Will Trump win again???

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Direct testimony confirming quid pro quo, wait, it’s the fake MSM— but wait, this is the conservative Native Review.


 
U.S. Code § 201. Bribery of public officials and witnesses

...
(2) being a public official or person selected to be a public official, directly or indirectly, corruptly demands, seeks, receives, accepts, or agrees to receive or accept anything of value personally or for any other person or entity, in return for:

(A) being influenced in the performance of any official act;

(B) being influenced to commit or aid in committing, or to collude in, or allow, any fraud, or make opportunity for the commission of any fraud, on the United States; or

(C) being induced to do or omit to do any act in violation of the official duty of such official or person;
 
Nunes and that look you have when you are well into adulthood, but fear something is profoundly amiss in your boxers....

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At some point, you need to ask yourself why Trump surrounds himself with corrupt, dip****, “personal” attorneys?

As for Rudy:

1CFB7BF8-97CB-4EFF-B619-81627B2B1DFF.jpeg
 
At some point, you need to ask yourself why Trump surrounds himself with corrupt, dip****, “personal” attorneys?

As for Rudy:

View attachment 286820
It is actually quite uncommon for a US attorneys office to either confirm or deny that a formal investigation is on-going. Thus, the recent announcement of the investigation of Rudy does not bode well for him at all. If they do drop papers on him, well, it’s an almost forgone conclusion he will be found guilty, as their success rates on prosecutions are well over 90 percent...
 
"Rub-a-dub-dub, 3 men in a tub. And who do you think they be?"---Nursery Rhyme

MPs demand Zelensky, Trump investigate suspicion of U.S.-Ukraine corruption involving $7.4 bln
Hmmm, one, any financial concern will have a fair amount of political/lobbying donation to both parties. Two, it appears much more money was spent on Rs than Ds over the years...

 
Trump wanted to pressure Ukraine into investigating Hunter Biden and Burisma. He sent Rudy to Ukraine to push that agenda. Trump wanted a quid pro quo but it didn’t happen. The evidence points to Zelensky being unaware the military aid was tied to the investigations. By the time the Ukrainian officials knew the military aid was conditional on “investigations” the aid was scheduled to be released.

Trump haters should be satisfied knowing that even when trying to pull off a quid pro quo Trump was too incompetent to do so. I believe Trump had the intent to link the aid to the public statement of investigations by Zelensky. But, Zelensky was unaware of the necessity to do this to get the aid.

That’s how I see this case based on the evidence so far. I think the House will impeach Trump but the Senate won’t remove him from office
 
Trump wanted to pressure Ukraine into investigating Hunter Biden and Burisma. He sent Rudy to Ukraine to push that agenda. Trump wanted a quid pro quo but it didn’t happen. The evidence points to Zelensky being unaware the military aid was tied to the investigations. By the time the Ukrainian officials knew the military aid was conditional on “investigations” the aid was scheduled to be released.

Trump haters should be satisfied knowing that even when trying to pull off a quid pro quo Trump was too incompetent to do so. I believe Trump had the intent to link the aid to the public statement of investigations by Zelensky. But, Zelensky was unaware of the necessity to do this to get the aid.

That’s how I see this case based on the evidence so far. I think the House will impeach Trump but the Senate won’t remove him from office

Yup, nothing will come of it when it’s all said and done. House will vote against him, senate won’t. Tons of time will be wasted. Trump will run campaign ads clipping together every single witness saying repeatedly that they have zero evidence of a quid pro quo. Trump will get re-elected. Dems will whine for 4 more years.


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By the time the Ukrainian officials knew the military aid was conditional on “investigations” the aid was scheduled to be released.

Wrong. The aid was slated to be released in June or July but was held up. It was only subsequently released Sept 11th ........two days after the ICIG notified the Intelligence committee that he had received a credible whistleblower complaint that the aid was being held up for domestic political reasons. Furthermore, the fiscal year ends Sept 30, so if the drug deal hadn’t been exposed Ukraine would’ve lost the aid entirely if Zelensky didn’t do the public CNN announcement. It’s also laughable to think that Z and his top advisors didn’t know exactly why the aid was being held up.

E11E3511-9B49-4CBA-9BF0-F7610F1DCA5C.gif
 
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R4
Wrong. The aid was slated to be released in June or July but was held up. It was only subsequently released Sept 11th ........two days after the ICIG notified the Intelligence committee that he had received a credible whistleblower complaint that the aid was being held up for domestic political reasons. Furthermore, the fiscal year ends Sept 30, so if the drug deal hadn’t been exposed Ukraine would’ve lost the aid entirely if Zelensky didn’t do the public CNN announcement. It’s also laughable to think that Z and his top advisors didn’t know exactly why the aid was being held up.

View attachment 286830

I listed to a lot of the testimony. My take away was that Trump wanted a quid pro quo but that one did not occur. This is fact. Second, Volker was very clear last night the Ukrainians were unaware until late August that aid was actually be held up by Trump. These are the facts.

