Why SOME Clinical Volunteering Sucks

[Cherry212]

I'm running around all day so do not have the time to give thoughtful responses. I think everyone so far has brought up some deep valid points. There are a couple of things I would like to add.

For the non-trads, did you volunteer in similar activities before you were premed. In fact, for anyone who wasnt a premed since freshman year, did you volunteer before starting the journey? If you weren't volunteering before becoming premed, you might need to ask yourself why you started in the first place? Was it a random occurence because of sheer altruism?

Before being premed I volunteered through my church when I wanted to and was able to. I did it because I wanted to. Now I feel like I'm being forced to provide free labor in the hospital on a weekly basis. The church volunteering will not get me the hours I "need."

I read a great thread yesterday about the admissions process being BS. The thread was locked because the OP was banned. There was a big divide between those who realize that volunteering is a hoop, and those who were up in arms because of this blasphemy.

So let's put it like this... Lots of premeds will volunteer because it is an unwritten requirement. Many would never have thought about volunteering until becoming premed. I'm sure plenty of members here started volunteering when they became premed. Not all, but some.

Now, ask yourselves this. I'm sure you all have friends. I'm sure plenty of them are not premed. How many of them have CONSISTENTLY volunteered at an organization? I'm guessing you have friends that have never volunteered. I know I do. I like a lot of them and they are good people. Do you judge them? Didn't think so. Why is there a double standard for premeds?

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[scarshapedstar]

I take it you want doctors out at free clinics, which is great! However, it's not a model for a national health system.

It's not? What do you have to pay when you walk into a clinic in Canada? What is a free clinic if not a clinic that anyone can go to for free?

At this point the distinction is invariably made on the basis of where the money comes from, e.g. "well those are funded by taxes whereas ours are funded by churches and stuff out of the goodness of our hearts and that's better". Not really true, though, because there are government grants backing even the most religiously affiliated clinics.

As far as the system goes, like I said, our system is only 35% private. That's my real objection to "medicine is a business and doctors have to be businessmen"... it's really just not accurate.

Now as far as making the best use of the resources available, absolutely, doctors should be able to do that. Those decisions happen on every level of the system. "The best use", of course, is where people disagree; there's a big difference between a salaried doctor working to improve public health and a fee-for-service doctor trying to get the highest profit margin on every vial of Botox, and that's what I mean by altruism.

 

[dmf2682]

I'm running around all day so do not have the time to give thoughtful responses. I think everyone so far has brought up some deep valid points. There are a couple of things I would like to add.

For the non-trads, did you volunteer in similar activities before you were premed. In fact, for anyone who wasnt a premed since freshman year, did you volunteer before starting the journey? If you weren't volunteering before becoming premed, you might need to ask yourself why you started in the first place? Was it a random occurence because of sheer altruism?

Before being premed I volunteered through my church when I wanted to and was able to. I did it because I wanted to. Now I feel like I'm being forced to provide free labor in the hospital on a weekly basis. The church volunteering will not get me the hours I "need."

I read a great thread yesterday about the admissions process being BS. The thread was locked because the OP was banned. There was a big divide between those who realize that volunteering is a hoop, and those who were up in arms because of this blasphemy.

So let's put it like this... Lots of premeds will volunteer because it is an unwritten requirement. Many would never have thought about volunteering until becoming premed. I'm sure plenty of members here started volunteering when they became premed. Not all, but some.

Now, ask yourselves this. I'm sure you all have friends. I'm sure plenty of them are not premed. How many of them have CONSISTENTLY volunteered at an organization? I'm guessing you have friends that have never volunteered. I know I do. I like a lot of them and they are good people. Do you judge them? Didn't think so. Why is there a double standard for premeds?

I volunteered regularly, sure. So much that when the folks at the leukemia and lymphoma society asked why I volunteered so much I told them it was court ordered 🙂


Seriously though. I did it to meet people, give back, and to make up for my otherwise abrasive personality.

 

[chiapet874]

It's not? What do you have to pay when you walk into a clinic in Canada? What is a free clinic if not a clinic that anyone can go to for free?

At this point the distinction is invariably made on the basis of where the money comes from, e.g. "well those are funded by taxes whereas ours are funded by churches and stuff out of the goodness of our hearts and that's better". Not really true, though, because there are government grants backing even the most religiously affiliated clinics.

As far as the system goes, like I said, our system is only 35% private. That's my real objection to "medicine is a business and doctors have to be businessmen"... it's really just not accurate.

Now as far as making the best use of the resources available, absolutely, doctors should be able to do that. Those decisions happen on every level of the system. "The best use", of course, is where people disagree; there's a big difference between a salaried doctor working to improve public health and a fee-for-service doctor trying to get the highest profit margin on every vial of Botox, and that's what I mean by altruism.

Lower the cost of medical school, then we'll talk

 

[Dzerzhinsky]

Why exactly did you choose to do more than those other students getting away with four?

Because it was the commitment required by the volunteering opportunity I chose, and I'd rather put in more hours at something I enjoy doing instead of taking the hospital volunteering route.

(And, yes, I considered that route as well.)

Unless you had a 4.0 in your pre-reqs and a 45T on your MCAT, you must realize that you could have spent more time improving your grades or MCAT score.

I have a 4.0 in my postbacc work so far with more than twenty-five credits complete. (I wasn't interested in medicine in undergrad the first time around, so we won't talk about that.) I may lose it this term, but we'll see. Haven't taken the MCAT yet. I don't expect a 45T, though. The cost-benefit ratio to achieve that is not worth it to me.

Great ECs will make a great student better, but they will not make a mediocre student a great student.

Yes, this is true. But given the posts in the nontrad forum from real live nontrads who made it to medical school, I'm pretty sure that it's going to be worse than my 14-credit semester full-time job 10+ hours a week of volunteering, and if I can't hack that, better to find out now.

So for those 1000 plus hour gunners, unless you had a 4.0 and 45T on your MCAT, can you really tell me that cleaning the sheets or other menial tasks were a better use of time then studying?

As mentioned above, I explicitly chose a volunteering opportunity where I wouldn't be changing sheets or fetching water. I did that for me, because I wanted to make sure that I didn't discover "Oh, hey! I really don't like sick people after all!" once I started the clinical years. If I'm going to figure that out, I'd rather figure it out before I quit my six-figure job and take a spot someone else could have, thanks.

For the non-trads, did you volunteer in similar activities before you were premed.

No, not in similar activities. I went several years without any type of volunteering when I was finishing up my masters' and working about sixty-five hours a week, and I felt bad about it. I just didn't have the time, though.

If you weren't volunteering before becoming premed, you might need to ask yourself why you started in the first place? Was it a random occurence because of sheer altruism?

Definitely not. I did it for me. I knew I needed it to get in, but even if I hadn't, I would have wanted to try it on and smell patients, as LizzyM says, before I decided to make the jump.

 

[scarshapedstar]

From my experience, as one of those real live nontrads who crawled into med school on their hands and knees, the point of volunteering as a nontrad/underdog is to make connections or at least get a good rec letter. If you care about what you do and you do it well then people will notice and they will want to help you get in to med school. You never know when you'll meet someone who can get you on the inside track.

