Women’s Issues in OMM

[JAMSisExcitement]

I am considering applying DO because I like the osteopathic philosophy. I would like to know DO students’ impressions of OMM lab, however, and the accommodations made for students who are unwilling to appear in a bra in a co-ed environment — e.g., for religious reasons, psychiatric reasons, past trauma (e.g., sexual assault), physical deformities, and just plain modesty. I don’t need an explanation about the importance of participation (I’ve heard it, I get it, and there’s no reason we can’t “manipulate” our same-sex classmates), nor assurances that “We’re all professionals” (sorry, AOA, but first-year DO students straight outta college are *not* “all professionals”). I am fine — not happy, but fine — to be “manipulated” by fellow women students, in women’s-only spaces, but I cannot and will not be in a bra in front of classmates/instructors who are men. I don’t think I should have to, nor do I think anyone else should have to. Having our traumas outed is horrifying enough, but I will legitimately have a panic attack if I’m expected to be touched topless by a man — however noble the intention.

I am asking about this because I have heard anecdotally that certain DO schools are *not* accommodating when it comes to their less-than-willing OMM participants. Can anyone speak to this? Is it different school-to-school, or are the guidelines established by the AOA? If anyone has personal stories they’d like to share one-on-one, please PM me.

Does this trouble anyone? Have lawsuits ever been filed? What about religious freedoms and respect for headscarves, etc.

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[allantois]

 

[Goro]

I am considering applying DO because I like the osteopathic philosophy. I would like to know DO students’ impressions of OMM lab, however, and the accommodations made for students who are unwilling to appear in a bra in a co-ed environment — e.g., for religious reasons, psychiatric reasons, past trauma (e.g., sexual assault), physical deformities, and just plain modesty. I don’t need an explanation about the importance of participation (I’ve heard it, I get it, and there’s no reason we can’t “manipulate” our same-sex classmates), nor assurances that “We’re all professionals” (sorry, AOA, but first-year DO students straight outta college are *not* “all professionals”). I am fine — not happy, but fine — to be “manipulated” by fellow women students, in women’s-only spaces, but I cannot and will not be in a bra in front of classmates/instructors who are men. I don’t think I should have to, nor do I think anyone else should have to. Having our traumas outed is horrifying enough, but I will legitimately have a panic attack if I’m expected to be touched topless by a man — however noble the intention.

I am asking about this because I have heard anecdotally that certain DO schools are *not* accommodating when it comes to their less-than-willing OMM participants. Can anyone speak to this? Is it different school-to-school, or are the guidelines established by the AOA? If anyone has personal stories they’d like to share one-on-one, please PM me.

Does this trouble anyone? Have lawsuits ever been filed? What about religious freedoms and respect for headscarves, etc.

My female students wear sports bras.

I believe that those with religious beliefs that would disallow a male touching them can have female OMM/OMT partners. I'll have to check. But you're certainly not going to have a women's only space, if you mean no males in the room.

But there comes a point where one can point out that we have particular technical standards, and if you can't play by the rules, then go to an MD school.


FYI, the AOA doesn't oversee the DO schools...COCA does.

 

[deleted729493]

So.. this is a personal experience, but I have never been made to do this. The shirts we use in OMM have the whole back cut all the way down the back. I have friends that are also uncomfortable with having their shirts off or wearing short shorts, and they have never been forced to do anything that they weren't comfortable with.. but you will have to be comfortable with doing OMM on males and females because they represent your future patients.

 

[BellaWriterChic]

In my experience, this has not been an issue. I wear a sports bra with a workout tank or t-shirt and either work out shorts or leggings (or I am in scrubs if I am coming from anatomy) and it has not been a big deal. If you are doing shoulder related things that day, it would be better to opt for a tank v t-shirt so you can see the shoulder, but i have not been asked to sit in lab shirtless. But i am also only ~2 months in...

