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Will Trump win again???
Started by Planktonmd
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DrGasPasser
Full Member
Actually, I voted for the pothead in 2016. I haven’t decided who I’ll vote for in 2020.
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deleted171991
If they are good enough to honorably defend your a$$, they are good enough to become citizens. Better than many of the natives who don't do $h!t for the country in an entire lifetime (e.g. because they have gotten "heel spurs" WHILE IN MILITARY SCHOOL).
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deleted643396
Those billionaires you admire so much have benefitted from this arrangement more than consumers. Those very same billionaires that we are afraid to raise taxes on because they might leave the very country that allowed them to become billionaires in the first place.
Consumers haven’t really benefitted from this, in my opinion. We’ve just been trained to consume more than is necessary.
Well I enjoyed the two free paragraphs.
You really can fool some of the people, all of the time
Politicians pay a surprisingly small price for dishonestywww.economist.com
Someone who enters illegally might earn citizenship with military service, but that service does not buy him the status of being "better than" citizens who haven't joined the military.
Compromise: slash immigration rates to a certain level (e.g., 100,000/year) and have these subgroups of illegal aliens count toward the annual quota as they're naturalized.
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deleted171991
Sorry. I was able to read the whole thing initially.
DrGasPasser
Full Member
The vast majority of greencard veterans who get deported, about 250 over the past 6 years, do so because of felonies committed after their service. Many are violent drug and gang offenders. A scary number come from MS-13, Mexican and Columbian cartels and joined our military to develop certain skill sets for the criminal underworld. Take this guy as an example that is part of the media sob story:
Notice that the part about his felony convictions including assault with a deadly weapon, false imprisonment, narcotics possession, and corporal injury to a spouse were buried at the end of the story.
Part of the agreement for citizenship after service is that the vet actually obey our laws while applying. Show me the specific case of a deported vet who didn’t do some heinous **** and then we can discuss the merits of the law.
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deleted171991
I mostly agree with what you say, but you also have to keep this in mind:
Meaning we owe this guy. Maybe not a citizenship (if he's a felon), but a better life than El Salvador.
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deleted87051
Meh, with the exception of anchor babies and children of other immigrants, it’s just pure luck where people happen to be born. I’d say on average, an immigrant soldier is “better than” an average native born citizen. Whether the United States has an immigration problem at all is a matter of debate.
Immigrant =/= illegal alien.
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deleted87051
I understand. No need to conflate the two. Still there are some immigrants who come over legally, overstay their visas, and transiently become illegal while trying to establish legal permanent residence. Anyway in my opinion both legal and illegal immigration are not near the top of our list of major problems. Illegal immigration in particular is a red herring for politicians who don’t have the will to tackle real problems like corporate welfare and climate change.
Illegal immigration to the United States - Wikipedia
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DrGasPasser
Full Member
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deleted171991
I don't know, but more than just showing him the door. This is a hero with brain injury who's committed crimes (many of the veterans with TBI and/or PTSD do). I really don't know the right answer, because I don't know the man..
Honestly, I think the best compromise to all the illegal immigrant stuff would be to just shut down the illegal crossings, aka build the wall, increase patrol, increase tech surveillance, moat with alligators, whatever, just shut it down. And then ‘cut our losses’ so to speak with people currently in the US illegally. Let em be citizens. It’s way too impractical, way too difficult, and way to “messy” to get rid of people that have been here for 5, 10, or 20 years. Or if half a family is legal and half is illegal. Or if they have served in the military. HOWEVER, if one of these illegal/now non-illegals commits a felony, deport em.
How’s that for a fair compromise?
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How’s that for a fair compromise?
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DrGasPasser
Full Member
Sounds good. Get back to me once you’ve shut down that border.
DrGasPasser
Full Member
It’s perfectly understandable that you would not have all the right answers on this issue unless you were a vet or had some background in LE. On the other hand, maybe it’s best not to come out of the gates swinging with assumptions as to who is cruel, ungrateful, or protecting my a$$ when you don’t have a working knowledge of the subject matter. 😉
DrGasPasser
Full Member
Yes, yes - I’m sure that Nancy will get right on those border security appropriations for tanks, moats, and alligators with lazer beams. 🙄
Lol. Maybe not the laser beams, but gators fo’ sho’
But in all seriousness, do you think the left might trade support for shutting down the border completely (except legal immigration of course) for blanket amnesty? I think it’s an interesting question. And with the latest cartel horror story, how can anyone say that we don’t wanna lock things down at the border. I just don’t get it. And I’d gladly just start with a clean slate if it meant securing the border.
