Absurd according to whom? You're the arbiter of normal sexuality, identity, and how other people should and do feel inside their own skin?
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Absurd according to whom? You're the arbiter of normal sexuality, identity, and how other people should and do feel inside their own skin?
Is it unreasonable that many of them have problems with those things given the reaction and treatment that most of the rest of society affords these people? I wonder what the rates of anxiety, depression, self-harm etc were for gays 30-50 years ago compared to now. Correlation not causation etc....
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deleted643396
Technically speaking, we are apes. We are in the taxonomic family known as hominids, which is also known as the “great apes.”
I'm not sure whether you're incredibly dull or you're just arguing in bad faith.
I'm ready to listen. Sell me on the idea that the desire for a man to chop off his penis and scrotum, pump himself with estrogens and who knows what else, and affect a feminine voice is not pathological.
The floor is yours.
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deleted643396
I get it. I’m speaking anecdotally. It just seems like something worth investigating. It also brings up the larger question of what is a psychiatric illness? I don’t mean to get philosophical, but couldn’t you argue that most of our psychiatric disorders are just variations of normal?
Fine lol. I identify as a whale.
I don't have to sell you on anything because you've already loaded the premise of your challenge with whatever preconceived notions of "normal" and "abnormal" that you currently possess. Again, I could change your quote to "sell me on the idea of having sex with another man" and that would've been just as preposterous to the average straight guy 70 years ago.
You can paint reassignment surgery in graphic terms, but yet the nature of what a trans person feels is what's really the issue. What you fundamentally misunderstand is that most trans people dont * "desire" * to do all those things that make you feel icky. Just like gay people, who would *choose* to do something that's so socially unacceptable to so many, given what social creatures we are. Once you understand that trans people are born that way and there's no amount of cognitive therapy that can make them feel like they're truly their biological sex, perhaps you'll gain a modicum of understanding.
P.S. As a side note, people get all kinds of wacky surgeries (buttlifts, vaginal rejuvenations) for purely vain, aesthetic reasons, and yet we don't deem them "pathological." Think about the logic of that from a 30,000 ft view.
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deleted643396
I knew a guy in college that was really into whales.
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deleted87051
Bravo! Be true to yourself. Don’t hide your whaleness.
I worked with one surgeon and still work with another surgeon who were closeted gay men in their younger days. One of them was in the military. Both of them married women, had kids, and raised families. Now in their 60’s they are enjoying second more authentic lives as openly gay men each respectively married to other men. Like everything else in life, I’m sure there were many blessings that came from their closeted lives. But I also think that it’s too bad that they couldn’t just be themselves from the start. And I wonder what it was like to be their wives. I work with another younger trauma surgeon in his 40’s, also ex military, who is openly gay and married to a man, and who didn’t have to hide. I consider that progress.
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You immediately veered off-topic into a moral lecture. This has nothing to do with my feeling "icky" (quite a turn of phrase there, btw). And a schizophrenic also feels the dead great-grandmother sitting on a rocking-chair in the corner of the room, singing a folky lullaby to him. And the college student who's just had three beers feels that the girls around him think he's sexy. Feels can be seriously, pathologically incorrect.
Also: you don't know that gender-dysphoric psychiatric patients are "born that way." Sheer conjecture.
How can the real issue be what people feel, but at the same time it’s how they were born? What does it feel like to be a woman? Or a man? Aside from the physical body of being a man and having male genitalia, what does it feel like to be a man? If you’re born into a certain gender identity, then how can people be gender fluid, or have two genders? Or be agendered? Do all biological men/transgendered women feel the same feeling of being a woman? And again, what is that feeling? Isn’t gender a social construct? How can it then be something your born with?
Also, in what other venue of life do we submit to someone’s feelings determining a biological reality? If you feel like an old soul but are 20 years old, does that make you an elderly person? Of course not. Why should a fleeting feeling be thought to determine reality? And yes, it’s a fleeting feeling for the vast majority of individuals, as long as they don’t start screwing with their hormones.
I forget if I saw you argue that transgender-isn’t isn’t anti-science...someone did....What science can you point to support it? I’m not aware of anything but would love to read more if it’s out there.
And I’m sorry, if people want to talk about this whole concept with people that have at least some kinda of ability to make logical impactful decisions (maybe teenagers???) that’s one thing, but anything regarding transitioning little kids (4 or 5 years old or whatever) is just wrong. Period.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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deleted87051
Like conversion therapy for homosexual adolescents?
Since you don’t have a cure, why not just take transgender people at their word for now and accept their experience? Would that harm you in some way? These people are here and trying to get through life. Why would you want to add to their suffering?
