Work Hard, Work Hard, No interest in playing.

Burrell College of Osteopathic Medicine
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DermViser said:
The ones in my class that went into medicine for "recognition" were the ones who were most disillusioned by the time medical school is over. You are no longer deified for being a physician. You are a person doing your job and providing a service. Period.
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Sadly, I already saw many of these types in my class...
 
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lazers said:
The reason I have time to reply to your posts is because I'm in academia and we get dedicated research days. The reason I guessed you're a first generation immigrant is because I was in the same boat when I was in your shoes. The only thing I'm warning you is to do neurosurgery and academia only if you love the two. The colleagues of mine who are happy in neurosurgery actually love doing surgery, but I've also had 3 neurosurgery colleagues of mine tell me that they wished they would have done radonc instead of neurosurgery but it was too late for them. Just make sure you actually like what you're doing, and don't do it because of the glory that probably won't come with it. I apologize for being mean.
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I don't think that was directed to you, when he called me a lazy derm ****.
 
When I read this thread , this came to my mind.


730129eaec2c8e3d74bd4a602ab75afab36c33e8b6065ed9b9fede5f343af82e.jpg
 
Kangal said:
Very clear that you feel you have made a mistake going into medicine. It's very sad you are an attending posting on SDN at 11 on a Thurs. If you are vacation, wtf are you doing? If you are working... wtf are you doing? Go to sleep kid. And get a physician symbol if you want anyone to believe you attending physician status.
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I was fine with you until this series of posts. Why so hostile?

In case you don't have a clock in lab, YOU are posting at 11 on a Thursday. Are you waiting between gels? If you were serious you would be running multiple gels, writing papers in between gels, reading articles, etc. it actually thought you were serious about the working a hard 100 hours/week thing. Haha

Now let's think about 11pm on a Friday. What are you doing? Reading articles? Running gels? THAT is very sad. He is probably out with friends/family having fun.

Some people enjoy getting on the forums as a break. Maybe he likes to read what med students have to say to better educate them. Or to help give them advice. Why do you get on? To brag about how "hard" you work?

I wish they had a douche bag symbol because that would fit you great.

Good luck in life... You'll need it.
 
I know Asperger's isn't an excuse at all, but if the OP does have it, or other personality issues that are making him see the issue black-and-white, is it possible for him to seek other mentors that can help him with this? Those who might have Asperger's and are in competitive specialties, or at least those who had mentalities like him in the past? For it seems OP that you just need someone to say, "Hey, I know you've got this passion, but let's redirect that lens it's coming through, or make sure that where it's being directed is the right path."
 
Man, this thread is a shapeshifter if I've ever seen one. From academic intensity --> powerlifting --> asperger's speculation via forum post.

Anyway, this comic reminded me of this thread.
phd070914s.gif

This is every junior faculty member I've ever met during undergrad, lol.

I'm sure you'll be fine in MS3, OP. Nothing to be scared of, just another game you need to figure out how to play. I'm sure you're dealing with plenty of gamesmanship and rapport building during grad school. Rinse and repeat during 3rd year. MD/PhD's seem to do pretty well on the wards in my experience, as long as they can keep themselves from being too pretentious.
 
