Why would anyone go to an Ivy League Med School ?

[SugarPhosphate]

Are the people who go to Ivy league schools students ones who come from states that dont have good medical schools ? Why would anyone who could go to Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio State, Washington or any California state school chose to pay the incredible tuition at the Ivy League schools ? When everyone is done they are all MDs. I really dont think a Harvard MD has an advantage over a Wisconsin, Michigan or UC-SanFransico MD. In fact, Wisconsin is now the second most funded research university behind Berkley. So why does anyone want to go to the expensive private schools ? Could they not get into their own state schools ?

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[jmv1083]

Are the people who go to Ivy league schools students ones who come from states that dont have good medical schools ? Why would anyone who could go to Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio State, Washington or any California state school chose to pay the incredible tuition at the Ivy League schools ? When everyone is done they are all MDs. I really dont think a Harvard MD has an advantage over a Wisconsin, Michigan or UC-SanFransico MD. In fact, Wisconsin is now the second most funded research university behind Berkley. So why does anyone want to go to the expensive private schools ? Could they not get into their own state schools ?

For one thing, state schools are only cheaper for residents of that state. I'm from New York. It's one thing to choose UCSF over Harvard. Choosing SUNY Stony Brook over Harvard isn't as easy.

So why would residents of Michigan, California etc. choose private schools? Dunno...maybe one of them could answer that question better than I could. But any given state will have way more MD applicants that seats in their state school class.

 

[deltamed]

Are the people who go to Ivy league schools students ones who come from states that dont have good medical schools ? Why would anyone who could go to Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio State, Washington or any California state school chose to pay the incredible tuition at the Ivy League schools ? When everyone is done they are all MDs. I really dont think a Harvard MD has an advantage over a Wisconsin, Michigan or UC-SanFransico MD. In fact, Wisconsin is now the second most funded research university behind Berkley. So why does anyone want to go to the expensive private schools ? Could they not get into their own state schools ?

Although I agree most state schools are a better value than Ivy Leages, you have to remember that for some people, money isn't an object. They have rich families.

And going to Harvard DOES give you an advantage when it comes to residencies, like it or not. That doesnt mean you have a huge advantage, it doesn't mean you can do crappy. However, residency directors are impressed by a good med school. It isn't critical like going to law school but its still an edge.

By the way, where are you getting that berkley and wisconsin are 1-2 for research funds? My info shows Harvard is still #1 by a huge margin (like double) as they have been for decades. They just topped a billion per year.

 

[Fantasy Sports]

I really dont think a Harvard MD has an advantage over a Wisconsin, Michigan or UC-SanFransico MD.

Take a look at match lists and tell me that again (though UCSF would probably match pretty close. My friends at Michigan tell me its much harder for them than they thought to match back to one of the coasts-- and UM is a TOP public school.

Also, 2 of the 3 schools you named are top 20 public schools, there are very few of those (UCSF, Washington, UTSW, UCLA, UCSD, Michigan are a few of the others).

Plus, saying Ivy league is not exactly appropriate for med schools. Johns Hopkins, WashU, and Duke are 3 schools that come to mind that are better in almost every way than any Ivy School not named Harvard. Maybe you mean top private schools?

 

[DrDarwin]

Are the people who go to Ivy league schools students ones who come from states that dont have good medical schools ? Why would anyone who could go to Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio State, Washington or any California state school chose to pay the incredible tuition at the Ivy League schools ? When everyone is done they are all MDs. I really dont think a Harvard MD has an advantage over a Wisconsin, Michigan or UC-SanFransico MD. In fact, Wisconsin is now the second most funded research university behind Berkley. So why does anyone want to go to the expensive private schools ? Could they not get into their own state schools ?

Have you ever heard of financial aid? The average indebtedness of students at many private schools is on par with--and in some cases less than--that of students from public schools. The average indebtedness at Stanford, for example, is about $64,000, which is approximately $25,000 less than the average indebtedness at my state school.

 

[wilson04]

Wow, you're right. I don't remember the last time Princeton's med school did anything productive. Let's pillage and plunder all the Ivy League schools!
I've got the pitch forks!

