Work Hard, Work Hard, No interest in playing.

[cs24]

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I understand this line of thinking, and I'm sure I've been guilty of it at times. But for most of my life, my philosophy has just been to work very hard and enjoy the fruits of my labor. It's not that I'm getting an ego boost out of accomplishing things, it's just that I believe I should excel as much as possible and all parties involved will benefit.

Some people spend a huge amount of time on hobbies, which brings their own set of egotistical rewards. You appear balanced, "cool", athletic, or talented to other people when you excel at a hobby. For me, hobbies are great but I'd rather accomplish great things and/or contribute to my field than be the strongest guy in the gym or best golfer or whatever.

I guess I just take a hyper-rational approach to my free time, and choose to spend it on what will yield the greatest reward for me and my family, at risk of appearing less "balanced" to most. But as long as I can relate to my patients and friends, I don't personally see it as a problem. I have no existential stake in working extremely hard, it's just how I prefer to go about things. But again, I'm fortunate to have a spouse that supports and values this type of work ethic, so it may not be the same for everyone.

People who are very into their hobbies likely aren't doing it for the ego boost either. People pursuing difficult activities for the wrong reasons are not likely to continue doing them very long. I pursue my hobbies because I enjoy them, they keep me mentally and physically healthy, and I find that I work more efficiently and get more done when I take the time for them than if I had stayed at the bench all day.

 

[DermViser]

• I have one MD/PhD buddy who is like me, and I'm sure there are a couple of kids in my class like me (haven't talked intimately with everyone).
• Everyone seems to want the white picket fence, watch their son's soccer game, BBQ on Saturday kind of life. Am I odd for not caring about this?
• Don't get me wrong, I want a wife, kids, maybe a decent house with a yard...but does the want for this come close to my want to be an academic surgeon -- absolutely not.
• If I want to do any basic science research worth a damn, and have peak surgical skills, you bet your ass I'll be working 80+ hours a week.
• Am I naive enough to say my emotional standpoint on the topic won't change throughout the next few years, particularly once I have kids? No.
• But goals are goals and I am setting up my career based on what I feel now. I am mentored by a neurosurgeon-scientist who regularly pushes 100 hours a weeks. He's a beast, walks tall, and is high on life. Not the happiest- go lucky type of guy, but his ego fuels his beast work. Married too, has kids, doesn't talk about them much. But he likes it.
• For me, I can't imagine even enjoying free time if I had it every single weekend. I'm not trolling, this is me. I know others just like me.
• I am uptight, study a ton, enjoy being busy, if I'm not stressed about work I feel guilty because I'm wasting time doing things that aren't benefitting anyone but myself.
• People tell me to calm down, and I don't see why.
• I guess my reason for this post is to pose a question. I'm not looking for someone to tell me why my mentality is bad, I am just curious how others rationalize the particular work/play ratio they've established as "acceptable" in their practice.
• I know how mine will be, I know why I want the balance that I want - 96 work/4 play.
• So enlighten me on what your balance of work/play is, and why you don't bug out by not doing more, or even, why do you work so much and not play at all (maybe your justification is different than mine)?

 

[KinasePro]

People who are very into their hobbies likely aren't doing it for the ego boost either. People pursuing difficult activities for the wrong reasons are not likely to continue doing them very long. I pursue my hobbies because I enjoy them, they keep me mentally and physically healthy, and I find that I work more efficiently and get more done when I take the time for them than if I had stayed at the bench all day.

Oh, cmon. See how far you can make it across a whole foods parking lot before seeing a "26.2" bumper sticker.

I'm just trying to say that the egotistical argument in particular goes both ways.

 

[BurghStudent]

OP, I've seen neurosurgeons work 100 hrs/week completing a ridiculous number of surgeries, neurosurgeons work 60 hrs/week in private practice focusing on spine, and neurosurgeons work 80 hrs/week doing surgery/research with time for a wife and kids.

It all depends on how you manage time and what your priorities are. It seems to me you've already figured out who you are, or at least, want to be.

 

[Kahreek]

you'll burnout in 5 years time.
You'll have to realize that you cant be brilliant in all fields.