Kangal said:
I am finding a lack of similarity with a lot of my medical student peers. I have one MD/PhD buddy who is like me, and I'm sure there are a couple of kids in my class like me (haven't talked intimately with everyone). Everyone seems to want the white picket fence, watch their son's soccer game, BBQ on Saturday kind of life. Am I odd for not caring about this? Don't get me wrong, I want a wife, kids, maybe a decent house with a yard...but does the want for this come close to my want to be an academic surgeon -- absolutely not. If I want to do any basic science research worth a damn, and have peak surgical skills, you bet your ass I'll be working 80+ hours a week. Am I naive enough to say my emotional standpoint on the topic won't change throughout the next few years, particularly once I have kids? No. But goals are goals and I am setting up my career based on what I feel now. I am mentored by a neurosurgeon-scientist who regularly pushes 100 hours a weeks. He's a beast, walks tall, and is high on life. Not the happiest- go lucky type of guy, but his ego fuels his beast work. Married too, has kids, doesn't talk about them much. But he likes it. For me, I can't imagine even enjoying free time if I had it every single weekend. I'm not trolling, this is me. I know others just like me. I am uptight, study a ton, enjoy being busy, if I'm not stressed about work I feel guilty because I'm wasting time doing things that aren't benefitting anyone but myself. People tell me to calm down, and I don't see why. I guess my reason for this post is to pose a question. I'm not looking for someone to tell me why my mentality is bad, I am just curious how others rationalize the particular work/play ratio they've established as "acceptable" in their practice. I know how mine will be, I know why I want the balance that I want - 96 work/4 play. So enlighten me on what your balance of work/play is, and why you don't bug out by not doing more, or even, why do you work so much and not play at all (maybe your justification is different than mine)?
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Shoot, you sound intense!
 
chajjohnson said:
I was a lot like you in my pre-med years. Studied constantly, got the highest score in just about every class I took, did bench research 20-30 hours a week, overall I put just about all my time into preparing for med school and was very productive (great MCAT score, good research pubs, high GPA, plenty of volunteer stuff). However, I literally made zero friends during my four years of college. I saw all my peers as competitors and considered them enemies. The only connection I made was with my now-wife, but even that was hard to balance. I eventually realized the reasons I was so die-hard about school and achievements were purely egotistical: I wanted to be the best, I wanted to be smarter and better than others, I wanted respect, I wanted to prove myself to all the girls in high school who rejected me and the people who bullied me (kind of kidding, but insecurity really did play a huge role in how hard I worked). Not to mention that scientific fields also push people to do this kind of thing. Despite my accomplishments, I still felt a large sense of emptiness no matter how much I "achieved". I had thought that doing well in school and research would fulfill me but it didn't.

Eventually I learned there are many, many things in life that fulfill me more than achievements in science and medicine (wife, friends, outdoors stuff, fitness). I still love medicine and it's the only career I can see myself doing, but I'm not going to devote myself 100% to it because I know I need more out of life.

If you feel 100% fulfilled devoting your entire life to medical pursuits, go for it. The world will be a better place for it. Just make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. If you genuinely love the process of research and medicine, that's great, you'll be happy. If you just want to be a rockstar scientist, getting all the b*tches and speaking on TV next to NDT and Bill Nye, you'll probably be disappointed.

Also, just a personal opinion, if you haven't met a woman who makes you want to cut back on your studies to spend time with her, you haven't met your future wife.
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THIS ^. What a great analysis. Could not agree more.
 
Kangal said:
I am finding a lack of similarity with a lot of my medical student peers. I have one MD/PhD buddy who is like me, and I'm sure there are a couple of kids in my class like me (haven't talked intimately with everyone). Everyone seems to want the white picket fence, watch their son's soccer game, BBQ on Saturday kind of life. Am I odd for not caring about this? Don't get me wrong, I want a wife, kids, maybe a decent house with a yard...but does the want for this come close to my want to be an academic surgeon -- absolutely not. If I want to do any basic science research worth a damn, and have peak surgical skills, you bet your ass I'll be working 80+ hours a week. Am I naive enough to say my emotional standpoint on the topic won't change throughout the next few years, particularly once I have kids? No. But goals are goals and I am setting up my career based on what I feel now. I am mentored by a neurosurgeon-scientist who regularly pushes 100 hours a weeks. He's a beast, walks tall, and is high on life. Not the happiest- go lucky type of guy, but his ego fuels his beast work. Married too, has kids, doesn't talk about them much. But he likes it. For me, I can't imagine even enjoying free time if I had it every single weekend. I'm not trolling, this is me. I know others just like me. I am uptight, study a ton, enjoy being busy, if I'm not stressed about work I feel guilty because I'm wasting time doing things that aren't benefitting anyone but myself. People tell me to calm down, and I don't see why. I guess my reason for this post is to pose a question. I'm not looking for someone to tell me why my mentality is bad, I am just curious how others rationalize the particular work/play ratio they've established as "acceptable" in their practice. I know how mine will be, I know why I want the balance that I want - 96 work/4 play. So enlighten me on what your balance of work/play is, and why you don't bug out by not doing more, or even, why do you work so much and not play at all (maybe your justification is different than mine)?
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Don't worry about what my or anyone else's balance is. It sounds like you are relatively happy doing what you are doing, maybe a little insecure because most people do not like to work as much as you do. Again, it goes back to not worrying about what others do or whether you're odd.