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deleted87051
Just because you don’t experience or understand someone else’s gender identity or fluidity does not mean it does not exist. It’s not a fleeting feeling....many people don’t act on it for decades.
In general, it IS a fleeting thing. Which on the surface makes a lot of logical sense. Who among us still feels the same way about anything that we did when we were 10? When we were 5? 3? Numerous studies have been done, and they show that on average, ~80% of children with feelings of being allegedly transgendered change their minds and do not want to transition by the time they are teenagers or adults. However, when the decision is made to mess with puberty blockers and sex hormone therapy, it’s almost unheard of for someone to desist.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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deleted87051
In childhood but not in adulthood.
We don't know from birth, that's true. But if you talk to transgender patients many of them will say they felt like they belonged to the opposite gender from a very early age - 4-5 is not unusual.
Now yes, some of the people who report feeling that way will change their minds at some points (kids are kids after all) but the ones who don't knew from a very early age that suggests they were born that way.
It's why the standard treatment these days with kids is just to support them while they try to figure out who they are.
Puberty blockers don't seem to have long term harms if used for a few years to make sure the teenager is sure they want to fully transition.
I'm going to need you to prove both that 80% and the statement that it's almost unheard of for someone to desist therapy if the kids changes their mind.
I'm fairly certain it is being studied. I'm not sure it's any more common now than any other time, we're just hearing more about it.
Bud, I'm pretty sure you're the one who's veered deeply off into the moralizing and judging section.
When I say "feeling" I am referring specifically to subjective internal experiences. As far as schizophrenics having a hallucination, that is verifiable in as far as we can disprove that there is nothing on the electromagnetic spectrum out of the ordinary sitting in the rocking chair. A drunk guy feels girls think he's sexy? I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say....just ask the girls what they think if you want to settle the matter.
On the other hand, you can't prove to me (with current technology) that when I see the color "red" that you're actually having the exact same "red" experience. There's no way for anyone to say what my 10/10 pain is compared to your 10/10 pain.
Similarly, there's no way for you to know how a trans person really feels, and there's no way for you to know how the billions (trillions?) of genetic, hormonal, and social inputs from the time of conception to adulthood have affected their concept of gender identity. We are, after all, a species where everyone starts as a female in the womb, we all have the neurological hardware capable of identifying as either gender, and mother nature occasionally produces some strange variations and mixing that lead to ambiguity when answering the question of "is it a boy or girl?" There is just all kinds of weird stuff going on in the intrauterine environment- for instance, who would have thought this effect would be a thing?
Bottom line is, your lack of research, failure of your imagination, or your disgust at a medical procedure doesnt automatically turn something into a disease.
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I'm not all that far away from your feelings here, though I've reached completely different conclusions.
I have no trouble conceptualizing homosexuality as normal. Women who like women, I totally that get that (I like them too). Men who like men, eh, feels a little icky to me, but so what. The notion that a man who's not me might want to have sex with another man who's not me is something that intuitively I can understand, even if the mechanics of it make my lizard brain recoil a little.
Gender dysphoria, people who identify as other than their anatomic sex, all of the shades of ambiguity associated with transgender people, I really don't have the same kind of easy "yeah that's normal" response. The lizard brain objects, and the cortex has to work harder to not object.
But it doesn't matter. At all. They don't need my enthusiasm, encouragement, or even understanding. They just need me to not be a dick to them about it. Beyond that, my cortex can suppress my lizard brain well enough to understand that fighting on their side is good for freedom loving society as a whole. So I support them and want to see them succeed.
As much as I don't really understand how these people tick, what I understand even less is why other people get so worked up about it.
So what if it's "normal" or not? If you are going to insist that it's just a bunch of psychopathology, what of it? Even if it is a medical condition, shouldn't their management of that condition be between them and their doctor? Shouldn't we respect their autonomy and not get in the way if they choose to decline "treatment" you think is appropriate? Or if the treatment they do choose to undergo happens to be gender reassignment surgery, hormone therapy, or a wardrobe change?
It's not OK to discriminate against people for any reason, whether the differentiating factor is a hard biological fact like skin color, a completely voluntary choice, a psychiatric condition, or a more specifically quantifiable medical problem.
If someone who's anatomically male tells you he would like to be referred to as she, so what?
There is one area where some elements of the LGBTQ movement are going over the line, however, and you point it out:
If the day comes when using a person's non-preferred pronoun carries legal consequences as hate speech, and the state gets involved, that's a problem.
To this I might add a person who's undergone male-to-female gender reassignment probably shouldn't be permitted to compete as a female in serious sporting events.
