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Why Obamacare is ruining your future...

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Futuredoctr

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Since being on rotations, I have noticed that President Obama's healthcare inititive is going to ruin my career. I open this thread to all who wish to rant and rave why or if you dare, why not, Obamacare is ruining your future career. Granted, I'll be a physician no matter what, but from the way things are looking, docs are going to get screwed every which way in the whole deal.
 
Well that is what this thread is for, but as you wish, ONE example would be the lack of tort reform in any of the current healthcare bills. Is it not obvious to EVERYONE, that the costs of healthcare stem DIRECTLY from defensive medicine? I cannot even begin to count the number of useless tests that I've seen ordered in the name of defensive medicine. How many drunks have you seen in the ER with over 50 CTs because of falling down and hitting there heads, but heaven knows that the one time a doc fails to order one, and the one time a subdural is missed, the doc can forget practicing medicine, or at least will never see the end of it.
 
Well that is what this thread is for, but as you wish, ONE example would be the lack of tort reform in any of the current healthcare bills. Is it not obvious to EVERYONE, that the costs of healthcare stem DIRECTLY from defensive medicine? I cannot even begin to count the number of useless tests that I've seen ordered in the name of defensive medicine. How many drunks have you seen in the ER with over 50 CTs because of falling down and hitting there heads, but heaven knows that the one time a doc fails to order one, and the one time a subdural is missed, the doc can forget practicing medicine, or at least will never see the end of it.

Your point is..?
 
Your point is..?

His point is that instead of proposing multiple ubercomplicated, trillion plus dollar plans which basically accomplish nothing, maybe our leadership should pass some tort reform. It would significantly reduce healthcare costs without costing us a penny in taxdollars.
 
His point is that instead of proposing multiple ubercomplicated, trillion plus dollar plans which basically accomplish nothing, maybe our leadership should pass some tort reform. It would significantly reduce healthcare costs without costing us a penny in taxdollars.

👍

People, especially medical students, are not smart enough to realize they are getting taken for a ride. Tort reform is a great start. CBO says it will save 54 billion off the federal budget. People need to start taking responsibility for their actions. The extremely obese or noncompliant diabetic patient should be held accountable for their actions.

Many of my fellow classmates didn't even know there was a healthcare bill voted on yesterday......absolutely pathetic
 
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Examples would be nice.

Read between the lines...he wants to cut 500 billion form medicare but the AMA lobbied hard enough to get the government to get ride of 247 billion in cuts to medicare payments to physicians. So its a simple concept. Decreased funding to medicare and the same payments to doctors means that 500 billion must be made up somewhere else. I guess that will either cause a raise in taxes, decrease of healthcare in quantity and/or quality for the elderly or you can have both.

It isn't that hard.
 
Well that is what this thread is for, but as you wish, ONE example would be the lack of tort reform in any of the current healthcare bills. Is it not obvious to EVERYONE, that the costs of healthcare stem DIRECTLY from defensive medicine? I cannot even begin to count the number of useless tests that I've seen ordered in the name of defensive medicine. How many drunks have you seen in the ER with over 50 CTs because of falling down and hitting there heads, but heaven knows that the one time a doc fails to order one, and the one time a subdural is missed, the doc can forget practicing medicine, or at least will never see the end of it.

a) wrong forum
b) your example isn't really the best one to prove your example, try something like chest pain
c) it's actually not so obvious that the costs of healthcare stem DIRECTLY from defensive medicine because there are multiple issues that are causing problems with our increasing cost of health care. The recent CBO states that capping malpractice liability cuts spending by 0.5%. That's still quite a lot of money, but that percentage already implies that there are other issues that directly contribute to the problem.

Since being on rotations, I have noticed that President Obama's healthcare inititive is going to ruin my career. I open this thread to all who wish to rant and rave why or if you dare, why not, Obamacare is ruining your future career. Granted, I'll be a physician no matter what, but from the way things are looking, docs are going to get screwed every which way in the whole deal.

To quote what someone said about me back when I was hysterical about my job market, "OMG the sky is falling run run run chicken little". Docs said this about how medicare in the 60s would run doctors out of business, destroy the patient-physician relationship, etc., only to make a lot of them pretty rich.

His point is that instead of proposing multiple ubercomplicated, trillion plus dollar plans which basically accomplish nothing, maybe our leadership should pass some tort reform. It would significantly reduce healthcare costs without costing us a penny in taxdollars.

Tort reform is good and needed for physicians, but tort reform alone will at best make a small dent in costs. Capping liability alone won't necessarily do the trick; 20-so states like Missouri and Texas have tried and the results have been mixed at best. For several states, capping liability did not significantly reduce malpractice insurance and basically became a a cash give-away for malpractice insurance companies. There's no real silver bullet to this problem, we should not treat it as so either.
 
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Well that is what this thread is for, but as you wish, ONE example would be the lack of tort reform in any of the current healthcare bills. Is it not obvious to EVERYONE, that the costs of healthcare stem DIRECTLY from defensive medicine? I cannot even begin to count the number of useless tests that I've seen ordered in the name of defensive medicine. How many drunks have you seen in the ER with over 50 CTs because of falling down and hitting there heads, but heaven knows that the one time a doc fails to order one, and the one time a subdural is missed, the doc can forget practicing medicine, or at least will never see the end of it.

To be honest, the malpractice system as it exists today has nothing to do with Obama so to include it under Obama care is somewhat unfair. And no it is not obvious that the costs of health care stem directly from defensive medicine since that is blatantly not the case. Tort reform should be part of his plan, and it would defray some costs, but there are other larger issues.

