why not just be called eye surgeons?

[EYESURG]

I believe you are in error sir. I have a friend who has his DDS and is attending Ohio State for his OMFS residency--4 to 6 years. He deals with facial trauma and as a matter of fact when he is finished he will be Dr. so and so DDS OMFS (Oral Maxillo Facial Surgeon) or for short Oral Surgeon..He is on call for facial trauma. The OMFS's I know do oral surgery so I don't know where you are getting your information from. They are listed as "Oral Surgeons" lol...... As a matter of fact another friend of mine who did his residency at Cook County hospital is on call for facial trauma every week----car accidents, gun shot wounds, crushing injuries, etc....they call him at 2:00 in the morning to fix the problem.....Where are you getting your info from?

I don't post much on here, but I believe that labeling yourself as a "future doctor" is misleading. Unfortunately, i think you know that it is misleading to most patients and you still do it. You know that when patients say they want an eye doctor they are actually referring to a medical eye doctor. When you stop misleading patients then I believe you have the right to "talk objectivley." Very unfortunate to see people like that.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[futuredoctorOD]

Before you start attacking people on this board, why don't you stop misleading people by calling yourself an Eye Doctor. You are not a doctor and you will never be until you get proper education like going to medical school. FutureConOD.

You are being childish....I am a pre-optometry student in the application process to eventually become and eyedoctorOD.....OD are eye doctors (ask Dr. Doan)---so back off......

 

[Perzian]

I believe you are in error sir. I have a friend who has his DDS and is attending Ohio State for his OMFS residency--4 to 6 years. He deals with facial trauma and as a matter of fact when he is finished he will be Dr. so and so DDS OMFS (Oral Maxillo Facial Surgeon) or for short Oral Surgeon..He is on call for facial trauma. The OMFS's I know do oral surgery so I don't know where you are getting your information from. They are listed as "Oral Surgeons" lol...... As a matter of fact another friend of mine who did his residency at Cook County hospital is on call for facial trauma every week----car accidents, gun shot wounds, crushing injuries, etc....they call him at 2:00 in the morning to fix the problem.....Where are you getting your info from?

Just to prove to you that you don't know what you're talking about...
http://dental.columbia.edu/OMS/OMS_Res2.html

Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery Residency ProgramAt New York-Presbyterian Hospital
Columbia University Medical Center
The oral and maxillofacial surgery residency program at NYPH/Columbia University
Medical Center Campus is designed to provide the resident with a solid foundation in the
specialty that meets the requirements of the Commission of Dental Accreditation.
During the six-year program, residents will obtain the M.D. degree from the Faculty of
Physicians and Surgeons of Columbia University, and in addition to training in oral and
maxillofacial surgery, will complete one year in general surgery at New York-
Presbyterian Hospital.
Our graduates are well prepared for either a career as a community-based practitioner or
in academics. To promote a career in academics, residents participate in teaching predoctoral
dental students, participate in several multi-disciplinary conferences, and have
the opportunity to engage in research.
Application process:
Applicants should possess a bachelor’s degree and must be a graduate of either an
American or Canadian dental school accredited by the Commission of Dental
Accreditation of the American Dental Association prior to the start of the program.

The yearly breakdown is as follows:

Year I - PGY1 Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery - 9 Months
Anesthesia 3 Months
Year II - Medical School
Year III - Medical SchoolYear IV - PGY1 General Surgery Residency
Year V - Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery
Year VI - Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery

So let me summarize for you... for a dentist to do oral surgery, they must go to medical school and get their M.D.

 

[EYESURG]

You are being childish....I am a pre-optometry student in the application process to eventually become and eyedoctorOD.....OD are eye doctors (ask Dr. Doan)---so back off......

I don't post much on here, but I believe that labeling yourself as a "future doctor" is misleading. Unfortunately, i think you know that it is misleading to most patients and you still do it. You know that when patients say they want an eye doctor they are actually referring to a medical eye doctor. When you stop misleading patients then I believe you have the right to "talk objectivley." Very unfortunate to see people like that.

 

[futuredoctorOD]

All ODs do not understand because they've never worked with sick patients, and I feel that I must reiterate this point again and again. Please read, please think, and then post if you have really thought about the following.

To do surgery requires more than technical 'know-how'. Being a surgeon requires managing the whole patient and knowing when to cut and when to hold back. This can only be gained by:

1) Managing many, many thousands of surgical patients is a requirement to becoming a surgeon. I spoke to an Oklahoma optometrist yesterday during lunch. She said her laser training involved classes, labs, etc... She also assisted in pterygium surgery. I then asked her, does she agree that laser surgery requires knowing how to manage glaucoma patients surgically? And that this can only be done by co-managing thousands of glaucoma patients with faculty? She agreed. Then she understood why her 4 patients a day in optometry school where she spent 1 hour examining them each is truly inadequate for her to make the call when patients need laser surgery, although she 'technically' is familiar with the surgical procedure.

2) Even 'simple surgery' may require your internal medicine training. I recently did a simple skin repair on a post-MOHS patient on oculoplastics. We admitted the patient for 24 hour observation so he could get a wound vac. I get a call at 5 AM that he has coffee ground hematemesis (how many ODs know how to manage this?). Medical doctors know excactly where I am going with this. I come in and he had another episode of 500 cc of bloody hematemesis. He has a history of cardiac disease and s/p stenting of his heart. How many ODs know how to manage this?

ODs will start crying out... call 911 or internal medicine. I'm sorry, but the patient is admitted in the hospital with YOU as the attending. Medicine is not going to rush over. I called medicine, and they couldn't come and told me to stabilize the patient.

How many ODs know what to do next?

I took orthostatics, and he was hypotensive. I started two large bore IVs. Started IVF. Took a CBC and type and cross. His hematocrit was in the low 20s. I started transfusing PRBCs. I stopped his BP meds. I passed a nasogastric tube and was able to flush his stomache clean. He had a slow bleed in the duodenum from a gastric ulcer identified after GI scoped him two days later.

Do you undertand why surgical outcome data is useless? There's more to it than technical know-how. I can train my son to suture up a graft on a MOHS patient. However, can I teach my son the algorithm to diagnose, manage, and treat an already cardiac compromised patient with a GI bleed?