I'm not sure I can really come up with any other objectively identifiable problems that any of this presents to me, as a not-LGBTQ bystander.
"On average 80% of children change their minds and do not continue into adulthood as transgender."
Evidence obtained from the children’s Gender Identity Clinic in the UK (Tavistock clinic) is that 40% of the children referred to them progress onto puberty blockers. This correlates well with the results from the Dutch study. Alarmingly however, almost all children who start puberty blockers then go onto cross-sex hormones suggesting that desistance after medication begins is very rare. This may of course reflect the increased certainty of the persisters at this stage. Or it may be that it is simply too difficult to consider or admit to a change of mind.
Do children grow out of gender dysphoria? - Transgender Trend
Do children change their minds and grow out of opposite-sex identification? Looking at the evidence and predictors for persistence and desistance.
www.transgendertrend.com
"The exact number varies by study, but roughly 60–90% of trans- kids turn out no longer to be trans by adulthood."
<i>Do trans- kids stay trans- when they grow up?</i>
Following the closure of the CAMH Gender Identity Clinic for children, I have been receiving requests for what the science says. Do kids g...
And I'll retort with, you're gonna need to prove that puberty blockers don't seem to have long term affects when used in this fashion. Its not FDA approved (which I know isn't the end all be all by any stretch...) and its been studied with regards to delaying precocious puberty, but from what I've read, its not known what the long term effects are in regards to halting normal puberty. If you got evidence for the safety of this practice, I'd love to see it.
Is that the standard of treatment, or is it to encourage social transitioning at a very early age? Or is social transitioning your definition of support? Do you think social transitioning a 3 or 4 year old will have an impact on what might otherwise normally occur?
You let them dress/identify however they want and support them while doing it.
Correct, a feeling is just that, a feeling, a subjective internal experience, not an objective reality.
How can you possibly say that we all start as female in the womb? By what standard do you determine that? Would today's transgender activists agree with you? I'd venture a strong guess that they would not.
As far as long-term Lupron, one of SDNs endocrinologists weighed in on the subject in a similar thread awhile back."On average 80% of children change their minds and do not continue into adulthood as transgender."
Evidence obtained from the children’s Gender Identity Clinic in the UK (Tavistock clinic) is that 40% of the children referred to them progress onto puberty blockers. This correlates well with the results from the Dutch study. Alarmingly however, almost all children who start puberty blockers then go onto cross-sex hormones suggesting that desistance after medication begins is very rare. This may of course reflect the increased certainty of the persisters at this stage. Or it may be that it is simply too difficult to consider or admit to a change of mind.
Do children grow out of gender dysphoria? - Transgender Trend
Do children change their minds and grow out of opposite-sex identification? Looking at the evidence and predictors for persistence and desistance.
"The exact number varies by study, but roughly 60–90% of trans- kids turn out no longer to be trans by adulthood."
<i>Do trans- kids stay trans- when they grow up?</i>
Following the closure of the CAMH Gender Identity Clinic for children, I have been receiving requests for what the science says. Do kids g...www.sexologytoday.org
And I'll retort with, you're gonna need to prove that puberty blockers don't seem to have long term affects when used in this fashion. Its not FDA approved (which I know isn't the end all be all by any stretch...) and its been studied with regards to delaying precocious puberty, but from what I've read, its not known what the long term effects are in regards to halting normal puberty. If you got evidence for the safety of this practice, I'd love to see it.
We've been using Lupron to delay puberty for quite some time so its not like this is a new use, its just a new reason for that same use.
As for your 2 links the second is blocked by my hospital's security so I'll address the first one.
First one: However 80 (64%) of children had either desisted (52) or were no longer traceable (28)
So its only 64% if we include the study participants that were lost to follow up. And just over a third persisted. That's also just a single study.
Its not surprising that very few stop Lupron and go through puberty in their genetic sex. But its an option
That said, that website only presents 1 source and the website itself is very clearly biased.
Let's look at a whole bunch of decent sources instead: What does the scholarly research say about the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being? | What We Know
This is also an interesting article: Young Trans Children Know Who They Are
So any 3 or 4 year old that wants to go by a different name or wants to play dress up should be encouraged to undergo a full social transition? Kids of that age do not have any kind of capacity to make a rational decision about what they want to be, or what they want their gender identity to be. I'm sorry, they don't. They can't. Do you have kids? What exactly does a young child have to do to warrant a full social transition? Don't you think its possibly to negatively affect a child with an unnecessary transition?