👍

People, especially medical students, are not smart enough to realize they are getting taken for a ride. Tort reform is a great start. CBO says it will save 54 billion off the federal budget. People need to start taking responsibility for their actions. The extremely obese or noncompliant diabetic patient should be held accountable for their actions.

Tort reform and personal responsibility are two totally different and unrelated things. Tort is a great start but I don't see how that relates to an extremely obese person or non-compliant diabetic being held accountable.

Frankly if you can come up with anything that would effectively increase the personal accountability of people, especially Americans, I would vote for you for president.
 
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I think everyone is being incredibly naive by simply accepting that if the CBO says tort reform will save only $54 billion, that this must be true. The CBO has estimated the cost of a healthcare bill that hasn't even been written and the public hasn't even seen what's in it! Where exactly does that psychic power come from? The CBO is obviously just as much a political tool than anything else in Washington. So ask yourself, what method of tort reform was the CBO evaluating? Are all methods of tort reform created equal? Can we even quantify the extent that medical malpractice influences doctors' decisions? Let's also go beyond the money and ask ourselves if tort reform must happen for other reasons as well. Talk to most doctors about what they think about the medical malpractice situation and they'll tell you it stinks and it often weighs greatly on their minds. What might it do to improve medicine if it wasn't the big issue that it is today? How much better might doctors be able to practice medicine if they didn't need to worry or pay tens of thousands of dollars a year for protection just in case they get sued? Think of OB/GYN doctors who often pay more than $145,000 a year for malpractice insurance. Just think about what good could be done if all that money went towards charitable care, or simply allowed practices to stay open, or better yet allowed doctors to hire more help and create jobs?

Bottom line is, you all know medical malpractice is an important issue that needs to be addressed and doctors have been screaming for it to be addressed for years. So why can't everyone recognize that this change is needed and demand that it get done?
 
So why can't everyone recognize that this change is needed and demand that it get done?
Why would the left do anything about it? They get ton's of money and stay in power largely b/c of the ambulance chaser's lobby. And, the politicians aren't gonna feel too bad for those "overpaid" physicians and they're $200k/yr salaries. 🙄

It's the sad truth, but our political system has been exploited and trashed and the only best interests being taken into consideration are those of the narcissists in office.
 
-I chose the example of medical malpratice not because it was the best per say, but the issue I'm most sore with... I think the perfect example is the president proclaiming he is going to get the savings by cutting out the waste and fraud out of medicare and medicaid. Seriously? I mean, the system is already bankrupt, do you think cutting anything out the that system (besides in my personal opinion, nixing the whole thing) will do anything?
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-Malpractice is a concern of mine for few main reasons. The first being, I have to listen to the all my attendings bitc% about it all day, everyday, and frankly I agree with them. I mean I signed up to help people, not hurt people, and we as physicians should not be concerned about making decisions for a "what if" senerio. I'm human, I will make mistakes, but when I do, I hope and pray that it won't cost me my practice.
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The second main reason, have you even taken a glimpse at the debt our country has assumed over the past year? I don't really give a flip who's administration's fault it is (we all know it's Obama's, but that is besides the point right now), the issue is it needs to STOP. Spending one more TRILLION dollars on healthcare reform is not necessary, and in the end will only contribute to what is looking like our demise (going BANKRUPT to the world).
-
The current plan, and forgive me if I'm not entirely correct on this, but as of last week, it was the rich who were going to pay the higer taxes. Will excuse me, but I'm walking out of medical school with a combined total of $260K, and my wife $220ishK, leaving us a huge debt to pay back. Now I would really like to 1-keep my word and pay back my debt in a timely fashion, 2- live the american dream and have some sort of lifestyle (not lavish, but not hungry), and 3-give my future family a fighting chance to have the childhood and future I was so fortunate to have. Now if I'm going to be making lets say ball park $200K a year, I get taxed to high heaven because I'm over that magic number, how on God's green earth am I going to pay back my loans, buy a house, have kids, and try to even think about retirement when I'm 65?
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As far as I'm concerned, the current administration and current congress have screwed not only mine, but your future for as long as you can look forward.
 
If anything passes it will likely be very minimal, you have to realize that everything now is pretty much the same way it was during previous administrations so it's kind of hard to blame "Obamacare". He hasn't offered up tort, and maybe taxes will go up a few percent on the rich but this is nothing new, remember that the highest tax brackets were cut back during the Bush administration. Spending has increased with every administration since like 1950, and yea everyone says we should spend less but it never happens. Not even your beloved Ronald Reagan was able to stop the increase in spending during his term. The point being that it's stupid to blame this on Obama and stupid to think that everything is so different now than it has been. Because of the stagnation in government we most likely will ride this system out until the financial burden becomes too great to bear.
 
What I dont get is that instead of creating a convoluted 1000+ page bill that no one reads and is full of multiple different issues/interests, why dont we just have smaller bills.

For instance, everyone is on board with keeping the insurance companies from dropping people after they get sick. I mean that is the reason you buy insurance, in case you get sick. Even the most staunch opponents to Obamacare (ME) could agree on that and we could actually see some reform.

Why not pass smaller bills that both sides of the isle can agree on first. A few that come to mind:
- Banning insurance companies from dropping you if you get sick
- Covering pre-existing conditions

Then, only after those have passed can they work on the other stuff that will meet resistance- national health system etc. That way we limit pork barrel spending and all of the other crap that sneaks through on these huge bills. Then maybe, instead of a nanny state under the guise of reform we could actually have a high performing health system.
 