If you believe Trump should be removed from office for attempting this quid pro quo ( it did not occur) then I understand your decision. If I was voting to remove Trump from office on this my vote would be No. Trump stays until the election.

You can make an argument Trump should never have held up the money. That his attempted quid pro quo is enough for removal. But, the facts do not support that the Ukrainians were aware of this quid pro quo until the aid was released ( per Volker).

My conclusions are based on the testimony of the officials from yesterday and today not the anti Trump NY Times or the Clinton News Network. Nor, did Fox News influence my conclusion.

Again, Trump haters have all they need to impeach him. Trump supporters have just enough to justify a vote to keep Trump in office.
 
R4


I listed to a lot of the testimony. My take away was that Trump wanted a quid pro quo but that one did not occur. This is fact. Second, Volker was very clear last night the Ukrainians were unaware until late August that aid was actually be held up by Trump. These are the facts.

If you believe Trump should be removed from office for attempting this quid pro quo ( it did not occur) then I understand your decision. If I was voting to remove Trump from office on this my vote would be No. Trump stays until the election.

You can make an argument Trump should never have held up the money. That his attempted quid pro quo is enough for removal. But, the facts do not support that the Ukrainians were aware of this quid pro quo until the aid was released ( per Volker).

Even if the Ukrainians weren’t aware til August (false, it was much earlier), the aid was still only released in September after the plot was exposed, so you are incorrect in claiming that the Ukrainians were unaware of the quid pro quo.

Regardless, attempted murder is still a crime, even if the cops show up before the trigger is pulled. Trump gets no points for failing at his nakedly criminal attempt at extortion, and to let him off would just embolden him to try it again.
 
Even if the Ukrainians weren’t aware til August (false, it was much earlier), the aid was still only released in a September after the plot was exposed, so you are incorrect in claiming that the Ukrainians were unaware of the quid pro quo.

Regardless, attempted murder is still a crime, even if the cops show up before the trigger is pulled. Trump gets no points for failing at his nakedly criminal attempt at extortion, and to let him off would just embolden him to do it again.

Fine. We agree to disagree on your decision to remove from office. I based my opinion on the facts from the testimony of these officials. If the Senate heard the same testimony Trump will remain in office.

FYI, if Trump does something like this again he will lose the support of reasonable Republicans and be removed from office. This will be his final warning and I know Mitch McConnell will make that very clear to Trump.

I do find it ironic that a President who lies under oath and to the entire nation by dishonoring the office of the President can stay in office but a ***** who attempts to investigate corruption ( I do see corruption with Biden) in the wrong way should be removed from office. Using today’s standard Clinton committed a crime when he demanded sexual favors from Lewinsky.

Anyway, Vector2 that’s how I see this unfolding over the next 2 or 3 months.
 
Fine. We agree to disagree on your decision to remove from office. I based my opinion on the facts from the testimony of these officials. If the Senate heard the same testimony Trump will remain in office.

FYI, if Trump does something like this again he will lose the support of reasonable Republicans and be removed from office. This will be his final warning and I know Mitch McConnell will make that very clear to Trump.

I do find it ironic that a President who lies under oath and to the entire nation by dishonoring the office of the President can stay in office but a ***** who attempts to investigate corruption ( I do see corruption with Biden) in the wrong way should be removed from office. Using today’s standard Clinton committed a crime when he demanded sexual favors from Lewinsky.

Anyway, Vector2 that’s how I see this unfolding over the next 2 or 3 months.

Fantastic point about dems hypocrisy when it comes to Clinton’s situation can Trump. And yes, most logical, honest people can admit the Biden situation is very sketchy at best.


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Fine. We agree to disagree on your decision to remove from office. I based my opinion on the facts from the testimony of these officials. If the Senate heard the same testimony Trump will remain in office.

FYI, if Trump does something like this again he will lose the support of reasonable Republicans and be removed from office. This will be his final warning and I know Mitch McConnell will make that very clear to Trump.

I do find it ironic that a President who lies under oath and to the entire nation by dishonoring the office of the President can stay in office but a ***** who attempts to investigate corruption ( I do see corruption with Biden) in the wrong way should be removed from office. Using today’s standard Clinton committed a crime when he demanded sexual favors from Lewinsky.

Anyway, Vector2 that’s how I see this unfolding over the next 2 or 3 months.

Lol, I’m sure Trump is quaking in his boots about losing the support of “reasonable Republicans.” In reality, he’s already lost the support of reasonable Republicans like Mitt Romney or Weld or Flake or Corker. All he’s got left is the rabid base and the people too scared to cross him (current GOP Senators ).

Give me a break with your nonsense about Trump “attempting to investigate corruption in the wrong way.” He attempted illegal extortion involving a foreign country and $400m of congressionally appropriated aid, and he almost succeeded. If you think that’s in the same league as lying about a consensual blowjob then I guess that’s your business.
 