Do you actually want a family though? Be honest with yourself, if you're just saying that to make yourself feel like you aren't too different you're doing yourself a disservice. There is nothing wrong with not wanting kids, not everyone is the same, and you especially sound like the kind of person who will be happy being the beast who works 100+ hour work weeks like your mentor. On the flip side, if you actually do want a family, don't be afraid to let some work go, but only if that's what you want.
 
Here's a hint about marriage, assuming for a moment you're straight. If not, just swap the pronouns:

A good marriage takes work. You already said you'll be a crappy husband, so in spite of your talking about grade-A surgical time with your wife, what you actually mean is that she'll be some sort of hobby, like golf, only less/more expensive depending on what clubs you use. (har har). Why make some woman miserable by marrying her and keeping her from legitimately seeking another spouse who might treat her better? The alternative is cheating and not every person wants to do that. But some do and will. My ex is beginning her divorce because she was getting so little attention she started an affair. Do you want to do that to another person? If you don't care, congrats on being a sociopath. If you do, accept that you're not getting married and will be able to purchase your choice of willing company until you have the desire to settle down.
 
altitudinarian said:
I know Asperger's isn't an excuse at all, but if the OP does have it, or other personality issues that are making him see the issue black-and-white, is it possible for him to seek other mentors that can help him with this? Those who might have Asperger's and are in competitive specialties, or at least those who had mentalities like him in the past? For it seems OP that you just need someone to say, "Hey, I know you've got this passion, but let's redirect that lens it's coming through, or make sure that where it's being directed is the right path."
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I wish I had excuses like "autism." I'm just certifiably nuts.

One of the best surgeons I ever worked under was clearly suffering from Asperger's. A lot of people hated him because he came off as a dick, but the truth is, he was one of the best attendings I ever worked for and his research was astounding. Such a personality may be a hindrance in many environments, but I couldn't imagine this doctor functioning at the same level without it.
 
BrainOnFire said:
Here's a hint about marriage, assuming for a moment you're straight. If not, just swap the pronouns:

A good marriage takes work. You already said you'll be a crappy husband, so in spite of your talking about grade-A surgical time with your wife, what you actually mean is that she'll be some sort of hobby, like golf, only less/more expensive depending on what clubs you use. (har har). Why make some woman miserable by marrying her and keeping her from legitimately seeking another spouse who might treat her better? The alternative is cheating and not every person wants to do that. But some do and will. My ex is beginning her divorce because she was getting so little attention she started an affair. Do you want to do that to another person? If you don't care, congrats on being a sociopath. If you do, accept that you're not getting married and will be able to purchase your choice of willing company until you have the desire to settle down.
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This times a million.

If you are iffy about the whole marriage thing don't freakin do it, you aren't just screwing up your life- but another person's as well.
 
Mad Jack said:
I wish I had excuses like "autism." I'm just certifiably nuts.

One of the best surgeons I ever worked under was clearly suffering from Asperger's. A lot of people hated him because he came off as a dick, but the truth is, he was one of the best attendings I ever worked for and his research was astounding. Such a personality may be a hindrance in many environments, but I couldn't imagine this doctor functioning at the same level without it.
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Autism or Asperger's isn't just a personality trait or someone just being a dick. One's medical capability is not somehow diminished for acting normal, as there are doctors who are good at their craft AND are able to get along with others. It's a psychiatric problem and more and more hospitals are unwilling to tolerate it for very long when it affects other people who work there.
 