Are the people who go to Ivy league schools students ones who come from states that dont have good medical schools ? Why would anyone who could go to Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio State, Washington or any California state school chose to pay the incredible tuition at the Ivy League schools ? When everyone is done they are all MDs. I really dont think a Harvard MD has an advantage over a Wisconsin, Michigan or UC-SanFransico MD. In fact, Wisconsin is now the second most funded research university behind Berkley. So why does anyone want to go to the expensive private schools ? Could they not get into their own state schools ?

 

[SugarPhosphate]

I dont recall where I read that Berkley and Madison were now number one and two for researching funding but I read it less than a month ago.

I have been to Harvard and Madison and I can say for certain that the science section of Madison's campus is at least twice as large as all of Harvard's entire campus. Madison now has individual buildings for such divisions as biotechnology. Madison has new large scale buildings for almost every imagineable department in the science world. Unless Harvard is doing a lot of off-site research you can tell from their campus they dont have a fraction of the scientists working for them.

 

[scootad.]

state schools are not always the cheaper option. though they have lower tuition for in-staters, private schools may offer better financial aid packages making them comparable in price. Additionally, there is no question that 2 applicants with identical board scores and grades, the one who went to a more known school will have the advantage for residency applications, and this is a factor for competitive residencies.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Who cares, people do what they want.

 

[FMGP8P]

Have you ever heard of financial aid? The average indebtedness of students at many private schools is on par with--and in some cases less than--that of students from public schools. The average indebtedness at Stanford, for example, is about $64,000, which is approximately $25,000 less than the average indebtedness at my state school.

Could this be due to private school students having more family financial support?

 

[SugarPhosphate]

that is a load of crap .. Michigan is a better med school than virtually all private med schools in the nation and I would bet they match better than almost every private school in the nation.

 

[soprano]

Well, I got into my state school (UMASS, pretty reputable I think) and an Ivy League. I haven't decided yet (yes, financial aid is a factor, not everyone who chooses to go Ivy League is made of money), but I'm probably going to pick the Ivy League for the following reasons:

1. More resources - more hospital affiliates, more faculty, more alumnae contacts, more $$$$$$, more research, more name recognition (does help in residencies - don't kid yourself)

2. Better area - Worcester SUX

3. Environment - I got a better vibe at the Ivy. Thought the students were a bit more challenging as well. (I want a little competition from the next four years - it will make me work harder)

4. Although I kind of mentioned this above, it deserves mentioning again - more $$$$$$$$$!!!! The Ivy League has a larger endowment (it's been around longer, it's inevitable) and can give out more grants and private scholarships - whether this will make it cheaper than UMASS remains to be seen, but it might make it more manageable, which I'm willing to deal with to go to a better school.

Hope that helps you make sense of the dillemma that apparently you don't even have.

Unless Harvard is doing a lot of off-site research you can tell from their campus they dont have a fraction of the scientists working for them.

and I had to say - Harvard DOES do off-site research. It's called Mass General Hospital. Takes up like, I dunno, ALL of Boston? Lots of research? Lots of Harvard faculty/students? Yeah...

 

[scootad.]

You ask a question and then start throwing a hissy fit when you dont like the answers yer getting. Have fun at your crappy state school and enjoy family practice, you '****!

 

[Pinkertinkle]

It's called Mass General Hospital. Takes up like, I dunno, ALL of Boston? Lots of research? Lots of Harvard faculty/students? Yeah...

MGH? Never heard of it, it can't be any better than my state school's affliated hospital.

 

[soprano]

MGH? Never heard of it, it can't be any better than my state school's affliated hospital.

 

[jhugti]

that is a load of crap .. Michigan is a better med school than virtually all private med schools in the nation and I would bet they match better than almost every private school in the nation.

you bet wrong

search for the 2004 match lists, then go read the UMich Class of '09 thread

 

[masterMood]

1) www.gradeinflation.org as a little joke, but on the other hand, is there lots of grade inflation at the ivy league medical schools compared to nonivy schools?
2) what residencies in particular are we talkinga bout that are very hard to get into, and when u say that ivy league med school kids have better chances, are these chances very high compared to nonivy oens?
3) whats harder to get into, ivy med school, or ivy undergraduate college

 

[JohnnyOU]

Going to an ivy school is stupid and all you trying are dumb... it's just another example of THE MAN trying to hold down all the non-whites.....so everyone drop out ... then maybe they'll let ME in !!!!!!