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Lol, I’m sure Trump is quaking in his boots about losing the support of “reasonable Republicans.” In reality, he’s already lost the support of reasonable Republicans like Mitt Romney or Weld or Flake or Corker. All he’s got left is the rabid base and the people too scared to cross him (GOP Senators ).

Give me a break with your nonsense about Trump “attempting to investigate corruption in the wrong way.” He attempted illegal extortion involving a foreign country and $400m of congressionally appropriated aid, and he almost succeeded. If you think that’s in the same league as lying about a consensual blowjob then I guess that’s your business.

Sondland, the only one who actually talked to the president testified today that he had zero evidence of quid pro quo, only presumptions. And not only that, but that Trump told him he wanted absolutely nothing from Zelensky, only that he do the right thing and do what he ran on -anti corruption and transparency.

Would we ever convict someone of murder because the police presumed they killed someone? Of course not. We don’t function on presumptions in this country. We function based on proof. Innocent until PROVEN guilty. There is no proof.

You can do your angry ranting all you want, but there’s no EVIDENCE of any quid pro quo. Sorry.


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Too bad all of the main players (Mulvaney, Bolton, Pompeo, Giuiliani, Trump) have all refused to comply with lawful subpoenas. Heck, even Slick Willy sat down with Starr. Would be nice to see whether Mulvaney would be willing to perjure himself and claim he was mistaken (lying) when he admitted the quid pro quo on national tv

99295804-8D0D-4C8C-A705-6D4509215F19.gif
 
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Sondland, the only one who actually talked to the president testified today that he had zero evidence of quid pro quo, only presumptions. And not only that, but that Trump told him he wanted absolutely nothing from Zelensky, only that he do the right thing and do what he ran on -anti corruption and transparency.

Would we ever convict someone of murder because the police presumed they killed someone? Of course not. We don’t function on presumptions in this country. We function based on proof. Innocent until PROVEN guilty. There is no proof.

You can do your angry ranting all you want, but there’s no EVIDENCE of any quid pro quo. Sorry.

Isn't it interesting that Pompeo, Trump, and Pence were all in loop, and nothing illegal actually happened?

It's as if the people actually making decisions were trying to do the right thing. And then you have a call transcript. And a Lt Gen on the call who said he found nothing wrong...
 
Too bad all of the main players (Mulvaney, Bolton, Pompeo, Giuiliani, Trump) have all refused to comply with lawful subpoenas. Would be nice to see whether Mulvaney would be willing to perjure himself and claim he was mistaken (lying) when he admitted the quid pro quo on national tv

View attachment 286840
Indeed. If the truth were on their side, MM would testify in a second. But that’s not the case, and given how Roger Stone was canned last week and facing serious time for perjury, MM will never place his freedom at risk.
 
Isn't it interesting that Pompeo, Trump, and Pence were all in loop, and nothing illegal actually happened?

It's as if the people actually making decisions were trying to do the right thing. And then you have a call transcript. And a Lt Gen on the call who said he found nothing wrong...
What is more telling, is that all three of these folks have first hand knowledge and could testify to the truth of the matter and they are not—why—perjury.
 
——
U.S. Ambassador to the European Union Gordon Sondland testified Wednesday that there was a quid pro quo between Ukraine conducting politically motivated investigations and getting a meeting between President Trumpand Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky.

Sondland said the connection between these two issues was widely known throughout the administration.
“I know that members of this Committee have frequently framed these complicated issues in the form of a simple question: Was there a ‘quid pro quo?’ As I testified previously, with regard to the requested White House call and White House meeting, the answer is yes,” Sondland said in his opening statement.

Sondland also said U.S. military assistance to Ukraine was withheld and that in "the absence of any credible" reason for the hold on assistance, he emailed Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and asked if Trump and Zelensky should meet to try to break that "logjam." He said Pompeo responded affirmatively.

Sondland in his testimony says that many throughout the Trump administration realized the link between the issues of quid pro quo and the White House visit, delivering a blow to Republicans who have sought to bat down claims there were contingencies placed by Trump for such probes, which are now at the center of the House impeachment inquiry.

“Everyone was in the loop. It was no secret. Everyone was informed on July 19, days before the Presidential call," he said. "As I communicated to the team, I told President Zelensky in advance that assurances to 'run a fully transparent investigation' and 'turn over every stone' were necessary in his call with President Trump."

The names on the email included Pompeo, acting White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney, the chief of staff to then-Energy Secretary Rick Perry, and others.
...
Sondland testified that he has “no reason to doubt” the accounts of other witnesses who have detailed a July 26 phone call between Sondland and Trump, which took place a day after an infamous White House call Trump made to Ukraine's president where he pushed for investigations of former Vice President Joe Biden and his son Hunter. During the July 26 call, he also raised the matter of “investigations.”

“Other witnesses have recently shared their recollection of overhearing this call. For the most part, I have no reason to doubt their accounts,” Sondland said.


—-

This guy donated 1 million dollars to Trump’s inauguration. He is telling the truth because he knows more facts and testimony will come out, and he’d much rather go back to his hotels than go to jail.
 