Ophthalmologists and optometrists can learn from my experience.

1) Ophthalmologists, being Eye Physicians AND Surgeons, do NOT forget your medicine background. Study hard and work hard during medical school and internship. Medical internship (thus medical school) is the one barrier to prevent ODs entry into surgical ophthalmology. It's been four years since I managed an upper GI bleed; however, I was comfortable and knew what to do promptly.

2) Optometrists, being a surgeon is more than knowing how to cut and suture. The above example demonstrates how a 'simple skin repair' could have ended up with a dead patient in less than 6 hours. Low crit -> heart attack -> stroke -> shock -> dead in a matter of hours.

Today 10:55 AM from Deek to me.....
Deek

"You are not a doctor and you will never be until you get proper education like going to medical school. FutureConOD.?

This is exactly the kind of arrogance I was talking about from some of the OMD's on here......Why don't you tell him that OD's are eye doctors....a lot of your cohorts on here really think that they are not.......ridiculous.

thanks Dr. Doan

 

[Perzian]

FutureOD:

Your original post today started with me... and u said that DDS are "OMFS" and they don't need M.D.'s... I just proved to you that they do need to go to medical school.

So lay off Deek and acknowledge when you're wrong.

I don't like picking on little kids. You need to understand that you're younger than most people on here. Majority of us are older than you and have completed more schooling. So show some respect...

Instead of coming on here and arguing with people, why don't you go and open your books and study... that's more helpful for you.

 

[futuredoctorOD]

Your response is arrogant and unresonable........Optometrists are Eye doctors just like Podiatrists are foot doctors and so on.......I am not wasting any more of time replying to you.........

I don't post much on here, but I believe that labeling yourself as a "future doctor" is misleading. Unfortunately, i think you know that it is misleading to most patients and you still do it. You know that when patients say they want an eye doctor they are actually referring to a medical eye doctor. When you stop misleading patients then I believe you have the right to "talk objectivley." Very unfortunate to see people like that.

 

[futuredoctorOD]

Your response is arrogant and unresonable........Optometrists are Eye doctors just like Podiatrists are foot doctors and so on.......I am not wasting any more of time replying to you.........

It is unresonable OMD's like you (not most of them) that will nspire me to lobby and lobby and lobby for scope expansion..I will send my referrals to your counterparts that are resonable and not arrogant, haughty, and elitist. Have a nice day and good luck.

 

[futuredoctorOD]

FutureOD:

Your original post today started with me... and u said that DDS are "OMFS" and they don't need M.D.'s... I just proved to you that they do need to go to medical school.

So lay off Deek and acknowledge when you're wrong.

I don't like picking on little kids. You need to understand that you're younger than most people on here. Majority of us are older than you and have completed more schooling. So show some respect...

Instead of coming on here and arguing with people, why don't you go and open your books and study... that's more helpful for you.

I agree..........

 

[futuredoctorOD]

FutureOD:

Your original post today started with me... and u said that DDS are "OMFS" and they don't need M.D.'s... I just proved to you that they do need to go to medical school.

So lay off Deek and acknowledge when you're wrong.

I don't like picking on little kids. You need to understand that you're younger than most people on here. Majority of us are older than you and have completed more schooling. So show some respect...

Instead of coming on here and arguing with people, why don't you go and open your books and study... that's more helpful for you.

I am 31 years old!

 

[JMK2005]

Your original post today started with me... and u said that DDS are "OMFS" and they don't need M.D.'s... I just proved to you that they do need to go to medical school.

From what I understand, not all OMFS program require you to get an MD.

 

[MSHell]

Someone in my family was mislead by an "optometric physician" - had a partially detached retina and OD said it was nothing. Patient thought he was seeing someone with medical training. He also asked prior to app't if his insurance was accepted - answer: yes. However, after the app't, he was informed that his insurance was not accepted. So much for "optometric physician" being used for insurance purposes.

Finally he patient went to optho and received appropriate treatment. (full recovery)

Moral of the story: go to an optho if you see floaties.

This isn't about a turf war, this is about appropriate medical care and knowing where to find it. False advertising is not cool and using the word "physician" to dupe the lay public into seeing ODs is wrong.

Are ODs bound by the Hyppocratic Oath? How much do they pay in malpractice insurance?

 

[vanelo]

I don't post much on here, but I believe that labeling yourself as a "future doctor" is misleading. Unfortunately, i think you know that it is misleading to most patients and you still do it. You know that when patients say they want an eye doctor they are actually referring to a medical eye doctor. When you stop misleading patients then I believe you have the right to "talk objectivley." Very unfortunate to see people like that.

Beautiful

I couldnt have said it better!!! You are my new best friend in the forums!!!

 

[JR]

I for one think this thread is a great educational resource for future OMDs. I think it clearly shows the real agenda of some current/future ODs in regards to scope expansion, surgical privileges, etc. I hope this discussion will make others realize that every future OMD has a responsibility to be politically proactive in his/her future career. It needs to be done not only to preserve the field of Ophthalmology, but, more importantly, to protect patients some of which will invariably be duped by "Eye Physicians" and "Ophthalmoletrists". Like in the case of a patient described above.

I am glad FuturedoctorOD is posting here; I am glad to see the "I will lobby lobby lobby" comment because I know he is being truthful. In response to that I can simply say I will gladly join Andrew and other future OMDs in order to make sure that all this lobbying is a lot of wasted time.

Someone in my family was mislead by an "optometric physician" - had a partially detached retina and OD said it was nothing. Patient thought he was seeing someone with medical training. He also asked prior to app't if his insurance was accepted - answer: yes. However, after the app't, he was informed that his insurance was not accepted. So much for "optometric physician" being used for insurance purposes.

Finally he patient went to optho and received appropriate treatment. (full recovery)

Moral of the story: go to an optho if you see floaties.

This isn't about a turf war, this is about appropriate medical care and knowing where to find it. False advertising is not cool and using the word "physician" to dupe the lay public into seeing ODs is wrong.

Are ODs bound by the Hyppocratic Oath? How much do they pay in malpractice insurance?