Lets say we had some definitive biological test that could determine if one was born into the wrong gender of body. You could do that test, find the results and then proceed to treat the kid accordingly. And in this hypothetical, if a kid tested positive for being transgender, you would say that social transition would probably have a positive outcome. Now if the kid tested negative, you would avoid social transitioning. I think it'd be quite fair to argue that socially transitioning a 3 or 4 year old that was objectively not transgender would have negative effects on their psychiatric well being, yeah? Now there's no objective test to determine who is truly transgender, and therefore, don't you think there's risk in social transitioning every little kid who thinks for a bit they are something they're not?
Again, do you have children?
Two daughters, and if they said that felt like a boy and wanted to dress in boy clothes I'd let them.
I wouldn't go changing their birth certificates just yet, but if instead of Suzy one of my daughters wanted to be called Frank that's what we'd do.
Not that whether or not I have children should matter for this discussion.
Also not sure exactly what negative effects are going to happen if a 6 year old decides to dress as the opposite gender and be called by a different name.
IF? Uhhhhh, better look around a bit closer. That day is already here my friend.
New NYC Laws Prohibit Discrimination Against Transgender Community
New York City has implemented new laws regulating discrimination on the basis of gender identity, but they don't mean all offenders will be fined $250,000.
www.snopes.com
A tribunal fined this activist $55,000 for calling a man a biological male - LifeSite
Bill Whatcott called a biological male (who identifies as a female) a 'biological male.' That was his crime.
But don't worry, you're safe in NY if you misgender someone accidentally, but if its intentional, you are subject to fines. In other words, if you choose not to be compelled into validating someone elses view of reality, you can be fined, potentially up to $250k.
And listen, this is a completely different animal than the homosexual one. I don't care what consenting adults do in private. Fine. There are WAY more societal implications of being forced to alter our view of reality, with nothing more to go off of than someone's individual feelings. You have freedom of speech being affected, you have the impact on the sporting world (like I asked the other poster, do you have children? Do you have daughters who may be forced to compete against biological males one day?), you have the whole bathroom situation, and you have the general shift in paradigm that a small minority of the world is trying to compel everyone else to acknowledge alternate views of reality and biology that are opposed to everything we know to be true, but you're labeled a bigot or transphobe if you disagree with someones feelings. Not to mention, many children are having their lives unreversibly altered by parental interference and parental desires. Even if you think social transitioning is right, there's no way that you can be certain that little kids are capable of making these life altering decision, and you have to allow that there are some fraction of kids that are being transitioned that shouldn't be. Suicide rates are ASTRONOMICAL for transgender teens and adults. You dont think that leading someone down a path from a VERY EARLY age that leads to almost a coin flip that they'll commit suicide isn't a concern? Like I said, if you're gay, fine. I don't agree morally, but you do you. But when these practices with transgender therapy create real detriment to children, it should involve anyone with a conscience.
Are any of those things concern for you?
So when do you make that decision? If they tell you one time would you change their name, change there clothes, and insist everyone at school and in social situations treat them as a boy? How much proof does a kindergartner have to give you to start transitioning? What if they tell one parent they want to be a boy and one parent they want to be a girl? What do you do then?Have you read about this case? What are your thoughts?
Texas Father Forced to Put His Child Through Gender Transition Therapy After Losing Custody Battle to Ex-Wife
Photo by Klesta via Flickr. Jeffrey Younger, a father in Dallas, Texas, lost his court battle for cu
www.redstate.com
Watch the above video and tell me you believe that this kids path in life was soley determined by HIS desire to be a girl, and not his mothers.
He has OBVIOUSLY been manipulated (to some degree) by his mother, and is now being sent down a path that increases his risk of suicide to about 40%. This is so sad.
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So when do you make that decision? If they tell you one time would you change their name, change there clothes, and insist everyone at school and in social situations treat them as a boy? How much proof does a kindergartner have to give you to start transitioning? What if they tell one parent they want to be a boy and one parent they want to be a girl? What do you do then?Have you read about this case? What are your thoughts?
Texas Father Forced to Put His Child Through Gender Transition Therapy After Losing Custody Battle to Ex-Wife
Photo by Klesta via Flickr. Jeffrey Younger, a father in Dallas, Texas, lost his court battle for cu
Watch the above video and tell me you believe that this kids path in life was soley determined by HIS desire to be a girl, and not his mothers.
He has OBVIOUSLY been manipulated (to some degree) by his mother, and is now being sent down a path that increases his risk of suicide to about 40%. This is so sad.
Lots to unpack here.
