Why is the American MD so long?
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Wat? We were discussing the SAT...
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Da fuq?
Right I'm not asking for your opinion about IQ tests(which I disagree with), but rather your statement about test taking skills/ aptitude for exams?
I don't rightly understand the difference between aptitude for exams and intelligence, sure no test is a perfect measure of all aspects of intelligence, however a test whether that a test on a paper or an oral examination or perhaps just solving a puzzle does measure some kind of aptitude.
Also incase you reply, please say more about true intelligence and how we might go about measuring it.
Honestly, I mostly use the term to avoid IQ discussions, because that is a black hole of 'No Good Answers'. This is the first time that strategy has backfired
If you do want my opinion on the matter, though, I would say that there is no good quantitative way of measuring 'true intelligence', and thus we have measures such as IQ and SATs.
I think it is a reasonable supposition that intelligence is necessary for exam-taking proficiency. Thus, a positive test (aka high score) is an indicator of intelligence. However, we have no method, as of yet, of demonstrating that people who perform poorly on those measures lack intelligence. It is a system which is designed to have few false positives, but may have false negatives. In fact, we know it has false negatives as there are some situations (ESL, learning disabilities) where people score poorly until the specific impediment is addressed. Thus, given that we KNOW that there are limitations on the utility of tests to measure intelligence, I prefer to stick to terms which better describe those limit of our assessment.
You lost me.
Aaaaand another slightly interesting thread doomed.
I think this makes the whole thing mute. Besides the fact that American society is quite ageist (young people can't be good doctors etc), there is no way that would occur. The government would never subsidize medical education because we're broke. On top of that there is quite a bit of other educational reforms that are needed and medical education is far down on that list (if it's even there at all) as a priority.
Although you did mention about getting paid 80k a year is fine for you and it seems based on the pessimism I see about the future medical climate, you may get that salary. Now the debt free part, I doubt it 🙁.
I picked 80k because anything lower and I'd have started one of those "you are naive" vs "privileged people don't realize how little you can live on!" debates..which are entertaining and I've participated in my fair share, to be sure, but I'm too tired today. Honestly, as long as I have a steady job and as little debt as possible, I don't need much of a salary. I made it out of uGrad with zero debt, and I'm slowly coming to terms with the reality that that is not an option for medical school.
Investment banking. That's why those guys are jerks.
Some people are just REALLY good at standardized multiple choice tests - I'm sure you've met one or two of these people. Some people simply panic during tests. Both of these people might be equally intelligent in a classroom or clinical setting but end up with different standardized test scores.
*woosh*
Why not work in a clinical setting for 2 years (EMT, etc) than apply and attend physician assistant school? Far less debt, a steady job and an income of about $80K/yr.
Ouch, that'st going to leave a mark
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Definitely not at the ridiculous prices medical schools are charging these days, esp. for the first 2 years.
Probably bc most of them are at low-tier universities and medical schools.
And then there's Rice/Baylor, Northwestern, Pittsburgh, CalTech/UCSD, WashU....
Most schools overall are not in the top 20.... I suspect that top schools are proportionally represented on that list.
Anyone who thinks that the traditional path to MD is too long can choose, in HS, to shoot for one of these programs. The competition is fierce and most are very expensive (schools have no incentive to give you merit aid for med school if you've already committed; it is much like early decision for undergrad.) Many of these schools are realizing that American students are not emotionally prepared for medical school at 19 or 20 and are urging students in these programs to take an additional year of undergrad or a masters before proceeding to the MD curriculum.
Interestingly, the bulk of the issues that come up in faculty/administration discussions of M1 and M2 students who are struggling is not over academics but around issues of professionalism and the meeting of obligations. Too many American students in their teens and early 20s are in an extended state of adolescence, helicopter parents and all. Our culture does not lend itself well to a 6 year program right out of HS but these programs, born in the 1960s have survived at some schools.
What "issues of professionalism" and the "meeting of obligations" are issues in MS-1/MS-2? Are you talking about BA/MD students, or med students in general? Just curious. Usually this is heard in MS-3 rotations.
You're asking nerds online whether or not they had fun in college. 😛
M1 and M2 students in general are expected to show up when something is described as "mandatory". They are expected to be prompt, not tardy. They are expected to notify someone if they will not be where they are expected to be when they are expected to be there. With clinical exposure now moving into the period that was previously "pre-clinical" we have M3 issues in M1 and M2.
In my experience students coming right from college have more issues in this regard than those who are non-trad and had full time experience in the real world before attending med school.