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“Shutting down” the border actually makes the illegal immigration issue worse (at least for Mexicans).
Make it easy for them to come and go - and they go back home to live, and come here to work. Make that easy and it fixes a lot of things.
You’re gonna have to expound on that more...
How does shutting down illegal immigration make it worse? What is fixed by making it easy for people to come and go? And what does ‘come and go’ even mean? Who wants to come and go? Like cross the border to work for a one day? If that’s what you’re referring to, you’re talking about a small number of immigrants. Most want to come permanently, and most don’t want to stay by the border.
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I understand. No need to conflate the two. Still there are some immigrants who come over legally, overstay their visas, and transiently become illegal while trying to establish legal permanent residence. Anyway in my opinion both legal and illegal immigration are not near the top of our list of major problems. Illegal immigration in particular is a red herring for politicians who don’t have the will to tackle real problems like corporate welfare and climate change.
Illegal immigration to the United States - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
Illegal aliens are a massive problem for a number of reasons. They price low-skilled Americans out of the labor market, drain healthcare dollars, consume welfare resources that would otherwise be going to American citizens, and artificially skew politics leftward.
It’s amazing how the media will stop at nothing to protect the partisan hack whistleblower that was obviously working with Schiff and other dems to “get” Trump from the start. And yet when you have clear evidence against Epstein, apparently also involving Clinton, they do everything they can to quash it (during the 2016 election....wonder why?). And then the alleged ‘whistleblower’ who released the Amy Robach video, gets ganged up on by the two media giants and canned. Sad.
One did the ‘worst thing ever’, trying to investigate foreign corruption (which was what they did with the Russian hoax for years on end), the other was trying to expose one of the worst pedophiles in history and his major connections (*cough* Clinton *cough*).
Let’s see....who should we focus on?....who should we silence?....
Answer: Orange man bad [emoji35]
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Won't make a bit of difference until you start sending some employers of illegals to jail
Trump got himself lol. You're just another koolaid drinker giving him a free pass
Well, if you granted the people here amnesty, and then truly shut down the border to illegal crossings, it actually would make the point of people employing illegals moot.
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And they pay billions in taxes. And do jobs even legals won't do
How much do undocumented immigrants pay in taxes?
"Undocumented immigrants pay $12 billion of taxes every single year."
www.politifact.com
So what part of Trumps phone transcript shows evidence of an illegal quid pro quo?
I’ll wait....
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Let's see the secured server, considering the highly unusual behavior of putting the transcript there to begin with.
Then again, he could shoot someone on 5th Ave and not lose your vote.
A computer server haunted Clinton in 2016. Now it may be Trump's turn
As a presidential candidate, Donald Trump repeatedly attacked his Democratic adversary Hillary Clinton in 2016 over her use of a private computer server for official emails when she was U.S. secretary of state.
Official Reveals Trump’s ‘Exact Call’ With Zelensky Was Edited Down
The “rough transcript” is a cover-up, Vindman testifies to Congress.
nymag.com
Either way the stuff that is out is more than enough to get him despite his attempts to cover up and modify evidence of his crimes
Impeachment transcripts reveal a consistent, damaging narrative for Trump
The witness testimonies released so far are all aligned, offering Democrats a powerful political weapon in public hearings next week.
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deleted87051
I posted an article with references that dispute all of your claims. I live in a border “sanctuary city” with more illegal immigrants than most parts of the country and they’re not causing problems here. It’s just made up BS to rile up middle America.
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deleted171991
Same with you about the individual being a hardened criminal, when he got a serious TBI in the service of the country (i.e. he's not neurologically intact), or that ANY vet that breaks the law should be deported (one could deport a green card holder even for a petty theft). 😉
I am law-abiding citizen who's not a fan of illegal anything, but one has to walk a mile in these people's shoes and respect their service and sacrifice. These people are coming back from war, many of them with at least PTSD and troubles re-integrating in regular society. I am not talking about gang members; those are career criminals to me.