Does that make it fake? Not really. If you spend 1,000 hours getting in the way and asking for busywork so that you can write 1,000 hours on your application then people won't help you so much. Adcoms kinda take those numbers with a grain of salt anyway since they're invariably inflated to some degree.

I won't say that working like a slave to get accepted is absolutely positively 100% altruistic. Obviously if you want to be purely altruistic you shouldn't even be listing it on your app. But it's more altruistic than half-assing an EC or just making one up.

That said, if your experience is like Cherry's in that you work like a slave and people are ungrateful or hostile, then go somewhere else.

 

[CaveJohnsonHere]

For the non-trads, did you volunteer in similar activities before you were premed. In fact, for anyone who wasnt a premed since freshman year, did you volunteer before starting the journey?

I volunteered more before I was premed than I did after I decided on medicine. I was a Big Brother for 9 months before moving for college, volunteered to tutor kids in grades 6-9 while in school, then volunteered in various capacities at a GLBT community center. I also volunteered with the chevra kadisha (volunteers who prepare bodies for Jewish burial). That was probably the most meaningful for me. I did it because I enjoyed it, and I felt strongly about the things I was volunteering for.

This was after I had already been working in a hospital as an or tech for a year and a half, and I continued working there through school while planning on law school. When I finally decided on medicine after some science classes and working with a surgeon privately, I was so busy that I didn't really have a lot of time to volunteer. I'm getting ready to start volunteering in a PT clinic at my current job, but that's just for my own edification.

Now, ask yourselves this. I'm sure you all have friends. I'm sure plenty of them are not premed. How many of them have CONSISTENTLY volunteered at an organization? I'm guessing you have friends that have never volunteered. I know I do. I like a lot of them and they are good people. Do you judge them? Didn't think so. Why is there a double standard for premeds?

My only friend who consistently volunteers (at a pediatric TBI clinic) is not a premed by any stretch. He has an AS in something from a community college and works as a stand-up comedian.

 

[Cherry212]

From my experience, as one of those real live nontrads who crawled into med school on their hands and knees, the point of volunteering as a nontrad/underdog is to make connections or at least get a good rec letter. If you care about what you do and you do it well then people will notice and they will want to help you get in to med school. You never know when you'll meet someone who can get you on the inside track.

Does that make it fake? Not really. If you spend 1,000 hours getting in the way and asking for busywork so that you can write 1,000 hours on your application then people won't help you so much. Adcoms kinda take those numbers with a grain of salt anyway since they're invariably inflated to some degree.

I won't say that working like a slave to get accepted is absolutely positively 100% altruistic. Obviously if you want to be purely altruistic you shouldn't even be listing it on your app. But it's more altruistic than half-assing an EC or just making one up.

That said, if your experience is like Cherry's in that you work like a slave and people are ungrateful or hostile, then go somewhere else.

What you said about not listing experiences if you are truly altruistic is very insightful. I know that there were events that I did at church that I didn't list on my AMCAS.

I think that a lot of those premeds who do end up doing clinical volunteering for the sake of fulfilling a requirement end up in a hostile environment. I think in contrast to what some of the more caring members on here posted, it might not be such a bad thing for them. If they have no desire to be there, then they can sit and play with their phones or end u playing the system by not showing up as was described earlier. No, I'm nt saying this is a good thing to do. But at the end of the day, they can list the activity and not really put much effort into something they genuinely do not want to do. I think that looking at the actions that many premeds take to play the system and even some SDN members who aren't fans of the requirement demonstrate that they don't want to be there but need to do it. It is just about impossible to get into medical school without the pre-reqs and MCAT, and for the majority, getting into medical school without ANY TYPE of volunteering is near impossible. Let's no be be naive here. There are plenty of premeds who will hate volunteering the way they hate some of their classes. Should we judge them and assume they will be terrible physicians? No, look back at my argument about friends who never volunteered before.

In response to recent posters who enjoy their volunteer experiences, I would like to say that it is great you do. I enjoy doing things through my church. Just as an "anti-volunteering" member gets told that it's not right to assume most premeds aren't jumping through a so-called volunteering hoop, it's also not right for those who enjoy volunteering to assume that most premeds actually do this because they want to. There are two sides and those in the middle. They all exist, and all have their valid viewpoints.

 

[centrigeugle]

I am apparently one of the more brutal realists in here, in that I think the vast majority of volunteering by premeds is self-interested.

That being said...who cares? It's important to remember that even if one learns to interact with people and deal with patients for an ultimately selfish end, they still acquired those skills. I enjoy lots of my volunteering - but I probably wouldn't have pursued it in the first place without the goal of medical school.

 

[scarshapedstar]

Now that you mention it, from an ecological / evolutionary standpoint, altruism is simply deferred self-interest.

 

[CaveJohnsonHere]

I am apparently one of the more brutal realists in here, in that I think the vast majority of volunteering by premeds is self-interested.

Totally agree.

That being said...who cares? It's important to remember that even if one learns to interact with people and deal with patients for an ultimately selfish end, they still acquired those skills. I enjoy lots of my volunteering - but I probably wouldn't have pursued it in the first place without the goal of medical school.

👍

 

[Cherry212]

I am apparently one of the more brutal realists in here, in that I think the vast majority of volunteering by premeds is self-interested.

That being said...who cares? It's important to remember that even if one learns to interact with people and deal with patients for an ultimately selfish end, they still acquired those skills. I enjoy lots of my volunteering - but I probably wouldn't have pursued it in the first place without the goal of medical school.

Very well put, and I agree with you for most part. I actually spoke to my pastor about the ethics of volunteering fakely for self-interest. He said it is a good deed because it is helping the volunteer and the patients.

The world is not black and white though. In some cases, I feel like the volunteer experience can be very negative. If a smaller hospital or clinic was extremely dependent on volunteers to help the system run, then the premed volunteers who blow off volunteering by falsely signing in or not showing up at all can have detrimental effects. I know at the larger urban hospitals with volunteer waitlists, this is not an issue, but it is with small hospitals with limited resources. As I mentioned before, a resident told me that his hospital would never allow premeds to work the vital volunteer positions. So in this case, a premed volunteer blowing the shift off will not have an impact.

So based on what you said, yes a volunteer who completely does the bare minimum, assuming they always show up to work, will get some benefit from seeing the hospital environment, and the staff and pafients will benefit from the little amount of bare labor provided. This will not yield the same results as someone who genuinely wants to it, but there are some results. In the case of volunteers blowing off their responsibilities at a hospital that actually depends on them, well they should not be there at all. The volunteer gets nothing out of the experience by sitting out at home, and the hospital loses. As long as the volunteer is not caught, they are winning. It's sad that the hospital loses here.

 

[dmf2682]

Isn't Christianity just deferred self interest too ?

 

[SteveJMarist]

I have been accepted to top choices, and I still do clinical volunteering. I think it is a commitment thing- many people in my department know me by name, and I feel like an important asset when I am there. That, and I just love being at the hospital. I do agree that there is a great deal of nonsense with clinical volunteering amongst premeds, though. I think I was very fortunate to have found a meaningful position, although it took me a really long time to find it.