 

[JennyW]

Someone in my family was mislead by an "optometric physician" - had a partially detached retina and OD said it was nothing. Patient thought he was seeing someone with medical training. He also asked prior to app't if his insurance was accepted - answer: yes. However, after the app't, he was informed that his insurance was not accepted. So much for "optometric physician" being used for insurance purposes.

Finally he patient went to optho and received appropriate treatment. (full recovery)

Moral of the story: go to an optho if you see floaties.

This isn't about a turf war, this is about appropriate medical care and knowing where to find it. False advertising is not cool and using the word "physician" to dupe the lay public into seeing ODs is wrong.

Are ODs bound by the Hyppocratic Oath? How much do they pay in malpractice insurance?

I'm suspicious of this story. If this were true, you would have said "my mother, or my brother-in-law" and not "someone in my family."

I also doubt that someone told this "someone in your family" that their insurance would be accepted when the OD was not a provider. Either this is a made up story, or your "family member" didn't know what insurance they had.

And don't think that only ODs are capable of missing a diagnosis. Again, I'll be glad to tell you about the patient that I saw who wanted a 2nd opinion. Her "board certified" OMD had insisted that a recurrent subconjunctival bleed she was having was caused by "dry eye" when if fact was a conjunctival lymphoma. Perhaps the patient that I saw just yesterday who was had been treated for "allergies" by his OMD for 10 days and came to my office with a raging uveitis.

It's also possible that at the time of your "family members" exam that the retina was not detached.

We can all trade anecdotes about missed diagnoses. It doesn't serve any purpose.

Are you sure you're even in med school? I'm not normally one to point out spelling mistakes, but even the greenest of 1st year med students usually know how to spell "Hippocratic"

Jenny

 

[UABopt]

This discussion has just crossed the line, and has entered into the realm of ridiculousness. Nobody is trying to mislead anybody; O.D’s call themselves “doctor” because that is what they are, Doctors of Optometry. If a patient were to ask, any OD would be more than happy to delineate the extent of optometric training and that we did not in fact go to Medical school.

Dentists did not go to medical school, and yet we still call them doctor. I would venture to say that the extent of training between dental school and optometry school are probably quite similar. Nobody doubts the academic rigor of dental school, or the competence of dentists to perform their services. This is resultant simply because they have no MD counterpart. They are the masters of the oral cavity. To offer an answer about the training of Oral and maxillofacial surgeons (I asked a dentist friend of mine), to become an OMFS residency is required. Some programs are as short as 4 years such as IU http://www.iusd.iupui.edu/depts/oshd/OSR/default.htm these programs simply offer a certificate and NO MD degree is awarded. Other programs are as long as 7 years. After the first year of hospital based residency and then taking step one of the USMLE the OMFS resident does years 3 and 4 of medical school, ie. the rotations, after the completing these two years of medical school an MD is awarded and then the remainder of the surgical residency is completed. So both arguments were right!!!!

By in large, I would venture to say, the general public does not care where you went to school, but rather that you can take care of their problem. Optometrists provide a very valuable service to society. If one examines the history of eye care, it becomes quite apparent that Optometrists and their forefathers were the founders of refractive correction. In fact initially the medical community rejected corrective lenses, insisting that they acted as a crutch and would ultimately cause a worsening of visual acuity. It was not until later that MD’s began to accept that corrective lenses and began prescribing them themselves. So just as OD’s are now becoming more and more medically oriented MDs at one point also stepped on the toes of OD’s.

In the end, I offer that there is more than enough room for all of us. For primary care an optometrist is more than qualified. I for one would rather have a refraction and exam done by a skilled OD, than go to an OMDs office were I would be refracted by a relatively untrained technician, probably with a plus cylinder phoropter no less (why do OMD’s insist on using these?) only to see the doctor for less than 5 minutes.

Offering us a story of an incompetent OD serves no purpose in a discussion such as this, just as many cases of misdiagnosis and incompetence by MDs can also be brought to light. The existence of a bad seed does not disparage an entire profession.

 

[vanelo]

This discussion has just crossed the line, and has entered into the realm of ridiculousness. Nobody is trying to mislead anybody; O.D’s call themselves “doctor” because that is what they are, Doctors of Optometry. If a patient were to ask, any OD would be more than happy to delineate the extent of optometric training and that we did not in fact go to Medical school.

Dentists did not go to medical school, and yet we still call them doctor. I would venture to say that the extent of training between dental school and optometry school are probably quite similar. Nobody doubts the academic rigor of dental school, or the competence of dentists to perform their services. This is resultant simply because they have no MD counterpart. They are the masters of the oral cavity. To offer an answer about the training of Oral and maxillofacial surgeons (I asked a dentist friend of mine), to become an OMFS residency is required. Some programs are as short as 4 years such as IU http://www.iusd.iupui.edu/depts/oshd/OSR/default.htm these programs simply offer a certificate and NO MD degree is awarded. Other programs are as long as 7 years. After the first year of hospital based residency and then taking step one of the USMLE the OMFS resident does years 3 and 4 of medical school, ie. the rotations, after the completing these two years of medical school an MD is awarded and then the remainder of the surgical residency is completed. So both arguments were right!!!!

By in large, I would venture to say, the general public does not care where you went to school, but rather that you can take care of their problem. Optometrists provide a very valuable service to society. If one examines the history of eye care, it becomes quite apparent that Optometrists and their forefathers were the founders of refractive correction. In fact initially the medical community rejected corrective lenses, insisting that they acted as a crutch and would ultimately cause a worsening of visual acuity. It was not until later that MD’s began to accept that corrective lenses and began prescribing them themselves. So just as OD’s are now becoming more and more medically oriented MDs at one point also stepped on the toes of OD’s.

In the end, I offer that there is more than enough room for all of us. For primary care an optometrist is more than qualified, I for one would rather have a refraction done by a skilled OD, than go to an OMDs office were I would be refracted by a relatively untrained technician, probably with a plus cylinder phoropter no less (why do OMD’s insist on using these?) only to see the doctor for less than 5 minutes.

Offering us a story of an incompetent OD serves no purpose in a discussion such as this, just as many cases of misdiagnosis and incompetence by MDs can also be brought to light. The existence of a bad seed does not disparage an entire profession.