 

[Magus5454]

As far as we have gone in first year no one has had to be topless yet. There is one girl in our class who always has her head scarf on

 

[Magus5454]

So, just saying if you have an issue with this...find a MD school that will take you. T

To expand on my answer. We have done almost the whole body for ME/MFR/ST, there is a dress code for lab(IE , wear loose clothes you can feel through, no jeans, etc) but developing these skills requires that you have multiple people to practice on.

 

[BluegrassBuckeye]

If it's really that big of an issue for you that it would make or break your decision to go to a school then I would just ask students at those specific schools before applying. I can only speak for my school (CCOM) and no one was ever forced to take their shirt off. We were encouraged to the first couple weeks because we were brand new at palpating, but after the first couple weeks only a handful of people would take their shirts off and it was entirely their own choosing.

 

[JAMSisExcitement]

My female students wear sports bras.

I believe that those with religious beliefs that would disallow a male touching them can have female OMM/OMT partners. I'll have to check. But you're certainly not going to have a women's only space, if you mean no males in the room.

But there comes a point where one can point out that we have particular technical standards, and if you can't play by the rules, then go to an MD school.


FYI, the AOA doesn't oversee the DO schools...COCA does.

Saying that I “can’t play by the rules” is incredibly dismissive of my trauma. It’s not that I don’t want to touch men — it’s that I can’t have men touching *me*. I realize, of course, that as a future doctor I will have men patients, but as a survivor of trauma I continuously arrange my medical life so that I do not have to suffer PTSD... Which is what would happen if I were forced to endure men — not to mention first-year students... Not trained physicians! — touching my half-naked body. I would not get over it; I would not get used to it. It’s extremely sad that someone interested in the osteopathic philosophy should be admonished and told to pursue an alternative pathway merely because MD faculty might actually give a hoot about the autonomy of women’s bodies and our right to say NO. So long as there’re some women willing to be touched by men students, I don’t see how my extenuating circumstance will ruins my classmates’ education. I think this is awfully silly, and possibly illegal. And I’m guessing you’d take my concerns more seriously if they were religious instead of psychiatric. It is absurd that in 2018 you are unsympathetic to the notion of women’s-only spaces... If you really wanted victims of sexual violence, religious chastity, etc., to learn to be physicians, you’d manage to segregate genders for those that require it... It’s not rocket science.

 

[JAMSisExcitement]

So.. this is a personal experience, but I have never been made to do this. The shirts we use in OMM have the whole back cut all the way down the back. I have friends that are also uncomfortable with having their shirts off or wearing short shorts, and they have never been forced to do anything that they weren't comfortable with.. but you will have to be comfortable with doing OMM on males and females because they represent your future patients.

I am perfectly comfortable touching men. I am completely uncomfortable with them touching me. This isn’t something I’ll get over or something I’m being silly about... This is PTSD. Osteopathic schools need to make accommodations for women (and men) who fall in these categories and/or have physical deformities, religious prohibitions, etc. I mean, how has no one been sued over this yet?

 

[adrenocorticotropicana]

I have PTSD but I hate bras because I have autism. I’m also trans (but pass as AFAB). Can female students choose not to wear a bra? It seems patently unfair that men have the right not to wear them and female students are obligated to.

 

[adrenocorticotropicana]

(I would also like to point out that not all survivors of sexual assault are women or identify as women, and span both AFAB and AMAB individuals.)

 

[Chibucks15]

No one has had to be shirtless in my class and I'm into my second year. Anything past that, talk to your respective schools and I'm sure they'll try to make accommodations as they can, they aren't out to inflict harm on you. As for @adrenocorticotropicana the situations that you bring up are so far in the minority that there are definitely not rules in place for it at the vast majority of places. It all comes down to talking to your respective schools about it with issues and moving forward from there. My school offers the choice to have body doubles for certain areas of the body if you have medical history or whatever, so I'm sure if you talk to them about it and work with them they will help out as they can.