 

[Kahreek]

I would say doing surgery and research is pretty easy, as most surgical programs, and even outside of it, offer some kind of research opportunities, if you really want to do it that is.
Just don't believe that doors will open magically with that md/phd degree in hand, and you will be a different person in the end.

Accept the fact, that ones lifetime researches might mean nothing in the long run of universe things, specially if you are not able to do the research the way you want.
There is nothing worse than doing scut work for big pharma, to see if the newly methylated molecule is 1% better, compared to standard treatment, and ignoring every other aspects.
Sometimes being a better doctor alone, cross referencing big literature, observing, can give rise to huge ideas. I think all doctors should have some kind of research mindset in their work.

 

[Promethean]

There is nothing wrong with focusing on what matters to you.

If, later, you decide something else matters to you, you can do something about it. Family doesn't always mean a wife you married and had kids with when you were still in school/residency. Maybe you will meet another professional who also works as hard as you and enjoys spending that 4% of her time with you without the imposition of kids. Maybe you will work like a fiend for 20 years and then slack off to start having babies with your mail order bride. Maybe you will adopt. Maybe you will decide that the research that you do is your contribution to the future of the species, and that helping kids that are already here is better than producing a crop of them yourself.

Your path doesn't have to match anyone else's script. The less time you spend trying to live up to other people's expectations for what you should want and how you should conduct yourself, the more joy you will have in life.

I know some physician scientists who resent their wives and children for distracting them from the lab. It would be kinder to everyone concerned not to create that situation just because some people think that your life isn't complete without their definition of a family in it.

 

[Mad Jack]

you'll burnout in 5 years time.
You'll have to realize that you cant be brilliant in all fields.

Maybe you can't. There are people capable of what OP speaks. I ain't one of them, but maybe he's one, who knows. If everyone discourages him, he'll never find out what he's capable of.

Most people though, most people on his path eventually crash and burn.

 

[PL198]

Oh, cmon. See how far you can make it across a whole foods parking lot before seeing a "26.2" bumper sticker.

I'm just trying to say that the egotistical argument in particular goes both ways.

The average person that has a 26.2 sticker on their car isn't a serious marathon runner. The best at their craft generally don't go around showing it off, usually those are the people that suck.

 

[Kangal]

.

 

[KinasePro]

The average person that has a 26.2 sticker on their car isn't a serious marathon runner. The best at their craft generally don't go around showing it off, usually those are the people that suck.

So what you're saying is, regardless of their actual skill, people still use these marathon stickers to boost their perceived skill/athleticism in the eyes of others? That's exactly my point. In this case, that hobby is probably more egotistical than OP working hard to get another publication to impress boss/gf/classmates/family. At least OP is contributing to a greater body of work and, in a way, giving back to the academic community.

 

[Mad Jack]

If anyone wonders why I have time to be on SDN, it's because HE staining, westerns, and PCR all provide ample down time. A bunch of mouse slides, 9 cell samples. 3 sets of primers (one with 3, and 2 with two). I can't imagine "crashing and burning", maybe if I hated everything I was doing, I'd explode at some point. But I don't. Don't get me wrong. I get stressed. But I never feel like I rather be doing something else (ok, sometimes I rather be sleeping or eating, or doing what men and women do when the lights go off - I have a sweet pillow top mattress that I paid a premium for that is sincerely under utilized in that department), but never do I feel like I rather switch to a less stressful lifestyle. I can't predict the future, I'm not going to say "theres no way I could burn out". That would be naive. But I don't see it coming any time soon.



Yesterday someone was talking to me about neurosurgery. We are at different stages in our medical careers, he's not dual degree so temporally we aren't competing for the same residency spots. He wasn't crazy gung-ho. He's in his 3rd year and hasn't worked to pump out clinical journals. I told him that he should be making face time with the nsurg department. That he should ask for menial task such as data entry and paper editing to hopefully get a one or two clinical pubs...I felt like I was taking the high road by helping a peer. Avoiding the egocentric ass of a person that I don't want to be. And then immediately after I told him, I felt this sense of guilt and stupidity. because any data that he works with is data that I'm not working with. I am still conflicted man. I don't mind living the life of pursing the hardest thing I can possibly do, I actually want this sincerely. I want to bust ass. I want to go to sleep saying, "damn today was rough" sleep 5 hours, wake up and say "damn, today is going to be rough". Thats my goal MO. But I'd truly like to shed the egotistical ass hole malicious side of me. I can have an ego, I have a big one, I like it. My ego coupled with caffeine makes me feel amazing. But having an ego and being a malicious ass are different things, and I want to shed the latter.