5 paragraphs of pure BS

 

[UABopt]

5 paragraphs of pure BS

vanelo-

We should all be grateful that we can always count on you to make such constructive comments.

 

[vanelo]

vanelo-

We should all be grateful that we can always count on you to make such constructive comments.

Thank you

 

[JR]

You have completely missed the entire point.

NO ONE ON THIS FORUM HAS EVER STATED THAT OPTOMETRISTS DON'T HAVE A VALUABLE ROLE IN SOCIETY. Ever.

What we constantly discuss and oppose is the scope of practice expansion by organized optometry, obtaining surgical priviledges by optometrists, etc. I personally think that optometrists have a very important role in the eye care profession as primary care doctors with a defined scope of practice. When entering an optometric field one should know what exactly this field involves. You should not be able to wake up one day and decide to start lobbying for scope expansion. It is not fair to patients.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Optometrists are doctors. I agree. Let's stop this nonsense discussion now about doctor or not doctor...

Optometrists are NOT surgeons. This is where we should focus our efforts.

 

[mdkurt]

NO ONE ON THIS FORUM HAS EVER STATED THAT OPTOMETRISTS DON'T HAVE A VALUABLE ROLE IN SOCIETY. Ever.

Well...I think a couple people have come pretty close. Those more ridiculous comments notwithstanding, I do think we can take away a few pearls from this thread. Just remember that the most outspoken person on this thread hasn't even been accepted to optometry school yet, but seems to have the politically active optom schtick down pretty well:

1. Lobby for expansion of scope of practice, even though you're not quite yet sure of what that should entail

2. Threaten to cut off all referrals to any OMD that doesn't agree with you.

 

[JennyW]

Well...I think a couple people have come pretty close.

2. Threaten to cut off all referrals to any OMD that doesn't agree with you.

Most reasonable people would agree that there is a big difference between not referring to someone who "doesn't agree with you" and not referring to someone who regards you and your profession with disdain.

Jenny

 

[wtwei02]

Most reasonable people would agree that there is a big difference between not referring to someone who "doesn't agree with you" and not referring to someone who regards you and your profession with disdain.

Jenny

I have no problem with OD's and certainly no disdain for them. At the same time, just from what I've seen with the push for scope expansion by a group of OD's, I am starting to become a more suspicious about their true intentions. As long as OD's stick to primary care for the eye and stay away from any surgical procedures, we can all get along fine and the patients also benefit from the best care available. That being said, I'm glad I don't live in New Mexico or Oklahoma.

 

[EYESURG]

It is unresonable OMD's like you (not most of them) that will nspire me to lobby and lobby and lobby for scope expansion..I will send my referrals to your counterparts that are resonable and not arrogant, haughty, and elitist. Have a nice day and good luck.

I believe my comments were very constructive in showing to everybody on this forum what kind of agenda some optometrist (not all) and want-a-be optometrist actually have in mind. This is the kind of people who are trying to expand the scope of optometry and mislead the public. If this person is not even in optometry school and is thinking this way, imagine how some optometrist are actually thinking! This person accuse me of being arrogant. I wonder how he would feel if opticians start doing what he will be doing in his future practice. Will he still go into optometry school? Most likely not. The moral of the story is that my comments revealed what this person's true intentions are. He tries to agree with Dr. Doan on some things in order to legitimize his point and then goes on and say he "will lobby and lobby and lobby for scope expansion." I do not believe Dr. Doan agrees with you on this! Dr. Doan, we need to identify people like that and help them realize that what they are doing is actually misleading patients. One day we will be saying that oh I agree they are "eye surgeons" but they can't do this procedure...etc.

Also, I do stick to my point that some optometrist are misleading the public and you (OD want-a-be) are exactly the type of person that would do such a thing. Very unfortunate. Good luck to you in whatever you do. BTW, I am 100% sure that I won't be needing your referrals. Thank you.

 

[futuredoctorOD]

Just to prove to you that you don't know what you're talking about...
http://dental.columbia.edu/OMS/OMS_Res2.html

Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery Residency ProgramAt New York-Presbyterian Hospital
Columbia University Medical Center
The oral and maxillofacial surgery residency program at NYPH/Columbia University
Medical Center Campus is designed to provide the resident with a solid foundation in the
specialty that meets the requirements of the Commission of Dental Accreditation.
During the six-year program, residents will obtain the M.D. degree from the Faculty of
Physicians and Surgeons of Columbia University, and in addition to training in oral and
maxillofacial surgery, will complete one year in general surgery at New York-
Presbyterian Hospital.
Our graduates are well prepared for either a career as a community-based practitioner or
in academics. To promote a career in academics, residents participate in teaching predoctoral
dental students, participate in several multi-disciplinary conferences, and have
the opportunity to engage in research.
Application process:
Applicants should possess a bachelor’s degree and must be a graduate of either an
American or Canadian dental school accredited by the Commission of Dental
Accreditation of the American Dental Association prior to the start of the program.

The yearly breakdown is as follows:

Year I - PGY1 Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery - 9 Months
Anesthesia 3 Months
Year II - Medical School
Year III - Medical SchoolYear IV - PGY1 General Surgery Residency
Year V - Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery
Year VI - Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery

So let me summarize for you... for a dentist to do oral surgery, they must go to medical school and get their M.D.

Not every program requires this. I called several programs that offer OMFS residencies and this is not commonality. I have a friend who is in a program as we speak and he is not getting an MD and does facial trauma call!!!!! I just worked out with him in the gym this weekend......Maybe this is a state by state, program by program variance. I am telling you--my brother is the senior resident in his general surgery program and takes call for trauma. He called an OMFS guy last week to come in and deal with a facial trauma caused by a baseball bat. I trust a surgeon (a damn good one--my bro) and real life account over a cut and paste from a miscellaneous person on a website any day! I AM NOT HERE TO FIGHT WITH YOU.......My friend is an OMFS guy and I think he knows what he is!