I think this is the #1 reason America doesn't and can't (at least yet) have the shortened MD program that many other countries do. Someone else on this thread mentioned high schools focusing on socializing, which is the similar argument. From what I've experienced, teens and young adults in many other countries are on average more mature emotionally, intellectually, and professionally. There are many reasons for this I can discuss if anyone is interested, but the main one seems to be the giant safety bubble in which America cultivates its citizens, which is both beautiful and destructive. Perhaps we could have the 5 or 6 year MD in the states someday if we reconsider the adolescent culture, but at the rate things are currently going in pop media, the premed/med track can only get longer.
Edit: not to be up on any high horse, I'm definitely including myself in this bubble
Gotcha. Yes, I think when you've had premeds who've never had to hold a "real job" before, for them tardiness is not a big deal. After all, they're gracing you with the honor of being in their presence which they've earned with high GPAs and high MCAT scores.
Tardiness happens in large auditorium college classes. So for M1/M2 students they still consider those mandatory activities as a "class". Some may still feel that was for M3 - but then you usually have a resident to bark at them, at which time the student feels like residents are being "malignant" and go run and cry to their Dean of Student Affairs about how mean those residents and attendings are being.
I think it's other way around, nerds probably have the most fun of their lives in college, of course you might not call it that.😉
how so? College fun is associated with being drunk and/or associating with the opposite sex. Anything else isn't really relevant to college generally.
Speak for yerself
Because it's not about the money. Debt is something I want to avoid, but I am not going into medicine for the money, and I am not staying out of it for the debt.
The 'steady job and reasonable salary' describes my minimums - they are not my goal, but they are the things I am not automatically willing to sacrifice in order to get my goal.
I am working in a clinical setting, and I have seen the difference between a PA's job and a physician's, and I can tell you with 100% certainty that I would be far less happy in their shoes than the the doctor's.
I'd be interested to see what the pre-meds posting in this thread think once they have gone through the system themselves...come back after residency when youre paying $300,000+ loans (pre-med + medical school) plus interest..i bet many of you will then realize that the entire process of medical education system is highly inefficent, too expensive and AT LEAST 4 years of it is not at all relevant and least likely to contribute to your overall training as a doctor (med school + residency + fellowship are more than sufficient for both education/training AND weeding out the ones that can't make it)..these feelings will be exacerbated when you see IMGs as your attendings or your co-residents or fellows who have no debt from medical school, are a few years younger than you, and scored 260s on their USMLE all without ever taking MCAT, organic chemistry, general chemistry or physics and in the end will be earning the same exact salary as you but saving much more because they dont have to pay $1500/month to the loan agency..when i was a pre-med i wasn't even thinking about it because i hadn't gone through it so I was naive to it, i just wanted to get into med school...
i went to a top university that emphasized liberal arts and was fortunate to get into a top medical school, but let's see people get an actual job majoring in liberal arts education (some people have bought into the BS that it makes you a well-rounded person, but it won't feed your family..read books, read the newspaper, if you want to be a well-rounded person without the $200,000 debt), the student loan issue is the next bubble to burst with students taking on liberal arts education and not having the skills needed in a very tight job market, more and more have to live at home with their parents after undergrad who themselves are struggling in this economy, but those loans still need to be paid (remember student loans can NEVER be forgiven even in bankruptcy), once those start defaulting in mass it'll be the second wave of the economic recession..we're lucky in that regard because our loans get deferred because loan agencies know that doctors are low risk borrowers and will be able to pay it with their salary so they want that debt to be accruing as much interest as possible (thats why banks offer special "doctors loans" for residents to buy their dream house on a $50,000 salary...look it up)
i went to a top university that emphasized liberal arts and was fortunate to get into a top medical school, but let's see people get an actual job majoring in liberal arts education (some people have bought into the BS that it makes you a well-rounded person, but it won't feed your family..read books, read the newspaper, if you want to be a well-rounded person without the $200,000 debt), the student loan issue is the next bubble to burst with students taking on liberal arts education and not having the skills needed in a very tight job market, more and more have to live at home with their parents after undergrad who themselves are struggling in this economy, but those loans still need to be paid (remember student loans can NEVER be forgiven even in bankruptcy), once those start defaulting in mass it'll be the second wave of the economic recession..we're lucky in that regard because our loans get deferred because loan agencies know that doctors are low risk borrowers and will be able to pay it with their salary so they want that debt to be accruing as much interest as possible (thats why banks offer special "doctors loans" for residents to buy their dream house on a $50,000 salary...look it up)
I effing hate American adolescent culture. I hated it even more when it was being applied to me. The lack of responsibilities comes hand in hand with being completely untrusted to care for yourself, ever...which turns everything into 'can I get away with this' even when it's something simple and which on the surface should not be rebellious - such as going out to lunch, or getting off the schoolbus at a different stop, or riding your bike instead of being driven everywhere by adults. And yes, these are all things which I got in MAJOR trouble for, which is insane. I got suspended for riding my bike to school, and told to stop being so rebellious. I missed a visit to a friend's because my mother didn't think to write her freaking 17yr old daughter a note to get off the bus 5 stops early (my friend was 18 and had to write themselves a note to then get off at my place). And parents had to come into the principal's office in person to sign forms allowing seniors to go off-campus for lunch, even if they were 18.I think this is the #1 reason America doesn't and can't (at least yet) have the shortened MD program that many other countries do. Someone else on this thread mentioned high schools focusing on socializing, which is the similar argument. From what I've experienced, teens and young adults in many other countries are on average more mature emotionally, intellectually, and professionally. There are many reasons for this I can discuss if anyone is interested, but the main one seems to be the giant safety bubble in which America cultivates its citizens, which is both beautiful and destructive. Perhaps we could have the 5 or 6 year MD in the states someday if we reconsider the adolescent culture, but at the rate things are currently going in pop media, the premed/med track can only get longer.