America is so hated all around the world that, if you take an ex-military and send him back to his "sh-thole" country, it can be a death sentence (especially if he hasn't lived there as an adult and/or has no family/friends there). You wouldn't go to El Salvador even as a tourist. So, yeah, it IS a sob story (a TBI vet who beat up his spouse to the level of 8 years in prison, among others).
Since the American military does not recruit criminals, the only logical conclusion is that his experience in the military turned him into one. How sad is that? I do think the (ex-)military are special people, with special circumstances. We should all remember how much we owe these people.
Some more food for thought:
'I refuse to die in here': the marine who survived two tours and is now fighting deportation
In his 21 months of detention, Jose Segovia Benitez says he’s been denied critical treatment for his PTSD and heart condition
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I voted for him too. Would have been nice to see the sane non-anarchist wing of the Libertarian party get some national traction. He would have been an excellent president.
The wall is a stupid idea because it won't work. Can't work. The vast, vast majority of persons here illegally did not sneak across the border with some shifty-eyed coyote like you see on TV. They came through ordinary ports of entry, and overstayed.
It would be expensive to build, expensive to maintain. The government doesn't even own the land needed to build it, and couldn't get it without eminent domain seizures. Once upon a time small-government conservatives objected to that kind of thing, but let's be honest, that unicorn is extinct (if it ever really existed).
A wall is a stupid, simplistic, idiotic idea that can't survive even 20 seconds of rational thought by a thinking human.
The answer is blindingly simple. Haul the employers of illegal labor into court and CRUSH them with the weight of the full, unsympathetic, unmerciful law.
We don't need to do anything at all about the illegal immigrants. When the illegal work dries up, they'll stop coming.
Prosecute everyone who pays for illegal labor. Even if the upstanding suburban Purple Heart veteran pillar of the community, who on the way home from volunteering at the soup kitchen, hires some guys from the Home Depot parking lot to build a deck for cash. **** that guy. How about a fine of 3x the assessed value of the deck and 80 hours of community service picking up trash at the side of the road?
Then, as actual documented labor shortages appear, start up a guest worker program so immigrants can come to work and stay legally, paying taxes, and enjoying basic workplace protections and legal recourse to report inhumane working conditions. Give immigrants with documented legal work history and clean criminal records priority for citizenship.
This is so easy to solve.
But the Republicans score votes by demonizing these people, and the Democrats want unrestricted immigration because the demographic shifts favor their votes.
So it won't be solved.
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deleted171991
I come from a country with an ethnic minority living in a certain area, while the rest of the country has few of them. Guess who are the most vocal xenophobes in the country? The people who have not met one minority person in their lives, not the ones living among them.
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deleted643396
So will I have to professionally vet the teenage babysitter who watches my kids for a few hours or just the guys I hire to help me build a deck? Maybe I just won’t engage in that kind of intra-community commerce for fear of being arrested.
The key to your guest worker program is fixing labor laws. Without robust labor protections in place, guest worker programs become an easy, and now legal, way for corporations to exploit workers.
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deleted87051
Okay. How about presidents who break our laws? Maybe he wouldn’t be subject to so many “witch hunts” if he didn’t break so many laws.
“Among Mr. Trump’s admissions in court papers: The charity gave his campaign complete control over disbursing the $2.8 million that the foundation had raised at a fund-raiser for veterans in Iowa in January 2016, only days before the state’s presidential nominating caucuses. The fund-raiser, he acknowledged, was in fact a campaign event.
The president also admitted to using the foundation to settle the legal obligations of companies he owned, including Mar-a-Lago, his private club in Florida, and the Trump National Golf Club in Westchester County, N.Y. And he acknowledged that the foundation purchased the $10,000 portrait of Mr. Trump, which was ultimately displayed at one of his Florida hotels.”
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DrGasPasser
Full Member
Again, be careful with your assumptions. The military has recently allowed criminals with some regularity. It’s called a conduct waiver. Between 2003 and 2006, the military allowed 4,230 convicted felons to enlist by granting them conduct waivers. In 2006 and 2007, waivers were given to three applicants with manslaughter convictions; 11 who had been convicted of arson; 142 who had been convicted on burglary charges; seven with convictions for sex crimes; three with convictions for making terrorist threats, including bomb threats; and one with a conviction for kidnapping. In 2008, the Army issued 372 waivers for felony convictions, down from 511 the year before. In 2009, the Army granted 220 waivers and seven in 2010. There were times that I felt the entirety of our Air Force was comprised of criminals, but I digress.