 

[futuredoctorOD]

I believe my comments were very constructive in showing to everybody on this forum what kind of agenda some optometrist (not all) and want-a-be optometrist actually have in mind. This is the kind of people who are trying to expand the scope of optometry and mislead the public. If this person is not even in optometry school and is thinking this way, imagine how some optometrist are actually thinking! This person accuse me of being arrogant. I wonder how he would feel if opticians start doing what he will be doing in his future practice. Will he still go into optometry school? Most likely not. The moral of the story is that my comments revealed what this person's true intentions are. He tries to agree with Dr. Doan on some things in order to legitimize his point and then goes on and say he "will lobby and lobby and lobby for scope expansion." I do not believe Dr. Doan agrees with you on this! Dr. Doan, we need to identify people like that and help them realize that what they are doing is actually misleading patients. One day we will be saying that oh I agree they are "eye surgeons" but they can't do this procedure...etc.

Also, I do stick to my point that some optometrist are misleading the public and you (OD want-a-be) are exactly the type of person that would do such a thing. Very unfortunate. Good luck to you in whatever you do. BTW, I am 100% sure that I won't be needing your referrals. Thank you.

Preface: I am 31 yrs old---Republican party member--politically active, ran a company for a few years, got a BSc degree, and was a professional athlete. I have experience in business, health, and politics and life--more than 99% of 23-25 yr old medical students. Your degrading comments are unfortunate and show a lack of security. Optometrists are eye doctors---read Dr. Doan's most recent comment for you information. I am not an OD-wanna be--I will be an OD in 5 years--this is not event a point of contentionl. Anything I have wanted in my life I have achieved because I have big heart and tons of self-determination. Be humble because you were once in "my shoes" applying for your program (MD)...so have a little respect for someone who is busting his ass to go to program and become the best damn Eye Doctor he can. I have to admit one thing---people like you motivate me to learn as much as I can--I will do two residencies (both 1 year) in Ocular disease (one with the VA and one with an eye institute) because when a come across someone like you---I am going have a very strong knowledge base regarding my scope. Keep in mind--I chose optometry because it is what I want NOT because I couldn't get accepted to a DO/MD program---I never applied or even thought about it although I have the upper 20% of applicants statistics in my favor--regarding grades and experience...When I speak of scope expansion---I mean having hospital privilages--we deserve this--at all hospitals, broaden our prescription drugs we can write, and create new residency programs for OD's who wish to spend 5 to 7 yrs to do surgery after they get their OD. I am not supporting a short-cut to surgery but I do support minor surgical proceedures for Optometrists.....Please be humble and respect other professionals. I will be one of them.

 

[futuredoctorOD]

Optometrists are doctors. I agree. Let's stop this nonsense discussion now about doctor or not doctor...

Optometrists are NOT surgeons. This is where we should focus our efforts.

Thank you Dr. Doan. I looked into your info about New Mexico and Oklahoma and I can see your point although I do support "minor surgical proceedures" for properly trained OD's I feel maybe instead of OD's and OMD's going to war why don't they just establish a 5 yr or so surgical residency program for the 2% of Optometrists that would be interested in doing surgery? I will not be one of them, I can assure you, but wouldn't it establish a precedent that would make both sides happy?

I love of politics......

Member of the Republican Party

 

[futuredoctorOD]

Just to prove to you that you don't know what you're talking about...
http://dental.columbia.edu/OMS/OMS_Res2.html

Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery Residency ProgramAt New York-Presbyterian Hospital
Columbia University Medical Center
The oral and maxillofacial surgery residency program at NYPH/Columbia University
Medical Center Campus is designed to provide the resident with a solid foundation in the
specialty that meets the requirements of the Commission of Dental Accreditation.
During the six-year program, residents will obtain the M.D. degree from the Faculty of
Physicians and Surgeons of Columbia University, and in addition to training in oral and
maxillofacial surgery, will complete one year in general surgery at New York-
Presbyterian Hospital.
Our graduates are well prepared for either a career as a community-based practitioner or
in academics. To promote a career in academics, residents participate in teaching predoctoral
dental students, participate in several multi-disciplinary conferences, and have
the opportunity to engage in research.
Application process:
Applicants should possess a bachelor’s degree and must be a graduate of either an
American or Canadian dental school accredited by the Commission of Dental
Accreditation of the American Dental Association prior to the start of the program.

The yearly breakdown is as follows:

Year I - PGY1 Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery - 9 Months
Anesthesia 3 Months
Year II - Medical School
Year III - Medical SchoolYear IV - PGY1 General Surgery Residency
Year V - Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery
Year VI - Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery
Quote from UABopt--yesterday 4 pm
So let me summarize for you... for a dentist to do oral surgery, they must go to medical school and get their M.D.

"To offer an answer about the training of Oral and maxillofacial surgeons (I asked a dentist friend of mine), to become an OMFS residency is required. Some programs are as short as 4 years such as IU http://www.iusd.iupui.edu/depts/oshd/OSR/default.htm these programs simply offer a certificate and NO MD degree is awarded. Other programs are as long as 7 years. After the first year of hospital based residency and then taking step one of the USMLE the OMFS resident does years 3 and 4 of medical school, ie. the rotations, after the completing these two years of medical school an MD is awarded and then the remainder of the surgical residency is completed. So both arguments were right!!!!"
"

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Thank you Dr. Doan. I looked into your info about New Mexico and Oklahoma and I can see your point although I do support "minor surgical proceedures" for properly trained OD's I feel maybe instead of OD's and OMD's going to war why don't they just establish a 5 yr or so surgical residency program for the 2% of Optometrists that would be interested in doing surgery? I will not be one of them, I can assure you, but wouldn't it establish a precedent that would make both sides happy?

We don't need more surgeons. Even minor surgery. For the most part, patients have access to ophthamologists (Eye Physicians & Surgeons).

I draw the line at surgery. No way. I will not back down on this. BTW, dentistry is historically a surgical field. They also complete a long OMFS residency to do surgery. We cannot compare optometry to dentistry.