What is more telling, is that all three of these folks have first hand knowledge and could testify to the truth of the matter and they are not—why—perjury.
That's quite the conspiracy theory.

Or, the simplest explanation: executive branch internal deliberation and foreign policy, and no actual illegality.
 
That's quite the conspiracy theory.

Or, the simplest explanation: executive branch internal deliberation and foreign policy, and no actual illegality.
Or you could quite easily provide first hand testimony (which they have continually harpEd on as to previous witnesses) and correct the record with the truth—unless, what they have to say is actually contradictory and exposes themselves to federal perjury.
 
Or you could quite easily provide first hand testimony (which they have continually harpEd on as to previous witnesses) and correct the record with the truth—unless, what they have to say is actually contradictory and exposes themselves to federal perjury.

Sondland corrected the record pretty well today when he said the president never asked for a quid pro quo.


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Ambassador to the European Union Gordon Sondland’s testimony makes exquisitely clear that the House, in exercising its impeachment power, is entitled to hear from a series of witnesses who have so far either refused requests to testify or not been summoned. They include, at a minimum: Vice President Pence, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, acting White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney, former national security adviser John Bolton, soon-to-be-former Energy Secretary Rick Perry and Rudolph W. Giuliani, the president’s personal lawyer.

The individuals listed above are firsthand fact witnesses in an inquiry whose seriousness was underscored by Sondland’s stark assessment: “Was there a ‘quid pro quo’?

With regard to the requested White House call and White House meeting, the answer is yes,” Sondland testified. In addition, he said with regard to the $400 million in military aid for Ukraine whose release was being held up, “In the absence of any credible explanation for the hold, I came to the conclusion that the aid, like the White House visit, was jeopardized,” Sondland said.

Republicans have conjured up a bunch of smoke about the unfairness and unreliability of hearsay evidence, although hearsay rules do not apply in this setting, nor are they absolute. They have tried to discredit or play down the significance of some witnesses on the grounds that they had no direct contact with President Trump. Well, then let’s hear from those who did. The Watergate question is a cliche but one with particular pertinence here: What did they know, and when did they know it?

The fact that these three could easily testify and if they were to to tell the truth it would directly refute everything else that has been submitted to this point should tell you everything you need to know-e.g. the truth is not on their side.
 
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Lol, I swear my grandkids are never gonna believe I lived through this clownshow of a presidency
 
——
U.S. Ambassador Gordon Sondland told the panel leading the proceedings that Giuliani was expressing Trump’s desires when he “demanded” Ukraine announce investigations involving Trump’s personal political rivals.

Trump seized on Sondland’s recollection of a phone call the two men had in September, when Sondland asked the president directly about his plans for Ukraine.

“What do you want from Ukraine? I keep hearing all these different ideas and theories. What do you want, what do you want?” Sondland asked in that call, according to Trump, who was speaking to reporters outside the White House. Sondland had made similar remarks about the call in his testimony earlier Wednesday.

Trump, reading off a pad of paper with notes jotted in black marker, said he told Sondland on the call: “I want nothing. I want nothing. I want no quid pro quo. Tell [Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskiy] to do the right thing.”

——

DB436A89-430D-4922-B617-3D3C2D4F3A8C.jpeg
 
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Lol, I swear my grandkids are never gonna believe I lived through this clownshow of a presidency

Ahhh, the perfect blend of rancid grapes, ubiquitous lies, essence of ***** monger extract and a sh#t show make believe winery—-so refreshing—not.
 
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Say what you want about hearsay being admissible...how about presumption? That good too?


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Say what you want about hearsay being admissible...how about presumption? That good too?


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Like I said prior, maybe apply to law school (I suggest a good one), but to your pithy point, In the law of evidence, a presumption of a particular fact can be made without the aid of proof....
 
Lol, I’m sure Trump is quaking in his boots about losing the support of “reasonable Republicans.” In reality, he’s already lost the support of reasonable Republicans like Mitt Romney or Weld or Flake or Corker. All he’s got left is the rabid base and the people too scared to cross him (current GOP Senators ).

Give me a break with your nonsense about Trump “attempting to investigate corruption in the wrong way.” He attempted illegal extortion involving a foreign country and $400m of congressionally appropriated aid, and he almost succeeded. If you think that’s in the same league as lying about a consensual blowjob then I guess that’s your business.

I think lying and deceit in the OFFICE of POTUS is in the same league regardless of the scum bag in question. You are a partisan who can't see past the politics. Corruption, deceit, lying, etc is a game they all play. But, Trump plays it very poorly which is why he is being impeached.
 
Vector2, I heard the testimony today from Sondland. Today was a very bad day for TRUMP. Sondland clearly said Trump wanted a quid pro quo. We agree on that fact.

But, where we disagree are the facts around Zelensky and other Ukrainian officials. I heard VOLKER clearly say that the Ukrainians were not aware of any Quid Pro Quo and they did not know the aid was being help up due to failure to publicly announce Investigations into Burisma and corruptions.

