Wildlife DVM/PhD?

[max_wildlife]

Hi all,
So I'm currently a Master's environmental science student with a focus on wildlife health and biology. I'm also a licensed wildlife rehabilitator. I've worked as a wildlife assistant and technician in varying capacities over the past 6 years and I've racked up a lot of professional experience in that field (~4000ish), and I've carved out a pretty cool little niche for myself. I have some clinical experiences in small animal, quite a lot in exotics, and really minimal experiences in barn.

I graduate with my M.S. in August. I'll be doing fieldwork on Lyme this summer. I made a huge error in my Master's program and started on a verbal promise of funding, which never happened, so I've been struggling to make end's meet these past couple years. I decided to pause before pursuing a doctorate in either field. I'm going to get my vet tech license -- I already do a large portion of the work in wildlife; and I believe I have funding secured for it. I really like tech-ing, and having the license will open me up to some more opportunities while I finish vet pre-reqs -- and I think it might be useful if I go the PhD route, too. More on that a bit later.

So that's the run down.

I'm particularly interested in zoonotic disease in wild populations as they are impacted by climate change. So it's a lot of physio, genetics, and general bio. My particular study focuses on vector-borne diseases so I'm equally interested in parasitology, virology, hematology and also epidemiology; also in constructing vertical lifetables of populations after die offs to help identify who is threatened. The caveat is that I'm also interested in the diagnostics and treatment of wildlife when those phenomena occur. Like, I want to help those that may have been impacted by catastrophe (in those instances when I can, and it's not a threat to the integrity of the study) not just leave them. I've had numerous meetings with multiple biologists and multiple veterinarians; skype calls with DVM/PhDs at several institutions. No one quite seems sure to advise me.

Most of the vets that I've talked to push me toward biology (their point: greater large-scale impact, better likelihood of making a living working with the species you want to). Most of the biologists I talk to push me towards veterinary medicine (their point: autonomy in research and design; potentially more income if you're able to secure one of the rare coveted jobs available as a field vet; can still work in biology.). Only one vet and one biologist, respectively, suggested each of their fields.

My concerns are mostly financial at this point. And slightly academic.

My GPA is a 3.4 right now; I'm like 2/3 of the way done with pre-reqs and trying to bolster the grades I've dragged with me since I was a careless undergrad.

As for the finances...
I turn 26 in April. From what I can tell, it's fairly normal to finish either program in your early 30s -- but I am concerned about leading such an unstable life for the long term. I've already been in school for nearly 8 years. The debt is scary, and I'm not pursuing a field known for its payback. So I'm a little torn. I can get funded for a PhD program. It looks like I really can't for a DVM program. Some DVM/PhD programs seem like they are funded, but they seem majorly competitive and honestly, more stressful with the time-constraints. I have no idea what to do -- and I'm hoping to do a lot of thinking over these next two years as I work in the field and study. Any clarity on this would be greatly appreciated.

I like what I know of medicine so far. But the idea of being trapped in a small animal clinic to pay back crazy loans sounds awful to me. I'm a dual citizen as well and wondering if may be cheaper to do in the EU, but I also am unsure about uprooting so much of my career. My goal is to be a leader in the wildlife field and in wildlife disease and One Health; I'll figure it out. But any advice would be great.

Thanks in advance!

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[labrat9]

First of all, you've done a lot to be proud of so congradulations.

Second to answer your question, PhD's can be funded (not gauranteed with acceptance and I believe that wildlife/zoo can often be strapped for cash for both stand alone PhD or combined programs, but maybe someone more versed in this discipline can chime in). Scholarships are possible but full funding is uncommon for stand alone DVM's.

Third, it sounds like you have a decent handle on what each profession entails, you have talked to professionals on both sides (either the researchers or vets or combined) and are looking for affirmation on making a decision. A forum full of students (mostly pre vet, current vet, or some practicing) is not going to give you much more information than you've found through mentors. This is a decision for you alone to make, not for strangers on the internet to convince you to do.

Take some time, analyze the information you've gathered, weigh the financial options, apply for both, see what you get, and go with you gut.

Best of luck !

 

[max_wildlife]

Third, it sounds like you have a decent handle on what each profession entails, you have talked to professionals on both sides (either the researchers or vets or combined) and are looking for affirmation on making a decision. A forum full of students (mostly pre vet, current vet, or some practicing) is not going to give you much more information than you've found through mentors. This is a decision for you alone to make, not for strangers on the internet to convince you to do.

Take some time, analyze the information you've gathered, weigh the financial options, apply for both, see what you get, and go with you gut.

Best of luck !

Thanks!