JohnnyHarvard <<-----has a nice ring to it

ps....anyone ever figure out who "THE MAN" is?

 

[tinkerbelle]

Going to an ivy school is stupid and all you trying are dumb...

This is what the people who are too dumb to get into a decent school say.

 

[mshheaddoc]

Wow, you're right. I don't remember the last time Princeton's med school did anything productive. Let's pillage and plunder all the Ivy League schools!
I've got the pitch forks!

Oh, you didn't see the publication in the latest JAMA on the school?

ps....anyone ever figure out who "THE MAN" is?

Yeah ....me

 

[Medikit]

Ivy league MD schools are actually pretty reasonably priced, I don't see why you care.


Princeton has the worst medical school in the world

 

[CaMD]

Ivy league MD schools are actually pretty reasonably priced, I don't see why you care.


Princeton has the worst medical school in the world

UC Berkeley's is nearly as bad.

 

[mshheaddoc]

Princeton has the worst medical school in the world

Medi - please tell me you are kidding ...

 

[neuropower]

Medi - please tell me you are kidding ...

Princeton has a med school?

 

[uclabruin2003]

you guys crack me up.

 

[deltamed]

I dont recall where I read that Berkley and Madison were now number one and two for researching funding but I read it less than a month ago.

I have been to Harvard and Madison and I can say for certain that the science section of Madison's campus is at least twice as large as all of Harvard's entire campus. Madison now has individual buildings for such divisions as biotechnology. Madison has new large scale buildings for almost every imagineable department in the science world. Unless Harvard is doing a lot of off-site research you can tell from their campus they dont have a fraction of the scientists working for them.

Sorry until I see your data I'm going to have to believe what I've heard and read - that Harvard pretty much demolishes every other school in research funding. Oh, by the way I was wrong. They have 3x more funding than the #2 school, not double. Here's the link to USnews rankings:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rankings/med/brief/mdrrank_brief.php

If you don't have a logon you can't see all the #s but Harvard has almost a billion in funding while #2 (WashU) has 373 million. Maybe what you were reading doesn't include research at affiliated hospitals, which makes a huge difference. As a previous poster pointed out MGH has a few researchers.

 

[Fantasy Sports]

that is a load of crap .. Michigan is a better med school than virtually all private med schools in the nation and I would bet they match better than almost every private school in the nation.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=95190&highlight=michigan+match+feedback

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=95205&highlight=michigan+match+feedback

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~sundeeps/Match.txt

If you like the Midwest, go to Michigan. Let's take a private school that is ranked lower that UM generally, Yale.

Look at its match list:

http://info.med.yale.edu/education/osa/milestones/commencement04/match.html

Compare and contrast in 6 sentences (and PS, since UM is 50% out-of-state, that means half of their class pays the same tuition as Yale students)

 

[wilson04]

Princeton has a med school?

No, Princeton doesn't have a med school. Or a law school. A funny story about that (and lawyers), though:
You remember the Time Magazine numbers section, where they list a lot of stats and then talk about them in a generally humorous way? Well, one of the stats once was:
"6: The ranking of Princeton's Law School in a survey done by XXX (I forget who did the survey) asking 1000 lawyers to list the country's top law schools. The lawyers were apparently unaware that Princeton does not have a law school."

 

[45408]

Sorry until I see your data I'm going to have to believe what I've heard and read - that Harvard pretty much demolishes every other school in research funding. Oh, by the way I was wrong. They have 3x more funding than the #2 school, not double. Here's the link to USnews rankings:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rankings/med/brief/mdrrank_brief.php

If you don't have a logon you can't see all the #s but Harvard has almost a billion in funding while #2 (WashU) has 373 million. Maybe what you were reading doesn't include research at affiliated hospitals, which makes a huge difference. As a previous poster pointed out MGH has a few researchers.

