will my american dream come true?

[logistical99]

I was accepted to both medical and dental schools. My lifelong goal was to become a trauma surgeon and my heart hasn't changed. But the problem is that I am very lazy ( but I am responsible )and I am sick of taking exams and being put on pressure. I want to have a really comfortable lifestyle where I can make lots of money without working hard anymore. If anything, the only things I really like are TV shows, nintendo games, comic books, and handball and I want to put most of my future time into these activities. I tried my best to become the man that God wants me to be but I don't really care anymore.

I can't do all those things AND be a surgeon at the same time so I ditched my medical schools and chose dentistry. I do not feel life is not worth living under stress but I still do want to become a surgeon.

Starting this fall, I now only have 4 yrs of dental education. After getting my DMD, I do not want to go thru any more training and I want to set up practice at my 2-story house right away in NYC. I want to be my own boss who can work when and where he wants. I plan to do everything myself, including getting the phone and bookkeeping.

I'm hoping to do things like cleaning and pulling teeth, and doing a lot of checkups. I am thinking of working only on late Mondays and Tuesdays for about 40 weeks / year. I only need to make about $800 / day, which can bring me about profits of $64k per year. ( not so bad considering my situation )

But there is a problem: I expect college and DMD debts that mount up to maybe $150k / year. ( still the cheapest I could find out of the schools I got into ) Also, I do not plan to live with anyone and I will live all by myself. However, I expect to take out massive health insurance due to my high blood pressure and my fear of a future heart disease. Yet, with a $64k salary, I still expect to be able to spread out and pay off the debt in about 10 yrs and still be able to live comfortably.

Are my prospects realistic? Is this how dental economics work?
Will I support myself well at his state, even while I am still paying off school loans?

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[Dens Medicus]

Cheers mate,

You just started WWIII. There's only room for your blood pressure to go up from here...'cause people are gonna get on your arse, buddy. Anyway, I have a big problem with your post and you should apologize for not mentioning in that essay you wrote, not once, beer. Shame on you!

Cheers

 

[logistical99]

why are you being mean? I never insulted anyone and I had legitimately gotten into dental schools, which is none of your business.

 

[Dens Medicus]

Say what????

 

[Pre-Dent-David]

Dont playa hate ringo. bizoh

 

[groundhog]

logistical99,
You might run into problems maintaining a patient base over the long run. If all you want to do is clean, examine, and extract then you would have to refer your patients to other dentists for many routine procedures. Those patients may soon loose confidence in your abilities and may also tire of being shuttled off to other offices. I believe you would stand a good chance of loosing your patients to your referrals and word of mouth advertisement would soon cause many new potential patients to avoid your services.

 

[3rdMolarRoller]

I agree. If your in for the money it will show in your work... poor work. Just like in any other profession you have to have a love and a passion for the work.

You might want to re-examine your other alternatives before you invest in a dental career. My friend is making $60,000 a year with an MBA with no experience and he hasn't graduated yet (he's 23). In about 5 years he will be making over $100k.

If you want money I suggest you look to another field bec there are easier ways to get $$$

 

[logistical99]

oh ok. Then what if I offer a variety of dental treatment to patients?

Then will my plan work?

Also, don't get me confused with a dentist that doesn't care about his patients. It is quality that matters, not quantity. Even if I work less, my patients will keep coming back for more.

I will not consider an MBA because I want to be my own boss, set my own schedule, work at home, and use my scientific and artistic abilities. My career goals are my own decision, and I am only asking for what I need to change for my prospects of dentistry.

I know what I am doing. Just tell me if my plans will work.

 

[Dens Medicus]

Cheers mate,

Do you know what you're doing, or do you want us to tell you if your plan will work? Make up your mind! Which one is it?

Say, "Money"!

 

[logistical99]

Dens Medicus,

64k is not a lot of money. Also, I will be experiencing red ink in finances due to educational loan. I am all by myself and there is no one to support me.

I don't want to work for a company and I enjoy using my scientific and artistic skills if I am ever to work.

Unless if you will be paying for my education, leave this thread alone and troll elsewhere.

 

[DesiDentist]

Here read my masterpiece from "Page of Rhymez"

Now the times have CHANGED,
MDs think they have been FRAMED.
Their egos have been MAIMED.

Slowly everyone is REALIZING,
Wow, dentists make mulah, that is SURPRISING.

I'm glad to have made the right CHOICE,
I know at night I will hear my wifes VOICE.
Now with my family I can REJOICE.

Rather than waking up in middle of the NIGHT,
Hating the pager that brought you this PLIGHT.
Remember the times when you had time to fly a KITE.
That is no more, you're angry and you want to FIGHT.

Those of you who aren't in that TRANCE,
Think twice before you ask Med-school for a CHANCE.