 

[Ace7]

futuredoctorOD,

I have to tell you, your posts make my days a little more entertaining, but lets get to my point and that is I have no problem with OD being called "Doctor", many professionals hold that title and have no interest or training in patient care. So I see no problem there, however I have a big problem with non-physicians trying to do the job of physicians through back door tactics. Dr. Doan has presented a prefect example of why this is a problem. I'm sure ODs could be taught the proper surgical techniques to perform surgery (some would even have very good skills), but that is a very minor part of being a good surgeon. The more important skills are understanding the total physiological picture of the patient, knowing when to perform a procedure and when not to, and possibly the most important what to do when things go wrong. All these things are taught in medical school and residency and I don't think ODs can obtain these skills in a seminar setting. You have also talked about an OD residency program for those that want to do surgery. What's the point? If you want to be a surgeon go to medical school, then you will be well prepared to deal with all the non-technical aspects of surgery. If you think you don't need this training then in the end you are doing your patients a disservice.

Now about your comments about this being a turf war. Your D@mn right it's a turf war and I, as a MD, will fight tooth and nail to ensure nonqualified health care providers stay far away from patients. This is not to say ODs don't have a place in medicine, they definitely do, but don't put people at risk because you can lobby to get surgical rights. Finally, what did you think the response of a profession would be when you try to attack it using legal and political avenues?

A

 

[vanelo]

When I speak of scope expansion---I mean having hospital privilages--we deserve this--at all hospitals,

No you don't, thats the point!!! Why do you think you do, when in fact its unreal to believe you are qualified to work in a hospital setting on your own??

 

[wtwei02]

I feel maybe instead of OD's and OMD's going to war why don't they just establish a 5 yr or so surgical residency program for the 2% of Optometrists that would be interested in doing surgery?

Sure, why not...It's called Med School and Ophtho Residency, and it's a total of 8 years. But then again, if you're interested in helping the poor, underserved people who allegedly don't have access to Ophthalmologists for surgical procedures, you wouldn't mind an addition few years of school/residency on top of what you've already done.

 

[mdkurt]

Preface: I am 31 yrs old---Republican party member--politically active, ran a company for a few years, got a BSc degree, and was a professional athlete.

We don't get many former pro atheletes on SDN. Don't leave us hanging--what sport?

 

[SteelEyes]

Greetings all. This is actually my first post on SDN. I've been reading this thread for a while trying to take everything in and now I feel compelled to speak some thoughts.

First of all, let's acknowledge the fact that we are all eye care professionals, from ophthalmologists to optometrists to opticians. I believe we all have significant yet individual roles for patient eye care and thus I see the underlying problem here as a poorly defined line between the roles of the various eye care professionals. As a result you have people jockying for position within their respective roles.

What I find most alarming is the lack of respect for each other. I am absolutely apalled by some of the current and future ophthalmologists for their arrogant comments. Let's try to be more constructive here. To criticize someone's educational training and background is fruitless and immature.

I do believe only ophthalmologists should be doing surgery, but there's a right way and a wrong way to lobby for this agenda. Patient care is one of the primary issues involved here, but let's not use patient care as a mask for defending turf.

I hope that we can extend respect amongst each other as we continue to sort out these issues. By the way, you might be interested that I will be an ophthalmology resident starting in 2006.

 

[EYESURG]

Greetings all. This is actually my first post on SDN. I've been reading this thread for a while trying to take everything in and now I feel compelled to speak some thoughts.

First of all, let's acknowledge the fact that we are all eye care professionals, from ophthalmologists to optometrists to opticians. I believe we all have significant yet individual roles for patient eye care and thus I see the underlying problem here as a poorly defined line between the roles of the various eye care professionals. As a result you have people jockying for position within their respective roles.

What I find most alarming is the lack of respect for each other. I am absolutely apalled by some of the current and future ophthalmologists for their arrogant comments. Let's try to be more constructive here. To criticize someone's educational training and background is fruitless and immature.

I do believe only ophthalmologists should be doing surgery, but there's a right way and a wrong way to lobby for this agenda. Patient care is one of the primary issues involved here, but let's not use patient care as a mask for defending turf.

I hope that we can extend respect amongst each other as we continue to sort out these issues. By the way, you might be interested that I will be an ophthalmology resident starting in 2006.

Identifying people like futureoptometrist is a very important thing. I will keep doing what I am doing and the more he talks the more his true colors are showing. He now wants hospital privilages to do surgeries and training for optometrist to become surgeons in addition to the lobbying lobbying and lobbying. We wouldn't have known that if i didn't say something. Futureoptometrist, I don't care if you are an athlete or whatever fun you've had in your life. However, I do care that you are attacking my profession. I do believe that if you have a choice of being an ophthalmologist or optometrist you would chose ophthalmology. That's is why you say what you say.

I will keep standing up for the right of ophthalmologists and will expose anybody who wants to take advantage of the good hearted and nice ophthalmologist out there. Also, please stop insulting medical students by implying that they don't have a life, especially between the age of "23-25." Only if you know what it means to go to medical school, but you DON'T.

For all future and present ophthalmologists: I think we should all fight people like that starting by educating our relatives, friends and colleagues about this issue. I am not going to be humble with people like that. No Way.

 

[SteelEyes]

For all future ophthalmologist: I think we should all fight people like that starting by educating our relatives, friends and colleagues about this issue.

I think this is probably the best arguement I've heard yet.

 

[vanelo]

For all future and present ophthalmologists: I think we should all fight people like that starting by educating our relatives, friends and colleagues about this issue. I am not going to be humble with people like that. No Way.

Me neither!!! Lets kick those [edited by Andrew_Doan]

 

[JAMMAN]

I like to razz my ophtho buddies by calling them "eye dentists"...only in jest

 

[JAMMAN]

Now about your comments about this being a turf war. Your D@mn right it's a turf war and I, as a MD, will fight tooth and nail to ensure nonqualified health care providers stay far away from patients. This is not to say ODs don't have a place in medicine, they definitely do, but don't put people at risk because you can lobby to get surgical rights. Finally, what did you think the response of a profession would be when you try to attack it using legal and political avenues?

A

Absolutely! The medical profession is constantly being attacked by wanna-be physicians who don't want to take the time to do the training required.

 

[aphistis]

I like to razz my ophtho buddies by calling them "eye dentists"...only in jest

Do they thank you for the compliment?

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Please play nice. I don't want to start post-holding people in the ophthalmology forum.