What about the rest of the school (as in, not just the med school)? I'm pretty sure that Madison is very near the top with something like $600 million in total research funding.

 

[SaginawPremed]

No, Princeton doesn't have a med school. Or a law school. A funny story about that (and lawyers), though:
You remember the Time Magazine numbers section, where they list a lot of stats and then talk about them in a generally humorous way? Well, one of the stats once was:
"6: The ranking of Princeton's Law School in a survey done by XXX (I forget who did the survey) asking 1000 lawyers to list the country's top law schools. The lawyers were apparently unaware that Princeton does not have a law school."

But that alone displays that "ivy league name" will command respect over real facts and figures. Right, residency directors may be a bit more grounded in reality when it comes to getting those graduated med students who'll be beneficial for their program, but the common layman will respond much more to "Harvard", "Yale" or "Columbia" than "WashU" or even "Northwestern"-- just because the average layman may have no idea what the latter two schools are. Yes, for us, obsessed with academia and its admissions processes, this is unfathomable.

But when you think about, how much does the average layperson's knowledge of your school matter? Beyond my quack of an osteopath, current GP (damn military insurance plan), (and I say that because he is a quack, not because he's an osteopath, just a coincidence) who I had to check to make sure he even went to a real medical school, I couldn't tell ya where any of my doctors went. And I don't think it even really matters, as at that point it's all about community reputation and word of mouth than anything else.

Hm.

Still though, I'll be honest. I'm working my ass off in undergrad so I can go to Columbia, Chicago or Michigan. Not for Wayne State or Michigan State. Not that I would a problem with either-- but as I'm at a middle of the top 100 liberal arts schools right now, I feel a desire for some sort of academic luster and shiny names and large endowments. But ultimately I'll be a doctor either way-- so if that means I end up at Wayne State, I'll be just as happy. Mostly I'd just like to live in Manhattan, Chicago or Ann Arbor for a while, over Detroit.

(I've been up for over 20 hours, sorry if the preceeding rant made little sense)

 

[EllieElle]

Are the people who go to Ivy league schools students ones who come from states that dont have good medical schools ?... So why does anyone want to go to the expensive private schools ? Could they not get into their own state schools ?

Some of us don't even have state schools!

 

[laana]

Princeton has a med school?

Princeton does not have a medical school. It has a medical center, a hospital kind of complext named after Princeton, but it doesn't have a medical school. If someone says it has a medical school, find the website address of it. I don't think you'll find its website address, because there is no Princeton Medical school.
And, of course, I could be wrong, but I just searched for it in the search engine, and didn't come up with anything.
It is affiliated with a medical school, but doesn't have its own, I think

 

[firebody]

Princeton does not have a medical school. It has a medical center, a hospital kind of complext named after Princeton, but it doesn't have a medical school. If someone says it has a medical school, find the website address of it. I don't think you'll find its website address, because there is no Princeton Medical school.
And, of course, I could be wrong, but I just searched for it in the search engine, and didn't come up with anything.
It is affiliated with a medical school, but doesn't have its own, I think

THE PEOPLE ON THIS THREAD THAT ARE MENTIONING THAT PRINCETON HAS A MED SCHOOL ARE KIDDING!!! MAN, YOU ANAL PRE-MED'S AND YOUR SEARCH ENGINE....

 

[blueperson]

I don't know if this will help the conversation or not, since I have only taken my first pre-med course and am a long way from thinking about applying. I think it really depends on the person and what they want. I don't know about med school but when I applied to graduate school (public health) the Schools of Public Health were ranked. Right now I believe Hopkins is #1 and UNC and Harvard are #2, etc. At the time, I accepted to several schools, but I'll compare "I" (Ivy League School in NY) and "P" (Midwest Public). The schools were ranked #8 and #3 respectively. However, in the "specialty" area I was in, they were #15 and #2. Since I was nearly $38K a year and P was $14K a year and P was a better school, I went there. However, if I were in a different concentration, maybe I would have chosen I, even though P was an overall better SPH. P offered $ and I couldn't. At least in SPHs, the Ivy Leagues were notorious for admitting more students than what was realistic and assumed/hoped that 50% quit (assuming that the "best" would stay). Harvard is notorious for treating the doctoral students poorly. The public schools did a better job in picking students and working hard so they'd stay.