Edit: not to be up on any high horse, I'm definitely including myself in this bubble
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But, of course; I wouldn't expect anything less from you.
Bolded and underlined for emphasis.
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hmmmm?
It's hard to gauge my tone based on writing sometimes. I was agreeing with you in that 80k a year debt free would be great, but the government would never subsidize medical education. I was also saying that based on the future medical climate, it's seems like there's downward pressure on all physician salaries, but medical school debt it rising with no end in sight. Also since it's a seller's market, there is no incentive to lower tuition because all 40k+ applicants will attend medical school no matter the cost.
I know - I was saying that I am slowly getting used to the fact that med school debt is blowing up faster than Harry Potter's Aunt Marge, and that I will be alright with the net lower salary of $80k pay + debt payments.
The system will break down at some point, but as long as I recognize that fact and am still OK with it going in, that's fine. It's only disastrous when it's an unforeseen surprise!
I honestly love so many of your quotes 🙂
I had this debate while ago w/ someone in international education.
It really is a luxury that we get 4 years of university in the USA. School is fun, you get to explore things and really find what you like. Something like 90% of freshman year premeds don't go to medical school. I was a non trad that didn't even really think about medical school until I was in my mid 20's and I was happy I wasn't locked out of it as I would be in some other countries.
The downside is the cost and the cost to society of having less working physicians. To me there is no doubt you can learn what you need for medical school in 2 years of undergrad in terms of academics. The study habits of medical students compared to study habits I observed in undergrad are generally Great to Outstanding, that takes awhile to get and students need to be exceptionally mature and have a professional demeanor which is rare for 20 year olds. This is fine though and I had some of the best times of my life being irresponsible in my teens and early 20s, things would have to get worse for it to be normal to take that from kids/young adults in my opinion.
It is good that both paths are available. Medical school is so competitive to get into. I do think part of it is from a med school admissions standpoint if you could have someone with 2-3 years of undergrad or someone with 4 + a masters (even though TONS of unnecessary information is learned) who would you want? That is why the fast track programs are so competitive.
Most people want their professionals to have more and more training to get jobs. I'm interested to see where this trend goes but I don't know what would break it other than a massive influx in available jobs that are currently competitive.
It really is a luxury that we get 4 years of university in the USA. School is fun, you get to explore things and really find what you like. Something like 90% of freshman year premeds don't go to medical school. I was a non trad that didn't even really think about medical school until I was in my mid 20's and I was happy I wasn't locked out of it as I would be in some other countries.
The downside is the cost and the cost to society of having less working physicians. To me there is no doubt you can learn what you need for medical school in 2 years of undergrad in terms of academics. The study habits of medical students compared to study habits I observed in undergrad are generally Great to Outstanding, that takes awhile to get and students need to be exceptionally mature and have a professional demeanor which is rare for 20 year olds. This is fine though and I had some of the best times of my life being irresponsible in my teens and early 20s, things would have to get worse for it to be normal to take that from kids/young adults in my opinion.
It is good that both paths are available. Medical school is so competitive to get into. I do think part of it is from a med school admissions standpoint if you could have someone with 2-3 years of undergrad or someone with 4 + a masters (even though TONS of unnecessary information is learned) who would you want? That is why the fast track programs are so competitive.