I realize these are heated discussions, but being professional will win more allies!

 

[futuredoctorOD]

Please play nice. I don't want to start post-holding people in the ophthalmology forum.

I realize these are heated discussions, but being professional will win more allies!

These discussions are on fire.....Negative opinions or not I will say one thing demonstratively, whether Optometry or Opthalmology people on here seem to be very passionate about what they are doing......That, is a good thing.

One quick question---In terms of exposure to ocular pathology as a Optometry resident---1 yr after OD, I have heard that the VA residency programs are pretty good at exposing you to more cases...Do you have any reccomendations (this is at least 4 yrs from now for me)--for an OD that would give him/her even more exposure to serious eye diseases and tertiary care? I want to deal with ocular disease as much as I can when I am out and learn as much as I can in the next 5-6 years...Any suggestions....

Thanks

 

[futuredoctorOD]

Identifying people like futureoptometrist is a very important thing. I will keep doing what I am doing and the more he talks the more his true colors are showing. He now wants hospital privilages to do surgeries and training for optometrist to become surgeons in addition to the lobbying lobbying and lobbying. We wouldn't have known that if i didn't say something. Futureoptometrist, I don't care if you are an athlete or whatever fun you've had in your life. However, I do care that you are attacking my profession. I do believe that if you have a choice of being an ophthalmologist or optometrist you would chose ophthalmology. That's is why you say what you say.

I will keep standing up for the right of ophthalmologists and will expose anybody who wants to take advantage of the good hearted and nice ophthalmologist out there. Also, please stop insulting medical students by implying that they don't have a life, especially between the age of "23-25." Only if you know what it means to go to medical school, but you DON'T.

For all future and present ophthalmologists: I think we should all fight people like that starting by educating our relatives, friends and colleagues about this issue. I am not going to be humble with people like that. No Way.

I never said that a medical student (25-25) has "no life." You are distorting things sir. I made the logical and very resonable generalization that a 23-25 year old is not even close in life experience (on the average) wiht a 31 year old....How can you dispute this? roughly 8 yr age difference is substantial....I have been in the "real world"--ran a business and dealt with politics....You cannot substitute that with "professional school" whether it be med school or whatever. I have a lot of respect for someone who goes to medical school BUT I have equal respect for someone who goes to Dentistry, Optometry, Chiropractic, Podiatry and so on....All these practitioners bust thier asses to get thier degrees along with MD's and DO's. All I said was----you cannot get the same life experience at 23 versus 31--this is just a fact. You turning what I said into a distorted spin about how people "like me" are out to deceive your relatives, friends, and colleagues---THIS IS NOT THE CASE. And let me make this clear---once and for all, If given a seat in a DO/MD program or a seat in an OD program---I would not hesitate---OD is what I would take and this is what I am going to take. I want to be PRIMARY CARE---not surgery or subspecialty..I want to work 40 hr weeks and go home to my FAMILY--more important to me than a career. And being an athlete was not just "fun in my life" I worked my ass off--finished in the top two in the country in my sport one of my competative seasons---you are the one who is tossing insults--not me! On a side note--what year are you in your program and what do you plan on specializing in?

Future Nice Guy

 

[futuredoctorOD]

We don't get many former pro atheletes on SDN. Don't leave us hanging--what sport?

Professional Powerlifting and Olympic Lifting---I used to wrestle and work as a strength coach in NCAA Div1A college football in the past. Did you play any sports?

 

[mdkurt]

Professional Powerlifting and Olympic Lifting---I used to wrestle and work as a strength coach in NCAA Div1A college football in the past. Did you play any sports?

I was an honest-to-God cheerleader. I hope a mature 31 year old like yourself can refrain from further comment.

The question about opto residencies is probably better directed to the optometry forum.

 

[MSHell]

I'm suspicious of this story. If this were true, you would have said "my mother, or my brother-in-law" and not "someone in my family."

In the spirit of anonymity (will you crucify me if I spelled this wrong too?), I didn't wish to say it was my father. Would you like the zip code too?

I also doubt that someone told this "someone in your family" that their insurance would be accepted when the OD was not a provider. Either this is a made up story, or your "family member" didn't know what insurance they had.

He showed the insurance card. I don't know, maybe the OD or the secretary couldn't see it properly

And don't think that only ODs are capable of missing a diagnosis. Again, I'll be glad to tell you about the patient that I saw who wanted a 2nd opinion. Her "board certified" OMD had insisted that a recurrent subconjunctival bleed she was having was caused by "dry eye" when if fact was a conjunctival lymphoma. Perhaps the patient that I saw just yesterday who was had been treated for "allergies" by his OMD for 10 days and came to my office with a raging uveitis.

It's also possible that at the time of your "family members" exam that the retina was not detached.

Does it have to be a dangling eye-ball for it to be noticeable? My father went to an optho only several hours later and his retina was found to be partially detached. I'll let you make that call.

Everyone is capable of misdiagnosis, but the issue is to know your limits and to know when to say "I don't know."

We can all trade anecdotes about missed diagnoses. It doesn't serve any purpose.

My purpose was that opthos and OD have their place. I see an OD for my glasses and am very happy with my care. Misrepresentation is wrong under any circumstance and can have damaging consequences.

Are you sure you're even in med school? I'm not normally one to point out spelling mistakes, but even the greenest of 1st year med students usually know how to spell "Hippocratic"

Jenny

I am pretty sure I am in med school. Now that I think about it, I'm very sure. And on another note, how do I know your credentials? This is an anonymous forum! And as for the spelling mistake, I was tired. I apologize profusely for it. I wasn't an English major.