I wasn't implying you would fail. Just that most do. But some people succeed as well, and do pretty great things in the process. If we discourage every crazy kid that wants to be a super research surgeon, we'll save 19 kids from a pretty awful life, sure. But we might also lose that one guy who actually pulls it off and changes the world.

 

[PL198]

So what you're saying is, regardless of their actual skill, people still use these marathon stickers to boost their perceived skill/athleticism in the eyes of others? That's exactly my point. In this case, that hobby is probably more egotistical than OP working hard to get another publication to impress boss/gf/classmates/family. At least OP is contributing to a greater body of work and, in a way, giving back to the academic community.

yes, but that person isn't actually that interested in marathon running. you're trying to make the connection that pursuing a hobby is for the reputation. for people actually interested in the hobby, it's not. Someone that wants to be cool runs a marathon and puts a sticker on their car. Someone that wants to get good at marathons, doesn't, don't put it in your face, etc etc. There's two groups of people and I'm not sure how you're representing them both and saying that pursuing hobbies isn't worthwhile. Also "giving back" is largely a joke and been seen numerous times to be way more about the reputation gain than actual benefit to society. See any person that goes on a missions trip, makes it their FB status, etc etc. The people that do this stuff to actually do it, you have no idea they do it.

 

[KinasePro]

yes, but that person isn't actually that interested in marathon running. you're trying to make the connection that pursuing a hobby is for the reputation. for people actually interested in the hobby, it's not. Someone that wants to be cool runs a marathon and puts a sticker on their car. Someone that wants to get good at marathons, doesn't, don't put it in your face, etc etc. There's two groups of people and I'm not sure how you're representing them both and saying that pursuing hobbies isn't worthwhile. Also "giving back" is largely a joke and been seen numerous times to be way more about the reputation gain than actual benefit to society. See any person that goes on a missions trip, makes it their FB status, etc etc. The people that do this stuff to actually do it, you have no idea they do it.

I'm not trying to say excelling at hobbies is ONLY about the reputation and ego boost, but you can't separate the two entirely. Even serious runners who don't put the 26.2 sticker on their car let others know of their dedication in other ways. Of the weekend warriors/runners/golfers/powerlifters/etc that I know, none of them attempt to conceal their successes in anyway. In fact, the hobby becomes a large part of their identity, and their successes are celebrated by them and their friends. And rightly so, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but IMO it's impossible to deny the superficial benefits these hobbies have on their lives/egos/personas.

Note that you could take that whole paragraph and exchange the "hobby" words for "research" words, and it would still be valid. I'm just trying to point out that there's nothing intrinsically less egotistical about dedicating significant time to hobbies.

 

[PL198]

I'm not trying to say excelling at hobbies is ONLY about the reputation and ego boost, but you can't separate the two entirely. Even serious runners who don't put the 26.2 sticker on their car let others know of their dedication in other ways. Of the weekend warriors/runners/golfers/powerlifters/etc that I know, none of them attempt to conceal their successes in anyway. In fact, the hobby becomes a large part of their identity, and their successes are celebrated by them and their friends. And rightly so, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but IMO it's impossible to deny the superficial benefits these hobbies have on their lives/egos/personas.

Note that you could take that whole paragraph and exchange the "hobby" words for "research" words, and it would still be valid. I'm just trying to point out that there's nothing intrinsically less egotistical about dedicating significant time to hobbies.

Definitely agree 100 % I'd say personally I consider the superficial to be an extremely small part of my motivation. When I lifted at a gym and had knee sleeves on, people would look at me like I was nuts.

 

[KinasePro]

Definitely agree 100 % I'd say personally I consider the superficial to be an extremely small part of my motivation. When I lifted at a gym and had knee sleeves on, people would look at me like I was nuts.

tfw people are staring bc the bar is slightly bending during a beastly deadlift

 

[Kangal]

.