Rather than getting ACCEPTED and wishing you were REJECTED,
so you could be a dentist so life was PERFECTED.

Now I know some will SAY,
"Looking into Mouths, that is GAY."
I will just smile, and tell you,
"How about letting your Finger LINGER,
in someone's DINGER?
Is that a better game you like to PLAY?"

Or giving someone a physical, and having them COUGH,
Only to find a tube sock up their JOCK.
So all those excuses are CROCK.

Dentists rule! 'nuff said. now let's go to bed. "no pagers required."



DesiDentist

See all the other Rhymez, and include yours at the following link:

http://www.studentdoctor.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58925

 

[jojo2280]

FOB

 

[jojo2280]

Let me specify, logistical is acting very fobishly

 

[ddstothecor]

logistical 99, You have chosen wisely young grasshopper.

Dentistry will you give you flexibility with your time, and working 40 hours a week will allow you to fulfill your Nintendo destiny. You will pay off your loans in ten years. Actually, you'll make more than 64k/yr, but your laziness will have to wait until you graduate! Still, your life will be your own upon completion of the curriculum. You may want to start out as an associate to secure patients, but I wish you the best of luck in starting a practice from scratch.
Congratulations on your hard work!

 

[logistical99]

Thanks for all your feedback. But I have other concerns as well.

After I get my DMD and license, will I need any kind of special permit or site to open up my dental practice? Will I be allowed to practice dentistry at my own house? Are there dentists that do this?

And can anyone tell me how dental economics work exactly? When I first hang up my DMD shingle near the entrance of my dental clinic, is it reasonable to expect patients coming in from that day on? Will I need to do anything else to attract patients?

I know this sounds kind of strange but do new dentists ( with their own practice )sometimes screw up in the middle of their treatment? If so, what do they do and who do they ask for help? Can they get sued?

And I won't need secretaries or dental assistants or hygienists ( I don't know the difference between the two ), right? With the $800- 1000 I hope to make each day, I will lose a good portion of them to paying off debt, utility bills, taxes, insurance, etc that I won't have enough left to support one more person.

 

[xc1999]

Well, I don't know about not having any dental assistants around. Sometimes procedures work much faster when you have a dental assistant, and if patients find another dentist that can work faster for the same quality, they'll probably go to that dentist instead. And if you plan on practicing in NYC, GOOD LUCK! There's a LOT of dentists there, so you will be dealing with a lot of competition.

As for screwing up in a procedure...well, like the medical profession, the dental profession does have malpractice insurance that you will have to deal with. And it is usually best to become an associate so you get an idea of what the business side of dentistry is like. Although you could start your own practice right after you get your DMD/DDS, you may not have a lot of patients flowing in the first one. In fact, I know one dentist that both owns a practice and works as an associate. He only works in his own practice two times a week because there isn't enough of a patient base.

And whether or not you can pratice dentistry at your own house....I'm not too sure about that either. might want to go onto the DDS/DMD forum and ask what they think. Oh and by the way, there is a journal called "Dental Economics"....you may want to look in there to see what they say.

Honestly, if I were you, I'd proabably aim for more than 64K/year. Although if you practice good quality dentistry and patients come in to see you (and you get a lot of referrals), then you'll probably be making more than that per year.

Lastly, make sure you try to keep your blood pressure down. I realize that'll require more work, but you don't want to have a heart attack in the middle of a procedure on a patient, especially if you expect to have no dental assistant, hygenists, or even a receptionist around

 

[logistical99]

Originally posted by xc1999
Well, I don't know about not having any dental assistants around. Sometimes procedures work much faster when you have a dental assistant, and if patients find another dentist that can work faster for the same quality, they'll probably go to that dentist instead. And if you plan on practicing in NYC, GOOD LUCK! There's a LOT of dentists there, so you will be dealing with a lot of competition.

Honestly, if I were you, I'd proabably aim for more than 64K/year. Although if you practice good quality dentistry and patients come in to see you (and you get a lot of referrals), then you'll probably be making more than that per year.

Now, it can't really be as bad as you say, right?

Dental economics are very similar to what barbers face but I thought dentists would be much better off. Unlike barbershops, I heard that dental clinics are rated as one of top 5% businesses that is less likely to go bankrupt. The fact that a dentist's success depends on geographic locations and number of competitors doesn't sound so good.

And what is it about referrals you were mentioning about? If I get the word out that I'm a dentist, then isn't that a referral itself? I'll be doing general dentistry where the public comes to me directly, so what do referrals have to do with this?

Also, you mentioned it is better to aim higher than 64k? What would be the point of this? to make more money? The latter isn't enough to motivate me because I'm not financially excited about like $25- $75 per hour. I know it all adds up in the long run but the same could be said even for $1 - $24 / hour.