 

[Goro]

Saying that I “can’t play by the rules” is incredibly dismissive of my trauma. It’s not that I don’t want to touch men — it’s that I can’t have men touching *me*. I realize, of course, that as a future doctor I will have men patients, but as a survivor of trauma I continuously arrange my medical life so that I do not have to suffer PTSD... Which is what would happen if I were forced to endure men — not to mention first-year students... Not trained physicians! — touching my half-naked body. I would not get over it; I would not get used to it. It’s extremely sad that someone interested in the osteopathic philosophy should be admonished and told to pursue an alternative pathway merely because MD faculty might actually give a hoot about the autonomy of women’s bodies and our right to say NO. So long as there’re some women willing to be touched by men students, I don’t see how my extenuating circumstance will ruins my classmates’ education. I think this is awfully silly, and possibly illegal. And I’m guessing you’d take my concerns more seriously if they were religious instead of psychiatric. It is absurd that in 2018 you are unsympathetic to the notion of women’s-only spaces... If you really wanted victims of sexual violence, religious chastity, etc., to learn to be physicians, you’d manage to segregate genders for those that require it... It’s not rocket science.

*sigh*
Where's @atomi now that I need him?

Did you not read what I wrote about technical standards?

I strongly suspect that you'd be accommodated, provided you actually made it into med school. Look, medical school is a furnace, and I've seen it break even healthy students. The #1 reason my school loses students to withdrawal, dismissal or LOA is to unresolved mental health issues. Hence, if an anonymous internet message board triggers you like this, then I can't recommend this particular pathway. Not a lawyer, but there is no inherent right to go to medical school.

 

[Goro]

I have PTSD but I hate bras because I have autism. I’m also trans (but pass as AFAB). Can female students choose not to wear a bra? It seems patently unfair that men have the right not to wear them and female students are obligated to.

What's the alternative? That my female students be bare breasted? I'm pretty sure my male students go shirtless in OMM/OMT lab.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

My NMM colleagues handle OMM dress on an individual basis. Usually this has been due to religious or medical issues. I am unaware of anyone not being able to reach an acceptable accomodation. Face it, you have to inspect and examine a patient. To examine a knee or shoulder, you must be able to inspect and examine said joint. Refusing to allow another student to examine you does impact on their education, IMO, a lost opportunity to examine and learn. Most people are self conscious and uncomfortable in OM attire. Trust me, this wont be the first time you will be uncomfortable in your medical career. You better find how to deal with being uncomfortable, otherwise you may have made a poor career decision.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I hope OP is just a troll and not one of these mentally ill women out there that I'm sure will come out with some rape accusation in 30 years. If having this bra thing is what keeps people like that from entering the profession, I hope they keep this rule forever

 

[adrenocorticotropicana]

What's the alternative? That my female students be bare breasted? I'm pretty sure my male students go shirtless in OMM/OMT lab.

Well, they should have a choice to do so. Denying that choice would be repressive and a violation of various federal and/or state laws.

 

[Goro]

Well, they should have a choice to do so. Denying that choice would be repressive and a violation of various federal and/or state laws.

You didn't answer my question.

Stop with the "I know my rights!!!" crap already.

I can think of some great interview questions from your line of thinking, at least.

 

[adrenocorticotropicana]

I answered the question: they should have right to have the option to do so. This is in turn supported by different state and federal gender discrimination laws.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Well, they should have a choice to do so. Denying that choice would be repressive and a violation of various federal and/or state laws.

You have the right to not attend these schools. Accomodations need to exist for legitimate things such as disability or religion, but it's entirely wrong to expect to society to bend to how every snowflake wishes the world to be for them. If you're not adult enough to function in the real world and accept you can't have it all because you just want it, you should not be in any way involved in patient care

 

[adrenocorticotropicana]

What? Why should I have to wear a bra when men don't? See New York Human Rights Law, Fourteenth Amendment, etc. See THE PEOPLE &C., RESPONDENT, v. RAMONA SANTORELLI AND MARY LOU SCHLOSS, APPELLANTS, ET AL., DEFENDANTS.

 

[adrenocorticotropicana]

Autism is a legitimate medical condition, it's hardly a "snowflake" issue.