DermViser said:
Autism or Asperger's isn't just a personality trait or someone just being a dick. One's medical capability is not somehow diminished for acting normal, as there are doctors who are good at their craft AND are able to get along with others. It's a psychiatric problem and more and more hospitals are unwilling to tolerate it for very long when it affects other people who work there.
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I'm well aware. He was actually sent packing eventually. The thing about it is, the guy was never malicious- people tried to read too much into what he was saying when there just wasn't any subtext there. Like he'd ask, "why do you want to make that change?" And people would assume he was questioning their judgement, when in fact he just wanted to know what your train of thought was. I guess I felt bad for the guy, he had no idea and it's basically an something be couldn't change.
 
Mad Jack said:
I'm well aware. He was actually sent packing eventually. The thing about it is, the guy was never malicious- people tried to read too much into what he was saying when there just wasn't any subtext there. Like he'd ask, "why do you want to make that change?" And people would assume he was questioning their judgement, when in fact he just wanted to know what your train of thought was. I guess I felt bad for the guy, he had no idea and it's basically an something be couldn't change.
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I know. It's usually never malicious. In the real world, being able to pick up social cues, is very important in the workplace. People along the asperger spectrum disorder are unable to pick up on these basic social cues. In real life, you're not just judged based on your innate intellectual ability or clinical knowledge only based on your ability to fill in bubbles. But it's not a "requirement" to function.

For many med students, their first time of actually hitting the real world and not being judged on their ability to fill in bubbles is in MS-3, when they have to interact with residents, attendings, and fellow classmates on rotations, where things don't always go your way and surprises happen. For people with Asperger's who up until this time have been judged primarily on multiple choice exams, it can be quite the transition, if it even happens.
 
DermViser said:
I know. It's usually never malicious. In the real world, being able to pick up social cues, is very important in the workplace. People along the asperger spectrum disorder are unable to pick up on these basic social cues. In real life, you're not just judged based on your innate intellectual ability or clinical knowledge only based on your ability to fill in bubbles. But it's not a "requirement' for excellence.

For many med students, their first time of actually hitting the real world and not being judged on their ability to fill in bubbles is in MS-3, when they have to interact with residents, attendings, and fellow classmates on rotations, where things don't always go your way and surprises happen. For people with Asperger's who up until this time have been judged primarily on multiple choice exams, it can be quite the transition, if it even happens.
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Yeah, I can't imagine how rough it'd be for them. Oh god, say one wrong thing to the wrong nurse and the next thing they know it's a sit down with someone to talk about their behavior. And their poor evaluations...

I guess it just kind of bugs me to this day because that physician basically built every major SICU practice we had in place. His work saved, and continues to save, many lives. And his reward for all that was being shown the door because he was incapable of playing politics (which is what it largely boiled down to in the end) and people couldn't deal with his entirely direct nature of talking to them. A large part of how I've gotten by over the years is my soft skills, and yet here's this guy with nothing but pure talent and intelligence I could never match and he's getting shown the door because he can't make small talk or handle nuance. That style is that much more important than substance profoundly depresses me, despite the benefits I gain from such a status quo.
 
Mad Jack said:
Yeah, I can't imagine how rough it'd be for them. Oh god, say one wrong thing to the wrong nurse and the next thing they know it's a sit down with someone to talk about their behavior. And their poor evaluations...

I guess it just kind of bugs me to this day because that physician basically built every major SICU practice we had in place. His work saved, and continues to save, many lives. And his reward for all that was being shown the door because he was incapable of playing politics (which is what it largely boiled down to in the end) and people couldn't deal with his entirely direct nature of talking to them. A large part of how I've gotten by over the years is my soft skills, and yet here's this guy with nothing but pure talent and intelligence I could never match and he's getting shown the door because he can't make small talk or handle nuance. That style is that much more important than substance profoundly depresses me, despite the benefits I gain from such a status quo.
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It's not just saying one thing wrong to one nurse. It's a pattern of behavior. No matter how "good" you are, any one of us can be replaced. None of us are indispensable.