 

[Mad Jack]

The number one thing for you is prestige. Once you realize being a doctor or a surgeon no longer has the prestige it did 20 years ago and that you're working yourself to death for no reason, while the financiers have all the money and the prestige being the 0.01% you'll change your mentality. You just need to experience the world, and I guarantee you, your prioritize will change.

Actually doesn't sound like this kid is very interested in prestige- he sounds like the type who enjoys work for the sake of work. A legit workaholic.

 

[Kangal]

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[DermViser]

Actually doesn't sound like this kid is very interested in prestige- he sounds like the type who enjoys work for the sake of work. A legit workaholic.

I'd say what I really think he's being, but that would get me banned.

 

[Kangal]

.

 

[Mad Jack]

Hmmm...because there's no way someone who is putting 14 years of his life into training in a very specific field is actually interested in that field. But c'mon, who are we kidding, its prestigious enough to get women, that's the only reason why anyone tries to be a surg-sci....

Oh wait, I missed this. Nevermind, he's a fool. Wow. Just wow. Dude, it doesn't work that way. And here I was thinking you were in it for the love of the field

Yeah, you might land a gold digger wife you'll get sloppy seconds off when she's done with her boyfriend on Friday night. But it's really hard to keep an attractive and loyal woman around with that kind of lifestyle. Enjoy the alimony and child support though, especially if you're living in the Northeast 😆

Oh wow, is this kid in for a wake up call...

 

[KinasePro]

LOL, I think you're pretty insecure and lonely. Unless you change your perspective on life, you will remain that way, and no, you will not be granted a hot loyal wife to mother your children.

Have you never met a department chair with a happy family before? You make it sound like the concept of a hard working academic with a happy family is a ground-breaking, revolutionary concept. I can think of 3 department chairs at my institution alone that defy your melodrama, and I'm only a measly M4.

EDIT: Ahh, I see. You're a newly minted rad onc attending.

ITT: ROAD residents/attendings having their minds blown by someone who doesn't value the 40 hr work week above all else.

 

[DermViser]

.

👍

 

[Mad Jack]

👍

Read it again 😉

 

[DermViser]

Oh wait, I missed this. Nevermind, he's a fool. Wow. Just wow. Dude, it doesn't work that way. And here I was thinking you were in it for the love of the field

Yeah, you might land a gold digger wife you'll get sloppy seconds off when she's done with her boyfriend on Friday night. But it's really hard to keep an attractive and loyal woman around with that kind of lifestyle. Enjoy the alimony and child support though, especially if you're living in the Northeast 😆

Oh wow, is this kid in for a wake up call...

Ok, so I completely lost it after sloppy seconds 😆

 

[KinasePro]

You'll grow up and learn that today's medicine is different from the medicine that the Chairs you mentioned were in. In that era medicine was prestigious, it sadly no longer is.

True medicine has changed, but the chairs are still practicing in the current environment. They may be viewed differently by lay people, but they still achieved their personal and professional goals without being a forever alone shut in. It can be done.

 

[KinasePro]

Oh wait, I missed this. Nevermind, he's a fool. Wow. Just wow. Dude, it doesn't work that way. And here I was thinking you were in it for the love of the field

Yeah, you might land a gold digger wife you'll get sloppy seconds off when she's done with her boyfriend on Friday night. But it's really hard to keep an attractive and loyal woman around with that kind of lifestyle. Enjoy the alimony and child support though, especially if you're living in the Northeast 😆

Oh wow, is this kid in for a wake up call...

I read his comment as sarcastic, but if it was sincere than the ridicule is justified.

 

[DermViser]

ITT: ROAD residents/attendings having their minds blown by someone who doesn't value the 40 hr work week above all else.

Quite the contrary. Read his post AGAIN. There are certain things that jump out. See if you can find them.

 

[Kangal]

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[KinasePro]

They achieved those accomplishments before medicine became what it is now. Medicine has changed dramatically most recently.

The financial/medico-legal environment and lay impression is different, but the same amount of work is required to ascend the ranks in academia. I wish I didn't value my anonymity so much, cuz I could introduce this thread to some inspiring people.

 

[Mad Jack]

I read his comment as sarcastic, but if it was sincere than the ridicule is justified.