 

[_Rod_of_Asclepius_]

Honestly go to a school without OMM. These schools are not going to bend over backwards for things like this nor should they. This has never been a problem and it shouldn’t be one now. The universe doesn’t work that way.

 

[JAMSisExcitement]

I have PTSD but I hate bras because I have autism. I’m also trans (but pass as AFAB). Can female students choose not to wear a bra? It seems patently unfair that men have the right not to wear them and female students are obligated to.

Absolutely. Many of us have histories of trauma and no one should be forced to be half-naked in front of their entire class (of mostly 21-year-olds). This isn’t nude-modeling school. And if someone’s transitioning and has scars, etc., s/he/them should have every damn right to modesty.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I answered the question: they should have right to have the option to do so. This is in turn supported by different state and federal gender discrimination laws.

What? Why should I have to wear a bra when men don't? See New York Human Rights Law, Fourteenth Amendment, etc. See THE PEOPLE &C., RESPONDENT, v. RAMONA SANTORELLI AND MARY LOU SCHLOSS, APPELLANTS, ET AL., DEFENDANTS.

Autism is a legitimate medical condition, it's hardly a "snowflake" issue.

You have significant issues, and none of them involve your autism.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Absolutely. Many of us have histories of trauma and no one should be forced to be half-naked in front of their entire class (of mostly 21-year-olds). This isn’t nude-modeling school. And if someone’s transitioning and has scars, etc., s/he/them should have every damn right to modesty.

No school will force you to be topless. However, with how you have talked about your trauma and how it currently affects you to the level you have described I do think you would make it through medical training at the moment.

 

[JAMSisExcitement]

*sigh*
Where's @atomi now that I need him?

Did you not read what I wrote about technical standards?

I strongly suspect that you'd be accommodated, provided you actually made it into med school. Look, medical school is a furnace, and I've seen it break even healthy students. The #1 reason my school loses students to withdrawal, dismissal or LOA is to unresolved mental health issues. Hence, if an anonymous internet message board triggers you like this, then I can't recommend this particular pathway. Not a lawyer, but there is no inherent right to go to medical school.

Oh crap, you’re right. I’ve worked my butt off for years, volunteered, worked in a lab, murdered the MCAT... But since my childhood trauma makes you uncomfortable, I should probably choose another profession. Thanks so much for the advice!

Also not a lawyer, but I’m fairly certain that, short of nude-modeling school, there’s an inherent right to feel safe and reasonably accommodated in an educational/professional environment. I’m not asking to be excused from participation in OMM lab — I’m asking to have my circumstances, like, mildly accommodated.

 

[adrenocorticotropicana]

As a queer woman, I find it weird that men would be allowed to go bare-chested but I could not.

You have significant issues, and none of them involve your autism.

My issue is asserting gender equality and the right to dress like a man? Nice.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

What? Why should I have to wear a bra when men don't? See New York Human Rights Law, Fourteenth Amendment, etc. See THE PEOPLE &C., RESPONDENT, v. RAMONA SANTORELLI AND MARY LOU SCHLOSS, APPELLANTS, ET AL., DEFENDANTS.

Perfect, don't wear a bra either so you can be like a man

You might think you're smart because you're quoting some court case, but it only takes half a second to realize a case of a public park is not the same as a case of medical training, especially at private colleges. If I spend another half second, I bet I could find more reasons why your post is nonsense

 

[JAMSisExcitement]

No school will force you to be topless. However, with how you have talked about your trauma and how it currently affects you to the level you have described I do think you would make it through medical training at the moment.

Well I just spoke (anonymously) to the Dean of OMM at my top-choice and she directed me to their creepy I-swear-I’ll-be-naked waiver and told me in no uncertain terms that, since their founding a decade ago, there have been *zero* instances of students receiving accommodations for *any* reason — including religious prohibitions on immodesty. So maybe your school/faculty is kinder and gentler, but this OMM dean was *not*.