First, the details of the kid in Texas are troubling because the father is a known liar so anything he says must be taken with a huge grain of salt: http://search.txcourts.gov/SearchMe...&MediaID=70a215b2-db32-46e3-9d77-25f423e0dba0
Its entirely possible that the kid is consistent and the dad is full of ****. That's why you have the kid evaluated by a neutral third party like the parents did. Here's a site that lists the actual facts of the case: Here are the important details of the James Younger verdict (FULL RULING)
Second, like anything else you use your judgment. Of course you don't make major changes if a kid says it once. But if its a persistent thing over weeks/months then you consider it. Take them in to see peds psychiatry.
Third, your last point shows a marked lack of critical thinking. Do you honestly think that the 40% suicide rate is because parents push kids to transition and not because of the internal turmoil of honestly believing that your body is wrong? Interestingly, the suicide attempt rate goes down significantly after transitioning.
Transgender women show high rates of sex-change regret
One doctor has performed seven reversal surgeries on transgender women in the past five years.
www.newsweek.com
It turns out that chopping off one's own genitals is not a psychologically-benign procedure. Who'd have thought it, eh?
Not to mention that atrociously unethical practice of performing these procedures on minors. Any physician who performs those should lose his/her licenses.
Oh don't go...I loved everything you've put down.
I love the animal farm references - one of my all-time favorites.
But I agree - this thread needs to die. seriously...how do we kill it?
Question for you - did you watch Edward Snowden's interview on Joe Rogan? thoughts? (trying to hijack here...)
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deleted171991
No, I didn't. Is it good?
And thank you, but this thread/forum is truly a royal waste of time. 🙂
As much as I can't stand postmodernism, I would hate to hurt some feelings here. It's so easy to be misunderstood.
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deleted171991
I didn't consider him a traitor either. I think we need more protection for whistleblowers like him. I am sure he is a highly intelligent and patriotic human being. I am just a cynical person who believes less and less in the effect of a butterfly flapping its wings on the global weather. We are insignificant. 😉
Here are the important details of the James Younger verdict (FULL RULING)
Did you watch the video? You have a 3 year old telling his Dad that "mom tells me I'm a girl." Whether or not the dad lied to the mom about his military training etc is kind of irrelevant.
Is it a major change to dress a 3 year old up like a girl all the time, call him Luna, and insist that all his peers and teachers treat hims as a girl? I'm sorry, ped psych involved or not, I don't know how anyone can take anything a 3 year old says seriously enough to significantly alter this path of his life.
I'm saying that its undeniable that transgenders commit suicide at an insane rate (almost like there's something psychologically wrong there....?), and if, like this mother, you support/push/help/whatever you want to call it, this child down the path of transitioning, we know that there's a 40-50% chance of suicide. And, no, you are incorrect about the suicide rate going down significantly after transition. That's just false. Sorry.
"The most thorough follow-up of sex-reassigned people—extending over 30 years and conducted in Sweden, where the culture is strongly supportive of the transgendered—documents their lifelong mental unrest. Ten to 15 years after surgical reassignment, the suicide rate of those who had undergone sex-reassignment surgery rose to 20 times that of comparable peers.
McHugh points to the reality that because sex change is physically impossible, it frequently does not provide the long-term wholeness and happiness that people seek.
Indeed, the best scientific research supports McHugh’s caution and concern.
Here’s how The Guardian summarized the results of a review of “more than 100 follow-up studies of post-operative transsexuals” by Birmingham University’s Aggressive Research Intelligence Facility:
“There is huge uncertainty over whether changing someone’s sex is a good or a bad thing,” said Chris Hyde, the director of the facility. Even if doctors are careful to perform these procedures only on “appropriate patients,” Hyde continued, “there’s still a large number of people who have the surgery but remain traumatized—often to the point of committing suicide.”
Of particular concern are the people these studies “lost track of.” As The Guardian noted, “the results of many gender reassignment studies are unsound because researchers lost track of more than half of the participants.” Indeed, “Dr. Hyde said the high drop-out rate could reflect high levels of dissatisfaction or even suicide among post-operative transsexuals.”
Hyde concluded: “The bottom line is that although it’s clear that some people do well with gender reassignment surgery, the available research does little to reassure about how many patients do badly and, if so, how badly.”
The facility conducted its review back in 2004, so perhaps things have changed in the past decade?
Not so. In 2014, a new review of the scientific literature was done by Hayes, Inc., a research and consulting firm that evaluates the safety and health outcomes of medical technologies. Hayes found that the evidence on long-term results of sex reassignment was too sparse to support meaningful conclusions and gave these studies its lowest rating for quality:
The Obama administration came to similar conclusions. In 2016, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services revisited the question of whether sex reassignment surgery would have to be covered by Medicare plans. Despite receiving a request that its coverage be mandated, it refused, on the ground that we lack evidence that it benefits patients.
