Why is the A in PA stand for assistant?

[lawguil]

What about nurses? Should they be "older" as well? After all they participate in many of the same things that practitioners perform! How about a 20 year old nurse caring for a younger female/male. I think the points that everybody is making are valid, but irrelevant because people who are trained to a certain "entry level standard" are qualified regardless of age. Surely it could be awkward or create uncomfortable situations, foolishness, ect, however, could prove to be invaluable experience for the practitioner. If a person has an aptitude and is intellectual, I think the medical society would be crazy to overlook these candidates until they met some random age requirement.

Just an aside: I was stopped by what looked like a 20 year old State Trooper the other day (6 ft. 225lbs). I probably had 20 years on him, but I wasn't about to give him any ****..

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[50960]

Nurses carry out written medical orders, they do not practice independently, prescribe, write orders or make Tx decisions. That is the difference.

 

[liveandlearn]

ok.. as a 21 year old student who starts PA in the fall....

I think pscipsci said it perfectly.

"Training can make a competent practitioner, but without experience and maturity one will only be competent."

an entry level PA is only SUPPOSED to be competent... anything above competency is more than "required."

What it really comes down to is, do you think that all PAs have to be spectacularly perfect human beings or can they be 21 year olds...
we all try hard... and we are all new to being a PA at one point or another. After those of you who have finished look back you think it is impossible for a 21 year old but that is only in hindsite... i disagree.. I think age plays a huge part in maturity.. and yes, we would all like are providers to be the most mature individuals on the planet.. however, the fact is... we dont have enough providers... so we are accepting slightly less mature to fill the void.

It does not mean that a 21 year old is as good as a seasoned PA but they are as good as they need to be and likely only slightly behind a 30 year old with comparable experience. but i think everyone here's expectations are a little too high. there arent enough people that exist who fit your mold and want to go through the terrors of PA school. and why would they.... they have been through enough already.... right? the views of the profession on this board are wonderful in theory... but absolutely not possible in application and not in the best interest of the patient. a competent provider is all most people need. the rest is icing on the cake.

 

[lawguil]

Nurses carry out written medical orders, they do not practice independently, prescribe, write orders or make Tx decisions. That is the difference.

I agree!

 

[PACtoDOC]

What about nurses? Should they be "older" as well? After all they participate in many of the same things that practitioners perform! How about a 20 year old nurse caring for a younger female/male. I think the points that everybody is making are valid, but irrelevant because people who are trained to a certain "entry level standard" are qualified regardless of age. Surely it could be awkward or create uncomfortable situations, foolishness, ect, however, could prove to be invaluable experience for the practitioner. If a person has an aptitude and is intellectual, I think the medical society would be crazy to overlook these candidates until they met some random age requirement.

Just an aside: I was stopped by what looked like a 20 year old State Trooper the other day (6 ft. 225lbs). I probably had 20 years on him, but I wasn't about to give him any ****..

Nurses spend 90% of their training studying interpersonal relations and psychosomatic issues related to patient care. They have more real "people skills" taught to them than physicians or PA's, by a long shot. If you somehow make it through nursing school and are not able to deal with life issues and people as a whole, you probably went to a real shady school.

The medical model, however unfortunate, does not have included in it a great deal of time for these type of training. With physicians, it is thought that if after 7 years minimum of dealing with patients, that one should be ready for the practice of medicine and all it entails. The problem with a young PA is that they can easily be done with their training 5-8 years earlier than a physician. Its entirely plausible for a PA to be practicing by age 21-22, which is nuts.

The PA profession has taken a turn in who it accepts into its schools because of money, pure and simple. The original missino of the PA profession has little to do with the current education process. The AAPA/NCCPA gave that power up when all the schools were allowed to open up, and when admission standards increased, causing a reciprocal change in the quality of PA's as a whole. I personally don't even consider the PA profession today to be the same profession that was started in the 60's.

And if you think that we "need" all these providers like you say we do, then why do the statistics continue to show that PA's are preferring to work in the same areas where physicians are preferring to work? In fact, cash hungry docs are hiring PA's/NP's in urban and suburban areas because they make them a great deal of money, but don't think these docs couldn't hire a partner if they wanted. This creates bitterness between physicians and PA's, and I here this everyday in settings like anesthesia, surgery, ortho, derm, IM, and FM. If these providers are filling such a necessary role in healthcare, how come we still have as many underserved vacancies for PA's?