Though, I'm not looking for affirmation so much as a conversation. Strangers don't really convince me of much 😉. Mostly looking to hear from people that are in school right now or planning to pursue wildlife med. I have great mentors, but they all finished school 20+ years ago. They say themselves that they can't speak on what it's like right now, or how they'd advise me (aside from that many of them are unhappy in their careers). So I'm curious as to if there are any wildlife med students on here, and if they are, what they think of their current studies, and what ultimately pushed them to pursue medicine. Because I'm wondering how those skills can be applied if you can't make a living as a wildlife vet alone, and would rather not work in private practice. There's other things I'd pursue, like epi and pathology, but how accessible are those careers? Can you juggle both? Should I anticipate relocating? Things like that.

 

[kaydubs]

Thanks!

Though, I'm not looking for affirmation so much as a conversation. Strangers don't really convince me of much 😉. Mostly looking to hear from people that are in school right now or planning to pursue wildlife med. I have great mentors, but they all finished school 20+ years ago. They say themselves that they can't speak on what it's like right now, or how they'd advise me (aside from that many of them are unhappy in their careers). So I'm curious as to if there are any wildlife med students on here, and if they are, what they think of their current studies, and what ultimately pushed them to pursue medicine. Because I'm wondering how those skills can be applied if you can't make a living as a wildlife vet alone, and would rather not work in private practice. There's other things I'd pursue, like epi and pathology, but how accessible are those careers? Can you juggle both? Should I anticipate relocating? Things like that.

One of my best friends is pursuing a hopeful career in wildlife med. I also love it and hope to end up in my desired field of aquatics and conservation med someday. I can answer as best as I can. Feel free to private message me or I can comment directly here if you’d prefer.

 

[max_wildlife]

One of my best friends is pursuing a hopeful career in wildlife med. I also love it and hope to end up in my desired field of aquatics and conservation med someday. I can answer as best as I can. Feel free to private message me or I can comment directly here if you’d prefer.

oh awesome! I will send you a pm, thanks!

 

[that redhead]

I like what I know of medicine so far. But the idea of being trapped in a small animal clinic to pay back crazy loans sounds awful to me.

I think this right here is your answer: go for the PhD. You can still work with wildlife in a medical sense by continuing to do wildlife rehab but there is no guarantee that you will get one of the highly competitive and not-well-paying jobs in wildlife med where you're actually out in the field with the critters. If you don't get one of those jobs, that means you've got a degree with a steep price tag where the "fall back" line of work is GP, which you aren't in to. Not to mention the vast majority of vet school focuses on dogs, cats, horses and cows and very little, if any wildlife information. Some vets go into epidemiology - government work, basically - but a lot of those people do some trench work before going that way. Not saying it's impossible, just seems a far better use of your time and money to go for the PhD.

 

[max_wildlife]

I think this right here is your answer: go for the PhD. You can still work with wildlife in a medical sense by continuing to do wildlife rehab but there is no guarantee that you will get one of the highly competitive and not-well-paying jobs in wildlife med where you're actually out in the field with the critters. If you don't get one of those jobs, that means you've got a degree with a steep price tag where the "fall back" line of work is GP, which you aren't in to. Not to mention the vast majority of vet school focuses on dogs, cats, horses and cows and very little, if any wildlife information. Some vets go into epidemiology - government work, basically - but a lot of those people do some trench work before going that way. Not saying it's impossible, just seems a far better use of your time and money to go for the PhD.

helpful. thank you!

 

[Cephal0pod]

I agree with trh.

I am a zoo/wildlife inclined individual who heavily considered the DVM/PhD route for a while, but realized I wanted to be a clinician who also does research vs. primarily a researcher. It definitely sounds like you are more bent toward the research aspect, and a PhD program (that could potentially be funded, very unlike a DVM program) could make the most sense.

I have also been told that if you are serious about predominantly doing research, doing a PhD program can be a better way to go than a DVM/PhD program because you inherently get more time in being trained to do research/have more time to do a more rigorous dissertation. There are others here who could speak to that better than I, but I think it is worth noting.

 

[max_wildlife]

I agree with trh.

I am a zoo/wildlife inclined individual who heavily considered the DVM/PhD route for a while, but realized I wanted to be a clinician who also does research vs. primarily a researcher. It definitely sounds like you are more bent toward the research aspect, and a PhD program (that could potentially be funded, very unlike a DVM program) could make the most sense.

I have also been told that if you are serious about predominantly doing research, doing a PhD program can be a better way to go than a DVM/PhD program because you inherently get more time in being trained to do research/have more time to do a more rigorous dissertation. There are others here who could speak to that better than I, but I think it is worth noting.