 

[adrenocorticotropicana]

Perfect, don't wear a bra either so you can be like a man

You might think you're smart because you're quoting some court case, but it only takes half a second to realize a case of a public park is not the same as a case of medical training, especially at private colleges. If I spend another half second, I bet I could find more reasons why your post is nonsense

You are arguing that the rules are different male and female medical students and physicians, and it’s just to treat them unequally and give them unequal rights.

 

[Goro]

Oh crap, you’re right. I’ve worked my butt off for years, volunteered, worked in a lab, murdered the MCAT... But since my childhood trauma makes you uncomfortable, I should probably choose another profession. Thanks so much for the advice!

Also not a lawyer, but I’m fairly certain that, short of nude-modeling school, there’s an inherent right to feel safe and reasonably accommodated in an educational/professional environment. I’m not asking to be excused from participation in OMM lab — I’m asking to have my circumstances, like, mildly accommodated.

Having just talked to some DO colleagues, I'd say that you'd probably be handlily given a female OMM partner. Clinical Medicine lab? Maybe not. Private room with no males? No way.

Your classmates' right to an education aren't necessarily trumped by your issues. But, in the end, it ultimately depends upons what's in place in the University's accommodation policies. You do have a right to feel safe reasonably accommodated...no one is arguing that. The key thing will be what's the school's definition of "reasonably."

Uncomfortable? Me? hell, no, I'm from NY, where we use the term "F you" as a greeting. I'm the father of a daughter and so am very sympathetic to your plight.

I've never heard of any DO school where students and to be naked..as in like, naked, or even females had to be topless. I suggest that when drawing up your school list, you enquire in each school-specific thread to find out exactly what the policies are...or even email the relevant Dep't Chairs.

 

[Stagg737]

At my alma mater we always just wore t-shirts/workout clothing. Never had to go shirtless for guys or girls, so those schools certainly exist. Asking to only have a female partner is a reasonable accommodation imo. The shirtless thing will be more of a technical standards issue which will vary between schools. If it's an issue for you then you'll just have to do your homework before applying.

Saying that I “can’t play by the rules” is incredibly dismissive of my trauma. It’s not that I don’t want to touch men — it’s that I can’t have men touching *me*. I realize, of course, that as a future doctor I will have men patients, but as a survivor of trauma I continuously arrange my medical life so that I do not have to suffer PTSD... Which is what would happen if I were forced to endure men — not to mention first-year students... Not trained physicians! — touching my half-naked body. I would not get over it; I would not get used to it. It’s extremely sad that someone interested in the osteopathic philosophy should be admonished and told to pursue an alternative pathway merely because MD faculty might actually give a hoot about the autonomy of women’s bodies and our right to say NO. So long as there’re some women willing to be touched by men students, I don’t see how my extenuating circumstance will ruins my classmates’ education. I think this is awfully silly, and possibly illegal. And I’m guessing you’d take my concerns more seriously if they were religious instead of psychiatric. It is absurd that in 2018 you are unsympathetic to the notion of women’s-only spaces... If you really wanted victims of sexual violence, religious chastity, etc., to learn to be physicians, you’d manage to segregate genders for those that require it... It’s not rocket science.

This has less to do with some bias against women and more to do with strict technical guidelines than you're making it out to be. Is it probably pretty crappy? Sure, but guess what? So are many policies in medicine and medical school and they won't be changing. I'm not saying you should have to deal with it or that it's right. I'm just pointing out that if you pursue medicine you will deal with these types of policies whether you want to or not.

One thing I will point out is that I think it's a bit absurd that you expect to have "women's only spaces" as an accommodation. It is akin to the "separate but equal" mindset which many individuals have fought so hard against for generations. While I understand that your past trauma warrants some accommodations, the expectation of those accommodations must be reasonable, and total segregation is not reasonable. Before anyone responds with accusations I'll add I think "men's only" or "X-type of person only" spaces are also unreasonable and frankly unethical.

 

[adrenocorticotropicana]

I just observed an OMM class where the females were in bras and men were bare-chested.

 

[Stagg737]

I just observed an OMM class where the females were in bras and men were bare-chested.

