermatologist is going to have to see high volume of patients)...your geography and practice model will also influence these factors...with respect to your question, I think many med students have little exposure to PMR...I had exposure while I was a PT, primarily in rehab-facilities, not sure if these guys were making bank but the job seemed relatively low stress but this was also a long time ago so things may have changed...Pain management may pay well but you have to deal with Pain patients...also you are competing with pain docs from other specialties

 

[68PGunner]

Gas is way more th... Oh, I see you my gunner friend.

No, yeah, what he said.

Gas doesn't crank above $300K as a standard. If you think that I'm lying to you, you should check the Anes forum. If you make over $300K in Anes, you are working surgeon hours as in 60 hrs/wk.

 

[DO2015CA]

GAS is $250K-300K/yr.
PMR is around 200-270K/yr. A pain fellowship would put you above $300K/yr.

50k is still 50k

 

[68PGunner]

50k is still 50k

I mean a $50K difference is like a difference of 30-35K diff in net. At this point, I don't think the financial difference is that substantial for us to ignore other factors, like your personality matching w/ the field, your interest, amount of available free time, typical work condition, etc...

 

[IslandStyle808]

50k is still 50k

I'll put it this way, I'd rather work 40 hours a week and make $230 as a PM&R doc than 60 hours a week and make $300k as surgeon. All a matter of what your goals and priorities are.

 

[68PGunner]

I'll put it this way, I'd rather work 40 hours a week and make $230 as a PM&R doc than 60 hours a week and make $300k as surgeon. All a matter of what your goals and priorities are.

Student loan bro... Wait, we have loan forgiveness for that.

 

[Mad Jack]

50k is still 50k

Physiatrists work 669 less hours a year than general surgeons, on average. That's basically sixteen and three quarters weeks worth of vacation worth of hours, well worth the trade-off of 50k.

 

[DO2015CA]

Physiatrists work 669 less hours a year than general surgeons, on average. That's basically sixteen and three quarters weeks worth of vacation worth of hours, well worth the trade-off of 50k.

I was referring 50k for the gas but I agree

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I mean, you seriously comparing PMnR to a surgeon, both in lifestyle AND salary?

I agree. Put in the hours of surgery into PM&R and you probably end up making more money than the surgeons. working 35-40 hr/wk for 225k is a very good rate of return.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Why is PM&R easy to match especially if it's dubbed Plenty O Money and Relaxation?

Especially when psych is more competitive?

I have considered PM&R in the past since I like the neurology aspects and also would be interested in pain medicine. What it ultimately came down to is that I'm not as enthusiastic about MSK problems and just generally enjoy neurology problems a lot more. I think that's really what ends up happening with most people. Even though everyone does care about money, after all the work you put in, you end up doing what you enjoy most to earn it.

 

[Mad Jack]

I was referring 50k for the gas but I agree

Anesthesiologists are still working an average of 55 hours a week. That's 15-20 hours per week more than the average physiatrist.

 

[Scrubs101]

Can someone link me to the data showing average hours per week depending on specialty?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[zero0]

Anesthesiologists are still working an average of 55 hours a week. That's 15-20 hours per week more than the average physiatrist.

Using hours worked to compare specialties only gets you so far. 40 hours in the ED feels like 140 to me, meanwhile time in the OR always flies.

 

[Mad Jack]

Using hours worked to compare specialties only gets you so far. 40 hours in the ED feels like 140 to me, meanwhile time in the OR always flies.

20 extra hours at home tho... What I could do with those 20 hours.

 

[zero0]

20 extra hours at home tho... What I could do with those 20 hours.

Horrible things, I presume.

Point is, I'd encourage people to not get too wrapped up in the salary/work hours talk and wait until they get some firsthand experience in the respective fields. There's a reason general surgery remains relatively competitive despite being a complete ripoff in terms of $$$/hours/training. Some people just love that kind of stuff.

 

[Mad Jack]

Horrible things, I presume.

Point is, I'd encourage people to not get too wrapped up in the salary/work hours talk and wait until they get some firsthand experience in the respective fields. There's a reason general surgery remains relatively competitive despite being a complete ripoff in terms of $$$/hours/training. Some people just love that kind of stuff.

I guess I've just done so many terrible jobs in my life that I just expect everything I do to feel terrible given enough time.

And I really get the vibe a lot of surgeons really just like to suffer. That's just how they roll.

Point taken though. A lot of people might actually like to spend 60-70 hours a week in the hospital, though I'll never understand why.