Why not pass smaller bills that both sides of the isle can agree on first. A few that come to mind:
- Banning insurance companies from dropping you if you get sick
- Covering pre-existing conditions

Because doing things like this actually makes sense and is the right way of going about making changes that impact 300 million people. Just like running clinical trails if you will (Cal, Mass.) of universal health care and observing the financially disastrous outcomes on a small scale makes sense before implementing a massive program that covers the whole country. The secret is that the people in charge of witting the current bill don't actually care about your health. What they do care about is making as many people dependent on their system and ensuring their continued reelection. They prey on their instant gratification desiring, short sighted constituents all under the guise of trying to helping them as opposed to all those mean uncaring people against the current proposed reform.
 
Why would the left do anything about it? They get ton's of money and stay in power largely b/c of the ambulance chaser's lobby. And, the politicians aren't gonna feel too bad for those "overpaid" physicians and they're $200k/yr salaries. 🙄

Yeah, the democratic party would come tumbling down if not for the "ambulance chaser" lobby.
 
-I chose the example of medical malpratice not because it was the best per say, but the issue I'm most sore with... I think the perfect example is the president proclaiming he is going to get the savings by cutting out the waste and fraud out of medicare and medicaid. Seriously? I mean, the system is already bankrupt, do you think cutting anything out the that system (besides in my personal opinion, nixing the whole thing) will do anything?
-
-Malpractice is a concern of mine for few main reasons. The first being, I have to listen to the all my attendings bitc% about it all day, everyday, and frankly I agree with them. I mean I signed up to help people, not hurt people, and we as physicians should not be concerned about making decisions for a "what if" senerio. I'm human, I will make mistakes, but when I do, I hope and pray that it won't cost me my practice.
-
The second main reason, have you even taken a glimpse at the debt our country has assumed over the past year? I don't really give a flip who's administration's fault it is (we all know it's Obama's, but that is besides the point right now), the issue is it needs to STOP. Spending one more TRILLION dollars on healthcare reform is not necessary, and in the end will only contribute to what is looking like our demise (going BANKRUPT to the world).
-
The current plan, and forgive me if I'm not entirely correct on this, but as of last week, it was the rich who were going to pay the higer taxes. Will excuse me, but I'm walking out of medical school with a combined total of $260K, and my wife $220ishK, leaving us a huge debt to pay back. Now I would really like to 1-keep my word and pay back my debt in a timely fashion, 2- live the american dream and have some sort of lifestyle (not lavish, but not hungry), and 3-give my future family a fighting chance to have the childhood and future I was so fortunate to have. Now if I'm going to be making lets say ball park $200K a year, I get taxed to high heaven because I'm over that magic number, how on God's green earth am I going to pay back my loans, buy a house, have kids, and try to even think about retirement when I'm 65?
-
As far as I'm concerned, the current administration and current congress have screwed not only mine, but your future for as long as you can look forward.


I can't agree more. 👍
 
Why not pass smaller bills that both sides of the isle can agree on first. A few that come to mind:
- Banning insurance companies from dropping you if you get sick
- Covering pre-existing conditions

Actually that would lead to chaos because many parts of a large bill depend on the other parts passing for it to have any impact. For example, all those little parts are mute if they cant pass something that would lower costs. It doesnt matter if your covered with your pre-existing condition if you cant afford it. Those smaller bills that everyone agrees on is dependent on the other parts that everyone argues over to have any real drastic effect.
 
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maybe taxes will go up a few percent on the rich but this is nothing new, remember that the highest tax brackets were cut back during the Bush administration. Spending has increased with every administration since like 1950, and yea everyone says we should spend less but it never happens. Not even your beloved Ronald Reagan was able to stop the increase in spending during his term. The point being that it's stupid to blame this on Obama and stupid to think that everything is so different now than it has been.

Here is a smart response...at least democrats dont try to play all of us dumb and act like they hold up the mantra for fiscal responsibility. They are more than willing to admit they will tax and spend. Republicans try to pull the wool over the cover and then blame the deficits and debt on democrats when they get their turn.
 
I can't agree more. 👍

Why don't you and Futuredoc both just quit medicine after you're done with med school? Since Obama is ruining the medical system, you both could get JDs and become malpractice lawyers. Then the lack of tort reform would help you! And as a bonus, it wouldn't even take you longer than residency.

The only problem I foresee is that when Sasha Obama becomes president and works towards tort reform, you'll have to go onto lawyers.com and say, "Obama is ruining your lawyering future!"
 
Why don't you and Futuredoc both just quit medicine after you're done with med school? Since Obama is ruining the medical system, you both could get JDs and become malpractice lawyers. Then the lack of tort reform would help you! And as a bonus, it wouldn't even take you longer than residency.

The only problem I foresee is that when Sasha Obama becomes president and works towards tort reform, you'll have to go onto lawyers.com and say, "Obama is ruining your lawyering future!"

Haha....no I do not want to quit medicine. Well thought out response though....thanks for the substance in your post. You are all being fooled. The best thing is none of you are actually reading the information in depth enough to understand what is really going on.

Obama wants to cut medicare funding and pay doctors the same. The AMA negotiated $247 billion in lack of reimbursement cuts although it was voted down today by both democrats and republicans. Yet, they won't add the $247 billion to the "budget" estimated by the CBO.

Try to look beyond the egomaniac's political skills which are damn good.
 
Why don't you and Futuredoc both just quit medicine after you're done with med school? Since Obama is ruining the medical system, you both could get JDs and become malpractice lawyers. Then the lack of tort reform would help you! And as a bonus, it wouldn't even take you longer than residency.

The only problem I foresee is that when Sasha Obama becomes president and works towards tort reform, you'll have to go onto lawyers.com and say, "Obama is ruining your lawyering future!"