Now, I know a person who went to an Ivy League med school but her parents are loaded (she worked her first job for spending money) and they are paying everything, like they did for her other degrees. Her parents had connections with almost every admissions committee she applied to. With her money and connections, she could go anywhere and she chose Ivy League (one that was close to her parents beause she was afraid to go too far). To her, private is best. Private elementary, high school, college, masters and medical school. Private tutors all the way, and never had a job. But that is the world she lives in and knows, and is the only one she is comfortable with. And she doesn't want to practice... "doctors have power and I like power so I want to go to medical school." Which leads me to a another thought. Again, it might not relate to medical school, but in public health, many of the people who are leaders come from the public schools such as UNC, Berkeley, Michigan, Minnesota and UIC and the reason is experience. The state schools are much more community-focused and require students to interact with the community (as opposed to Hopkins which does relatively little) and that they get practical experience. I know many who were unhappy with their experiences at Hopkins, Harvard, Yale, etc. because they didn't get the practical experience. This practical experience puts those students ahead of the game as far as practicing what they learn. I once looked at the rankings of "research med schools" and "practice-based med schools." If I recall correctly, many of the Ivy Leagues didn't fair as well in the "practice-based (primary care?) med schools". I think it was in U.S. News and World Report several months ago.

I do agree that many of the state schools- I think people mentioned Berkeley, San Fransisco, Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ohio State etc. - have large science departments and that can be a draw... enormous expertise. It is important to realize that many of these departments support research done in coordination with medical schools as well. Again, I don't know how important it is immediately in med school, but I suspect it might be REALLY important if one is an MD/PhD student or is interested in research in any way. Engineering school helps with medical devices, etc. Just guessing.

I really think the decision of where to go is really up to the individual person. I just thought I'd respond because the topic made me think of some of the experiences I've encountered. Whether they relate to med school directly, I'm not sure. Just grist for the mill.

One last thought... I'd bet that where one goes to school doesn't have a direct correlation with how good the doctor is (listening, compassion, analytical skills, desire to make a difference). I think those things are more important to the patient than what school he/she went to.

 

[DrRads101]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=95190&highlight=michigan+match+feedback

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=95205&highlight=michigan+match+feedback

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~sundeeps/Match.txt

If you like the Midwest, go to Michigan. Let's take a private school that is ranked lower that UM generally, Yale.

Look at its match list:

http://info.med.yale.edu/education/osa/milestones/commencement04/match.html

Compare and contrast in 6 sentences (and PS, since UM is 50% out-of-state, that means half of their class pays the same tuition as Yale students)

All this match list shows is that more people at a midwestern school choose to stay in the midwest, and more people at an eastern school choose to stay in the east. It is no wonder that Michigan has more midwestern students than Yale, and has more people applying for midwestern residencies. And it is no wonder that Yale has more students from the east coast and New England than Michigan, and hence has more people applying to residencies in that area.

It's an apples and oranges comparison. The only way to compare "who matches better" is to interview each person and find out where they applied and what their #1 choice was. I'm willing to bet very few people who are lifelong Michigan residents are dying to leave the state for the east coast, and vice versa, so I don't see how you can compare match lists. I'm in the midwest and I plan on applying to only midwestern residencies because 1) This is my home, and 2) This is where the people I love live. Most other people are like me by the time they apply for residencies, and are not willing to forego home and relationships for fleeting pedigree, especially at my age where you are looking to settle down.

 

[knight12]

You guys seem to know a lot about medical school rankings and I wanted to know what the general opinions of UMDNJ-NJMS and UMDNJ-RWJMS are nowadays. In comparison with other medical schools and each other. Thank you.

 

[Acherona]

You guys seem to know a lot about medical school rankings and I wanted to know what the general opinions of UMDNJ-NJMS and UMDNJ-RWJMS are nowadays. In comparison with other medical schools and each other. Thank you.