 

[Drogo]

I hate how many clinical volunteers are treated. They become free slave labor, and are never thanked for the hours they put in. This is not reflective of all clinical experiences of course. There are the go-getters on SDN who are integral parts of the ER staff because they take initiative. This only represents some of the premed population. Otherwise you have apathetic students who stand around and FAKE their altruism because it is an unwritten rule. It sucks for so many students because having paid opportunities can help pay bills, but.instead they must answer phones, file paperwork, or change sheets.

I volunteer through my church because I genuinely enjoy it. I volunteered before I ever decided to play the medical school admissions game. Volunteering should not be an unwrittrn rule. People should do to because they have a genuine desire to do so. Just make it an official requirement so students can just do it and not try to BS their way through an interview by putting up a fake front. It's jusf not right...

What are your thoughts? If it weren't a hoop, would you still volunteer? Be honest, do you seriously think college students want to give up hours of a day to clean beds? Also if weren't a.hoop, why would someone make a bad physician if they did not volunteer? I think you can be a perfectly fine doctor even if you didn't spend your weekends cleaning sheets. In fact, I think premeds can be taught to be even better doctors if they aren't forced to lie about something like this.

I volunteer and yes I feel like a part of the team, but I wouldn't go as far as saying I'm an 'integral' part like say a nurse or a physician. The teams love me and are always thankful, but at the end of the day I'm only a volunteer who enjoys helping out as much as possible.

Yes it's a hoop and a necessary one for some in my opinion. This is primarily for those who are iffy about going into the medical field. I feel bad for all those you mentioned that hate volunteering in a clinical setting. I'm hoping it's just their hospital's volunteer setup they hate and not the actual environment. Who knows the medical field might not be for them at all. I genuinely enjoy volunteering in the ER most of the time and I always strive to get some great patient contact every time I volunteer. It may feel superficial at times, but I do get a lot of patient contact and some great insight. It's all about choosing to be proactive about it.

I don't mind rocking out some quick scutwork and helping the tech aides/nurses/cnas here or there. Yet, when I would rather help patients out they understand completely.

In my opinion you're at the wrong place. The volunteer chairman who oversees my program, makes it's a priority and a mission to provide every volunteer with a great positive atmosphere where you do really gain something out of it. Maybe I got lucky?

 

[Cherry212]

I volunteer and yes I feel like a part of the team, but I wouldn't go as far as saying I'm an 'integral' part like say a nurse or a physician. The teams love me and are always thankful, but at the end of the day I'm only a volunteer who enjoys helping out as much as possible.

Yes it's a hoop and a necessary one for some in my opinion. This is primarily for those who are iffy about going into the medical field. I feel bad for all those you mentioned that hate volunteering in a clinical setting. I'm hoping it's just their hospital's volunteer setup they hate and not the actual environment. Who knows the medical field might not be for them at all. I genuinely enjoy volunteering in the ER most of the time and I always strive to get some great patient contact every time I volunteer. It may feel superficial at times, but I do get a lot of patient contact and some great insight. It's all about choosing to be proactive about it.

I don't mind rocking out some quick scutwork and helping the tech aides/nurses/cnas here or there. Yet, when I would rather help patients out they understand completely.

In my opinion you're at the wrong place. The volunteer chairman who oversees my program, makes it's a priority and a mission to provide every volunteer with a great positive atmosphere where you do really gain something out of it. Maybe I got lucky?

it is fantastic that you are having a great experience so far. It is refreshing to hear that the volunteer chairman actually makes sure that the volunteers are treated with respect. 🙂

I don't think most premeds hate the environment. I think they might hate being treated like garbage, like at some hospitals, and then for time reasons. Being a premed is a significant amount of work. The classes are hard and so is studying for the MCAT! You can't "fake" your grades or MCAT score, but volunteering is another issue. That's why you hear of students embellishing hours all the way to playing the system by not showing up at all.

The students have their plates full, and while a few hours a week doesn't sound like a lot, it can really cut right into your day. That's why some students don't show up studying for exams. Some may not go because they just don't want to be there in the first place. Maybe they want to spend their weekend evenings out with friends. And you know what? I think that is perfectly fine. As I mentioned before, you probably have many non-premed friends that never officially volunteered before, but they ARE still great people that can be considered altruistic too.

 

[AllDaWEI]

it is fantastic that you are having a great experience so far. It is refreshing to hear that the volunteer chairman actually makes sure that the volunteers are treated with respect. 🙂

I don't think most premeds hate the environment. I think they might hate being treated like garbage, like at some hospitals, and then for time reasons. Being a premed is a significant amount of work. The classes are hard and so is studying for the MCAT! You can't "fake" your grades or MCAT score, but volunteering is another issue. That's why you hear of students embellishing hours all the way to playing the system by not showing up at all.

The students have their plates full, and while a few hours a week doesn't sound like a lot, it can really cut right into your day. That's why some students don't show up studying for exams. Some may not go because they just don't want to be there in the first place. Maybe they want to spend their weekend evenings out with friends. And you know what? I think that is perfectly fine. As I mentioned before, you probably have many non-premed friends that never officially volunteered before, but they ARE still great people that can be considered altruistic too.

Regardless of whether a hospital volunteer is premed or not, they are giving their TIME TO DO MENIAL TASKS FOR FREE. They are at least entitled to some respect.

Premeds don't usually get much.

 

[mipp0]

Just to assuage some concerns of dishonest applicants getting their foot into medical school, during several of my interviews, I was grilled on little details of my application (and big details) by the interviewer, and I had to go to great lengths to defend my past works and activities (to great success, because I actually did them ). So don't think liars get away with lying.

Of course, not all adcomm members care equally (definitely not the case) or care to read your application until the day of, so this gives some leeway to cheaters.

Also, I've seen several clinical interns (not the same as volunteering, more rigorous screen, and more clinical responsibilities) get caught lying about their hours, and guess what? All of their hours were deleted, all the years they spent in the program meant nothing, and they left without a letter of recommendation.

However, a few cheaters do get away with cheating unfortunately. They'll get what's coming to them, in this life or the next 😀

 

[mipp0]

it is fantastic that you are having a great experience so far. It is refreshing to hear that the volunteer chairman actually makes sure that the volunteers are treated with respect. 🙂

I don't think most premeds hate the environment. I think they might hate being treated like garbage, like at some hospitals, and then for time reasons. Being a premed is a significant amount of work. The classes are hard and so is studying for the MCAT! You can't "fake" your grades or MCAT score, but volunteering is another issue. That's why you hear of students embellishing hours all the way to playing the system by not showing up at all.

The students have their plates full, and while a few hours a week doesn't sound like a lot, it can really cut right into your day. That's why some students don't show up studying for exams. Some may not go because they just don't want to be there in the first place. Maybe they want to spend their weekend evenings out with friends. And you know what? I think that is perfectly fine. As I mentioned before, you probably have many non-premed friends that never officially volunteered before, but they ARE still great people that can be considered altruistic too.

I hope you're not implying that it's OK to lie about hours sometimes just to "hang out" more or "study" for exams. Suck it up and do both by managing your time well.

Didn't want to read your dissertations above, so if I misunderstood, GOOD! If not, shame shame shame.

 

[Cherry212]

Just to assuage some concerns of dishonest applicants getting their foot into medical school, during several of my interviews, I was grilled on little details of my application (and big details) by the interviewer, and I had to go to great lengths to defend my past works and activities (to great success, because I actually did them ). So don't think liars get away with lying.

