Will the DO/MD merger make it easier for a DO to do neurosurgery?
Started by jorge921995
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I think primary care and other non-competitive residencies will become easier to get just because they will become available as an option to DO students whereas now many programs do not take DOs. Expect no change in competitive fields; if anything it will become harder to match since AOA programs are closing down and the ones remaining will become available to MD students.
So can anyone explain what is the point of the merger?
I thought (perhaps mistakenly) that it would help DOs have more access to more residency opportunities, including more competitive specialities. If both MDs and DOs have access to the same residencies, won't it just depend on the student that has the best grades/ranking in their MS class, LORs, Step scores, etc.?
I thought (perhaps mistakenly) that it would help DOs have more access to more residency opportunities, including more competitive specialities. If both MDs and DOs have access to the same residencies, won't it just depend on the student that has the best grades/ranking in their MS class, LORs, Step scores, etc.?
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I thought the point of the merger was to standardize residency licensing for all physicians going forward (MD and DO). I don't think the merger will make a notoriously competitive specialty like neurosurgery any easier to obtain for either MDs or DOs. If anything, it will be more competeive bc more pple will be able to apply to said specialities without the prior restrictions
No. DOs will still be discriminated against in the most competitive specialties. The merger is really to get DOs to have a easier time applying to the lower-tier residencies that MDs don’t want. Hundreds of residency spots are unfilled every year because the snowflake MDs are too good for them
I doubt it'll be tremendously more difficult for DO grads. The AOA ortho/derm/NS programs are great, but many are community programs and MD grads will still keep them low on their list whilst ranking academic res progs up.
From what I remember about these discussions the merger was constituted because ACGME was considering isolating ACGME fellowship training to those who only trained in ACGME accredited residency programs, therefore, blocking off AOA graduates from many sub-specialty slots.
AOA had to do something to keep this from happening, and so accepted their fate in turning over to ACGME accred.
To keep the post on topic: no, I do not believe the merger will suddenly make applying to competitive ACGME programs more accessible to DO grads.
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How is a competitive residency suppose to gauge the complex anyway? That's a completely different pool of applicants, so looking at percentiles may or may not work.
That is why DOs who are serious about getting into allopathic residencies take the USMLE.
You need to check your facts because you are very misinformed. DOs dont simply take residences that MD "dont want" and discrimination against DOs will only perpetuate if people such as yourself continue to believe in that nonsense that DOs are somehow inferior.
The residencies that US MDs don't want go to foreign-trained MDs, which will become open to DO applicants come merger time. As for other residencies, think who would have better LORs and USMLE scores: someone who went to a medical school which taught students for the USMLE exam and had prominent MD faculty or someone who went to a school which taught for COMLEX and had mostly DO faculty.
They were always open to DOs. Any program that wanted DOs before will still want them now, while any that didn't likely still won't. The only thing that's really going to happen because of the merger is that bad AOA programs will close, MDs will compete for the more competitive AOA residency spots. DOs gain nothing, aside from access to ACGME fellowships and director positions.
Bolded is so true. I understand wanting to be optimistic, but I really don't understand where people get the impression that programs that historically haven't taken DOs, will all of a sudden change their tune post-merger. Those programs could have always taken DOs and have chosen not to.
I'm not saying DOs are unqualified for anything better. But the fact is that they will not be breaking into ROAD and the competitive stuff all of a sudden because the bias is there. Like it or not, agree or not. I'll change my viewpoint if we get stronger data that DOs can perform the same on USMLE and start nabbing better stuff.
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It's not the testing aspect. A DO can score a 260 on step 1 and still have there app set to the side by the IM PD of BWH or NYU-Langone, its the PDs decision to simply slide out DOs or IMGs off the applicant table, no matter what there scores are.
If the merger goes as is and DOs are considered internal applicants (as supposed to being independent applicants when applying through ERAS before the merger) then PERHAPS it may be a more level playing field...but I still stand by and agree with the fact the the PDs who ecxluded DOs before the merger will still exlcude them after the meeger.
I realize that irrational biases are part of human nature, but at some point I'd like to see DOs with high USMLE scores (and otherwise strong applications) not get screened out of top ACGME programs.
I think that day is coming its just not going to be here for the students who are going into medical school right now.
Yes perhaps I should have amended my post so I didn't come off as such a downer. It would be nice to see the old guard dog go as more and more upcoming MD PDs work along side DOs and realize they are one in the same. The timing of which this may happen is completely unknown.
I didn't think you came off as a downer at all. You were simply describing the current state of affairs. If those ACGME programs change their DO policy, it'll likely happen under new PDs anyway.
I think your post is very accurate for the population that frequents SDN but I am looking forward to seeing improvement for DOs over the next decade or so along with seeing DO schools drop some of the more ridiculous manipulations they use (just a premed and even I know cranial needs to die).
Highly unlikely in my opinion I think we will simply see more effort put into defending physicians as a whole from the numerous onslaughts it is experiencing. Eventually MD/DO wont matter the title of physician will be what matters.
I know this has been perpetuated many times, but I'd recommend The DO: osteopathic medicine in America by Norman Gevitz. It'll really help in understanding the historical difference between an MD and a DO.
Also, people in charge of DO programs will not want to lose that power and that is why the degrees will never merge.
You're assuming the bias will only go one way. If the same people are making the decision for each residency then the old DO programs might also maintain a bias against MD applicants especially if its one of the "old guard" types making the decision. Its something that will be interesting because we knew there was a bias against DO at some MD places but we never got the opportunity to see if there was a bias against MD at some DO places.
If even one MD is accepted into a previously DO spot, that's literally infinitely more MDs than were accepted before, and represents an increase in competition. There is no way that zero MDs will match DO spots. There is no incentive for previously MD only programs to take DOs. This situation will most likely, therefore, result in no changes on the MD side but MDs snagging a few of the competitive spots on the DO side. Even if it's not many, that'll still have an end result of things getting tougher for DOs.
Most D.O. schools don't have huge research programs which the most competitive residencies require(They want big name LORs+pubs). You could take a research year, but that is a huge risk. Here are the charting outcomes for 2014; as you will see even MD schools not considered Top 40 NIH research schools are at a disadvantage. I recommend looking at the average number of research articles and posters to see how important research is for certain fields.
There's still discrimination even for MD schools. Also the next decade or so will bring it's own problems with the increase in # of schools and class sizes in both MD and DO schools.
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