Here’s how the June 2016 “Proposed Decision Memo for Gender Dysphoria and Gender Reassignment Surgery” put it:
The final August 2016 memo was even more blunt. It pointed out:
That “lost to follow-up,” remember, could be pointing to people who committed suicide.
And when it comes to the best studies, there is no evidence of “clinically significant changes” after sex reassignment:
In a discussion of the largest and most robust study—the study from Sweden that McHugh mentioned in the quote above—the Obama Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services pointed out the 19-times-greater likelihood for death by suicide, and a host of other poor outcomes:
Sex Reassignment Doesn’t Work. Here Is the Evidence.
Sex “reassignment” doesn’t work. It’s impossible to “reassign” someone’s sex physically, and attempting to do so doesn’t produce good outcomes psychosocially.
www.heritage.org
10 million views in less than a week - that's impressive.
this was on the comment section of the video - great line.
"Who goes to jail when you break the law? You do.
Who goes to jail when you catch the government breaking the law? Still you."
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Why do we need to kill it? Its an optional thread for people to discuss Trump/politics/current culture.
How do you guys feel about the following statement? Honestly....
“From a medical perspective, the appropriate determinant of sex is gender identity...It is counter to medical science to use chromosomes, hormones, internal reproductive organs, external genitalia, or secondary sex characteristics to override gender identity for purposes of classifying someone as male or female."
“From a medical perspective, the appropriate determinant of sex is gender identity...It is counter to medical science to use chromosomes, hormones, internal reproductive organs, external genitalia, or secondary sex characteristics to override gender identity for purposes of classifying someone as male or female."
Meh, that's a little hysterical. The incidents you mention are outliers. They're newsworthy precisely because they're aberrations from the norm. The pendulum will swing back a bit.
I'm not genuinely worried that I'll ever be arrested, sued, fined, imprisoned, or otherwise sanctioned by the state because I use the wrong pronoun. You shouldn't be either.
In my post, I specifically mentioned the issue with fairly segregating athletes into male and female categories. That's a problem that will work out fine.
But otherwise ... no, not really. I'm not concerned.
"The whole bathroom situation" is one of the most ridiculous bits of hyperventilating hysteria that has crapped itself into mainstream political discussion in the last decade. It's just such a non-issue.
You say "many children are having their lives unreversibly [sic] altered by parental interference and parental desires" ... oh my god, stop the presses. You mean bad parenting can have negative impacts on their kids?!? Whoa. Let me catch my breath. Moms choose not to vaccinate their kids. Dads choose to commit crimes and go to jail and leave their kids fatherless. Moms don't make their kids brush their teeth. Dads yell at their kids and tell them they're stupid. Moms teach their kids to be racist. Dads teach their kids to hate, pity, be contemptuous of, or "not agree morally" with gay people.
Is there an element of bad parenting involved with some of these younger transgender kids? Probably. Do we need to get the state involved? Well, maybe for the antivax *****s - there's a public health concern there. But the rest of it? The state can't make bad parents good parents.
Do you think it might be possible that one of the reasons for high suicide rates among transgender people is the way people like you treat them and speak of them?
And here we go with the real issue. You "don't agree morally" with gayness. You don't agree with it, but you've courageously conceded that fight as a losing one. You still speak ill of gay persons' moral fiber and strength of character, but you've moved your active resistance to a different line on the battlefield. You also don't agree morally with trans people, but you think they need to be stopped. For a whole long list of contrived reasons.
I don't agree with people like you, who think you've got some business telling other people what they should or should not, or can or cannot, do with their bodies.
They're not hurting you. They're not tearing the delicate fabric of society that keeps you alive and breathing - they're really not. You're going to be fine. If you see one in the "wrong" bathroom with you, you can still go pee in the stall. It's OK. You don't need to protect them from themselves, and you damn sure don't need to protect the rest of us from them.
Let them be free - and yes, some will use that freedom to mess up their lives. That's what free people do ... the dirty little secret of freedom is that you're on your own. Don't talk down to them. Don't impugn their morals. Don't be a dick to them.
Why is that so hard for you?
You seem pretty ho-hum about peoples rights of free speech being interfered with. But if you want to just put your head in the sand and say it'll never affect you, fine I guess. But there are plenty of people who don't want to be forced to comply with an alternative reality, however, as I showed you, there are cases of people being fined and laws on the books that will fine you for intentionally not going along with someone else's reality.
And you say that sports problem will "work out fine"? Ok, that seems to be founded in little fact, as the increase of boys/men dominating girls/women in sports competition has increased dramatically in the last 10 years, but cause PGG says it will be fine, I'll stop worrying.