Oh it was sarcasm. Reading in reverse you tend to lose a lot of context. Sorry about that OP!

But seriously, if you're going down the path you're going down, make sure it's for the love of medicine. Your personal life is going to suck all the balls and you're probably going to end up on the wrong side of some cheating and divorces.

 

[Mad Jack]

Holy moly, I was being absolutely 100 percent sarcastic. I guess I am socially awkward... when I wrote it it seemed obvious.

It was obvious, I was just half-assedly reading a bunch of comments in reverse and missed some context lol. My sincerest apologies.

 

[maxxor]

In this theme of medicine changing a lot recently, anyone want to speculate on when the tide turned?

Baby boomers patients?

 

[mke520]

reading the OP's initial post made me depressed...i feel like somebody needs to get the OP a beer and show them there's a whole lot more to life than just academic/surgery "stuff"...if that's what floats their boat then i guess keep up the lifestyle but i just have a much different view on life...do whatever makes you happy

 

[Kangal]

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[Mad Jack]

Lol, no hard feelings. I hope the world is not that dark - I loved the heck out my ex and she never cheated, but I think the fact that I thought about my future as MY future, and not OUR future, bothered the heck out of her. With all due respect, if I were her I totally understand why that would be bothersome.

Dude, the world is darker than you could even imagine. Love only lasts for a finite period. After that oxytocin boost ends, things get really cutthroat if you aren't on the same page and don't put the work in.

 

[DermViser]

Lol, no hard feelings. I hope the world is not that dark - I loved the heck out my ex and she never cheated, but I think the fact that I thought about my future as MY future, and not OUR future, bothered the heck out of her. With all due respect, if I were her I totally understand why that would be bothersome.

As it very well should.

 

[Kangal]

.

 

[Mad Jack]

Well as of now, my life is clinical and bench research, soon to be surg and research. I can't speak on the woman thing because I don't have one. Probably a reason why I don't have one. I don't know. It's just not a priority to me right now. But whenever I do end up with a woman, I will make sure the little time I spend with her is of A1, surgical grade, absolute best quality. To the best of my abilities. I have no interest in sacrificing my drive towards or the quality of my work. I also have no interest in hurting anyones feelings, ever.

Oh you are so screwed in the dating department, you don't even know. You're going to be playing the game with girls that've been manipulating guys for longer than you've been sitting behind benches or standing in ORs. It's not that there aren't good girls out there, it's that the ones that want what a successful surgeon has (gold diggers) can outplay the genuine ones every time, and you won't have enough dating experience to sort the two out by the time you're ready to actually hit the market. Good luck though, maybe you'll get lucky.

 

[PL198]

tfw people are staring bc the bar is slightly bending during a beastly deadlift

I just got a 1500 lb test bar( have a rack at home now) and it bends probably 1/10th of what the old bar I was using does. It makes pulling from the floor so much harder. Also love the "why are you going so deep ?" questions I'd always get at my old gym .

OP I think you're fine. Obviously dedicating yourself to your work will help in making you achieve well financially, which gives you more flexibility if your plans/desires ever change.

 

[Kangal]

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[KinasePro]

I just got a 1500 lb test bar( have a rack at home now) and it bends probably 1/10th of what the old bar I was using does. It makes pulling from the floor so much harder. Also love the "why are you going so deep ?" questions I'd always get at my old gym .

Nice. Which rack did you go with and where did you buy weights/bar? I'm gonna need a home setup during residency next yr, so I'm just now starting to plan a bit. Heard military surplus auction has some steals, but they're tough to find. Craigslist is iffy around here. Will use barn supply store for stall mats.

I hoist at our undergrad facility, and it seems vast majority squat to about 30 degrees above parallel at best. You can put more weight on the bar that way I guess, but it's cringeworthy for sure.

 

[Mad Jack]

Yea. I have only ever had one girlfriend before, and besides that I have never dated anyone else, so I don't really know much about "dating". But, I buy my clothing at Osh and Kmart, and probably will never change that part (14 bucks for a pair of wranglers, thats a steal). So maybe gold diggers will leave me alone lol.