There are certain aspects of his healthcare plan I agree with most notably his stance on pre-existing conditions. The public option is a disaster and it will become like medicaid. No physician will accept and that is why they are trying to placate the doctors now with "Doctor Fix."

Why do you find it necessary to make this personal? Is it because I disagree with you? Listen, I was the same way you are, but wait till you see what goes on in the hospitals. As mentioned above, you hear the attendings bitch about malpractice and how all this malpractice suits are rediculous. Even worse, the awards are astronomical.
 
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Why don't you and Futuredoc both just quit medicine after you're done with med school? Since Obama is ruining the medical system, you both could get JDs and become malpractice lawyers. Then the lack of tort reform would help you! And as a bonus, it wouldn't even take you longer than residency.

The only problem I foresee is that when Sasha Obama becomes president and works towards tort reform, you'll have to go onto lawyers.com and say, "Obama is ruining your lawyering future!"
People are entitled to disagree with the president's proposed overhaul of the health care system. You act like they're not.

Reality: some of the changes that are proposed are good! Some are non-existant. Some suck, really bad. People look at the pros and cons, weigh them, and make a decision. Not everyone will agree with you.
 
People are entitled to disagree with the president's proposed overhaul of the health care system. You act like they're not.

Reality: some of the changes that are proposed are good! Some are non-existant. Some suck, really bad. People look at the pros and cons, weigh them, and make a decision. Not everyone will agree with you.

I agree....he/she was rather aggressive. Some parts are good others are bad. Personally, I am against the public options for many reasons.
 
Haha....no I do not want to quit medicine. Well thought out response though....thanks for the substance in your post. You are all being fooled. The best thing is none of you are actually reading the information in depth enough to understand what is really going on.

Obama wants to cut medicare funding and pay doctors the same. The AMA negotiated $247 billion in lack of reimbursement cuts although it was voted down today by both democrats and republicans. Yet, they won't add the $247 billion to the "budget" estimated by the CBO.

Try to look beyond the egomaniac's political skills which are damn good.

Here's my problem with your posts. They are not true. That's my problem, and that's why I posted what I did.

The fact is, Democrats introduced a bill to re-adjust the Medicare payment structure. It would have cost $247 billion over 10 years. The AMA was in strong support of the bill. Republicans cried foul saying it would add to the deficit and was not being included in the general health care reform bills making their way through Congress. They made some fuss and 40 Republicans (all of them), 12 Democrats, and 1 Independent voted against it. Obama has nothing to do with this bill at all, yet you try to pin it on him like it's his fault. Who voted against this bill?

I don't understand your comment about it being added to the CBO budget. If you want to clarify, I'll try to respond.
 
There are certain aspects of his healthcare plan I agree with most notably his stance on pre-existing conditions. The public option is a disaster and it will become like medicaid. No physician will accept and that is why they are trying to placate the doctors now with "Doctor Fix."

Why do you find it necessary to make this personal? Is it because I disagree with you? Listen, I was the same way you are, but wait till you see what goes on in the hospitals. As mentioned above, you hear the attendings bitch about malpractice and how all this malpractice suits are rediculous. Even worse, the awards are astronomical.

My frustration here is two-fold. First, none of the bills has a public option in it right now, so it seems silly to be angry about it. Second, we have no idea what a public option will look like if it is entered. How do you know it will be terrible? And if it's like Medicaid, why do you have to accept it? Just refuse to see public option patients and eventually, no one will get the public option because they can't be seen by doctors on it.

In my opinion, the bills are all mostly sensible. In general, they put more regulation on insurance companies in terms of pre-existing conditions, premium differences for healthy vs. sick people, etc. They also include some subsidies for lower income earners. And yes, they put some taxes in to pay for it all. If you want a pretty extensive comparison of the bills, the Kaiser Family Foundation has some good info here. The bills really don't talk about doctor compensation at all.

Finally, if I made it personal, it was only in a good way. I merely gave one alternative option for you and futuredoc if you feel your skills and intellect would be more highly reimbursed in a different field. I actually complimented you if you think about it because I assumed you could both get into law school and succeed.

And if I'm guilty of "making it personal," then so are you. You pretty much dismiss me with "I was once a naive, silly person like you" and tell me how it really is. But you don't know me at all. I'm 28, I have a Master's degree, and I've worked several full-time, career-type jobs. I've spent plenty of time in hospitals and spoken with doctors about malpractice. Just because I have a different worldview than you doesn't mean I'm an imbecile or lack the life experience to know "the truth."
 
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People are entitled to disagree with the president's proposed overhaul of the health care system. You act like they're not.

Reality: some of the changes that are proposed are good! Some are non-existant. Some suck, really bad. People look at the pros and cons, weigh them, and make a decision. Not everyone will agree with you.

On the contrary, I love a good discussion and debate. The problem is that so few people want to actually debate politics. Most people want to throw out their ideology and tell people they're stupid for not believing the same thing. It would be pleasantly surprising if this could become a civil debate on the merits of the health care reform bills currently in Congress. I'm not holding my breath, though. 🙄
 
I agree....he/she was rather aggressive. Some parts are good others are bad. Personally, I am against the public options for many reasons.

What do you think about the health insurance exchanges in the bills? I mostly feel that they're kind of redundant. I mean, if the bill says that insurance companies can't change the premium except for age and smoking status (a few others in there, but I'm not sure), (and age is tightly regulated to be only a 4x difference between the lowest and highest premium) why bother with exchanges? It just seems like extra infrastructure (i.e. bureaucracy) to me. Why do we need to pool people at all?
 
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Here's my problem with your posts. They are not true. That's my problem, and that's why I posted what I did.