Thats why I said before that I support FMG's taking the PANCE exam in return for service in an underserved area. And honestly, it would not be a bad idea to require PA's to work in underserved areas for a couple of years before they could take those high paying suburban jobs where a doc could just as well fill the position.

 

[liveandlearn]

honestly... the reason the underserved areas are underserved in the first place is because nobody wants to be there. the rural areas with small populations have a small population for a reason. The inner city areas with high incidence of trauma/disease are that way because they are dangerous unhealthy places to live (comparatively). so the argument is silly that PAs should be serving in these areas more than any others. in any demographic of healthcare workers you are going to find close to the same spread throughout underserved areas etc. also, just because there are "still" unfilled jobs in underserved areas doesn't mean that PAs aren't the ones filling in the ones that are filled. and as far as "needing" PAs, as a physician you are the one's who have argued malpractice insurance is what is driving up healthcare.. If a PA can effectively make you more money as apposed to another doc who won't. Wouldn't that money you make benefit the patient by creating cheaper healthcare? at least by the AMA's THEORIES that would make sense.

your post is exactly something i would expect to hear from a physician.... its a post that protects the monopoly physicians have on medicine and yet another under the breathe "poor me" in that doctors could be filling the positions PAs are taking. If a doctor was NEEDED a doctor WOULD be there... but what are we finding out slowly but surely? doctors arent NEEDED as often as we thought. after all, you said it yourself, if 35% of all medical visits are psychosomatic in nature... and nurses recieve more training in that area.... why arent NURSES seeing 35% of your patients and that money that could be saved could go to the patient... saving them a lot of money.

 

[liveandlearn]

i do think it is funny how YOUR argument is that a 21 year old is too young to be in PA school because of maturity. If you think my statements are not credible at all. then be the mature one and dont respond to them, it is what I would do.

 

[RAMPA]

i do think it is funny how YOUR argument is that a 21 year old is too young to be in PA school because of maturity. If you think my statements are not credible at all. then be the mature one and dont respond to them, it is what I would do.

so why are you writing back to him?????????

 

[liveandlearn]

because i do think he IS credible......

 

[RAMPA]

because i do think he IS credible......

well he was a PA and now hes in medical school? what else do you want????????

 

[lawguil]

Nurses spend 90% of their training studying interpersonal relations and psychosomatic issues related to patient care. They have more real "people skills" taught to them than physicians or PA's, by a long shot. If you somehow make it through nursing school and are not able to deal with life issues and people as a whole, you probably went to a real shady school.

The medical model, however unfortunate, does not have included in it a great deal of time for these type of training. With physicians, it is thought that if after 7 years minimum of dealing with patients, that one should be ready for the practice of medicine and all it entails. The problem with a young PA is that they can easily be done with their training 5-8 years earlier than a physician. Its entirely plausible for a PA to be practicing by age 21-22, which is nuts.

The PA profession has taken a turn in who it accepts into its schools because of money, pure and simple. The original missino of the PA profession has little to do with the current education process. The AAPA/NCCPA gave that power up when all the schools were allowed to open up, and when admission standards increased, causing a reciprocal change in the quality of PA's as a whole. I personally don't even consider the PA profession today to be the same profession that was started in the 60's.

And if you think that we "need" all these providers like you say we do, then why do the statistics continue to show that PA's are preferring to work in the same areas where physicians are preferring to work? In fact, cash hungry docs are hiring PA's/NP's in urban and suburban areas because they make them a great deal of money, but don't think these docs couldn't hire a partner if they wanted. This creates bitterness between physicians and PA's, and I here this everyday in settings like anesthesia, surgery, ortho, derm, IM, and FM. If these providers are filling such a necessary role in healthcare, how come we still have as many underserved vacancies for PA's?

Thats why I said before that I support FMG's taking the PANCE exam in return for service in an underserved area. And honestly, it would not be a bad idea to require PA's to work in underserved areas for a couple of years before they could take those high paying suburban jobs where a doc could just as well fill the position.