Now, I believe all the testimony I heard yesterday and today which leads me to vote "No" as to removing Trump from office. I consider myself a reasonable, moderate voter who leans right of center. Hence, there won't be enough GOP defectors in the Senate to remove Trump from office.

Why can't you see Clinton was almost as bad as Trump back in the day? Yet, his "crime" didn't rise to the level of being removed from office. Trump did not get a Quid Pro Quo despite the fact he wanted one. I believe that level of "crime" doesn't warrant removal from office either.

One last point is that the next time around I will be with the Democrats in demanding the removal of Trump from office. This is his last and final warning IMHO. I voted for the man in 2016 and will likely vote for him again in 2020 but only because a true moderate Democrat won't be on the ballot.

I dislike Trump and have pointed out in my posts that he may be the worst human being to ever hold the office in my lifetime. That said, I vote based on policy over the character, or lack thereof, of the person seeking/holding the office
 
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Vector2, I heard the testimony today from Sondland. Today was a very bad day for TRUMP. Sondland clearly said Trump wanted a quid pro quo. We agree on that fact.

Did Sondland say today that Trump asked for a quid pro quo? No.

Did Sondland say that he presumed Trump wanted a quid pro quo for the military aid? Yes.

Did Sondland say the Trump told him he wanted nothing from Zelensky, no quid pro quo? Yes.

Those were the definitive statements I heard today.


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While couching his language regarding the aid hold-up, Sondland was more explicit when it came to the link between investigations and a White House meeting and call between Trump and Zelensky. He bluntly described Giuliani's requests linking the two as a quid pro quo.
He told the committee: “I know that members of this committee have frequently framed these complicated issues in the form of a simple question: Was there a ‘quid pro quo? ... As I testified previously, with regard to the requested White House call and White House meeting, the answer is yes.”


 
Vector2, I heard the testimony today from Sondland. Today was a very bad day for TRUMP. Sondland clearly said Trump wanted a quid pro quo. We agree on that fact.

But, where we disagree are the facts around Zelensky and other Ukrainian officials. I heard VOLKER clearly say that the Ukrainians were not aware of any Quid Pro Quo and they did not know the aid was being help up due to failure to publicly announce Investigations into Burisma and corruptions.

Now, I believe all the testimony I heard yesterday and today which leads me to vote "No" as to removing Trump from office. I consider myself a reasonable, moderate voter who leans right of center. Hence, there won't be enough GOP defectors in the Senate to remove Trump from office.

Why can't you see Clinton was almost as bad as Trump back in the day? Yet, his "crime" didn't rise to the level of being removed from office. Trump did not get a Quid Pro Quo despite the fact he wanted one. I believe that level of "crime" doesn't warrant removal from office either.

Blade, you literally just said in your last set of posts that Volker said that August is when the Ukrainians became aware of the conditions. I’ve cited reports saying that the Ukrainians knew of the quid pro quo earlier, but let’s put that aside for a second and go with what Volker said which was August

— -
The texts next show Sondland and Volker connecting on Aug. 9, with Sondland informing Volker that Morrison at the NSC was prepared to “get dates”—presumably for a possible White House visit—“as soon as Yermak confirms.” “How did you sway him?” Volker asks, implying that Morrison may have been opposed to a White House meeting. “Not sure did[,]” Sondland writes, “I think potus really wants the deliverable[.]” The nature of the deliverable isn’t clear—but subsequent texts suggest that it has to do with the investigations being advocated for by Giuliani. “To avoid misundestandigs [sic], might be helpful to ask [Yermak] for a draft statement (embargoed) so that we can see exactly what they propose to cover,” Sondland proposes, to which Volker agrees. The two then reach out to Giuliani for guidance to, in Volker’s words, “make sure I advise Z correctly as to what he should be saying[.]”

The next day, Aug. 10, Volker raises this statement with Yermak. Yermak agrees that “it’s possible” but pushes for a confirmed White House visit date for Zelensky first. “Once we have a date,” Yermak makes clear, “will call for a press briefing, announcing upcoming visit and outlining vision for the reboot of US-UKRAINE relationship, including among other things Burisma and election meddling in investigations[.]” Volker confirms that this is the sort of statement he and Sondland had proposed, responding: “Sounds great!” A few days later, on Aug. 13, Sondland and Volker trade texts ironing out the text of a draft statement to be presented to Yermak
——


We know for a fact that the aid was only released September 11th, two days after the whistleblower revealed the extortion plot. We also know that Z was in the US and was going to sit down with Fareed Zakaria and announce the Biden investigation....if not for the stroke of luck of the plot being exposed.

It is simply unfactual to claim that the Ukrainians didn’t know they were being extorted.