This was insightful. Thank you.
The 'clinician-who-does-research' route also kind of appeals to me, but not in SA. I do really like pathology, and also diagnostic imaging. The biologist I know performs quick fixes in the environment while in the field. I like the freedom associated with a PhD, but my one advisor makes a good point. He says that he loves biology, but it would be easier if he was also a veterinarian. The wildlife biologists I know conduct field procedures that include euthanasia and suturing when need be and I'm not sure what kind of training they have that makes that okay. Their research plans are approved by veterinarians. I don't know what sort of problems this leads to. Sometimes I feel like I'm still not getting

That second point is interesting. I know of one PhD program where I believe you can take gross pathology and other more hands-on courses. But my current Master's is weird. I was only expected to take a couple of classes per semester, and didn't get much hands-on research. Spent way more time reading journals. I didn't even take field-based classes until this year aside from ornithology last spring. So nearly all of my hands-on work was maintained by keeping up with the vet that I regularly work with. One of the reasons I'm apprehensive about the PhD route is that I'm worried about getting sucked into a program that focuses more on theory than hands-on applications. And I'm at a school that's really well-known for research, so I figure if it happens here, it can happen anywhere.

 

[lilylilac]

One of the reasons I'm apprehensive about the PhD route is that I'm worried about getting sucked into a program that focuses more on theory than hands-on applications.

Hate to break it to you, but that’s one of the main points of a PhD program. You are taught to think critically of what your scientific experiments add to the field, as well as determining how well other studies have been performed/their validity. You can’t simply jump into your own experimentation without knowing the theory behind why you’re doing what you’re doing and be able to defend it. The actual dissertation/experimentation aspect is a means to building your ability for critical thinking and it’s not as much what you did but your ability to understand, explain, and defend why you did what you did. There would be days to weeks where I would scour literature in order to come up with a hypothesis and experimental design because I wanted to make sure 1) it had never previously been done and 2) I was conducting the experiment properly and it would answer the question I was trying to work out. Yes there are times where you get to be very hands on, but you need to know the theory first.

 

[max_wildlife]

Hate to break it to you, but that’s one of the main points of a PhD program. You are taught to think critically of what your scientific experiments add to the field, as well as determining how well other studies have been performed/their validity. You can’t simply jump into your own experimentation without knowing the theory behind why you’re doing what you’re doing and be able to defend it. The actual dissertation/experimentation aspect is a means to building your ability for critical thinking and it’s not as much what you did but your ability to understand, explain, and defend why you did what you did. There would be days to weeks where I would scour literature in order to come up with a hypothesis and experimental design because I wanted to make sure 1) it had never previously been done and 2) I was conducting the experiment properly and it would answer the question I was trying to work out. Yes there are times where you get to be very hands on, but you need to know the theory first.

I'm writing a thesis. I get that. I spend four-eight hours a day scouring literature about Lyme. Let me clarify -- I don't get to do any fieldwork for my current program due to a funding debacle that involved a school president who stepped down -- only statistical analysis of existing data -- and I only hope that I would be allowed to design and implement an actual hands-on study in a PhD. I've been living in the library in this past month, the literature review process may actually own my soul at this point.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Have you considered an MPH perhaps? With a focus on zoonotic dz and epidemiology? If you want to be into high-level research as a vet, you're most likely going to need a PhD on top of the DVM anyway, as vet school does not really prepare you for a research career. It's a clinical degree. You're not going to have much autonomy in research design when you don't have a research degree other than an MS (not to downplay your accomplishments, just being real when it comes to the incredibly competitive research funding environment we have nowadays).

A well-trained wildlife person can do most basic hands-on stuff in the field, just as a well-trained PhD can do most basic research animal stuff in the lab (usually mice, pigs, etc). You don't need a DVM to do it, and the debt and time it would take to get one doesn't really seem to give you a worthwhile advantage IMO. I think the PhD route would be more beneficial for you in the long term based on what it sounds like you want to do.

 

[max_wildlife]

Have you considered an MPH perhaps? With a focus on zoonotic dz and epidemiology? If you want to be into high-level research as a vet, you're most likely going to need a PhD on top of the DVM anyway, as vet school does not really prepare you for a research career. It's a clinical degree. You're not going to have much autonomy in research design when you don't have a research degree other than an MS (not to downplay your accomplishments, just being real when it comes to the incredibly competitive research funding environment we have nowadays).

A well-trained wildlife person can do most basic hands-on stuff in the field, just as a well-trained PhD can do most basic research animal stuff in the lab (usually mice, pigs, etc). You don't need a DVM to do it, and the debt and time it would take to get one doesn't really seem to give you a worthwhile advantage IMO. I think the PhD route would be more beneficial for you in the long term based on what it sounds like you want to do.