You can call it playing politics, but in the real world, you have to be able to get along with people. For some people those "soft" skills come naturally, for others they have to work on it. It happens in residency, where someone can be very intelligent and know the information, but not have the emotionally intelligence when it comes to ward behavior. While we may think one is more important than the other, in real life, it's really a combination of both.
 
DermViser said:
It's not just saying one thing wrong to one nurse. It's a pattern of behavior. No matter how "good" you are, any one of us can be replaced. None of us are indispensable.

You can call it playing politics, but in the real world, you have to be able to get along with people. For some people those "soft" skills come naturally, for others they have to work on it. It happens in residency, where someone can be very intelligent and know the information, but not have the emotionally intelligence when it comes to ward behavior. While we may think one is more important than the other, in real life, it's really a combination of both.
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I'm not saying they're not important. I just wish we could find a place for people like that in medicine is all.

And with him it certainly was about politics. He probably could have stayed forever if he didn't get too ambitious and end up in a position that other people wanted so badly.
 
Mad Jack said:
I'm not saying they're not important. I just wish we could find a place for people like that in medicine is all.

And with him it certainly was about politics. He probably could have stayed forever if he didn't get too ambitious and end up in a position that other people wanted so badly.
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I agree. I don't think a person's career should end over it. That's why they have "Disruptive Physician" programs for people to iron out difficulties like that and return. I am surprised he got thru residency.
 
DermViser said:
It's not just saying one thing wrong to one nurse. It's a pattern of behavior. No matter how "good" you are, any one of us can be replaced. None of us are indispensable.

You can call it playing politics, but in the real world, you have to be able to get along with people. For some people those "soft" skills come naturally, for others they have to work on it. It happens in residency, where someone can be very intelligent and know the information, but not have the emotionally intelligence when it comes to ward behavior. While we may think one is more important than the other, in real life, it's really a combination of both.
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I feel like being 400K in non dischargeable student debt is enough motivation to get in line with the politics. Just do exactly as they say or go into financial ruin.
 
This thread is giving me an existential crisis about what I really want from life.

Stahp.
 
kirbymiester said:
This thread is giving me an existential crisis about what I really want from life.

Stahp.
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Such a crisis happens to keep you from making monumental mistakes. Don't shrink from them. It may be that, upon examination, you exit the crisis with a more nuanced appreciation of the thing you believed you wanted before, or that you put the breaks on and reverse the course you were on. One way or another, refusing to look at the road signs doesn't make the road ahead any safer.
 
Promethean said:
Such a crisis happens to keep you from making monumental mistakes. Don't shrink from them. It may be that, upon examination, you exit the crisis with a more nuanced appreciation of the thing you believed you wanted before, or that you put the breaks on and reverse the course you were on. One way or another, refusing to look at the road signs doesn't make the road ahead any safer.
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Haha, fortunately I was mostly joking. Those are some wise words.

My biggest realization in medical school came when I finally understood that you reach a point in your medical career where further accomplishment requires replacement with something else in your life. You come to a point where instead of something being unachievable because you don't have what it takes, you stop yourself because you can't lose anything else.

I'm still finding my stopping point. It's just a point of reflection for me, reading threads like these.
 
pre med 2014 said:
Well maybe not his wife and kids will care to visit but maybe all the peoples lives he saves would care??
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Lol if you think the people a doctor saves are going to visit their grave or care about the doctor after it happens, major LOLZ are to be had
 
PL198 said:
Lol if you think the people a doctor saves are going to visit their grave or care about the doctor after it happens, major LOLZ are to be had
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Well I doubt they would actually visit his grave, the point of the post was that he will probably make more of a difference in the lives of some patients than his family lol

Yea most of medicine is pretty routine but every once in a while you will get a special patient and they will remember how you helped them for a long time to come
 
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