As far as Clinton (who I wouldn’t vote for if he was hypothetically on the ballot today), I think you know deep down that you’re making a false equivalence. We all agree lying is unethical, and Clinton shouldn’t have lied under oath. Even if Clinton was subject to a witchhunt that began with whitewater and somehow ended up in the bedroom, can we all agree that unlawfully withholding $400 million in congressionally appropriated funds for political gain is more akin to what the founders had in mind in regard to impeachment, and that they didn’t have lying about an affair in mind when talking about bribery, treason, and high crimes and misdemeanors? It would be strange if you think otherwise considering Thomas Jefferson had a bazillion illegitimate children and Benjamin Franklin was a notorious womanizer.
 
Did Sondland say today that Trump asked for a quid pro quo? No.

Did Sondland say that he presumed Trump wanted a quid pro quo for the military aid? Yes.

Did Sondland say the Trump told him he wanted nothing from Zelensky, no quid pro quo? Yes.

Those were the definitive statements I heard today.


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Trump never got a Quid Pro Quo but he sure as heck wanted one. When you hear all the testimony taken at face value in a non partisan manner that is the take-away message here.
 
Blade, you literally just said in your last set of posts that Volker said that August is when the Ukrainians became aware of the conditions. I’ve cited reports saying that the Ukrainians knew of the quid pro quo earlier, but let’s put that aside for a second and go with what Volker said which was August

— -
The texts next show Sondland and Volker connecting on Aug. 9, with Sondland informing Volker that Morrison at the NSC was prepared to “get dates”—presumably for a possible White House visit—“as soon as Yermak confirms.” “How did you sway him?” Volker asks, implying that Morrison may have been opposed to a White House meeting. “Not sure did[,]” Sondland writes, “I think potus really wants the deliverable[.]” The nature of the deliverable isn’t clear—but subsequent texts suggest that it has to do with the investigations being advocated for by Giuliani. “To avoid misundestandigs [sic], might be helpful to ask [Yermak] for a draft statement (embargoed) so that we can see exactly what they propose to cover,” Sondland proposes, to which Volker agrees. The two then reach out to Giuliani for guidance to, in Volker’s words, “make sure I advise Z correctly as to what he should be saying[.]”

The next day, Aug. 10, Volker raises this statement with Yermak. Yermak agrees that “it’s possible” but pushes for a confirmed White House visit date for Zelensky first. “Once we have a date,” Yermak makes clear, “will call for a press briefing, announcing upcoming visit and outlining vision for the reboot of US-UKRAINE relationship, including among other things Burisma and election meddling in investigations[.]” Volker confirms that this is the sort of statement he and Sondland had proposed, responding: “Sounds great!” A few days later, on Aug. 13, Sondland and Volker trade texts ironing out the text of a draft statement to be presented to Yermak
——


We know for a fact that the aid was only released September 11th, two days after the whistleblower revealed the extortion plot. We also know that Z was in the US and was going to sit down with Fareed Zakaria and announce the Biden investigation....if not for the stroke of luck of the plot being exposed.

It is simply unfactual to claim that the Ukrainians didn’t know they were being extorted.


As far as Clinton (who I wouldn’t vote for if he was hypothetically on the ballot today), I think you know deep down that you’re making a false equivalence. We all agree lying is unethical, and Clinton shouldn’t have lied under oath. Even if Clinton was subject to a witchhunt that began with whitewater and somehow ended up in the bedroom, can we all agree that unlawfully withholding $400 million in congressionally appropriated funds for political gain is more akin to what the founders had in mind in regard to impeachment? Thomas Jefferson had a bazillion illegitimate children. Benjamin Franklin was a notorious womanizer. These men were still patriots, no?

I heard Volker's testimony live on TV. I know what he said to the committee members. He explained those texts in great detail. Volker claimed the Ukrainians were not aware of any quid pro quo for the aid.

I really don't care what Clinton did in his private life. I can see voting "no" for removing from office. But, I can also see voting "no" for the idiot Trump who was too stupid to even pull off a quid pro quo.

I know your mind is made up but I want you to read my take on the matter so you can scream a bit less when the Senate "clears" Trump early next year.
 
I heard Volker's testimony live on TV. I know what he said to the committee members. He explained those texts in great detail. Volker claimed the Ukrainians were not aware of any quid pro quo for the aid.

I really don't care what Clinton did in his private life. I can see voting "no" for removing from office. But, I can also see voting "no" for the idiot Trump who was too stupid to even pull off a quid pro quo.

I know your mind is made up but I want you to read my take on the matter so you can scream a bit less when the Senate "clears" Trump early next year.

He was referencing the July call specifically. It certainly became apparent after that, and even if Volker doesn’t say so, he’s still a witness for the GOP after all. On the other hand, you have 5 other people who essentially say there was a quid pro quo. You have Mulvaney, Giuliani, Pompeo, Bolton, and Trump who have refused to comply with subpoenas and testify. They can’t testify because they would perjure themselves like Clinton.

Don’t pretend as if your mind isn’t made up and you’re not being partisan if Volker’s testimony is going to be the end-all-be-all of where you derive your opinion. “Too stupid to pull off a quid pro quo” isn’t what happened, and it’s also a weak defense regardless. Say it with me: THEY. GOT. CAUGHT. That’s the only reason the aid was released on 9/11. An attempted crime is still a crime.