The larger point is that a number of green card vets commit crimes after their service which exposes them to deportation. The extent to which their service-connected disabilities contributed to their crimes is a factor that is considered by immigration courts and federal courts of appeals (none other than the Ninth Circuit in this case). All of these cases have been scrutinized by courts and it’s not just Trump pushing his red “deport” button.
Posting on a medical forum that America’s handling of these cases is somehow cruel and ungrateful, or a reason for us to be hated by the rest of the world without any context to their complexity is disingenuous. This is especially true when you can’t provide a specific, acceptable alternative to what the courts have decided.
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DrGasPasser
Full Member
Again, I didn’t vote for Trump. So, go through the process of convicting him of a felony and I’ll gladly sing “Ding Dong the Witch is Dead” with you.
Just remember that my comment was directed at green card vets who were convicted of felonies by a jury of their peers and now face deportation based on our current laws. Show me the case of a vet being deported for bulli**** misdemeanors and I’ll join your outrage.
If you can't be bothered to know anything about the person you hire to watch your kids, I don't know what to tell you.
Somehow I've made it through my entire life without ever needing to hire dubious labor.
Even a formal guest worker program that replaces illegal labor would be an improvement. It would reduce the kind of "if you complain about getting paid $3/hour, your buddy who lost a finger last week, or that foreman who grabbed your ass the other day, maybe you'll get deported" leverage employers of illegal labor have. Because now the legal guest worker could go to the cops, or OSHA, without fear of being hauled back to Guatemala or wherever.
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deleted643396
That’s not the point. You’re telling me that an individual citizen who hires someone for a “gig” now has to have the means to professionally vet someone for fear of being arrested or paying some extreme fine? I have a moving van parked outside my city apartment and it’s a 4 flight walk up. I give a couple guys off the street $100 each to spend an hour helping me move furniture. It turns out they are illegal immigrants and ICE comes to get them while I’m moving a couch. Now I’m getting arrested too? Or that teenager I’ve known for years is actually a family that overstayed a visa. I come home from dinner and a movie to handcuffs? To your point, I’m fine punishing large scale employers who intentionally hire illegal immigrants, but not the individual who needs some help building a deck.
We have guest worker programs. They are visas sponsored by employers. In order for your guest worker program to work you would need to decouple the working visa from employer sponsorship. Work visas need to be portable. Otherwise you just have a easy way for workers to be exploited. Again, strong labor protections that apply to both American and foreign workers is what is needed. It needs to be just as expensive (if not more expensive) to hire foreign labor as it is to hire American labor.
DrGasPasser
Full Member
While I agree that a Pink Floyd style wall spanning the entire Southern border is impractical, I’m not sure that such a proposal exists outside of campaign speeches. What is being proposed by CBP is increased physical barriers to stem the flow of personnel and contraband at certain high volume points that are hard to patrol. I see no reason to believe that this proposal by people who spend their careers trying to control movement across our border is stupid, simplistic, idiotic, or irrational.
I agree that targeting employers is a great way to lessen illegal immigrant workers. However, there is still an issue of smuggling and contraband. I’m inclined to trust the CBP recommendations since our society has chosen non-lethal means to address this problem (i.e. tanks, alligators, and 6 million land mines are unacceptable).
I think there's room for some compromise on the scale of the offense that deserves prosecution.
I'm not real sympathetic though. I wouldn't hire someone to do construction work on my property without appropriate license and bond. Same with movers.
And that's the exact point. Hiring illegal labor should hurt more than hiring legal labor. Part of that pain should be legal consequences.
DrGasPasser
Full Member
Not a chance in Hell.
Don't move the goalposts; President Trump's campaign promise and continued presidential promise has always been to build a wall from sea to shining sea. Yeah, sure, we should give the non-partisan CBP experts who don't stump campaign speeches the tools needed to do the job they're charged with. But that's not what we were talking about.
The answer to smuggling contraband is to end prohibition and abandon the War On Drugs, which is the only thing in this thread dumber than the wall.
Got any more problems for me to solve? 🙂
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