Most people want their professionals to have more and more training to get jobs. I'm interested to see where this trend goes but I don't know what would break it other than a massive influx in available jobs that are currently competitive.
I had a lot of fun in college. The stereotypical kind of fun
Inb4 student calls me a slut again. Trolol
The last thing I would ever want is to return to the American education system.
At my university I can push three semesters through a year and graduate with a 5 year bsc pharm in 3 years and 3 months. Total cost? 5k a semester, or $50,000. My GI Bill pays every penny, and I will have collected almost $60,000 in housing allowance payments (thank you US Army.)
If I decide I don't like being a pharmacist in a clinical or retail setting, I can change gears within two more years. My degree (licenciatura) will qualify as a masters in the European Framework (300 ects credits,) and I can apply for essentially free Phd programs all across Europe. There, a Phd can be completed in two years and is entirely research and seminars. No pesky and useless classes; just responsibility.
If, after I finish with all of this (5 years 3 months,) I decide I want to be a doctor I can attend a four year program in Poland for 10k a year, and practice anywhere in Europe. Shoot for a residency in the UK or Switzerland and I will be staring down 45-60 hours a week as a resident and more than enough money to pay off the medical school. I won't be a slave like American doctors.
So, using Latin America and Europe I could be an Rph, Phd, MD in their first year of residency within 9 years with NO DEBT.
At the 3 year 3 months mark I can stop and become a pharmacist if I like that career. Decent income. Better if I save up and start my own pharmacy.
At the 5 year 3 months mark I can stop and work in research or academia as an Rph/Phd if I like that career better. Decent income.
At the 9 year 3 months mark I can find myself in my first year of residency, making less than the previous two career opportunities, but with much much more potential in the future (I.E. cardiology, anesthesiology, radiology, etc...)
That's not to say that I cannot take time in between to expand my horizons, make some money, buy some income property, etc... I have the rest of my life to enjoy, take my time, and change careers if I feel like it. I only live once, and I'm not obsessed with piling up millions of dollars for old age. That's just ridiculous. Those piles of cash own't keep your corpse warm in the grave. No one knows if they will live to be old, and I certainly don't want to just sit around and soak up my savings. I want to work till I die. The last four years I spent on early retirement (medical disability,) from the military have driven me nuts. A person NEEDS stuff to do, and to keep their mind busy.
There is no feasible way I could have this kind of path ahead of me if I had stayed in the American educational system.
That's my $0.02.
At my university I can push three semesters through a year and graduate with a 5 year bsc pharm in 3 years and 3 months. Total cost? 5k a semester, or $50,000. My GI Bill pays every penny, and I will have collected almost $60,000 in housing allowance payments (thank you US Army.)
If I decide I don't like being a pharmacist in a clinical or retail setting, I can change gears within two more years. My degree (licenciatura) will qualify as a masters in the European Framework (300 ects credits,) and I can apply for essentially free Phd programs all across Europe. There, a Phd can be completed in two years and is entirely research and seminars. No pesky and useless classes; just responsibility.
If, after I finish with all of this (5 years 3 months,) I decide I want to be a doctor I can attend a four year program in Poland for 10k a year, and practice anywhere in Europe. Shoot for a residency in the UK or Switzerland and I will be staring down 45-60 hours a week as a resident and more than enough money to pay off the medical school. I won't be a slave like American doctors.
So, using Latin America and Europe I could be an Rph, Phd, MD in their first year of residency within 9 years with NO DEBT.
At the 3 year 3 months mark I can stop and become a pharmacist if I like that career. Decent income. Better if I save up and start my own pharmacy.
At the 5 year 3 months mark I can stop and work in research or academia as an Rph/Phd if I like that career better. Decent income.
At the 9 year 3 months mark I can find myself in my first year of residency, making less than the previous two career opportunities, but with much much more potential in the future (I.E. cardiology, anesthesiology, radiology, etc...)
That's not to say that I cannot take time in between to expand my horizons, make some money, buy some income property, etc... I have the rest of my life to enjoy, take my time, and change careers if I feel like it. I only live once, and I'm not obsessed with piling up millions of dollars for old age. That's just ridiculous. Those piles of cash own't keep your corpse warm in the grave. No one knows if they will live to be old, and I certainly don't want to just sit around and soak up my savings. I want to work till I die. The last four years I spent on early retirement (medical disability,) from the military have driven me nuts. A person NEEDS stuff to do, and to keep their mind busy.
There is no feasible way I could have this kind of path ahead of me if I had stayed in the American educational system.
That's my $0.02.
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