This will vary significantly from school to school and you will have to contact the school or students to find out about their individual policies.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

My issue is asserting gender equality and the right to dress like a man? Nice.

No. Your issue is that in thread after thread you have shown to have an extremely warped thinking process. Again, come to the SPF if you really want to have a discussion on “rights.”

Well I just spoke (anonymously) to the Dean of OMM at my top-choice and she directed me to their creepy I-swear-I’ll-be-naked waiver and told me in no uncertain terms that, since their founding a decade ago, there have been *zero* instances of students receiving accommodations for *any* reason — including religious prohibitions on immodesty. So maybe your school/faculty is kinder and gentler, but this OMM dean was *not*.

Guess what. You don’t have to apply there.

I'm not saying you should have to deal with it or that it's right. I'm just pointing out that if you pursue medicine you will deal with these types of policies whether you want to or not.

This. OP whether you like it or not (regardless of whether or not it’s right or not) you will have to do lots of things you aren’t comfortable doing. I’m not just talking OMM lab. What happens when you are practicing abdominal exams and you have to pretend to be the patient while a male student performs one on you? I’m not trying to minimize your trauma, but with how you are describing how much it still affects you I don’t think you would make it through medical training. To do so you would have to do things that make you uncomfortable.

I just observed an OMM class where the females were in bras and men were bare-chested.

I suggest you get over it quickly. You will never win against a school arguing that women should be able to be bare chested in OMM lol.

 

[DokterMom]

I am perfectly comfortable touching men. I am completely uncomfortable with them touching me. This isn’t something I’ll get over or something I’m being silly about... This is PTSD. Osteopathic schools need to make accommodations for women (and men) who fall in these categories and/or have physical deformities, religious prohibitions, etc. I mean, how has no one been sued over this yet?

Absolutely. Many of us have histories of trauma and no one should be forced to be half-naked in front of their entire class (of mostly 21-year-olds). This isn’t nude-modeling school. And if someone’s transitioning and has scars, etc., s/he/them should have every damn right to modesty.

While I'm sympathetic to your trauma, I do have to agree with the general sentiment that medical school is a furnace and that your mental health may need to be a bit more robust to make it through successfully. Working on that will help you in many areas of life, not to mention plain old personal happiness and professional comfort. Keep the empathy; lose the fragility.

As to physical deformities -- This is medical school. Injuries, malformations, irregularities and outliers are part of life and need to be something you and your classmates learn to face without squeamishness. Learn to see the person, not the disability and demand that your classmates do the same.

I have PTSD but I hate bras because I have autism. I’m also trans (but pass as AFAB). Can female students choose not to wear a bra? It seems patently unfair that men have the right not to wear them and female students are obligated to.

A person who presents as female and who has substantial breast tissue, would be well-advised to wear a bra (or similar supportive garment) for reasons of professionalism and visual comfort of others. Look for a garment you can tolerate wearing, and know that not all bras have underwires and straps.

I hope OP is just a troll and not one of these mentally ill women out there that I'm sure will come out with some rape accusation in 30 years. If having this bra thing is what keeps people like that from entering the profession, I hope they keep this rule forever

"one of these mentally ill women out there I'm sure will come out with some rape accusation in 30 years" ?

Really ugly sentiment that disparages people on the spectrum, the mentally ill, and survivors of sexual assault. Really ugly.

 

[adrenocorticotropicana]

No. Your issue is that in thread after thread you have shown to have an extremely warped thinking process. Again, come to the SPF if you really want to have a discussion on “rights.”

What you are saying, I believe, is that patriarchial norms and cisheteronormativity should not be questioned in medical school, and this is something that women and sexual minorities should just shut up, stop challenging and censor themselves on, even if these norms have no biological or medical basis. My failure to accept this reality is just my warped snowflakeness.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Uncomfortable? Me? hell, no, I'm from NY, where we use the term "F you" as a greeting.