Robert Wood has a pretty good reputation as a medical school and research institution. It was originally the med school of Rutgers U (but had to drop the name because apparently the state did not consider it fair for RWJ to benefit from the Rutgers association and not NJMS). NJMS is not as well recognized and does not support much research if any. They are both NJ state schools though so the actual training you get I'm sure is comparable.

 

[Ross434]

Sorry until I see your data I'm going to have to believe what I've heard and read - that Harvard pretty much demolishes every other school in research funding. Oh, by the way I was wrong. They have 3x more funding than the #2 school, not double. Here's the link to USnews rankings:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rankings/med/brief/mdrrank_brief.php

If you don't have a logon you can't see all the #s but Harvard has almost a billion in funding while #2 (WashU) has 373 million. Maybe what you were reading doesn't include research at affiliated hospitals, which makes a huge difference. As a previous poster pointed out MGH has a few researchers.

Madison was #1 public and #2 overall a couple years back (#1 JHU)., with #2 public being michigan. But madison had over 500 million. Has funding really dropped so far as to put washu at #2 with 373 ?
http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2002/02/04/daily14.html

 

[Rendar5]

Harvard has always gotten more research $$$$ than JHU for as long as i can remember. IMO, JHU's a better school, but that doesn't mean much for rankings cause ofthe $$$$ factor.

 

[Fantasy Sports]

All this match list shows is that more people at a midwestern school choose to stay in the midwest, and more people at an eastern school choose to stay in the east. It is no wonder that Michigan has more midwestern students than Yale, and has more people applying for midwestern residencies. And it is no wonder that Yale has more students from the east coast and New England than Michigan, and hence has more people applying to residencies in that area.

It's an apples and oranges comparison. The only way to compare "who matches better" is to interview each person and find out where they applied and what their #1 choice was. I'm willing to bet very few people who are lifelong Michigan residents are dying to leave the state for the east coast, and vice versa, so I don't see how you can compare match lists. I'm in the midwest and I plan on applying to only midwestern residencies because 1) This is my home, and 2) This is where the people I love live. Most other people are like me by the time they apply for residencies, and are not willing to forego home and relationships for fleeting pedigree, especially at my age where you are looking to settle down.

If you read the threads I posted, you would see that those students main complaints were that UM gave you the impression that you could match back home to California or NY, when in fact they didn't have that kind of luck. The match list comparison is just icing on the cake.

 

[45408]

Harvard has always gotten more research $$$$ than JHU for as long as i can remember. IMO, JHU's a better school, but that doesn't mean much for rankings cause ofthe $$$$ factor.

Not sure if this has to do with it, but Harvard has themselves a $22,000,000,000 endowment that might help out a few things?

 

[Ross434]

Not sure if this has to do with it, but Harvard has themselves a $22,000,000,000 endowment that might help out a few things?

I think we were purely referring to government grant money and private donations specifically for research purposes, not college controlled general funds.

 

[CarleneM]

Harvard has always gotten more research $$$$ than JHU for as long as i can remember. IMO, JHU's a better school, but that doesn't mean much for rankings cause ofthe $$$$ factor.

i think the $$ quoted in us news and world report is NIH funding money only. That is where harvard is number 1 by a long shot. Maybe when you take into account other types of research funding, its a different story.

 

[DrOctopus]

You guys seem to know a lot about medical school rankings and I wanted to know what the general opinions of UMDNJ-NJMS and UMDNJ-RWJMS are nowadays. In comparison with other medical schools and each other. Thank you.

NJMS is changing. We've recently doubled our research funding.

$2


Also some Humanism in Medicine center that's the first in the country or something. I don't know what it does really, except it gave a few students a full ride.

 

[Rendar5]

i think the $$ quoted in us news and world report is NIH funding money only. That is where harvard is number 1 by a long shot. Maybe when you take into account other types of research funding, its a different story.

yeah, add in the $22,000,000 endowment referred to above. so that has Harvard way ahead in both government and self-donation.

EDIT:
BTW, i'd never go to Harvard for med school. But anyone looking to get into research, if you want to go where there's an insane amount of funding, u go there. Me? I'm staying the hell away from that. clinical research is as far as i'm ever going down the research road.