And finally, your assertion is that the real problem with my argument against the efficacy and safety and biological rationale for transitioning children is the fact that I don't agree morally with homosexuality? LOL. That's, well, I don't really know what that is...
Do you disagree morally with anyone in this world? I'm sure you do. I think most everyone in the world would disagree with the morality of some other person/group of people in this wold on one issue or another. And in your mind that invalidates their opinion on other topics? That's pretty poor logic man.
What are your thoughts on a person with BIID who wants a doctor to amputate their leg? Will the doctor comply because the person identifies as an amputee? How then is that different from a person who wants a mastectomy cause they identify as a man? You may scoff, but thats a valid question. How do these two patients differ? How is one a pyschiatric disorder and the other trying to be pushed as just another normal biological state?
And you say that sports problem will "work out fine"? Ok, that seems to be founded in little fact, as the increase of boys/men dominating girls/women in sports competition has increased dramatically in the last 10 years, but cause PGG says it will be fine, I'll stop worrying.
And finally, your assertion is that the real problem with my argument against the efficacy and safety and biological rationale for transitioning children is the fact that I don't agree morally with homosexuality? LOL. That's, well, I don't really know what that is...
Do you disagree morally with anyone in this world? I'm sure you do. I think most everyone in the world would disagree with the morality of some other person/group of people in this wold on one issue or another. And in your mind that invalidates their opinion on other topics? That's pretty poor logic man.
What are your thoughts on a person with BIID who wants a doctor to amputate their leg? Will the doctor comply because the person identifies as an amputee? How then is that different from a person who wants a mastectomy cause they identify as a man? You may scoff, but thats a valid question. How do these two patients differ? How is one a pyschiatric disorder and the other trying to be pushed as just another normal biological state?
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deleted171991
I defer to true experts (not the pseudoscientists which change DSM based on economic or political interests), but, I don't like at all the idea of society or the state playing police with parents, to "protect" a child. Also, unless somebody or something convinces me otherwise in the future, I doubt that a child has any idea of his/her sexuality until puberty. Just because s/he likes certain toys or clothes or names,it's not gender dysphoria. I strongly doubt that it can exist before puberty, simply because kids don't make a difference between boys and girls, except what they are taught socially. The other sex is just an interesting animal with different genitals.
Going from here, I would personally sue any "educator" who tries to influence my child either way, and make sure s/he loses his/her license to destroy more families. Society needs to STOP protecting children from their parents. A large majority of parents love their children much more than any stranger would, so it's absolutely disgusting to see parents accused of various "offenses" for not conforming with the "four feet good, two feet bad" societal norms. I've just read recently about a mother who was cited for child endangerment for leaving her 12 year-old daughter, with a cellphone, in her car, for 10 minutes while she stopped buying some bread. I mean it's downright idiotic. And then society complains that we get immature whiny 18 year-olds.
So I am strongly against society interfering with how parents raise their "transgender" children, until we get more DATA, not just PC theories.
So if all those forms of bad parenting exist, you're stance is to just shrug and say 'parents suck'?
Suicide rates for transgenders are high all over the world, even in the most tolerant of countries. And I've never treated a transgender person any differently than anyone else. Just because you disagree with me morally, do I accuse you of treating Christians poorly? I disagree with the morality of sex outside of marriage too. Do you think I treat 90% of society poorly cause I don’t share their morals? Get off your high horse and don't assume how other people treat people. Just because you want to discuss issues on an internet forum doesn't mean you treat people with different beliefs/values/whatever poorly in real life.
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I sometimes forget that you never went to medical school
"All human individuals—whether they have an XX, an XY, or an atypical sex chromosome combination—begin development from the same starting point. During early development the gonads of the fetus remain undifferentiated; that is, all fetal genitalia are the same and are phenotypically female. After approximately 6 to 7 weeks of gestation, however, the expression of a gene on the Y chromosome induces changes that result in the development of the testes. Thus, this gene is singularly important in inducing testis development. The production of testosterone at about 9 weeks of gestation results in the development of the reproductive tract and the masculinization (the normal development of male sex characteristics) of the brain and genitalia. In contrast to the role of the fetal testis in differentiation of a male genital tract and external genitalia in utero, fetal ovarian secretions are not required for female sex differentiation. As these details point out, the basic differences between the sexes begin in the womb, and this chapter examines how sex differences develop and change across the lifetime. The committee examined both normal and abnormal routes of development that lead individuals to become males and females and the changes during childhood, reproductive adulthood, and the later stages of life."