You just made me spit out my water! LOL. Spoken like a New Yorker

 

[adrenocorticotropicana]

A person who presents as female and who has substantial breast tissue, would be well-advised to wear a bra (or similar supportive garment) for reasons of professionalism and visual comfort of others. Look for a garment you can tolerate wearing, and know that not all bras have underwires and straps.

Thanks for directly addressing my concern. I observed at least one queer-presenting female student who seemed to be subverting this gender norm. Are wireless bralettes with very little or no support acceptable? (They're definitely much more comfortable.)

 

[NicMouse64]

What you are saying, I believe, is that patriarchial norms and cisheteronormativity should not be questioned in medical school, and this is something that women and sexual minorities should just shut up, stop challenging and censor themselves on, even if these norms have no biological or medical basis. My failure to accept this reality is just my warped snowflakeness.

:troll:

 

[QueenOfJunkertown5]

I am considering applying DO because I like the osteopathic philosophy. I would like to know DO students’ impressions of OMM lab, however, and the accommodations made for students who are unwilling to appear in a bra in a co-ed environment — e.g., for religious reasons, psychiatric reasons, past trauma (e.g., sexual assault), physical deformities, and just plain modesty. I don’t need an explanation about the importance of participation (I’ve heard it, I get it, and there’s no reason we can’t “manipulate” our same-sex classmates), nor assurances that “We’re all professionals” (sorry, AOA, but first-year DO students straight outta college are *not* “all professionals”). I am fine — not happy, but fine — to be “manipulated” by fellow women students, in women’s-only spaces, but I cannot and will not be in a bra in front of classmates/instructors who are men. I don’t think I should have to, nor do I think anyone else should have to. Having our traumas outed is horrifying enough, but I will legitimately have a panic attack if I’m expected to be touched topless by a man — however noble the intention.

I am asking about this because I have heard anecdotally that certain DO schools are *not* accommodating when it comes to their less-than-willing OMM participants. Can anyone speak to this? Is it different school-to-school, or are the guidelines established by the AOA? If anyone has personal stories they’d like to share one-on-one, please PM me.

Does this trouble anyone? Have lawsuits ever been filed? What about religious freedoms and respect for headscarves, etc.

OP, I empathize strongly. But, I also empathize with the practical, scientific side.

What if you had a traditional muslim male who is uncomfortable with seeing women in bras? Or manipulating women? Or the fact that Islam prohibits the mere observation of a woman who is exposed? Or the fact that Islamic women and men can't even shake hands? What happens now? What kinds of accommodations can the muslim student have?

(I'm not saying I'm a Muslim male. I'm a muslim woman, but I'm trying to make a point).

 

[QueenOfJunkertown5]

Saying that I “can’t play by the rules” is incredibly dismissive of my trauma. It’s not that I don’t want to touch men — it’s that I can’t have men touching *me*. I realize, of course, that as a future doctor I will have men patients, but as a survivor of trauma I continuously arrange my medical life so that I do not have to suffer PTSD... Which is what would happen if I were forced to endure men — not to mention first-year students... Not trained physicians! — touching my half-naked body. I would not get over it; I would not get used to it. It’s extremely sad that someone interested in the osteopathic philosophy should be admonished and told to pursue an alternative pathway merely because MD faculty might actually give a hoot about the autonomy of women’s bodies and our right to say NO. So long as there’re some women willing to be touched by men students, I don’t see how my extenuating circumstance will ruins my classmates’ education. I think this is awfully silly, and possibly illegal. And I’m guessing you’d take my concerns more seriously if they were religious instead of psychiatric. It is absurd that in 2018 you are unsympathetic to the notion of women’s-only spaces... If you really wanted victims of sexual violence, religious chastity, etc., to learn to be physicians, you’d manage to segregate genders for those that require it... It’s not rocket science.

It is absurd that in 2018, you are unsympathetic to the notion of men's-only spaces.

You seem to advocate for women's only spaces, but not men's only spaces. Especially if men can share the same traumas you do.