Of course, not all adcomm members care equally (definitely not the case) or care to read your application until the day of, so this gives some leeway to cheaters.

Also, I've seen several clinical interns (not the same as volunteering, more rigorous screen, and more clinical responsibilities) get caught lying about their hours, and guess what? All of their hours were deleted, all the years they spent in the program meant nothing, and they left without a letter of recommendation.

However, a few cheaters do get away with cheating unfortunately. They'll get what's coming to them, in this life or the next 😀

I don't agree with cheating, however, I feel that there are different levels. When a student cheats on an exam, there are significant consequences. As I mentioned before, if a student hypothetically cheated through the board exams, they may kill a patient because of this. I think people like this deserve a thrashing.

When it comes to the "premed volunteering," I believe its a whole other story. There is clearly a great divide among the SDN community. You have students at both ends.

You have some that see volunteering (in general) as a hoop, and will bear it. I am in this crowd because of principle. I have volunteered for many years through my church. I did it because I wanted to, and not because I was forced to. When someone is FORCED to do volunteering (the unwritten rule for admissions), it is no longer volunteering. It becomes nothing more than a charade. On other threads regarding volunteering, members say how they NEED to show altruism through volunteering. Just because you volunteer does not mean you're altruistic. In fact, if you volunteer because you are required to, then it defeats the whole purpose. What many students fail to acknowledge when knocking on members in this spectrum is that you can have plenty of friends (probably not premed) who have never volunteered once in their lives, yet are still very good people.

On the other end of the spectrum, you have SDN members who are naive and believe that it is just not possible that any premed would volunteer because its a requirement. Yes, these people do exist. You don't see nearly an entire applicant pool volunteering in law or business school admissions, do you? You cant realistically assume that somehow premeds are magically more altruistic than other pre-professional students. These members chastise those who say that they dislike volunteering or that they are doing this to jump through the hoop. They are especially vocal against those who have embellished their hours or "played" the system. In fact, some will even say that the people who play the volunteering system should never be doctors.

As a member of the former group, I believe that these students are rebelling against the flawed medical school admissions system. Alright, so they make the basic science classes a requirement, fine. They make the MCAT a requirement, fine. They will reject students flat out for not having volunteer experience, NOT FINE. I'm not just talking about clinical volunteering here, but volunteering in general. Medical school admissions are forcing the students who did not want to volunteer in the first place to put up a farce. All it does is push them to do something they do not want to do, and eventually force them to lie about their intentions at the interview. Volunteering is supposed to be something you want to do, not forced to do. I volunteer for my church because I want to, not because anyone is forcing me too. Its getting frustrating to see SDN members chastise other members who do not want to volunteer. Volunteering does not automatically make someone a good person. As I have said many times, I have many friends and family members who never volunteered before. They are all very good people, and would be selfless in plenty of situations. Do I think its good to volunteer? Yes. Is it absolutely necessary that everyone should do it? No.

What makes this worse is the BAD clinical experiences. You know they exist, and I know plenty of you will reply to this saying how great it was. Its nice that it was for you, but generally speaking, most of the population are not SDN gunners, and will do minimal commitment in the hospital setting. Whats frustrating is that in many hospitals, the staff will use these volunteers as free labor. I know it happened to me. I don't care who you are, even if you are a premed, you should be treated with respect! They are giving up their time for FREE to do these BS tasks. They deserve just a tiny bit of respect, as ALLDaWei mentioned above. These premeds dont owe ANYTHING to them.

So when it comes to students fudging their hours or even ditching the experience all together, I say that they are brave rebels. If a volunteer does not show up, the department will most likely not fall apart. Cleaning beds for free does not mean that someone will be a good doctor. Neither does volunteering in general. I do it, but I do it because I want to. If a premed does it because they are required to, does this make them automatically altruistic? Maybe but not necessarily. For the many who see this as a hoop, they are just full of bad four-letter word at their interviews when they try to pass off the experience as being genuine.

 

[Cherry212]

I hope you're not implying that it's OK to lie about hours sometimes just to "hang out" more or "study" for exams. Suck it up and do both by managing your time well.

Didn't want to read your dissertations above, so if I misunderstood, GOOD! If not, shame shame shame.

Whether someone is outright lying or "bending the truth" is within the eye of the beholder.

I think a lot of people are missing the point though. How can it be volunteering when it is forced? I volunteer through my church because I want to. No one forces me. Why do so many members here feel that students should be required to volunteer? Do you have friends that never volunteered before, and if so, are they bad people?

 

[AllDaWEI]

Whether someone is outright lying or "bending the truth" is within the eye of the beholder.

I think a lot of people are missing the point though. How can it be volunteering when it is forced? I volunteer through my church because I want to. No one forces me. Why do so many members here feel that students should be required to volunteer? Do you have friends that never volunteered before, and if so, are they bad people?

I volunteered since freshman year of college. I did four hours a week at the hospital. They treated pre-med volunteers like crap. I never ditched unless I was sick or before a big exam. A few months before filling out the AMCAS, I started dating a girl whose mother worked as an administrative assistant at a nearby hospital. She was in the volunteer department. My girlfriend said her mother would vouch for me and I quit all together. The experience was never verified.

I am a medical student now, and know I can be a good doctor. As Cherry said, cleaning beds does not make you a better person or doctor.

 

[Drogo]

For the many who see this as a hoop, they are just full of bad four-letter word at their interviews when they try to pass off the experience as being genuine.

I will never forget what an orthopedic sports medicine surgeon mentioned to me at a community volunteer event 'at times you just have to jump through the hoops'.

Again, I'm very fortunate to be in a real positive program and I thoroughly enjoy helping most of the patients and comforting them when they're at their worse.

I work over 30 hrs a week and always take a full time load at school and do community service work at times also. If I was having any issues at all I'd immediately be talking to the higher ups and things would get taken care of. You sign up to be a servant to the community/patients and it should not be take advantage of.

There's a reason why my hospital's president.personally gives his email and office number to us volunteers , maintaining a win-win situation is beneficial to the volunteers, staff, and patients.

Find somewhere else to get some clinical experience if you're really that dissatisified.

 

[Cherry212]

I will never forget what an orthopedic sports medicine surgeon mentioned to me at a community volunteer event 'at times you just have to jump through the hoops'.

Interesting. How did that make you feel?

Let me state three facts about myself, and lets see what everyone thinks:

1. I hate organic chemistry.
2. I hate the MCAT.
3. I hate clinical volunteering.

All three of these are checklist items. I never see anyone getting flak for the first two. There are plenty of threads on SDN about how much organic chemistry and the MCAT suck. No one has a problem for this.

Why is it the latter that always stirs up so much hostility? Some SDNers go to extremes saying that someone should never be a doctor because of this. If you hate organic chemistry and the MCAT, you can still be a great doctor according to the community. No one would even think twice about this! Can you still be a great doctor if you hate cleaning beds for free or restocking linens?

 

[fizzgig]

Why does it matter if other people approve of how you feel about your volunteering? I mean, you know yourself, so as long as you can get your point across to adcoms and they like your outlook, you're fine.