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And just FYI, that quote about the true determinants of sex is from Dr. Deanna Adkins, professor at Duke University School of Medicine and the director of the Duke Center for Child and Adolescent Gender Care. So crazy to me that people at the forefront of this whole movement are so disillusioned and distanced from basic scientific facts.
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Thank you for such a detailed and well documented post on the subject. Its clear that the politics are way ahead of the science with respect to to the trans population. How we have attempted to help them over the past 40 yrs has not altered the suicide rate. We need better science and less politics, especially with respect to children who express magical thinking up to the pre teen years. Should we allow them to make such serious decisions? We dont let them get breast augments before puberty, why allow puberty blockers? Our understanding of the topic is still woefully lackingHere are the important details of the James Younger verdict (FULL RULING)
Did you watch the video? You have a 3 year old telling his Dad that "mom tells me I'm a girl." Whether or not the dad lied to the mom about his military training etc is kind of irrelevant.
Is it a major change to dress a 3 year old up like a girl all the time, call him Luna, and insist that all his peers and teachers treat hims as a girl? I'm sorry, ped psych involved or not, I don't know how anyone can take anything a 3 year old says seriously enough to significantly alter this path of his life.
I'm saying that its undeniable that transgenders commit suicide at an insane rate (almost like there's something psychologically wrong there....?), and if, like this mother, you support/push/help/whatever you want to call it, this child down the path of transitioning, we know that there's a 40-50% chance of suicide. And, no, you are incorrect about the suicide rate going down significantly after transition. That's just false. Sorry.
"The most thorough follow-up of sex-reassigned people—extending over 30 years and conducted in Sweden, where the culture is strongly supportive of the transgendered—documents their lifelong mental unrest. Ten to 15 years after surgical reassignment, the suicide rate of those who had undergone sex-reassignment surgery rose to 20 times that of comparable peers.
McHugh points to the reality that because sex change is physically impossible, it frequently does not provide the long-term wholeness and happiness that people seek.
Indeed, the best scientific research supports McHugh’s caution and concern.
Here’s how The Guardian summarized the results of a review of “more than 100 follow-up studies of post-operative transsexuals” by Birmingham University’s Aggressive Research Intelligence Facility:
“There is huge uncertainty over whether changing someone’s sex is a good or a bad thing,” said Chris Hyde, the director of the facility. Even if doctors are careful to perform these procedures only on “appropriate patients,” Hyde continued, “there’s still a large number of people who have the surgery but remain traumatized—often to the point of committing suicide.”
Of particular concern are the people these studies “lost track of.” As The Guardian noted, “the results of many gender reassignment studies are unsound because researchers lost track of more than half of the participants.” Indeed, “Dr. Hyde said the high drop-out rate could reflect high levels of dissatisfaction or even suicide among post-operative transsexuals.”
Hyde concluded: “The bottom line is that although it’s clear that some people do well with gender reassignment surgery, the available research does little to reassure about how many patients do badly and, if so, how badly.”
The facility conducted its review back in 2004, so perhaps things have changed in the past decade?
Not so. In 2014, a new review of the scientific literature was done by Hayes, Inc., a research and consulting firm that evaluates the safety and health outcomes of medical technologies. Hayes found that the evidence on long-term results of sex reassignment was too sparse to support meaningful conclusions and gave these studies its lowest rating for quality:
The Obama administration came to similar conclusions. In 2016, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services revisited the question of whether sex reassignment surgery would have to be covered by Medicare plans. Despite receiving a request that its coverage be mandated, it refused, on the ground that we lack evidence that it benefits patients.
Here’s how the June 2016 “Proposed Decision Memo for Gender Dysphoria and Gender Reassignment Surgery” put it:
The final August 2016 memo was even more blunt. It pointed out:
That “lost to follow-up,” remember, could be pointing to people who committed suicide.
And when it comes to the best studies, there is no evidence of “clinically significant changes” after sex reassignment:
In a discussion of the largest and most robust study—the study from Sweden that McHugh mentioned in the quote above—the Obama Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services pointed out the 19-times-greater likelihood for death by suicide, and a host of other poor outcomes:
Sex Reassignment Doesn’t Work. Here Is the Evidence.
Sex “reassignment” doesn’t work. It’s impossible to “reassign” someone’s sex physically, and attempting to do so doesn’t produce good outcomes psychosocially.
I sometimes forget that you lack comprehension skills.
I'm obviously aware of what you stated...
My point was that you're gonna use genetics, chromosomes, hormones, and human anatomy to say we all start out female. This flies in the face of exactly what the transgender people say is irrelevant to the determination of male or female sex.
You can’t be factually consistent if you believe what you posted AND you believe that your feelings determine your biology.
But nice try with the smugness...
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