Do patients regularly pay by cash? If a dentist receives cash, is that supposed to be reported on the annual tax statement?

 

[DATMATT]

I must admit I could not bear to finish reading all these posts. It makes dentist wannabes look bad.

What I did read:

The 1st post: "I want to have a really comfortable lifestyle where I can make lots of money without working hard anymore. If anything, the only things I really like are TV shows, nintendo games, comic books, and handball and I want to put most of my future time into these activities."

IMHO from what I hear, you will be lucky to get through dental school. Next you contradict yourself...

"I plan to do everything myself, including getting the phone and bookkeeping. "

Yes you can do it, but you will be working a ton. There is a reason people hire help. I know, your goal is only to make 64K per year (net I assume) so start shooting for 100K per year.

In another post I read: "Do patients regularly pay by cash? If a dentist receives cash, is that supposed to be reported on the annual tax statement?" Yes you must report cash payments to run a legal business, is this a real question? I know many people in business do not report it but ethically you should.

 

[Zurich5]

The 1st post: "I want to have a really comfortable lifestyle where I can make lots of money without working hard anymore. If anything, the only things I really like are TV shows, nintendo games, comic books, and handball and I want to put most of my future time into these activities."

Do you smoke alot of pot? Just asking.

 

[ddstothecor]

logistical99, I understand your lack of motivation, but I hope that doesn't translate into lack of focus in your professional work. Being a dentist is a serious responsibility as is being a surgeon. You have an obligation to perform quality work, and you are accountable for your performance in either profession. I'm sure you've put forth a serious amount of effort to be accepted into both dental and medical school. Wherever you decide to end-up, you will need to continue with vigor for at least the next four years. From what it seems, dental school is very challenging (You may be gifted, and can excel with little or no effort).
When you do become a dentist, you will be expected to account for every dollar (cash or not) that flows through your business. If you wish to hide your profits, the drug trade is not income that is traceable. Also, there may be a way to establish a money laundering scheme as a way to disguise your cash-base, but I'm not the one to consult for that activity. Basically, every service you provide will be tracked, though, because you will be expected to keep updated and accurate records and charts for each patient. Therefore, the IRS will be able to establish an accurate gross income for you on an annual basis based on the information stored in your office.
As for your question about referrals: A dental practice is a business. As any other business, success depends on satisfied customers, and their recommendation to others that they subscribe to your services. If you want a worthwhile practice, then you'll want people to appreciate you and to tell other prospective patients about your expertise. Simply putting up a sign in front of your house that says, "Jo Schmo-Dentist" doesn't guarantee that people will walk in for your care. Sure, getting the word out yourself is useful, but you will gain far more business in the long run based on your competence and people's appreciation of your work. Good luck to you in your future endeavor--whatever that may be!

 

[groundhog]

Yes, offering many of the routine dental procedures would be a more prudent stratedgy. You would then have a better chance of building your practice to the point of netting about $64K per year. Once there, you could then stop accepting new patients unless one of your regulars moves on. You would have an opportunity to establish a real connection with a small but loyal patient base (a form on non-monetary compenstation that you might find appealing). Good luck.

 

[logistical99]

I thought people weren't required to report cash on their tax incomes. Besides, if you keep very little money in your bank accounts, make bill payments via money order or cash, and leave very little traces of your spending and earning activities, there is virtually no way the IRS ( smart and hardworking like ADEA ? ) would know how much you're making even if they tried their best.

This is an issue of concern for all new dentists because, in my case, I would make 64k / yr. ( most of you will too but new dentists make only slightly more than 50k anyway, in NYC) I would have to start paying off loans from education/establishing practice. That might be like a 20k annual deduction from my net. I have high blood pressure and the insecurity of my health would incline me take out another 5k / yr in health insurance. Utility bills would be estimated at around another 5 k / yr. Dental supplies can account for an extra 10k.

Now, I would be then be left with a meager 24k annual profit. If I were to pay full taxes on my annual 64k, I would only have a couple thousand left and I have no reason to live if I'm not being rewarded for what I do. I know that other new dentists would be in a different situation but they can all relate to me in one way or another.

By the way, how would the IRS know exactly that you're not reporting your cash earnings correctly? I don't understand how it works.

 

[DATMATT]

There is no question that many people cheat the IRS. I am sure most of them do not get caught. However, ethically and business-wise it is in your best interest to report all money you take in. People like receipts for services rendered. They also can use medical expenses for tax deductions so they may even demand receipts for this reason. I am also sure that someone uninsured would be willing to pay cash for a 20% discount. In short, even though it is unlikely you will be caught if you do not report small amounts of cash, you could face criminal charges for cheating on your taxes and I am sure it will not be worth it. Anyone else out there w/ any ideas or stories on payments/cash/taxes???