I don't see that you have to love your clinical volunteering. If you are getting NOTHING out of it, I do suggest seeking out a new opening though, because your particular position might just be meh. If you are actually getting to sit and talk with patients at all, about anything (even nonmedical stuff) and you dislike those interactions, then sure, might be worth asking yourself about medicine because you'll be interacting with many many more for a long long time, and the rapport building getting to know you just hoping to make your day a bit better however I can interactions will, as far as I can understand, be significant in your work. It'll just be coupled of course with medical discussions about diagnosis, tests, treatment and the like. My two cents, maybe not accurate. TBD in the next decade, right?

With regard to your earlier comments about shady reporting of hours, though, I'll say this much. You don't have to volunteer to be a nice person, you are correct. If volunteering is a hoop you're required to do for med school, though, you should do it. Applying your own sliding scale of what you think should be ok to lie about vs not is really shady. Guess it'd just depend on whether an adcom's views aligned with mine or yours. Not volunteering is one thing, lying about it is another.

And the idea that it's no longer volunteering if you don't love it is kinda meh. You're not paid, therefore it is still volunteer work. You don't have to ooze rainbows during every shift, just show up and do what's expected and try to take away a little bit of positive feeling that you did something slightly helpful today, even if nobody thanked you or gave you a thumbs up, you know? I get what you are saying, that people will tell you if you don't sing the hills are alive with the sound of music while changing sheets then you must be a horrible unaltruistic person. Just don't worry about it. You're a real person. Do some volunteering you love. Do some volunteering you have been told you need to do (a hoop) even if you don't yet see what the point is. See what might be there for you to appreciate, and if it seems totally bleh, fulfill your commitment and look for another clinical opportunity and move on without being mad.

Like the real job of medicine or anything else, you don't have to love every second of every day of everything you do to make what you're doing the right decision. It just has to be worth it when you line up your pros and cons and ask if it's what you want to be doing.

 

[mipp0]

Whether someone is outright lying or "bending the truth" is within the eye of the beholder.

I think a lot of people are missing the point though. How can it be volunteering when it is forced? I volunteer through my church because I want to. No one forces me. Why do so many members here feel that students should be required to volunteer? Do you have friends that never volunteered before, and if so, are they bad people?

What would your God think? Since you go to church, I would "assume" you know that there is honesty and dishonesty, and bending the truth IN THIS CONTEXT is another way of rationalizing dishonesty.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say your God would agree with me. For someone who talks about church so easily, this is a rather black and white issue to me.

 

[music2doc]

Interesting. How did that make you feel?

Let me state three facts about myself, and lets see what everyone thinks:

1. I hate organic chemistry.
2. I hate the MCAT.
3. I hate clinical volunteering.

All three of these are checklist items. I never see anyone getting flak for the first two. There are plenty of threads on SDN about how much organic chemistry and the MCAT suck. No one has a problem for this.

This is because the MCAT and Ochem are NOT even remotely related to what a physician actually does on a day to day basis. Good clinical volunteer opportunities are at least somewhat related to what a physician's work looks like. At all 3 of my volunteer positions, I work alongside physicians and other providers (RNs, PAs, EMT-Ps, EMT-Bs, etc.). As a part of the team, I get to experience aspects of what it is like to be a physician and those experiences have shown me I enjoy it. Doing well in Ochem or on the MCAT says absolutely nothing about my potential to be a good physician. Nothing.

If you don't enjoy working with patients as a volunteer, you probably won't enjoy working with them as a physician. (Social Psychologists have actually demonstrated that you will enjoy this work MORE as a volunteer than as a paid employee. Of course, that is assuming you are doing the same job and most volunteers in a hospital setting don't get to do assessments or assist the physicians with procedures. Hence, I do not suggest people volunteer in a hospital setting. I suggest you get a decent gig in a free clinic that actually needs you. Our pre-med volunteers just get in the way at the hospital. They are generally worthless. We don't need you. We don't "treat you like a special little snowflake" because, frankly, you're not a "special little snowflake" -- you're an annoying pre-med that just gets in the way and wonders why the nurses get frustrated with you when you don't go find the wheelchair for a patient when you are asked.)

Why is it the latter that always stirs up so much hostility? Some SDNers go to extremes saying that someone should never be a doctor because of this. If you hate organic chemistry and the MCAT, you can still be a great doctor according to the community. No one would even think twice about this! Can you still be a great doctor if you hate cleaning beds for free or restocking linens?

Sure, but you might be a poor med student since you apparently have trouble being at the bottom. No, it's not fun. It's not supposed to be. However, it is important to be at the bottom before rising to the top. It builds character. Now get back to stocking!

(J/K. On a more serious note, go get a better volunteer gig. See my previous note about why pre-med volunteers in the hospital aren't treated that well. Basically, you're known for being annoying, entitled, and lazy. That doesn't exactly get you brownie points with the nursing staff.)

What would your God think? Since you go to church, I would "assume" you know that there is honesty and dishonesty, and bending the truth IN THIS CONTEXT is another way of rationalizing dishonesty.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say your God would agree with me. For someone who talks about church so easily, this is a rather black and white issue to me.

Agreed.

[FONT=ARIAL,HELVETICA,SANS-SERIF] Job 13:4, "But ye are forgers of lies,ye are all physicians of no value
.

[FONT=ARIAL,HELVETICA,SANS-SERIF]Leviticus 6:1-4, "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour…or hath deceived his neighbour…and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein: Then it shall be, because he hath sinned, and is guilty,".

[FONT=ARIAL,HELVETICA,SANS-SERIF] Proverbs 6:16-19, "These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."
.

[FONT=ARIAL,HELVETICA,SANS-SERIF] Proverbs 12:22, "Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight."
.

[FONT=ARIAL,HELVETICA,SANS-SERIF] Matthew 15:19, "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts…false witness…These are the things which defile a man: "
.

[FONT=ARIAL,HELVETICA,SANS-SERIF] Revelation 21:8, "…and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:"
.

Oddly enough, I get this odd feeling that God doesn't really appreciate lying or deception.

 

[mipp0]

This is because the MCAT and Ochem are NOT even remotely related to what a physician actually does on a day to day basis. Good clinical volunteer opportunities are at least somewhat related to what a physician's work looks like. At all 3 of my volunteer positions, I work alongside physicians and other providers (RNs, PAs, EMT-Ps, EMT-Bs, etc.). As a part of the team, I get to experience aspects of what it is like to be a physician and those experiences have shown me I enjoy it. Doing well in Ochem or on the MCAT says absolutely nothing about my potential to be a good physician. Nothing.

If you don't enjoy working with patients as a volunteer, you probably won't enjoy working with them as a physician. (Social Psychologists have actually demonstrated that you will enjoy this work MORE as a volunteer than as a paid employee. Of course, that is assuming you are doing the same job and most volunteers in a hospital setting don't get to do assessments or assist the physicians with procedures. Hence, I do not suggest people volunteer in a hospital setting. I suggest you get a decent gig in a free clinic that actually needs you. Our pre-med volunteers just get in the way at the hospital. They are generally worthless. We don't need you. We don't "treat you like a special little snowflake" because, frankly, you're not a "special little snowflake" -- you're an annoying pre-med that just gets in the way and wonders why the nurses get frustrated with you when you don't go find the wheelchair for a patient when you are asked.)