The fact is, Democrats introduced a bill to re-adjust the Medicare payment structure. It would have cost $247 billion over 10 years. The AMA was in strong support of the bill. Republicans cried foul saying it would add to the deficit and was not being included in the general health care reform bills making their way through Congress. They made some fuss and 40 Republicans (all of them), 12 Democrats, and 1 Independent voted against it. Obama has nothing to do with this bill at all, yet you try to pin it on him like it's his fault. Who voted against this bill?

I don't understand your comment about it being added to the CBO budget. If you want to clarify, I'll try to respond.[/QUOTE

I was making a statement that he basically knows how to spin the truth. The bill won't add to the budget but little do we know that he isn't counting the $247 billion in the price tag. You arn't an imbecile and I value your experience. Sometimes we need someone who has "been there done that."

At this present moment, I do not have time to look up enough information to hold a debate.

Good luck
 
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Why doesn't anyone apply common sense to the "salvation" comming out of Washington? Isn't the goal of health care reform to lower cost and increase access?

If thats the case then lets all take a breath and put aside our emotions and try to look at the proposals with objectivity.

If lowering cost is the goal then how is spending approximatly 1 trillion in additional money over 10 years going to lower cost? 😕 I fully understand that sometimes you have to invest in order to bring down cost long term, but what has been proposed that is going to lower cost? Paying doctors less? That logic implys that the reason health care is so expensive and not accessable is because doctors make too much money. Do people really believe that is the problem here? Ok so if thats the problem then how is spending 1 trillion going to save money? Isn't that 1 trillion going to be used to provide uninsured people with health care? So what happens after the 10 year estimate period is up? Is their no more additional cost? How are the newly covered people going to be covered after the 10 year period? Oh the government will have to spend more to continue providing coverage. You see where this goes, its an ongoing expense. The whole debate is about lowering cost not adding expense? THIS DOESN'T PASS THE SMELL TEST!

Another major point of the debate is providing access to the uninsured. Harry Reid has said he believes about 30 million people in the U.S. lack health care coverage. By his own admission the bill going through the senate will cover about 5 million of those people with an estimated cost of around 900 billion. Wait a minute! 900 billion to leave 25 million uninsured? THAT DOESN'T PASS THE SMELL TEST!

I realize that you can debate all the figures I have thrown out and get way more technical about the proposals however the overall point is valid. If common sense is applied these things dont make any sense at all. Why are so many people so quick to support things that don't make common sense?

Heres an idea. Why doesn't the federal government address cost and accessability at the same time without spending any money?

Here's how.

1: Past tort reform that caps malpractice law suits.

2: Allow for health insurance to be sold across state lines.

These measures would cost the taxpayers nothing and would make a big difference in cost. If lawmakers were truly serious about addressing cost and accessability then their proposals would include some form of the above mentioned ideas. The bills being debated don't include either one of these measures, so we can be sure that their playing games, not trying to fix problems.

Would these things completly fix the current system? Of course not, however they wouldn't cost anything and they could be done quickly. I believe that if we did something like this then we could take more time to come up with better ideas then we currently have and pass reform incrementally rather than pass a huge sweeping change that could be extremly expensive and almost impossible to get out of if it doesn't work. Our current system isn't so horrible that we have to completly overhaul it tomorrow, we can make incremental changes that will address the issues and not throw the whole thing out and start from scratch.

Reguardless of what your personal feeling on this issue are its something that will affect all of us.

Please when formulating your opinions/ideas on any of this stuff step back, take a breath, and apply common sense.
 
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One of the things I think would make the biggest long term difference would be to put a significant amount of resources into redefining "health class" in public school.

Health class should teach you about hypertension and diabetes and CAD and hypercholesterolemia. If you could get kids to realize at a young age that they are expected to eat right and exercise and understand the ramifications of their actions we might make a significant difference.

Maybe its naiive and I know that dare and sex ed were not the greatest attempts at reforming behavior in school age kids, and maybe my thought is subject to the same failure. I prefer to think dare and sex ed failed due to a lack of realism and moderation...not due to the theory that kids should be educated on these issues.

Not to mention that GYM class has been one of the first things to get tossed with state budget cuts. Which is awesome since kids do nothing but sit in front of the computer when they get home...
 
....The current plan, and forgive me if I'm not entirely correct on this, but as of last week, it was the rich who were going to pay the higer taxes. Will excuse me, but I'm walking out of medical school with a combined total of $260K, and my wife $220ishK, leaving us a huge debt to pay back. Now I would really like to 1-keep my word and pay back my debt in a timely fashion, 2- live the american dream and have some sort of lifestyle (not lavish, but not hungry), and 3-give my future family a fighting chance to have the childhood and future I was so fortunate to have. Now if I'm going to be making lets say ball park $200K a year, I get taxed to high heaven because I'm over that magic number, how on God's green earth am I going to pay back my loans, buy a house, have kids, and try to even think about retirement when I'm 65?

I agree. The problem is that income is a poor proxy for wealth. $200G salary is all that the public sees....which doesn't look so hot when you take into account the $50-60G per year many of us will have to pay back.
 
1: Past tort reform that caps malpractice law suits.

2: Allow for health insurance to be sold across state lines.