 

[knightrider]

The following definitions are from a dictionary; for some who are not aware, a dictionary is a book that defines words, so that people can learn their meanings and not appear IGNORANT or act in a manner that is misleading (unless that is their intent) in their day to day life. Even though state governments can be lobbied by dollars and misled by pushy health care professionals who disregard their own limitations, the truth still means something to me, and it has consequences for our patients.

phy·si·cian *(f-zshn) n.
1. A person licensed to practice medicine; a medical doctor.
2. A person who practices general medicine.
3. A person who heals or exerts a healing influence.

doc·tor *(dktr) n.
1. A person, especially a physician, dentist, or veterinarian, trained in the healing arts and licensed to practice.
2. A person who has earned the highest academic degree awarded by a college or university in a specified discipline.

optometrist n
a person skilled in testing for defects of vision in order to prescribe corrective glasses

so lets keep this simple for people who didn't make it to the united states medical licensing exam part 1, 2, or 3; the 3rd yr medical school rotations; and the graduation ceremony from medical school. as the definitions indicate, being an optometrist or optician doesnt qualify you as a physician, unless you consider yourself to be exerting a healing influence, and then again so did some of the patients on my psych rotation... nor do optometrists hold the highest academic degree awarded by an institution in the treatment of eye disease. the difference here is that dentists/OMFS/veterinarians do.
so wouldn't it be better for everyone, if optometrists would stop misleading people, be it the government or your patients. step forward, realize your limitations, and if you want to be a doctor or a physician go to medical school and try to land an ophtho spot.
as for futuredocs statements on "real life" experience, politics, professional sports, and running a business although nice, does not amount to #&^% when it comes to extracting a cataract or pealing an epiretinal membrane.

 

[futuredoctorOD]

The following definitions are from a dictionary; for some who are not aware, a dictionary is a book that defines words, so that people can learn their meanings and not appear IGNORANT or act in a manner that is misleading (unless that is their intent) in their day to day life. Even though state governments can be lobbied by dollars and misled by pushy health care professionals who disregard their own limitations, the truth still means something to me, and it has consequences for our patients.

phy·si·cian *(f-zshn) n.
1. A person licensed to practice medicine; a medical doctor.
2. A person who practices general medicine.
3. A person who heals or exerts a healing influence.

doc·tor *(dktr) n.
1. A person, especially a physician, dentist, or veterinarian, trained in the healing arts and licensed to practice.
2. A person who has earned the highest academic degree awarded by a college or university in a specified discipline.

optometrist n
a person skilled in testing for defects of vision in order to prescribe corrective glasses

so lets keep this simple for people who didn't make it to the united states medical licensing exam part 1, 2, or 3; the 3rd yr medical school rotations; and the graduation ceremony from medical school. as the definitions indicate, being an optometrist or optician doesnt qualify you as a physician, unless you consider yourself to be exerting a healing influence, and then again so did some of the patients on my psych rotation... nor do optometrists hold the highest academic degree awarded by an institution in the treatment of eye disease. the difference here is that dentists/OMFS/veterinarians do.
so wouldn't it be better for everyone, if optometrists would stop misleading people, be it the government or your patients. step forward, realize your limitations, and if you want to be a doctor or a physician go to medical school and try to land an ophtho spot.
as for futuredocs statements on "real life" experience, politics, professional sports, and running a business although nice, does not amount to #&^% when it comes to extracting a cataract or pealing an epiretinal membrane.

OK......read the comments of your OWN Moderator---Dr. Doan, "Optometrists are primary care eye doctors." Your comments are insulting......It is a FACT that optometrists are eye doctors......You may want to argue the semantics of using the word Physician and frankly I am tired of this nonsense...I take what you said in this paragraph as a flat out attack on me and others that are going for a DOCTOR OF OPTOMETRY degree...................


American Optometric Association
"Doctors of optometry are independent primary health care providers who examine, diagnose, treat and manage diseases and disorders of the visual system, the eye and associated structures as well as diagnose related systemic conditions. Optometrists examine the internal and external structure of the eyes to diagnose eye diseases like glaucoma, cataracts and retinal disorders; systemic diseases like hypertension and diabetes; and vision conditions like nearsightedness, farsightedness, astigmatism and presbyopia. Optometrists also do testing to determine the patient's ability to focus and coordinate the eyes, and to judge depth and see colors accurately. They prescribe eyeglasses and contact lenses, low vision aids, vision therapy and medicines to treat eye diseases.
As primary eye care providers, optometrists are an integral part of the health care team and an entry point into the health care system. They are skilled in the co-management of care that affects the eye health and vision of their patients and an excellent source of referral to other health care professionals.

The optometrist has completed pre-professional undergraduate education in a college or university and four years of professional education at a college of optometry, leading to the doctor of optometry (O.D.) degree. Some optometrists complete a residency."

A DDS--is the highest degree in that profession, a OD--is the highest degree in that profession. Your quote---" 2. a person who has earned the highest academic degree awarded by a college or university in a specified discipline. News Flash---Optometry is an independent discipline.
And your wonderful comment, "extracting a cataract or pealing an epiretinal membrane." An OD is a PRIMARY CARE EYE DOCTOR---what part of this do you not understand? We outnumber you 3 to 1, OD's and OMD's/ODO's are all doctors, in the "real" world 99% of the public refers to Optometrists and Opthalmologists in the same breath not even knowing the differences...lol I just got back from a School visit and witnessed a herpes zoster infection in the eye (saw the active sites of the virus), witnessed an OD prescribe oral prednizone, apply a corticosteroid, do post-op on a patient that was referred back to him from the Opthalmologist that works in the same interdisciplinary practice, and had a discussion with that same Optho about how Optometrists are great primary care eye docs.....
Your opinions in your post are not based on fact and a direct attack on Eye Doctor OD's and can tell you right now with conviction---I will make a difference for this profession and it is people like you that make me want to change my opinion about surgery and use politics to get surgical privilages for Optometrists---I really don't want to but spite is very powerful motivator. So watch your mouth. Your attitude will just motivate more expansion in Optometry and you are outnumbered 3 to 1. So accept the fact that in the next 10 years OD's will provide 90% of the primary care (they do 70% currently) as primary care Eye Doctors and Opthalmologists will be doing almost exclusively---surgery...this is the trend...you can either accept it or live on your little Elitist Island. Because frankly I am sick and tired of your unprofessional insults aimed at the profession I am going into. .I will fight people like you with every ounce of energy and resources I have and you will feel it----I promise you.......

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Do not argue physician vs doctor with optometrists. This will get ophthalmologists no where.

Stick to this argument: surgeons vs non-surgeons. This is where we need to focus our efforts.