No, that's perfect. Means more money for them 😉

 

[Mad Jack]

Nice. Which rack did you go with and where did you buy weights/bar? I'm gonna need a home setup during residency next yr, so I'm just now starting to plan a bit. Heard military surplus auction has some steals, but they're tough to find. Craigslist is iffy around here. Will use barn supply store for stall mats.

I hoist at our undergrad facility, and it seems vast majority squat to about 30 degrees above parallel at best. You can put more weight on the bar that way I guess, but it's cringeworthy for sure.

Some of us can't go past parallel because we're older and have bad knees. It's not about the weight, it's about still being able to walk in our 40s.

 

[KinasePro]

Some of us can't go past parallel because we're older and have bad knees. It's not about the weight, it's about still being able to walk in our 40s.

Old brahs with rickety knees get a pass, it's the healthy 20-somethings that confuse me.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

OH GOD, THE BROS.

 

[PL198]

Nice. Which rack did you go with and where did you buy weights/bar? I'm gonna need a home setup during residency next yr, so I'm just now starting to plan a bit. Heard military surplus auction has some steals, but they're tough to find. Craigslist is iffy around here. Will use barn supply store for stall mats.

I hoist at our undergrad facility, and it seems vast majority squat to about 30 degrees above parallel at best. You can put more weight on the bar that way I guess, but it's cringeworthy for sure.

http://www.bodysolid.com/Home/GPR378/Body-Solid_Pro_Power_Rack/

I got the older version of that rack, but without the pulldown and all the ****, just got the rack, which is very solid. I think it's rated up to 800 lbs and is very solid. Would absolutely recommend to anyone. I got a stupid good steal on craigslist, but honestly that's the way to do it in my mind, because they take up space so people will almost give them away to get rid of them, especially because taking apart and transporting it is such a chore. I paid 500 for my rack, I think 365 lbs in plates, and an ez-curl bar. Bought a jesup bar for 200 with shipping and a few more sets of plates and I'm good to go for the time being until I squat over 550, all for like 900 bucks. Decent racks are really expensive and I think this one is the best quality one that can be had for cheap. I used horse stall mats on top of 3/4'' plywood for the platform, which works well. The mats are 100 lbs each, so when you buy them, bring a roll of duct tape and tape them into cylinders so they are easy to transport. 100 lbs of 4x6 rubber is pretty much impossible to carry unless they are rolled up. I'd either get a Jesup or just a standard texas power bar, but the TPB is a like 100 more with shipping I think. Jesup is a 31 or 32 mm bar which is a little thicker than standard, but I mean obviously that's why it's a bit cheaper. Makes benching and DLing more difficult, but it has amazing knurling and is stiffer than hell. Jesup is a really great company and it was a 10/10 transaction, I think it was at my door in 2 days.

I'd either buy that rack, find a good deal on CL or just buy one of rogue's lower level racks, which would be the most expensive option of the 3. The thing about the rack I got that's good is it's only like 74'' or something like that, so I can do pull ups on it in a 7' room and my hair might just barely graze the ceiling at the top ( I'm 5 ' 11''). It's hard to find racks that aren't super tall that are sturdy. Buy quality your first time through and you'll never have to buy again. Especially the bar and rack. I think CL is definitely the most economical way, I'd even check the craiglists for the neighboring cities. The one I bought was literally a mile from my house, but I got stupid lucky. Here's the kicker though: The dude clearly didn't know that much about it, and had it listed only under "power rack." So like if you searched squat rack on the CL for my area, the stuff wouldn't have come up at all, which severely limited his potential traffic and obviously helped me out I'm sure. So I'd just look for the neighboring ones and also try the obscure names someone could call them like power rack, power cage or even just put in weights. Definitely get the model number of the rack ahead of time and look up it's capacity. Honestly if it's a 3x3 rack it structurally can take way more than the capacities ever are, but any rack that has a 600 or less lb capacity is either poorly built or crappy materials.

 

[PL198]

Old brahs with rickety knees get a pass, it's the healthy 20-somethings that confuse me.

No pass from me for the old dudes! Deeper = less torque on the knee. Maybe if you have bad hips, but I'd still rather see someone build them up slowly and get back to fully functioning which I think full squats are great for.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Deeper = less torque on the knee.

How's that?