 

[CarleneM]

the endowment is for the entire university and not at all med school specific. I don't know the breakdown of it going to the med school but it still doesn't really prove or disprove others claims about harvard's research money.

i love harvard and harvard med and am certainly well aware of how they have a ton of money but just wanted to clarify some of the numbers people were throwing out. I wouldn't doubt they have more research money than jhu but i just don't know.

all i want to do is clinical research also and, trust me, you need plenty of money to do that so "research" schools are still the better way to go if you want to do clinical research.

yeah, add in the $22,000,000 endowment referred to above. so that has Harvard way ahead in both government and self-donation.

EDIT:
BTW, i'd never go to Harvard for med school. But anyone looking to get into research, if you want to go where there's an insane amount of funding, u go there. Me? I'm staying the hell away from that. clinical research is as far as i'm ever going down the research road.

 

[elias514]

If you read the threads I posted, you would see that those students main complaints were that UM gave you the impression that you could match back home to California or NY, when in fact they didn't have that kind of luck. The match list comparison is just icing on the cake.

Alright, this is getting a bit annoying. Pre-meds really have no clue as to how many truly great and highly competitive residency programs are out there. You all tend to focus exclusively on coastal programs, especially Ivy League programs--and use the match rate to these programs as some sort of metric for comparing insitutional reputation, totally ignoring the fact that other programs are VERY competitive and just as good. Admittedly when I was going through the application process I was guilty of the very same thing; but towards the end of the process I abandoned the notion of comparing match lists as a means of evaluating schools, because it's really stupid and misleading. Pre-meds are really in no position to compare the quality of match lists. Let's use Michigan's "weak" match list as a case in point.

1. The matches at Michigan are VERY misleading. Many of the programs at Michigan are highly desirable places to train and, therefore, extremely competitive. For instance, over 400 people, the majority of whom graduated in the uppermost echelon of their respective med school classes, applied for 6 spots in the Michigan dermatology program; if you look at the match list, you'll notice that 3 of those spots went to Michigan grads. In general surgery, there were 3 matches at Michigan (and this is consistently the case each year). Do you all have any idea how freakin hard it is to get into Michigan for general surgery? It's a top five program folks--VERY competitive. For internal medicine, there were 6 matches at Michigan, which is considered by many to be a top ten program (even the bible of gunner pre-meds--US News!). Every year, several Michigan grads stay here for postgraduate training in radiology and ENT; it's a BIG deal to train at Michigan in these fields. They're both amazing departments here.

2. Some of the best residency programs in the country are NOT at "name brand" institutions (Harvard, UCSF, Hopkins, etc.). For instance, many of the most prestigious and competitive ophthalmology programs (and, by the way, ophthalmology in general is a really competitive specialty) are programs that most people wouldn't know from a hole in the wall--Bascom Palmer in Miami, University of Iowa, Wills Eye in Philadelphia, Baylor, Wisconsin-Madison, Scheie Eye Institute in Philly, etc. Here's another addition to that list--MICHIGAN (ranked among the top ten residency programs by Opthalmology Times for several years). Emergency medicine is another example of great programs NOT being name-brand. How many of you know about University of Cincinnati, Carolinas, U Pitt, etc. for emergency medicine? Or what about pediatrics? Do you know about Children's Memorial in Chicago? Probably not, even though it's one of the best pediatric residency programs in the country (over 700 applications for 27 spots last year). I could go on and on, but I'll spare you. The fact of the matter is that Michigan grads consistently end up in many of these programs, but most pre-meds fail to appreciate that.

3. Michigan graduates match at prestigious programs on the coasts. Last year, in internal medicine there were 3 matches at Columbia, 2 at Duke, 2 at UCSF, 1 at Stanford, 1 at the Brigham, 1 at Mount Sinai, 1 at Tufts--that's almost HALF of the internal medicine matches and the majority of those programs are very prestigious. The remainder were at prestigious medicine programs in the Midwest (HELLO--U Chicago, WashU, Michigan???).