These measures would cost the taxpayers nothing and would make a big difference in cost. If lawmakers were truly serious about addressing cost and accessability then their proposals would include some form of the above mentioned ideas. The bills being debated don't include either one of these measures, so we can be sure that their playing games, not trying to fix problems.
The problem with just passing only these bills are that, like another poster said, these would do little for taxpayers and doctors alone. If anything, it would do what Medicare Part D did for drug companies (a huge cash giveaway on our tab). Tort reform is definitely needed, but capping malpractice law suits won't do the trick because a) insurance companies won't necessarily lower premiums and b) the number of lawsuits may just increase as a result. Something else, like an expert panel to determine the legitimacy of the lawsuit, needs to be used instead to educate the juries and judges about the issues and screen out frivolous lawsuits. What's needed is not a cap on lawsuits, but prevention of many of these cases from proceeding in the first place. A cap for payouts would just increase the insurance company's profit margin, and there may not be any incentive to reduce premiums. A mechanism needs to be in place to protect doctors from excess costs, but should still give patients some way to fight back if they have unfortunately been wronged by a doctor out of negligence (yes, as untrue as it sounds to some people here, it does happen, and I see it at my hospital as well). This has been tried in several states, and caps did not reduce costs in several states. For some states, it did make the environment more hospitable for doctors, but it did not impact costs.

Another thing I continually hear is deregulating health insurance even more, including insurance to be sold across state lines. This sounds good on paper, but it would possibly exacerbate our current problems more. For one, health insurance companies are exempt from anti-trust laws (McCarran-Ferguson Act); if the health insurance companies start to become an oligopoly (which has happened already in most states), we have no way to break it up. Again, how does that reduce cost? It's more like, how much more will the insurance companies rake in because of that?

In addition, selling insurance across state lines implies that either states will have to reduce regulation on insurance, or the restrictions will be so high that a company would not see any point in trying to expand into another state, especially when another company already has a strong foothold in it. If the former were to happen, insurance companies would only maintain to the bare minimums for their plans, and it would lead to worse quality insurance. I guarantee you denials, premium fixes, and lower coverage would occur; basically, we'd see in the health care industry what happened in the banking industry when the Glass-Steagall Act was repealed in 1999. If insurance were to be sold across state lines, you'd have to repeal the anti-trust laws and regulate the hell out of the insurance companies in order to see any benefit.

The reason the bill is being passed in its form is because the result is greater than the sum of the individual parts. A lot of the "common-sense" reform means nothing if passed slowly and incrementally because without the other laws and regulations to safeguard each other, there are loop-holes and methods around it (outlaw "prexisting conditions" only? Expect to see more technicality-based denials or higher premiums to maintain profit margin).

If lowering cost is the goal then how is spending approximatly 1 trillion in additional money over 10 years going to lower cost?
Current estimates are now at $871 billion, and this is an aggregate sum, not just on the public option. The projections are that the savings will come through saved costs in administration, replacing the current tax exclusion for health insurance with an income tax deduction, new tax payments to employers to the fed government, premiums by individuals who have purchased the plan, and lower health insurance plans due to private companies having to compete with the public option. The misconception people have is that the public option is free. It is NOT FREE, you have to purchase it like any other health plan; you have to pay a monthly/yearly fee, and there is a premium to it. The issue isn't about giving away free care to the uninsured via the government, it's providing an affordable option to the uninsured via the government.

Paying doctors less? That logic implys that the reason health care is so expensive and not accessable is because doctors make too much money.
Current proposals for the public option have ranged for medicare reimbursements + 5-10% or price negotiable. You're right that it does take some investment to bring costs down long-term, but right now it doesn't seem that doctors are going to be paid less; the reason so is that both sides aren't willing to impede on the "patient-physician" relationship. If you want to be pissed at people in the government right now for pay-related issues, be pissed at the senators that recently blocked the recent Medicare bill proposed by Sen. Stabenow to replace the outdated SGR with a better reimbursement formula. Fixing the Medicare system is one of the core things needed to "bend the cost curve", and we can start by closing the loopholes, abuses, fraud, double-billing, and other acts that's contributing to this problem.
 
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Another thing I continually hear is deregulating health insurance even more, including insurance to be sold across state lines. This sounds good on paper, but it would possibly exacerbate our current problems more. For one, health insurance companies are exempt from anti-trust laws (McCarran-Ferguson Act); if the health insurance companies start to become an oligopoly (which has happened already in most states), we have no way to break it up. Again, how does that reduce cost? It's more like, how much more will the insurance companies rake in because of that?
Stopping insurance sales at state lines is regulation; it's just regulation that some insurance companies are benefiting from. And, anti-trust is one of the most significant means of protection the government has for the people against large companies. That needs to be dealt with.

IMHO, remove the anti-trust exception, open across state lines, implement tort reform to will drastically reduce the practice of defensive medicine, and figure out how to get a high risk pool going.

That'd be a good start IMHO.
 
The problem with just passing only these bills are that, like another poster said, these would do little for taxpayers and doctors alone. .

Another thing I continually hear is deregulating health insurance even more, including insurance to be sold across state lines. This sounds good on paper, but it would possibly exacerbate our current problems more.

This line of thinking misses the fundamental implication of passing said law. Your missing the forrest for the trees so to speak. Let me ask you this. When you go to buy gas and you have the chevron and exxon across the street from each other and one is selling gas for $0.10 cheaper what do you do? You buy the cheap gas? Why? Because gas is basically a commodity and for the same product all things equal most people want the cheaper price.

This is what would happen if you could sell insurance across state lines. The implication is people could shop dozens of insurance providers as opposed to the handful that are sold in state. This competition would create competitive pressure on insurance companies causing price to fall. Consumers such as me and you would benifit from this.

In most cases it is the employer that would do the shopping around since most people get insurance through their employer. This would benifit the average joe, because their insurance premiums would be cheaper, and it would benifit the company providing the insurance, since most of the insurance premium is paid by the company providing the insurance, not the actual person being covered.