That makes sense. I considered doing an advanced certificate in public health which I could've completed in a year. I was planning to do it at the same time as my Master's, but ended up doing a wildlife bio certificate instead, it was more cost-effective and seemed equally as important. Might try to do the public health cert at some point, as I'll be in school the next couple years anyway. I do really like epi. And thank you for your honesty -- I'm trying to navigate the messy funding world as well as I can. Do you think doing an MPH would be more beneficial than a cert, if I ended up doing a PhD in zoonotic disease?

By 2020 my certs should be: M.S. Environmental Science (thesis on climate impacts on zoonotic disease), LVT, Associate Wildlife Biologist (professional certificate), state-licensed Wildlife Rehabilitator and Rabies Vector Species assistant, USFWs wildlife rehabilitation subpermittee.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Damn, that's a lot...it is sounding like a government job might be right up your alley. If you did a PhD I feel like an MPH on top of that might be a bit superfluous given your other credentials, although a less time-consuming certification in public health would be a nice little feather in your hat if you had the time and inclination.

 

[max_wildlife]

Damn, that's a lot...it is sounding like a government job might be right up your alley. If you did a PhD I feel like an MPH on top of that might be a bit superfluous given your other credentials, although a less time-consuming certification in public health would be a nice little feather in your hat if you had the time and inclination.

Yeah, it's...kinda crazy. But thanks. I'm going to try and check out USGS wildlife health lab in Minnesota this summer to get a better idea. I think I'd rather be a professor so I have some freedom to explore what I want, but I'm still not sure. I'll know once I see it, I think. I mostly want to start my own wildlife rehab and research center, or at least help start one. I see a lot of opportunities for wildlife biological applications that are largely ignored or unknown to many rehabbers, especially in the realms of zoonotic disease and epi. I've learned about some simple methods exist that I think can help build existing data. So I kinda want to try and shake things up and expand the field. From experience though, I know that would likely never be a reliable full-time gig so I think it'd have to be an aside while I supplement with something intense like academia or gov't. I figure I can't really do either of those things without a lot of credentials. And the more I learn, the better practitioner and research I'll be. I just try to avoid looking at my student loans as much as possible

 

[Awapi]

I have an MPH and was a senior level zoonotic and vectorborne disease epidemiologist for several years before leaving last year to start vet school. I would not recommend a certificate in public health and I think it would be difficult to do what you describe here with an MPH, and especially with an MPH alone - this is basically the reason I quit an awesome job that I LOVED to go back to school, because I maxed out. My background is not identical to what you're describing, but I can recognize from your description that you would likely hit a ceiling with an MPH like I did and then either have to stay stagnant or go back to school for the DVM or PhD (which is not fun after many years working in the field, especially if you love it). Although I think I took the right path for me and the things I want to do, I think just going for a PhD or DVM/PhD would be better for what you are thinking.

 

[max_wildlife]

I have an MPH and was a senior level zoonotic and vectorborne disease epidemiologist for several years before leaving last year to start vet school. I would not recommend a certificate in public health and I think it would be difficult to do what you describe here with an MPH, and especially with an MPH alone - this is basically the reason I quit an awesome job that I LOVED to go back to school, because I maxed out. My background is not identical to what you're describing, but I can recognize from your description that you would likely hit a ceiling with an MPH like I did and then either have to stay stagnant or go back to school for the DVM or PhD (which is not fun after many years working in the field, especially if you love it). Although I think I took the right path for me and the things I want to do, I think just going for a PhD or DVM/PhD would be better for what you are thinking.

Good to know, thank you. Out of curiosity, did you do much hands-on work as a zoonotic disease epidemiologist? Or was it mostly computer-oriented? I'm definitely leaning PhDish at this point, though I will likely finish up my veterinary pre-reqs as well just to see if DVM/PhD is an option

 

[Awapi]

Good to know, thank you. Out of curiosity, did you do much hands-on work as a zoonotic disease epidemiologist? Or was it mostly computer-oriented? I'm definitely leaning PhDish at this point, though I will likely finish up my veterinary pre-reqs as well just to see if DVM/PhD is an option

I did a really wide variety of things which included some hands-on stuff. I was emergency preparedness funded and was the Zika Epi Lead for the state so I was all over the place (computer, field, emergency operations center, etc). With epidemiology and public health, a lot of the solutions are in the data - so even with emergency preparedness, a part of my job was rapidly coming up with a surveillance system for an emerging health threat, noticing ongoing changes in data trends to prevent additional illness, etc. So although there was often computer stuff, I wouldn't classify as "sitting behind a computer" in the way people talk about dreary office jobs, if that makes sense. For most (not all) jobs in public health, there's not likely to be a lot of hands-on touching of animals unless you work for USDA, for a private university/research organization, or are a lab animal veterinarian. For what you're describing above, you'll likely find most of those jobs in the private sector as opposed to government/public sector which is where I fit.