As for what I think of the eventual result, I’ve known since 2017-2018 that the odds of Trump getting convicted in the Senate for any impeachable offense are essentially zero. His base is too rabid and current GOP politicians are too cowardly to criticize him unless it’s anonymously or they’ve already resigned.
 
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Vector2, I heard the testimony today from Sondland. Today was a very bad day for TRUMP. Sondland clearly said Trump wanted a quid pro quo. We agree on that fact.

But, where we disagree are the facts around Zelensky and other Ukrainian officials. I heard VOLKER clearly say that the Ukrainians were not aware of any Quid Pro Quo and they did not know the aid was being help up due to failure to publicly announce Investigations into Burisma and corruptions.

Now, I believe all the testimony I heard yesterday and today which leads me to vote "No" as to removing Trump from office. I consider myself a reasonable, moderate voter who leans right of center. Hence, there won't be enough GOP defectors in the Senate to remove Trump from office.

Why can't you see Clinton was almost as bad as Trump back in the day? Yet, his "crime" didn't rise to the level of being removed from office. Trump did not get a Quid Pro Quo despite the fact he wanted one. I believe that level of "crime" doesn't warrant removal from office either.

One last point is that the next time around I will be with the Democrats in demanding the removal of Trump from office. This is his last and final warning IMHO. I voted for the man in 2016 and will likely vote for him again in 2020 but only because a true moderate Democrat won't be on the ballot.

I dislike Trump and have pointed out in my posts that he may be the worst human being to ever hold the office in my lifetime. That said, I vote based on policy over the character, or lack thereof, of the person seeking/holding the office
You are aware, whether the Ukrainians were aware or not aware, that still sets up the prima facie case for attempt to bribery.....so, I’m not so sure on your point.
 
I do find it ironic that a President who lies under oath and to the entire nation by dishonoring the office of the President can stay in office but a ***** who attempts to investigate corruption ( I do see corruption with Biden) in the wrong way should be removed from office.

Yeah he is ”investigating” so many others for corruption🙄
 
.Don’t pretend as if your mind isn’t made up and you’re not being partisan if Volker’s testimony is going to be the end-all-be-all of where you derive your opinion. “Too stupid to pull off a quid pro quo” isn’t what happened, and it’s also a weak defense regardless. Say it with me: THEY. GOT. CAUGHT. That’s the only reason the aid was released on 9/11. An attempted crime is still a crime.

So what’s your non-partisan take on Sondland’s testimony that he only presumed there was a quid pro quo and that Trump has only told him the opposite, that he wanted nothing from Zelensky and specifically told Sondland no quid pro quo? How does your liberal mind compute those things?
 
“At the time the Constitution was drafted, when people thought of bribery, they thought in broad terms of the corrupt use of an official’s public power to achieve private ends.” For these purposes, there is no difference whether or not the bribe was consummated. As the Illinois Supreme Court explained in an 1872 case, Walsh v. People, 65 Ill. 58, 60, a “mere unsuccessful attempt to bribe” is unlawful because it “tends to corrupt, and, as the law abhors the least tendency to corruption, it punishes the act which is calculated to debase, and which may affect prejudicially the morals of the community.” The “tendency to corruption” is even greater when it is the public official seeking to obtain a bribe. The Founders were rightly concerned about an official wielding power in this way (especially when susceptible to foreign influence), and so provided in the Impeachment Clause a mechanism for such an official’s removal.

Moreover, “To the Founders, bribery was not a concept rooted in traditional criminal law at all and so was not defined with the precision that is required when applying a criminal statute.” Unlike “treason,” which the Constitution delineates in great detail, the Framers left the concept of bribery open-ended.

So while the definition of bribery under the Impeachment Clause is not reliant on federal statutory law, there, too, the solicitation and offering of a bribe is bribery. As a federal appeals court explained, the statute “is violated even though the official offered a bribe is not corrupted, or the object of the bribe could not be attained, or it could make no difference if after the act were done it turned out that there had been actually no occasion to seek to influence any official conduct.” In other words, as most criminal law experts pointed out when Fox News commentator Laura Ingraham suggested that attempted bribery did not rise to the level of impeachability, the modern crime of bribery includes attempted bribery.
 
I think the Trump quote that will live most infamously will be the one about shooting someone in NYC in public and his supporters not caring. This thread is filled with the most impressive mental gymnastics I've ever seen.
 
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"Mr. Sondland confirmed what has already been known, that there was a clear “quid pro quo” linking a coveted White House meeting for Ukraine’s president to the investigations Mr. Trump wanted. And he said he was concerned about “a potential quid pro quo” linking $391 million in security aid that Mr. Trump suspended to the investigations he desired.

But under questioning, Mr. Sondland acknowledged that Mr. Trump never told him that. “I never heard from President Trump that aid was conditioned on an announcement of investigations,” he testified.