Sure, but you might be a poor med student since you apparently have trouble being at the bottom. No, it's not fun. It's not supposed to be. However, it is important to be at the bottom before rising to the top. It builds character. Now get back to stocking!

(J/K. On a more serious note, go get a better volunteer gig. See my previous note about why pre-med volunteers in the hospital aren't treated that well. Basically, you're known for being annoying, entitled, and lazy. That doesn't exactly get you brownie points with the nursing staff.)




Agreed.
















Oddly enough, I get this odd feeling that God doesn't really appreciate lying or deception.

HEY YOU. YEAH, YOU. I like you.

I hate hypocrites. Lying is lying. *fist bump*

 

[Dzerzhinsky]

I think a lot of people are missing the point though. How can it be volunteering when it is forced?

It's not forced! You have free will! You're welcome to not do it. You can not volunteer your little heart out!

... just don't expect to get into medical school.

As far as attitudes go: I never said you, or anyone who doesn't enjoy their volunteer gig, is a bad person. I don't always enjoy my job. That's OK. They don't compensate me for enjoying my job, they compensate me for doing my job. Same thing for volunteering--and yes, by getting in that experience that you need, you are being compensated. However, I did say (and will stand behind) three points:

1) If you choose a position where you feel like you're worthless and cannot be of any value, that's on you. There are other volunteering gigs out there where you can be of use. They may require a larger commitment of time or be less convenient, but they exist. It's fine to know that and make the decision to take the gig where you feel worthless because the cost of a better experience is too high, but you need to own that decision as one that you made, not one that was forced on you by the evil medical schools.

2) I personally wanted to get the clinical experience because I didn't want to abruptly find out in the clinical years that I disliked sick people. I think this is a good idea for any pre-med. Look before you leap and all that. Feel free to disagree with me, but my viewpoint is in alignment with that of the adcoms.

3) There is absolutely no reason in the world why a few hours a week of clinical volunteering should prevent you from making good grades, doing well on the MCAT, or having a job. If it does, you need to seriously consider whether you will be able to handle the rigor of medical school.

Finally, based on your recent posts to the thread, I will add one more:

4) Liars are scum. If you don't want to do it, don't do it and accept the consequences, but don't lie about it.

 

[scarshapedstar]

Again... it's volunteering if you're actually needed.

It's not volunteering if you stand around and chirp "hi, I'm gonna be a doctor someday! how much do nurses make? lol!" while everyone plots to cut your brake lines.

 

[Cherry212]

Okay maybe I was being hypocritical. I guess this came out wrong. I was just saying before that I knew someone who dramatically embellished his hours without technically lying on the AMCAS, since the exact number of hours are not required. I also was just implying that I am not here to villainize those who do end up playing the system. With so many stories from different premeds about students ranging from being worthless in the setting all the way to outright liars, it shows that there could potentially be a problem somewhere along the way. I don't think its right to entirely place blame on them either. I didn't tell the stories about other abuse, nor did I say I took part in it. I did my time, and will quit once I hopefully get an acceptance.

As I mentioned earlier, I always that volunteering was supposed to be SOMETHING special. People did it because they genuinely want to volunteer. Now volunteering is expected of all premeds, and has become casual conversation as if it were nothing. There are still plenty of individuals who genuinely enjoy it, but many do it as a checklist item. Many of the last posters were saying how its important to see if we will actually enjoy the clinical setting. I agree, this is important. This is where shadowing and clinival volunteering come in to an extent. Just because someone hates clinical volunteering does not imply they hate the clinical environment. They may hate it because of poor treatment, doing scut work for free, or simply wanting to do something else with their own time, which is apparently a crime against humanity to some. Nowhere does this say someone will hate being a doctor.

There are so many stories just on SDN about the apathy and abuse of volunteering by premeds. Did you know that a good number of these individuals end up going to medical school and becoming doctors? Who knows, maybe the ER physician who saves your mother's life in the future embellished his hours?

The system is flawed, and those who do not agree catch the heat. It really sucks for the premeds who did not volunteer to put up a fake front at their interviews. Maybe a few hours are needed to gain the valuable clinical experience, but are 500 really necessary? Does doing more hours make someone more altruistic? Remember what I mentioned earlier about having friends who never volunteered before that are still great people. In fact, do you think that they would all be terrible physicians?

This reminded me of certain nursing program requirements. I know that at least one community college a friend went to, she was required to do ten hours of volunteering for a class and write a paper about it. This is also similar to some high schools across the country that have a community service requirement for graduation. If medical schools were to have a similar requirement, such as 20 community service hours in a clinical environment with a required form, they would cut down on the abuse. Their goal of seeing the clinical environment will be met, and they won't have to waste their time.or.the hospital staff's either (its not good to get in the way). There would no longer be the need for these.students to rack up as many hours as possible just to look good.

This would be the ideal way to solve the abuse that goes around. The individuals on here who think every premed who does not want to volunteer should not be a doctor needs to get off of their high horse. Do you ask a doctor how much volunteering they did when choosing one? Oh and lastly, stop putting all the blame on premeds. This is not all their fault.

Also yes I have been hypocritical. I'm not perfect and far from it. This doesn't mean I will be a bad doctor, because remember, plenty of those playing the volunteer system are either in medical school or doctors already.

 

[mipp0]

Okay maybe I was being hypocritical. I guess this came out wrong. I was just saying before that I knew someone who dramatically embellished his hours without technically lying on the AMCAS, since the exact number of hours are not required. I also was just implying that I am not here to villainize those who do end up playing the system. With so many stories from different premeds about students ranging from being worthless in the setting all the way to outright liars, it shows that there could potentially be a problem somewhere along the way. I don't think its right to entirely place blame on them either. I didn't tell the stories about other abuse, nor did I say I took part in it. I did my time, and will quit once I hopefully get an acceptance.

As I mentioned earlier, I always that volunteering was supposed to be SOMETHING special. People did it because they genuinely want to volunteer. Now volunteering is expected of all premeds, and has become casual conversation as if it were nothing. There are still plenty of individuals who genuinely enjoy it, but many do it as a checklist item. Many of the last posters were saying how its important to see if we will actually enjoy the clinical setting. I agree, this is important. This is where shadowing and clinival volunteering come in to an extent. Just because someone hates clinical volunteering does not imply they hate the clinical environment. They may hate it because of poor treatment, doing scut work for free, or simply wanting to do something else with their own time, which is apparently a crime against humanity to some. Nowhere does this say someone will hate being a doctor.

There are so many stories just on SDN about the apathy and abuse of volunteering by premeds. Did you know that a good number of these individuals end up going to medical school and becoming doctors? Who knows, maybe the ER physician who saves your mother's life in the future embellished his hours?

The system is flawed, and those who do not agree catch the heat. It really sucks for the premeds who did not volunteer to put up a fake front at their interviews. Maybe a few hours are needed to gain the valuable clinical experience, but are 500 really necessary? Does doing more hours make someone more altruistic? Remember what I mentioned earlier about having friends who never volunteered before that are still great people. In fact, do you think that they would all be terrible physicians?