Your comment about anti trust laws being applied to insurance companies, as well as a few other regulatory issues would have to be addressed, but the general issue is correct. Market forces create competitive pressure which force producers (insurance companies) to provide products at prices consumers are wiling to pay. Plain and simple. Why do you think insurance companies are lobbing against this very idea?

I will say regulation to protect consumers is good and benifits us all however the basic market principals are proven and are not overly complex. Current ideas comming out of congress are not looking at obvious solutions to the problem, this is why their is so much frustration from the general public with proposed health care legislation.

You can bring up technical points to make arguments on way or the other however the basic idea is simple. Actually the catch phrase used by congress is correct. Competition is needed among the insurance companies. However competition doesn't need to come from government it needs to come from the insurance companies themselves. It would be simple and cheap to make it happen.
 
This line of thinking misses the fundamental implication of passing said law. Your missing the forrest for the trees so to speak. Let me ask you this. When you go to buy gas and you have the chevron and exxon across the street from each other and one is selling gas for $0.10 cheaper what do you do? You buy the cheap gas? Why? Because gas is basically a commodity and for the same product all things equal most people want the cheaper price.

This is what would happen if you could sell insurance across state lines. The implication is people could shop dozens of insurance providers as opposed to the handful that are sold in state. This competition would create competitive pressure on insurance companies causing price to fall. Consumers such as me and you would benifit from this.

This would be fine and true if the health insurance system worked like a econ101 case, but unfortunately for health insurance it's not quite the same (hence why economics is known as an "inexact" science). It's not a fair example to compare it to gas; your example is absolutely true for how gasoline is sold, but the underlying assumption of that argument is that the types of gas you get is equal from each vendor due to federal regulations of how gas is graded. As long as that gas is good enough to power your car, you obviously want the cheapest option. For health insurance, it's more than just obtaining it, it's making sure that the plans will cover you when you get sick with chronic conditions while remaining affordable. This is where things get tricky.

When you allow insurance to be sold across state lines, it becomes a race to the bottom when it comes to coverage. Insurance companies will move off to states with the least restrictions and set up shop; in order for other states to keep businesses and to take advantage of these lower plans, they will themselves reduce coverage regulations as well. This sets up a feedback system that could eventually lead to junk insurance with minimum coverage for maximum profit. We already have an example of this already! It's not just coincidence that most credit card companies operate out of Delaware. As soon as credit card companies were able to operate across state lines, regulation was continually decreased until the current state we have now, where companies can gut you with up to a 25% interest rate. You're right that insurance plans could be simple and cheap, but they could be worthless in coverage.

There are also other problems that need to be addressed with health insurance as well before it can be sold across state lines. For one, something needs to be done about the individual market so that there is more pooling and guaranteed coverage. Health insurance brokers currently take very little risk in the market because the costly chronic patients can be offset by jacking up premiums or just denying coverage. Health insurance differs from things like car and property insurance because a) these types of insurance take much more risk in the market and b) it's much easier to control the risks and the events are often one-time events; if you crash your car and have liability insurance, you get a lump sum payment to cover most of the costs. Your plan will go up in cost, but the lump sum payment to replace your car will have resulted in either a neutral or positive benefit. With health conditions, you may get a nonpreventable condition that you can't necessarily prevent or contract chronic conditions that requires continual coverage. There's a lot of technical details to it, but the main crux is that health insurance isn't equitable to the other types of goods out there.

I can agree that more competition is needed in the market, and I would be open to insurance being sold across state lines if a public option was created in tandem with it. A public option would force insurance companies to become more viable for consumers. Several studies have already pointed this out and have also shown that insurance companies won't go out of business unless they continue their current practices.

If your issue is simply against any sort of government regulation and intervention, then I think we'll have to agree to disagree then.
 
You're right that insurance plans could be simple and cheap, but they could be worthless in coverage.

This is where consumer choice comes in. Your right the gas analogy is an oversimplified example but the basic point holds true. You brought up car insurance, and its a decient example and fits my point. You can buy cheap and bare minimum car insurance or you can buy much more. People make the choice thats best for them and their budget. This is what would happen to health insurance. Not everyone needs the same level of health insurance. Just as with car insurance states would set a mininum acceptable level of coverage (thats how it is in my state anyway) and any additional insurance desired is my choice to buy or not. Plain and simple, I can taylor my policy to my needs.

The biggest probem I have with a public option is not that I don't want regulation or consumer protection as I prefer to think of it. I don't want the government selling anything. Why? Look at their track record. (it goes back to my common sense post) Give me one example of a U.S. government agency being run efficiently and within budget. Their isn't many. So why would one expect this to be any different? Again apply common sense.

On another note give me one example of any other country running a universal health care system that is effective. I realize that effective is a subjective term, however most would agree that other contries using a government health care option have plenyy of problems of their own.

So the basic thrust of my argument is Yes our system has problems. Yes something needs to be done. However putting government in charge of providing health insurance doesn't sit well with me given their track record. Look at medicare? How well have they managed that? Why would we want to give a failing entity more responsibility?

On another note, how can private industry that has to balance their budget compete with a insurance company that doesn't have to make a profit? The governement could and would put private insurance out of business. Dont believe me? Look at Canada. Thats how their system started, with a government "option". That "option" put private insurance out of business and then it was the only option.

Bottom line, something needs and should be done. However don't trust the government to "fix" it. Once they have that power, its very difficult to reign it in.

Government should regulate the market to protect consumers. They should have a role in the reform of health care. However trusting them with "selling" us insurance should not be something we trust our tax dollers with.
 