And he was asked by Republicans to repeat a conversation he had with Mr. Trump that he has previously described in which he asked the president what he wanted from Ukraine. “It was a very short, abrupt conversation,” Mr. Sondland said. “He was not in a good mood. And he just said, ‘I want nothing. I want nothing. I want no quid pro quo. Tell Zelensky to do the right thing.’”

The conversation took place after the White House had already learned a whistle-blower had come forward with a complaint alleging that the president was abusing his power to try to enlist Ukraine to interfere on his behalf in the 2020 election."
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Importantly, the "I want nothing" part of the conversation that all the sycophants think exonerates Trump was made after Trump learned of the complaint, just like how the 400 mil was released after. No one gets points for coming clean after their hand is caught in the cookie jar.
 
You are aware, whether the Ukrainians were aware or not aware, that still sets up the prima facie case for attempt to bribery.....so, I’m not so sure on your point.


My point is that to remove a President from office the facts need to be more than circumstantial. On cross examination, Ms. Cooper said under oath that she was NOT certain the Ukrainians knew the aid was being held up prior to August 28th. She suspected they may have known but would not say they definitely knew under oath.

Again, you may want to remove a President from office for an "attempted quid pro quo" which hasn't been proven IMHO after all the testimony; I do admit the evidence suggests that Trump likely engaged in "attempted bribery" but from a Republican viewpoint the case is a weak one.

The Senate will vote to keep Trump in office.
 
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"Mr. Sondland confirmed what has already been known, that there was a clear “quid pro quo” linking a coveted White House meeting for Ukraine’s president to the investigations Mr. Trump wanted. And he said he was concerned about “a potential quid pro quo” linking $391 million in security aid that Mr. Trump suspended to the investigations he desired.

But under questioning, Mr. Sondland acknowledged that Mr. Trump never told him that. “I never heard from President Trump that aid was conditioned on an announcement of investigations,” he testified.

And he was asked by Republicans to repeat a conversation he had with Mr. Trump that he has previously described in which he asked the president what he wanted from Ukraine. “It was a very short, abrupt conversation,” Mr. Sondland said. “He was not in a good mood. And he just said, ‘I want nothing. I want nothing. I want no quid pro quo. Tell Zelensky to do the right thing.’”

The conversation took place after the White House had already learned a whistle-blower had come forward with a complaint alleging that the president was abusing his power to try to enlist Ukraine to interfere on his behalf in the 2020 election."
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Importantly, the "I want nothing" part of the conversation that all the sycophants think exonerates Trump was made after Trump learned of the complaint, just like how the 400 mil was released after. No one gets points for coming clean after their hand is caught in the cookie jar.

I listed to more testimony tonight. The evidence of "attempted bribery" is circumstantial and questionable. The case for removing the President from office is a weak one.



This was a very interesting read regarding bribery.

"Recently, the Supreme Court of the United States handed down a ruling in a case that had major repercussions on the world of political corruption; in 2016, SCOTUS unanimously ruled in McDonnell v. United States that former Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell’s corruption convictions should be vacated, because his having merely set up a meeting wasn’t enough to constitute an “official act” within the context of bribery. Once the SCOTUS ruling was handed down, the corruption dominoes began to fall. New York State officials Sheldon Silver, Dean Skelos, and Adam Skelos had their corruption convictions overturned, and charges against U.S. Senator Bob Menendez (D-N.J.) were dismissed. The McDonnell ruling might be relevant to a prosecution for conditioning a White House meeting on political assistance – but it’s tough to see how it would have any bearing on the same conditioning of the Ukrainian military aid package. "



 
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My point is that to remove a President from office the facts need to be more than circumstantial. On cross examination, Ms. Cooper said under oath that she was NOT certain the Ukrainians knew the aid was being held up prior to August 28th. She suspected they may have known but would not say they definitely knew under oath.

Again, you may want to remove a President from office for an "attempted quid pro quo" which hasn't been proven IMHO after all the testimony; I do admit the evidence suggests that Trump likely engaged in "attempted bribery" but from a Republican viewpoint the case is a weak one.

The Senate will vote to keep Trump in office.
A republican point of view, excuse me, but should not the basic standard be the accepted and recognized legal one-not a D or R perspective?
 
A republican point of view, excuse me, but should not the basic standard be the accepted and recognized legal one-not a D or R perspective?

In the end, this is a political trial, as you have pointed out, not a criminal one. Based on that fact and the lack of hard evidence the Republicans in the Senate will not remove him from office.

If the Democrats held 2/3 of the seats in the Senate Trump's future as POTUS would be very questionable at best. I did learn that "bribery" or "attempted bribery" is whatever the House of Representatives says it is in terms of an impeachable offense. There is no legal standard for impeachment. The House can impeach a President on anything they consider serious enough to warrant removal from office. The Senate then decides with a 2/3 majority if the impeachment is justifiable in removing a sitting President from office. That's why the founders made the requirement 2/3 of the Senate and not a simple majority.
 
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