This reminded me of certain nursing program requirements. I know that at least one community college a friend went to, she was required to do ten hours of volunteering for a class and write a paper about it. This is also similar to some high schools across the country that have a community service requirement for graduation. If medical schools were to have a similar requirement, such as 20 community service hours in a clinical environment with a required form, they would cut down on the abuse. Their goal of seeing the clinical environment will be met, and they won't have to waste their time.or.the hospital staff's either (its not good to get in the way). There would no longer be the need for these.students to rack up as many hours as possible just to look good.

This would be the ideal way to solve the abuse that goes around. The individuals on here who think every premed who does not want to volunteer should not be a doctor needs to get off of their high horse. Do you ask a doctor how much volunteering they did when choosing one? Oh and lastly, stop putting all the blame on premeds. This is not all their fault.

Also yes I have been hypocritical. I'm not perfect and far from it. This doesn't mean I will be a bad doctor, because remember, plenty of those playing the volunteer system are either in medical school or doctors already.

Stop judging others and look at yourself. You've got a big Jesus sign for your avatar and you talk about serving in your church. But when things get tough, you toss Jesus aside and play by your own rules and then rationalize your wrongdoings by saying, "Hey, everyone else is doing it, I'm just bending the rules a little."

Your moral standards are Biblical standards, not the world's standards. That means you are judged through a different lens. When you say stuff like this, you drag your God in the mud, and that's infuriating. When you spew this stuff out, you just reinforce all the negative stereotypes of the Christian faith.

I may or may not be Christian, that's not the point. The point is, you're being a hypocrite and making Christians look bad. You are making Jesus Christ look bad.

Stop whining about these matters and suffer with dignity. I've never considered volunteering scut work. I see everything I do as a privilege, even when the nursing staff or patients treat me like trash. Who cares what others think of you? Who cares what other pre-meds do?

What does your God think of you? Isn't that what should matter?

LIVE YOUR OWN LIFE. If you are truly a so-called Christian, shouldn't you have more faith in your God?

 

[music2doc]

Stop judging others and look at yourself. You've got a big Jesus sign for your avatar and you talk about serving in your church. But when things get tough, you toss Jesus aside and play by your own rules and then rationalize your wrongdoings by saying, "Hey, everyone else is doing it, I'm just bending the rules a little."

Your moral standards are Biblical standards, not the world's standards. That means you are judged through a different lens. When you say stuff like this, you drag your God in the mud, and that's infuriating. When you spew this stuff out, you just reinforce all the negative stereotypes of the Christian faith.

I may or may not be Christian, that's not the point. The point is, you're being a hypocrite and making Christians look bad. You are making Jesus Christ look bad.

Stop whining about these matters and suffer with dignity. I've never considered volunteering scut work. I see everything I do as a privilege, even when the nursing staff or patients treat me like trash. Who cares what others think of you? Who cares what other pre-meds do?

What does your God think of you? Isn't that what should matter?

LIVE YOUR OWN LIFE. If you are truly a so-called Christian, shouldn't you have more faith in your God?

Agreed.

You don't have to be perfect and we all have to do things we dislike but your rationalization and apparent lack of integrity really is an insult to Christianity, your fellow believers, and to God. You are being compensated through experience and "hours" so lying here is also stealing. Falsifying hours is, btw, a form of fraud. It is illegal. It is unethical. It is at least as bad as cheating on a tea and probably actually somewhat worse as it is much more relevant to the actual working world, whereas an exam is more academic. Not liking to volunteer is fine. If you don't want go do if or don't want to commit then don't. You might not get into medical school and that's okay.

 

[Cherry212]

Stop judging others and look at yourself. You've got a big Jesus sign for your avatar and you talk about serving in your church. But when things get tough, you toss Jesus aside and play by your own rules and then rationalize your wrongdoings by saying, "Hey, everyone else is doing it, I'm just bending the rules a little."

Your moral standards are Biblical standards, not the world's standards. That means you are judged through a different lens. When you say stuff like this, you drag your God in the mud, and that's infuriating. When you spew this stuff out, you just reinforce all the negative stereotypes of the Christian faith.

I may or may not be Christian, that's not the point. The point is, you're being a hypocrite and making Christians look bad. You are making Jesus Christ look bad.

Stop whining about these matters and suffer with dignity. I've never considered volunteering scut work. I see everything I do as a privilege, even when the nursing staff or patients treat me like trash. Who cares what others think of you? Who cares what other pre-meds do?

What does your God think of you? Isn't that what should matter?

LIVE YOUR OWN LIFE. If you are truly a so-called Christian, shouldn't you have more faith in your God?

Whoa there, never did I say that I was perfect. No one is perfect. First of all, I care about what other premeds do because this is SDN. If we didn't care, we would not be on here in the first place.

In regards to religion, I have a Jesus avatar. When you have a Christian wearing a crucifix or Jew wearing a star, they are also showing their religion. So if you have a Christian or Jew lie when wearing the crucifix or star, are they dragging God through the mud? Just because a Christian goes to church, a Jew goes to synagogue, and Muslim goes to mosque does not make them righteous. You have those that are more religious than others. Being in New York, I see plenty of religious Jews. Its not only they who show their religion. Plenty of non-religious Jews I went to school with wore stars and even went to synagogue, but weren't perfect either. There will always be good and bad people in any religion. The bad ones may still wear religious signs, and it is a bit extreme to be this judgemental. I did not want this to turn into a religious debate. There will always be the good ones, the bad ones, and everythinv in the middle. Whether or not they attend mass or wear crucifixes is not representative of the religion.

And on this topic, my exact point is not to judge.

 

[Cherry212]

Agreed.

You don't have to be perfect and we all have to do things we dislike but your rationalization and apparent lack of integrity really is an insult to Christianity, your fellow believers, and to God. You are being compensated through experience and "hours" so lying here is also stealing. Falsifying hours is, btw, a form of fraud. It is illegal. It is unethical. It is at least as bad as cheating on a tea and probably actually somewhat worse as it is much more relevant to the actual working world, whereas an exam is more academic. Not liking to volunteer is fine. If you don't want go do if or don't want to commit then don't. You might not get into medical school and that's okay.

I didn't say I lied. I'm not saying it is good to lie either. I said someone bent the truth and that I am not being judgemental of those who do not want to volunteer, and take extreme measures to do so.

 

[varsityblue]

Most people volunteer because of the altruistic high they get. It feels good to see your contributions impact a large number of people and it feels even better when you aren't doing stuff to put on your resume. I am also very involved in my church/parish and I have no intention of writing down my contributions on my CV.

 

[mipp0]

Whoa there, never did I say that I was perfect. No one is perfect. First of all, I care about what other premeds do because this is SDN. If we didn't care, we would not be on here in the first place.

In regards to religion, I have a Jesus avatar. When you have a Christian wearing a crucifix or Jew wearing a star, they are also showing their religion. So if you have a Christian or Jew lie when wearing the crucifix or star, are they dragging God through the mud? Just because a Christian goes to church, a Jew goes to synagogue, and Muslim goes to mosque does not make them righteous. You have those that are more religious than others. Being in New York, I see plenty of religious Jews. Its not only they who show their religion. Plenty of non-religious Jews I went to school with wore stars and even went to synagogue, but weren't perfect either. There will always be good and bad people in any religion. The bad ones may still wear religious signs, and it is a bit extreme to be this judgemental. I did not want this to turn into a religious debate. There will always be the good ones, the bad ones, and everythinv in the middle. Whether or not they attend mass or wear crucifixes is not representative of the religion.