 

[gallons]

cause many people are not attracted to it. For their own reasons.

 

[zero0]

I guess I've just done so many terrible jobs in my life that I just expect everything I do to feel terrible given enough time.

And I really get the vibe a lot of surgeons really just like to suffer. That's just how they roll.

Point taken though. A lot of people might actually like to spend 60-70 hours a week in the hospital, though I'll never understand why.

Surgeons are a weird bunch. I won't pretend to know what goes on in their heads. And you're probably right, everything gets old eventually, but if you go into a field because you genuinely enjoy it then you at least give yourself a chance of maybe liking your entire career. Idk just a thought.

 

[cliquesh]

Why is PM&R easy to match especially if it's dubbed Plenty O Money and Relaxation?

Especially when psych is more competitive?

Part of the reason is lack of student exposure. I don't even really know what PM&R docs do and I'm a pgy4. I think the same thing can be said about anesthesia and pathology since you have to go out of your way to gain exposure to those fields.

 

[cliquesh]

Can someone link me to the data showing average hours per week depending on specialty?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Medicine jobs are really flexible. I've seen jobs that pay 800k for 80hrs a week, 150k for 8 hrs a week, and 400k for 36 hrs. I think it would be hard to give an average since each individual job can be vastly different in terms of hours. I'm in anesthesia, by the way.

 

[68PGunner]

Medicine jobs are really flexible. I've seen jobs that pay 800k for 80hrs a week, 150k for 8 hrs a week, and 400k for 36 hrs. I think it would be hard to give an average since each individual job can be vastly different in terms of hours. I'm in anesthesia, by the way.

Is this is gas?

 

[cliquesh]

Is this is gas?

Yep. The 800k one required a pain fellowship. The other two examples required no fellowship.

 

[68PGunner]

Yep. The 800k one required a pain fellowship. The other two examples required no fellowship.

What's up with the gloom and doom in the Gas forum? Is it just propaganda in order to keep people from going into the specialty?

From pursuing that forum, I get that the job market for Gas nowadays is like $250-300K/yr while working 50 hrs/week.

 

[cliquesh]

What's up with the gloom and doom in the Gas forum? Is it just propaganda in order to keep people from going into the specialty?

From pursuing that forum, I get that the job market for Gas nowadays is like $250-300K/yr while working 50 hrs/week.

Don't know. That isn't my experience. Academic salaries seem to fall into that range for general anesthesia. Private practice seems 350k to 500k. One person in my class took an academic job for about $300k. No one else took anything less than $350k.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Pretty much. That's what you'll be doing all day as a general surgeon unless you work at a small community hospital.

Or a larger university affiliated hospital with a residency. Our general surgeons did plenty of abdominal stuff, but they did tons of thyroids, trachs, chest stuff (wedge bx, lobectomies, pleuradesis, etc), breast, etc. And this was not a small hospital. The small community hospital I worked at, the general surgeons did not do much more than choles and colons. The bigger stuff went elsewhere.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

What's up with the gloom and doom in the Gas forum? Is it just propaganda in order to keep people from going into the specialty?

From pursuing that forum, I get that the job market for Gas nowadays is like $250-300K/yr while working 50 hrs/week.

Sorry to quote you twice, but midlevel creep is real in anesthesiology. The small hospital I worked at had no anesthesiologists on staff. It was staffed entirely by CRNAs, and they were making bank. Where there are MDs and DOs, they are mostly supervising multiple rooms and handling the complex cases. I can see why there's some doom and gloom, but as always, it's probably a bit exaggerated.

 

[zero0]

Sorry to quote you twice, but midlevel creep is real in anesthesiology. The small hospital I worked at had no anesthesiologists on staff. It was staffed entirely by CRNAs, and they were making bank. Where there are MDs and DOs, they are mostly supervising multiple rooms and handling the complex cases. I can see why there's some doom and gloom, but as always, it's probably a bit exaggerated.

Yeah this is the real issue right here. CRNAs have independent practice rights in half the states now and things are particularly bad here in Virginia from what I've noticed. They let them do CT cases unsupervised here and a lot of surgeons seem to prefer working with them. It's madness!

 

[LutGholein]

Yeah this is the real issue right here. CRNAs have independent practice rights in half the states now and things are particularly bad here in Virginia from what I've noticed. They let them do CT cases unsupervised here and a lot of surgeons seem to prefer working with them. It's madness!

Which is why a lot of Anesthesiologist are telling some of the new folks to get a pain fellowship to differentiate yourself from the pack. At least the VA has not given CRNAs full independent rights(yet).