Interesting! Obviously you feel that PA's are being used in a way that they weren’t "originally" designed. They are being used, rural or urban, to take the place of a physicians because they are cheaper, but not necessarily needed because of lack of available practitioners.

It suggests that PA's have morphed into a very practical practitioner who can be used in a variety of settings competently. I suspect that it isn't uncommon that professions change from the original design, especially when there is a market for the product. I guess this is the case of the PA.
As far as 21 year old PA's - I personally don't have a problem with them. Surely it will present some challenges, but if they have the appropriate training, supervision, and have passed all the exams that indicate that they are competent practitioners, it would be crazy to overlook there skills. I'm not sure how to accurately measure maturity, but society has put forth a great deal of effort to measure competency based on knowledge and skills. The PA profession is no exception.

It is interesting you bring to the table the program that you attended in the 60's. You didn't say this but you suggest that what you went through as part of your PA training is better than today's. Obviously a hard thing to measure. However, if you are anything like me, I always have this subconscious idea that what I did in my training and schooling is better than what other people have done/did/doing. It really has nothing to do with reality though (in my case). It’s more me thinking that my experiences are more valuable than anybody else’s. My understanding is that this is very common. Just some thoughts by lawguil

 

[bguman]

No PA in the country could handle that independently and they know it.

Clearly, making such an absolute statement proves you're myopic. No PA in the country? Give me a break! lol

 

[Nady1344]

I've been reading these posts for a while and I felt the need to respond.
Physician Assistant is a career choice that many of us have taken. Many classmates of mine took the MCAT and scored well, had good grades and still decided upon becoming a Physician Assistant. The name is what it is. There is confusion when presenting yourself to the patient because the patient does not understand your job position, or believes that you are a medical assistant. There needs to be more education about our profession. Many PA friendly hospitals have done this which has helped with helping patients understand the scope of our profession and that they could see us if the doctor is unavailable, or that we can be the first person they see during a consult. We can diagnose, prescribe, and treat. The purpose of our profession is not to do the scut work that doctors leave behind. We are their to assist, but also to handle situations on our own.
Whether the name changes or not, the problem is patient education of our profession. This needs to be addressed.

The training that we receive is very different depending on what school you decide to attend. Some schools allow PA students to do full cadaver dissections, while others only let you work on bodies already pre dissected. My school had medical school professors teach us cardiology, immunology, peds, ER, hem/onc etc. We were given the same notes as were the medical students and had to learn the same material. This does not make us equal to medical students because of the vast amount of classes and information that they need to learn to become physicians, but we are taught under a medical model and need to learn just as much about each disease process. Every school is again different some lasting 24-36 months, some handing out master degrees and others associate degrees. This causes a discrepancy in our profession that also needs to be addressed. In our patient's mind how can a PA with a masters degree be equivalent to a PA with an associate degree.

The profession in my mind needs to be more united. We need to really find a way to make things more uniform not only in the education that is received in each school, but the degree that is awarded, and the pre-reqs needed to enter school.

I love the career that I choose. I am happy with my choice. For pre-pa students, you need to really and truly want to be a PA because it is hard work, it does take a lot of dedication, but you need to truly want to be a PA. There can't be a debate in your mind between medical school and PA school. Medical school is a completely different ball game, and you need to be passionate about it. i have the greatest respect for medical students and physicians, but please realize that a PA can do a great deal of work. I want to do surgery, and I know that I will only be able to assist, but I want to be able to be in the operating room even in difficult cases and be able to assist. I do not want to just work on the floor, and do pre and post op visits in clinic. Every surgical PA I know has been happy and has had a good division of their time between surgery, rounds, and clinic.

Anyways, sorry for this long post. There is a place for everyone wanting to enter the medical field. Everyone just needs to understand what they want to do and if they would be happy doing that particular job.

 

[guetzow]

"Assistant" is what makes us more marketable, than say, a nurse "Practitioner". It plays into the psyche of the doctor who absolutely must (Must must must) be top dog. Doubt you this?... Merely observe the tone of Dr B's numerous posts. This attitude plays to our collective "Advantage". Play it to the hilt...