And on this topic, my exact point is not to judge.

You still don't get my point. I'm not asking you to be perfect. That's not my point at all.

If you call yourself Christian, live like one. Have faith in your God. Don't water down your convictions because you are afraid you won't get into medical school. Why are you even mentioned Jewish or Muslim believers?

MOST IMPORTANTLY, KNOW YOU OWN RELIGION. Many things you've been saying contradict Biblical teaching.

I'm on SDN to dialogue and learn more about the medical school process. I also use this forum as an opportunity to encourage others and share information about certain medical schools I interviewed at. I'm also here to have fun and crush trolls. I'm not here because I care about what others think of me or because I care about what they do. If they cheat and lie and I have the power to do something about it, you can bet I will do something, and you know what? I have.

 

[mipp0]

Whether someone is outright lying or "bending the truth" is within the eye of the beholder.

I think a lot of people are missing the point though. How can it be volunteering when it is forced? I volunteer through my church because I want to. No one forces me. Why do so many members here feel that students should be required to volunteer? Do you have friends that never volunteered before, and if so, are they bad people?

Did you forget you said this? What are you implying here? You wrote a lot of things. You even went on about being hypocritical, etc.

SOMETIMES, it's good to say, yeah I was wrong. Guess I still have a lot of growing to do.

Also, it doesn't matter if you lied, etc. It's your perspective that I have an issue with.

 

[xBODOMx]

.

 

[mipp0]

I got about as far as the food tray part before I had to comment.

I've worked out of three EDs and all of the hospitals had a policy where people could not be feed in the ED because they were not there to stay, exluding diabetic food trays.

No need to bash clinicians because you have no idea what you're talking about.

Also, patients in the ED may require immediate surgery once their labs, CT scans, etc. come in. This, of course, means no food or liquids until results are benign.

 

[Cherry212]

Also, patients in the ED may require immediate surgery once their labs, CT scans, etc. come in. This, of course, means no food or liquids until results are benign.

I am sorry. I did not intend to bash clinicians since I did not know this.

Also you have made your point that I am a hypocritical bad Christian. Point taken. I am not being sarcastic here, and seriously had no intention of offending anyone.

 

[mipp0]

Okay maybe I was being hypocritical. I guess this came out wrong. I was just saying before that I knew someone who dramatically embellished his hours without technically lying on the AMCAS, since the exact number of hours are not required. I also was just implying that I am not here to villainize those who do end up playing the system. With so many stories from different premeds about students ranging from being worthless in the setting all the way to outright liars, it shows that there could potentially be a problem somewhere along the way. I don't think its right to entirely place blame on them either. I didn't tell the stories about other abuse, nor did I say I took part in it. I did my time, and will quit once I hopefully get an acceptance.

As I mentioned earlier, I always that volunteering was supposed to be SOMETHING special. People did it because they genuinely want to volunteer. Now volunteering is expected of all premeds, and has become casual conversation as if it were nothing. There are still plenty of individuals who genuinely enjoy it, but many do it as a checklist item. Many of the last posters were saying how its important to see if we will actually enjoy the clinical setting. I agree, this is important. This is where shadowing and clinival volunteering come in to an extent. Just because someone hates clinical volunteering does not imply they hate the clinical environment. They may hate it because of poor treatment, doing scut work for free, or simply wanting to do something else with their own time, which is apparently a crime against humanity to some. Nowhere does this say someone will hate being a doctor.

There are so many stories just on SDN about the apathy and abuse of volunteering by premeds. Did you know that a good number of these individuals end up going to medical school and becoming doctors? Who knows, maybe the ER physician who saves your mother's life in the future embellished his hours?

The system is flawed, and those who do not agree catch the heat. It really sucks for the premeds who did not volunteer to put up a fake front at their interviews. Maybe a few hours are needed to gain the valuable clinical experience, but are 500 really necessary? Does doing more hours make someone more altruistic? Remember what I mentioned earlier about having friends who never volunteered before that are still great people. In fact, do you think that they would all be terrible physicians?

This reminded me of certain nursing program requirements. I know that at least one community college a friend went to, she was required to do ten hours of volunteering for a class and write a paper about it. This is also similar to some high schools across the country that have a community service requirement for graduation. If medical schools were to have a similar requirement, such as 20 community service hours in a clinical environment with a required form, they would cut down on the abuse. Their goal of seeing the clinical environment will be met, and they won't have to waste their time.or.the hospital staff's either (its not good to get in the way). There would no longer be the need for these.students to rack up as many hours as possible just to look good.

This would be the ideal way to solve the abuse that goes around. The individuals on here who think every premed who does not want to volunteer should not be a doctor needs to get off of their high horse. Do you ask a doctor how much volunteering they did when choosing one? Oh and lastly, stop putting all the blame on premeds. This is not all their fault.

Also yes I have been hypocritical. I'm not perfect and far from it. This doesn't mean I will be a bad doctor, because remember, plenty of those playing the volunteer system are either in medical school or doctors already.

I believe your Bible states God can can use what is intended for evil and dishonest purposes for good, but that doesn't justify the action. Pharaoh, the death of Jesus, etc. are few others examples that come to mind.

Quantity does not equal quality. There are some clinical internship programs that allow interns to take part in a large range of procedures and rotate through different hospital departments. Such programs have helped me develop a greater appreciation for the healthcare field and have realistic expectations of what it's like to be a clinician. I was also employed in the hospital where I worked directly with physicians and nursing staff. All the thousands of hours I've spent in the hospital have helped me grow in a way that would have been impossible with only a couple dozen hours.

No one is saying your "friends" will be bad physicians. The reality is that the number of pre-med students applying to medical school far outnumber the spots available. It only makes sense for medical schools to pick the most qualified and mature applicants, who have the most MEANINGFUL clinical experiences and hours.

 

[mipp0]

I am sorry. I did not intend to bash clinicians since I did not know this.

Also you have made your point that I am a hypocritical bad Christian. Point taken. I am not being sarcastic here, and seriously had no intention of offending anyone.

...this was surprisingly mature...

You aren't a bad Christian Cherry. I think you just need to be a little more grounded in your faith. Truth be told, the medical school process stumbles many people of all faiths.

Just remember, no matter how hard life gets, God loves you and has your back. Don't ever compromise who you are and what you believe just to get ahead. Don't put a price on your integrity or your faith.

Oh, and...*hug*

Gnite, I'm done here.

 

[Cherry212]

...this was surprisingly mature...

You aren't a bad Christian Cherry. I think you just need to be a little more grounded in your faith. Truth be told, the medical school process stumbles many people of all faiths.

Just remember, no matter how hard life gets, God loves you and has your back. Don't ever compromise who you are and what you believe just to get ahead. Don't put a price on your integrity or your faith.

Oh, and...*hug*

Gnite, I'm done here.

Thanks that was insightful. Looks like I have plenty of thinking to do...

The world is a crazy place.