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Which is why a lot of Anesthesiologist are telling some of the new folks to get a pain fellowship to differentiate yourself from the pack. At least the VA has not given CRNAs full independent rights(yet).

It seems like in the military forums, mil med treats MDAs and CRNAs the same. I know at least in the Navy, anesthesia services on carriers are provided by CRNAs.

 

[zero0]

Which is why a lot of Anesthesiologist are telling some of the new folks to get a pain fellowship to differentiate yourself from the pack. At least the VA has not given CRNAs full independent rights(yet).

The VA thing was definitely a big win but it's still not the last we've heard of those pesky CRNAs. Gotta give some credit to the ASA for at least proving they're not totally inept.

Frankly, I'm not sold on the marketability of fellowships. It's only a plus if the group you're applying to happens to be looking for a fellow, otherwise it's just someone they have to pay extra and they might actually pass on you because of that. And like I said, CRNAs are already doing cardiac cases without any kind of fellowship. They can also do chronic pain management to some degree, depending on the state, and I doubt we've heard the last from them on that subject either. Seems risky to put off a year of salary just to subspecialize in an area CRNAs have already set their sights on. Regional seems pretty safe but you don't really need a fellowship for that to begin with. Idk part of me feels like the whole push for fellowships is just a scam to get more cheap labor.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

By in large this is incorrect. Out west it is mostly physician only groups. Same in my neck of the woods. This is most prevalent out east. The doom and gloom has been there for nearly half a century.

And your small hospital is the exception, not the rule, sorry bud.

Since I'm planning on going to med school and find anesthesiology a potential specialty, that's not something I'm sorry to hear. However, that was the case at the two university affiliated hospitals I worked/trained at. The CRNAs ran the case, and the MDAs came in for induction and sometimes at the end or to give the CRNA a break. This was on the East Coast, so that makes sense. Glad it isn't like that everywhere.


Also, that small hospital was in TX, where they have independent practice rights. It's probably not the only hospital in that state.

^Ah, your background proceeds you.

And, as someone who has multiple army/ navy/ air force physician family members you are incorrect. Maybe the navy, cause the navy treats physicians the worst, by far, out of any branch.

As someone who actually has first hand Navy med experience, I can tell you that there are only CRNAs aboard carriers. I've also heard from actual Navy anesthesiologists that they are treated the same, which is actually a blessing since you don't have to worry about supervising them and can just run your own room.

Again, I can't say anything about the rest of .mil, but I am actually in the Navy, so unless you're telling me everyone in Navy Medicine is lying to me for some strange reason and those CRNAs are actually docs, I'm going to assume I'm right in that regard.

 

[IslandStyle808]

The VA thing was definitely a big win but it's still not the last we've heard of those pesky CRNAs. Gotta give some credit to the ASA for at least proving they're not totally inept.

Frankly, I'm not sold on the marketability of fellowships. It's only a plus if the group you're applying to happens to be looking for a fellow, otherwise it's just someone they have to pay extra and they might actually pass on you because of that. And like I said, CRNAs are already doing cardiac cases without any kind of fellowship. They can also do chronic pain management to some degree, depending on the state, and I doubt we've heard the last from them on that subject either. Seems risky to put off a year of salary just to subspecialize in an area CRNAs have already set their sights on. Regional seems pretty safe but you don't really need a fellowship for that to begin with. Idk part of me feels like the whole push for fellowships is just a scam to get more cheap labor.

A lot of pain fellowships are ACGME accredited, which is leagues better than those non-ACGME ones (I believe one of radiology residents on here commented on a non-ACGME fellowship only paying $20k). You pretty much don't have much to lose with a pain fellowship but a lot more to gain. Its only a year and because its short you won't forget the skills you learned from your residency. Benefits still exceed the risks.

 

[zero0]

A lot of pain fellowships are ACGME accredited, which is leagues better than those non-ACGME ones (I believe one of radiology residents on here commented on a non-ACGME fellowship only paying $20k). You pretty much don't have much to lose with a pain fellowship but a lot more to gain. Its only a year and because its short you won't forget the skills you learned from your residency. Benefits still exceed the risks.

Completely agree. By all means, if your goal is to cash in while the pain train is still on track, then yeah it's well worth it. Tons of money to be made there if you can stomach the patient population, and that's a big IF. Personally, I'd just do EM at that point. Anyway, I was just saying don't count on a pain fellowship to save you from CRNAs in the future. The real future of gas is in periop imo.