Matt

 

[3rdMolarRoller]

Listen everyone...there are so many ways that you could "clean" your cash legally!!!

Thats why I was saying its worth getting an MBA. If I were to post on here how to do it...it would be 100+ pages long.

As with everything, there are loop holes, you just have to find them. One of the best things to do is set up a multi corp or LLC practice... i.e. have more than one corp under your roof. The benefits are awesome... for example you could depreciate some equpiment for 5 years (lets assume that this is its deprecation schedule end life), sell it to your other corp and depreciate it again...all of this lowers your income tax.

Man I could go forever on this...its all i've been doing the past two years is trying to figure out how to run the most efficient practice...actually i'm writing a paper now on Gaining and sustaining a competitive advantage in a dental practice.

Go to the IRS website bec they have some great tutorials.

My advice don't try to screw the IRS bec I've seen people get burned bad...really bad. While I worked for Citibank I've seen professionals pay up to $80,000 in back taxes.

Also remember this, the IRS has a profile on each job. If you fall below certain thresholds in salary (which I wish I knew what it was), the computer will flag you and you will get an audit.

As mentioned before, if one of your patients gets an audit and then the IRS comes asking for your records...enjoy trying to explain to them how you live what appears to be $80k a year life style when all you claimed was $64k

 

[ALI]

Guys, I actually know a dentist whose practice fits Logistical99's description. He runs a small office, no recptionist, no assistant, no computer, no file cabinet, NO RECORD( I never fill out any form). I pay him cash every time. He uses his salary to support his hobbies(tennis, vegas trip). He works 1 day a week or 7 days a week depend on his mood. He can take 4 hours lunch break if he wants. He is a pretty skillful dentist and seems doing fine.

 

[savvysearch]

Wouldnt it be easier and cheaper to just work for someone instead of setting up a practice? There are always clinics looking for dentists who practice for a couple days of the week. Your plan is feasable.

 

[Beagle]

Yes, but Logistical wants to have his own practice and be his own boss.....

 

[logistical99]

One of you guys implied that no one will ever come see me for dental treatment.

But what if I end up as an HMO/Medicaid dentist?

I heard that HMOs are hungry to sign up dentists for their plans and I am confident that I can enroll too if I apply. Given that there are a lot patients under these plans and since many dentists refuse to accept these insurances, I can be sure to have a vast patient pool even in my crowded region ( nyc ), right?

So I don't understand where you are getting the idea that I'll be having problems maintaining my patient database. I don't care what you say about me. At the very least, I wouldn't be one of those greedy dentists that would turn away HMO patients. And I still can't comprehend how referrals come into play.

 

[mcataz]

I have the opportunity to attend a medical. I'm pretty much assured that, but dentistry is what I want to do. And I think it will be harder for me to get into dental school since there aren't as many dental schools and the demand for dental school has gone up recently.

I know some people will be offended by your post because no one likes to think of their career as a 2 dimensional money making one.

However, I think you are in the right field. Dentisty offers a better lifesyle and pay(depends where you practice). I work for a dentist and he make a lot of money and he works roughly 35 hours per week. That's not bad at all.

As a physician, you will not only have residency, but you will have to pass 3 board exams. In addition, your flexibility is limited as well since you have to get licensed in each state. In dentistry, they have certain licenses that allow you to practice in a multitude of states. Also, you will practically have no call or the chance of being paged as a general dentist. That's huge.

Ultimately, you should do what you want to do. I agree that lifestyle should be taken into consideration, but it shouldn't be your only concern. Seriously, think about what you enjoy doing. And ultimately, realize that no career will suit all your needs. I think as dentists we do take sort of a hit in the reputation department when compared with physicians. I'm aware of that. But I would prefer a better income, less bureacracy, less stress and more interesting work (as far as I'm concerned) over reputation. So just accept that you can't have it all.

Good Luck

 

[Supernumerary]

At the very least, I wouldn't be one of those greedy dentists that would turn away HMO patients.

Not accepting HMOs and DMOs is not just about being too greedy to accept low fees. It is also about preserving the quality of dentistry for both patient and provider. In the long run, people usually end up paying the same for their dental or healthcare through an HMO plan as they would have if they had just payed for services when they were needed. The payments are just spread out, but they are still stuck with restricted options for choosing dentists and always feel like they can't get "cosmetic" procedures that would greatly improve their lives because "it's not covered by my insurance."

And I still can't comprehend how referrals come into play.

Very few people just walk in off the street and visit any old dentist when they need care. They make a conscious and active decision to choose a family/personal dentist whom they will likely visit until they die or move. This decision process almost always involves asking friends/relatives/acquaintances about their own personal dentists - if nobody has a kind word to say about you, you're not going to be seeing many people walk through your door.