I don't understand why women are central to your argument. Men have those same issues you do and many men have experienced sexual assault:

The Sexual Victimization of Men in America: New Data Challenge Old Assumptions

(I suggest you read this article completely, because the sexual victimization of men has been grossly ignored and still is to this day)

I only ask that you stop the gynocentric focus and instead focus on sexual assault survivors, not just women sexual assault survivors. In fact, the title of this thread is "women's issues" that singled women out and forgot to mention the other nearly half of the population who have the same (if not, worse) issues (as evidenced by the study above).

 

[Stagg737]

Thanks for directly addressing my concern. I observed at least one queer-presenting female student who seemed to be subverting this gender norm. Are wireless bralettes with very little or no support acceptable? (They're definitely much more comfortable.)

Of course? I personally don't care if the women want to go braless or even expose their breasts in OMM lab, however I'm pretty sure the other women in those labs would be just as uncomfortable (sometimes more uncomfortable) seeing their classmates walk around with breasts hanging out as the men would be. So not really a patriarchal issue so much as you being uncomfortable with the current generally accepted societal norms.

 

[Goro]

OP, I empathize strongly.

What if you had a traditional muslim male who is uncomfortable with seeing women in bras? Or manipulating women? Or the fact that Islam prohibits the mere observation of a woman who is exposed? Or the fact that Islamic women and men can't even shake hands? What happens now? What kinds of accommodations can the muslim student have?

(I'm not saying I'm a Muslim male. I'm a muslim woman, but I'm trying to make a point).

@Goro

This would make for an interesting but probably inflammatory interview question (unless we avoid labels...or we call the student "Mike Pence").

This particular student would either not be accepted, or would be dismissed. He can't refuse to see and treat female patients. Period. BTW, medical students have to learn and do breast and vaginal exams (and female students need to learn how to do prostate exams as well.)

I've had female Muslim students in hijab...they have female OMM partners. I don't know offhand how they had to dress in the lab, but probably some accommodation was reached. But accommodations only can go so far. Again, we have standards our students have to be competent at.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

OP, I empathize strongly.

What if you had a traditional muslim male who is uncomfortable with seeing women in bras? Or manipulating women? Or the fact that Islam prohibits the mere observation of a woman who is exposed? Or the fact that Islamic women and men can't even shake hands? What happens now? What kinds of accommodations can the muslim student have?

(I'm not saying I'm a Muslim male. I'm a muslim woman, but I'm trying to make a point).

@Goro

Talk to the Head of OMM and your Imam to see if accommodations can be worked out. I have heard of students wearing clothing approved by their Imam and have permission to be examined by same sex students. As stated above, this varies from school to school, and possibly Imam to Imam. I personally have never heard of a case where reasonable accomadation cant be worked out. Good luck and best wishes

 

[QueenOfJunkertown5]

Talk to the Head of OMM and your Imam to see if accommodations can be worked out. I have heard of students wearing clothing approved by their Imam and have permission to be examined by same sex students. As stated above, this varies from school to school, and possibly Imam to Imam. I personally have never heard of a case where reasonable accomadation cant be worked out. Good luck and best wishes

I agree! The point I'm making is that we shouldn't make "muslim only spaces" and just make accomodations on a case-by-case basis. The center for disability should cover this if there are past traumas.

 

[Goro]

I agree! The point I'm making is that we shouldn't make "muslim only spaces" and just make accomodations on a case-by-case basis. The center for disability should cover this if there are past traumas.

I have yet to hear of any school that has a X only space where lab exams are concerned. Again, schools will always try to accommodate students within reason. I've heard of medical students of the Cohanim, who are no allowed to touch a dead body. You'd think this might be an issue in Anatomy lab..but they were accommodated by their school and so didn't have to do an actual dissection, and still did fine in the course. Might have been at one of the Touros.

 

[JAMSisExcitement]

You have significant issues, and none of them involve your autism.

Ummmmmm are you a health professional? I suppose you’re banking on the whole “compassion” thing being *learned* in the process of your education?

Just so there’s no ambiguity, you have been reported.