This is where consumer choice comes in. Your right the gas analogy is an oversimplified example but the basic point holds true. You brought up car insurance, and its a decient example and fits my point. You can buy cheap and bare minimum car insurance or you can buy much more. People make the choice thats best for them and their budget. This is what would happen to health insurance. Not everyone needs the same level of health insurance. Just as with car insurance states would set a mininum acceptable level of coverage (thats how it is in my state anyway) and any additional insurance desired is my choice to buy or not. Plain and simple, I can taylor my policy to my needs.

The biggest probem I have with a public option is not that I don't want regulation or consumer protection as I prefer to think of it. I don't want the government selling anything. Why? Look at their track record. (it goes back to my common sense post) Give me one example of a U.S. government agency being run efficiently and within budget. Their isn't many. So why would one expect this to be any different? Again apply common sense.

If you undercut and shift funding from any program to fund something else, of course it will have problems, because you took away its funding! Btw, the NIH (25-40% rate of return), EPA, CDC have had good overall track histories (you can nitpick certain incidents but you have to look at everything in its entirety). And please, stop trying to imply that because someone disagrees with what you think in, they're not applying common sense.

On another note give me one example of any other country running a universal health care system that is effective. I realize that effective is a subjective term, however most would agree that other contries using a government health care option have plenyy of problems of their own.

Taiwan has a public-private insurance system with government involvement, and if you ask any of its citizens to ditch it, the majority would disagree with you. Yes, it has its problems (namely, the fees are too low and need to be raised to offset the borrowing, but in US dollars this is like charging $20 extra per person for a visit), but currently the consensus in Taiwan is that most people are happy with it the way it is. Every health care system has its problems, but the argument about their problems sometimes ignores the fact that our health care system has just as many, if not more problems.

So the basic thrust of my argument is Yes our system has problems. Yes something needs to be done. However putting government in charge of providing health insurance doesn't sit well with me given their track record. Look at medicare? How well have they managed that? Why would we want to give a failing entity more responsibility?

The way one sees Medicare's success depends with what merits one decides to base it on. Does Medicare have funding issues? Yes. Is it perfect? Of course not, there are plenty of instances of fraud and overbilling. Does the system need to be updated for the current times? Yes, see the SGR issue. Is Medicare efficient? Surprisingly, yes, because of its lower overhead and standardization. If you underfund ANY sort of system, public or private, it will have problems and it will fail if underfunded long enough. I would also debate it as a "failing" entity, but that's another topic. Don't equate the quality of the system from the circumstances surrounding it (like funding, fraud, etc.)

On another note, how can private industry that has to balance their budget compete with a insurance company that doesn't have to make a profit? The governement could and would put private insurance out of business. Dont believe me? Look at Canada. Thats how their system started, with a government "option". That "option" put private insurance out of business and then it was the only option.

The government in Canada had always been heavily involved in medicare care since the beginning of the 20th century. I think it's quite a far stretch to say a public option led to its current system.

Oh, and there is private insurance in Canada; about 30% is paid via private sector. There is actually a good amount of private sector involvement in Canadian health care, but honestly, I don't even see how talking about Canada's health care is very relevant because the proposals in Congress are not even close to Canada's system.

Bottom line, something needs and should be done. However don't trust the government to "fix" it. Once they have that power, its very difficult to reign it in.

Government should regulate the market to protect consumers. They should have a role in the reform of health care. However trusting them with "selling" us insurance should not be something we trust our tax dollers with.

I agree with part of your statements; government can get too much power in certain areas at times. However, the same private insurance corporations because of the sheer power of their lobbyists and influence on politicians. Personally, my view is that with a public option, if there is a wrong, you can at least protest it, take political action to bring attention to it, picket, etc., because the government is beholden to the people. With private insurance, you can do the above but most likely they'll just laugh you off. The latter part is where I think we will have to disagree, and I don't think debating about it will change either of our minds that much.
 
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The latter part is where I think we will have to disagree, and I don't think debating about it will change either of our minds that much.

I will agree to disagree with you on the principal, this is fine. For the record though you are incorrect if you feel like I'm saying that your not applying common sense because I disagree with you. Your entitled to your opinion and I respect that.

The U.S. government has a very long history of being overbudget and inefficient across numerous progroms over decades. You can debate this if you want and you can possibly find an exception to this, but its just that an exception.

I say that anyone who all the sudden believes that the U.S. government will provide and administer healthcare and do it efficiently and within their stated budget is not applying common sense. Such person is not looking at the overall track record of the government with objectivity.

Is it possible that government provided healthcare could be cost effictive and efficient? Yes anything is possible. Is it likely based on past results? Not very.

That is not a personal attack on anyone, however deep down we all know that its highly unlikly that the promises comming out of Washington will materialize as presented. The path of a government provided health option is an entitlement that can potentially be more costly than any other expense we currently have.

If you support such entitlement that is your right. I am open minded about health care reform, and believe it is needed. I'm am extremly skeptal about the government "selling" me anything, including stamps which by the way get more expensive every few years.
 
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However, the same private insurance corporations because of the sheer power of their lobbyists and influence on politicians. Personally, my view is that with a public option, if there is a wrong, you can at least protest it, take political action to bring attention to it, picket, etc., because the government is beholden to the people. With private insurance, you can do the above but most likely they'll just laugh you off.

Who are insurance companies lobbying? politicians!
If the politicians did their job and represented their constituents, the insurance companies could lobby until they're blue in the face and it wouldn't matter.

But, in your logic it is best to punish the corporations by turning COMPLETE CONTROL over to, wait....here it comes.... politicians

that is not logical.

“National health care is the mother of all entitlement programs, for through it the Statist controls not only the material wealth of the individual but his physical well-being.”
 
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