C'mon guys and gals. Michigan is an outstanding place to train and the matching history reflects the quality of this institution and its graduates. Quit criticizing things that you don't know very much about and focus on choosing a school where you'll be happy.

Now I get to study for my quiz. God I love studying on Friday nights.

 

[elias514]

Oh, and one more thing regarding match lists: there's no way that you can know the personal preferences associated with each match. Just because a person matches at an unknown program somewhere does NOT necessarily mean that they couldn't have matched elsewhere. (Believe it or not, some people--including some very bright people in my own class--don't want to serve their residencies at high powered academic centers) This is perhaps the best reason why it's pointless to use match lists as a metric for institutional reputation, reputation among residency directors, or whatever.

 

[WatchingWaiting]

Alright, this is getting a bit annoying. Pre-meds really have no clue as to how many truly great and highly competitive residency programs are out there. You all tend to focus exclusively on coastal programs, especially Ivy League programs--and use the match rate to these programs as some sort of metric for comparing insitutional reputation, totally ignoring the fact that other programs are VERY competitive and just as good.

It's noble that you are defending your med school, but, honestly, Michigan doesn't have a very good match list given the academic caliber of its incoming students. The reality is, a third of the students are matching at non-competitive specialties in non-competitive places, which relative to its peers is not impressive. I don't know why you're pointing out all the people matching at Michigan as some badge of honor, as this is true of Harvard, UCSF, Stanford, and every other top-10 med school-- they all send ~1/3 of their grads to their own school for residency. You can try to manipulate things by pointing out a couple of good programs that aren't particularly "name-brand" in the eyes of the average American, but the simple reality is, given the high MCAT/gpa/motivation of its incoming students, the match-list output for UMich just isn't very impressive, and the several posts on the topic indicating an unsympathetic third-year grading policy go a long way towards explaining it.

 

[elias514]

It's noble that you are defending your med school, but, honestly, Michigan doesn't have a very good match list given the academic caliber of its incoming students. The reality is, a third of the students are matching at non-competitive specialties in non-competitive places, which relative to its peers is not impressive. I don't know why you're pointing out all the people matching at Michigan as some badge of honor, as this is true of Harvard, UCSF, Stanford, and every other top-10 med school-- they all send ~1/3 of their grads to their own school for residency. You can try to manipulate things by pointing out a couple of good programs that aren't particularly "name-brand" in the eyes of the average American, but the simple reality is, given the high MCAT/gpa/motivation of its incoming students, the match-list output for UMich just isn't very impressive, and the several posts on the topic indicating an unsympathetic third-year grading policy go a long way towards explaining it.

Your comments assume that EVERY ONE that attends Michigan for med school wants to match into a competitive specialty at a reputable academic center. This assumption is patently false. One of the the only unifying characteristic of the students (in my class anyways) is that we all want to become excellent physicians, but there are many different ways to achieve that goal. Undoubtedly a large proportion of my class is comprised of individuals who want to specialize, serve their residency at a prestigious academic center, become national leaders in their field, etc. BUT there are many people who do NOT want to take that route; some individuals just want to take the private practice route, avoiding research and academics like the plague--that's a fact. Consequently, it's not surprising that every year Michigan graduates people who go into "noncompetitive specialties at noncompetitive places." Believe it or not, med students here choose specialties because they're passionate about them and residency programs that fit their goals and personal needs. The notion that everybody at Michigan wants to go to a high powered institution in a competitive specialty is just ridiculous. One need only spend a few weeks with my classmates to figure that one out.

Also, it's important to keep in mind that many of the very best students at Michigan elect to stay here for residency. There are people who make AOA who stick around for Michigan. I graduated from college Phi Beta Kappa and with a 4.0 and there's no way in hell I'd make AOA here--those people are freakin academic demigods. Christ, the average scores on exams here are the equivalent of an A and we're pass/fail right now! Undoubtedly people who make AOA here can go anywhere and do anything they want; the fact that they stay is a testament to the quality of the training programs here.

Honestly, I don't know why people knock Michigan. It's a great place to study medicine, and 99% of my classmates would heartily agree with that assessment. Every conceivable opportunity, short of the attractions of life in the big city, exists here.