Worst residency match rate

[npappasan]

I've been surfing this board today on call at the hospital. Interesting posts, especially about the Caribbean medical schools. Let me give a perspective from someone who has been practicing for almost 20 years. Does anyone know what has the THE ABSOLUTE worst residency match rate? Not going to medical school at all. This has consistently had a 0% residency match rate. Make sure you go back and read that again. All this discussion about US vs Caribbean, MD vs DO, DO vs Caribbean; bottom line: do what you have to do to get your degree. If a US school MD program is not working out, shoot for a DO program. If that is not working out, go to one of the established Caribbean schools. There is absolutely no shame in that. We lose sight of the fact that the US is not the only place in the world which produces physicians. The formula is the same regardless of where you go. Work hard. Get good grades. Get good board scores. Worry about the residency issue when you get to that that point. Stop trying to jump from point A straight to point E. If worrying about where your degree is from when the Caribbean is your only REALISTIC option, then you probably don't want this bad enough and should consider doing something else. BTW, I have no clue where the majority of my colleagues graduated from, nor do I care. No one does. Just do it! Best wishes to everyone.

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[673441]

I've been surfing this board today on call at the hospital. Interesting posts, especially about the Caribbean medical schools. Let me give a perspective from someone who has been practicing for almost 20 years. Does anyone know what has the THE ABSOLUTE worst residency match rate? Not going to medical school at all. This has consistently had a 0% residency match rate. Make sure you go back and read that again. All this discussion about US vs Caribbean, MD vs DO, DO vs Caribbean; bottom line: do what you have to do to get your degree. If a US school MD program is not working out, shoot for a DO program. If that is not working out, go to one of the established Caribbean schools. There is absolutely no shame in that. We lose sight of the fact that the US is not the only place in the world which produces physicians. The formula is the same regardless of where you go. Work hard. Get good grades. Get good board scores. Worry about the residency issue when you get to that that point. Stop trying to jump from point A straight to point E. If worrying about where your degree is from when the Caribbean is your only REALISTIC option, then you probably don't want this bad enough and should consider doing something else. BTW, I have no clue where the majority of my colleagues graduated from, nor do I care. No one does. Just do it! Best wishes to everyone.

Thank you for your post and insight doc! More open-minded colleagues is what this profession needs! Take care.

 

[npappasan]

I was there 20+ years ago. Had I not gotten into a US school, I would have a Caribbean degree. I had applied to and gotten into AUC as my backup plan back in the day when they were on Montserrat. Fortunately I got into a US school but wouldn't have given it a second thought had no US acceptances shown up. You do what you have to do when you want it bad enough. There was a guy in my undergrad who was an older airline pilot who wanted to go to med school. He was smart/ competitive but didnt want to deal with the hassle of potentially not getting accepted so he didnt even apply to any US schools. He applied to AUC, got in easily, and went there so he could start and be done with it. Think what you will of it, but he has what none of the potential naysayers on these forums have: an MD degree.

 

[bedevilled ben]

I was there 20+ years ago. Had I not gotten into a US school, I would have a Caribbean degree. I had applied to and gotten into AUC as my backup plan back in the day when they were on Montserrat. Fortunately I got into a US school but wouldn't have given it a second thought had no US acceptances shown up. You do what you have to do when you want it bad enough. There was a guy in my undergrad who was an older airline pilot who wanted to go to med school. He was smart/ competitive but didnt want to deal with the hassle of potentially not getting accepted so he didnt even apply to any US schools. He applied to AUC, got in easily, and went there so he could start and be done with it. Think what you will of it, but he has what none of the potential naysayers on these forums have: an MD degree.

With all respect, there is a difference between being a naysayer and being realistic and pragmatic. The landscape of medical education has undergone significant changes in the last 20 years, not the least of which is the dramatic increase in competition and disproportionate emphasis on Step testing. Additionally, the cost of these schools has dramatically increased in the last decade. I just recently graduated from SGU and my current debt from med school is nearly half a million dollars. I would have that SAME debt and then some if I had not been able to Match successfully. An MD or DO degree without residency is an anchor around your neck, there is no realistic "fall back" option. If students area heading to the Caribbean, they absolutely cannot wait until MS3 to start worrying about Matching. You have to be preparing for it Day 1 and constantly be on the lookout to position yourself properly for success.

 

[npappasan]

I think you missed my point. I've been reading threads about folks debating whether to go to a US program for and MD vs DO degree vs going to a Caribbean program etc., as if the choice is in their hands. They debate the merits of each without any real insight and as if it's as easy as ordering off a menu. The threads usually read "should I try for a DO program or go to the Caribbean?". My point is that the decision is usually not up to you. What IS up to you is how badly you want to be a physician. If one can secure a position in a US MD or DO program then by all means you should jump at it. That is a no brainer. But, if that doesnt work out and you still want to do this, then the offshore route is your means to the end. Your point about considering residency from day 1 is understood but the formula for that success is the same regardless of where you attend school: work hard, get good grades, get good board scores, get good recommendations. The notion that a US student who graduates at or near the bottom of their class with mediocre boards will somehow have an advantage over a stellar foreign grad who has HONORS and a scores in the 98th percentile on boards is fallacy. I've been a Clinical Professor for years. Of all the residents and students I have taught, I can assure you that the vast majority are just as green as the next when they hit my service. The bell curve usually remains constant no matter how hard you try to alter it. Those who are destined to work at being on the right side of the bell, regardless of which school they attend, will usually do just fine. I'm curious what field you are training in btw.

 

[bedevilled ben]

The notion that a US student who graduates at or near the bottom of their class with mediocre boards will somehow have an advantage over a stellar foreign grad who has HONORS and a scores in the 98th percentile on boards is fallacy

I would debate this point. It's not fallacy at all that US graduates, even the the lowest n-th percentile, are at a significant advantage to FMG/IMG's. You can score in the 99th percentile as a FMG or IMG and it may not matter, there are tons of US programs that simply won't even consider non-US graduates for their programs. There are entire specializations in medicine that have --literally-- never accepted a Caribbean graduate. The non-Match rate for US schools is <5% (most are <2%). The non-Match rate for good Caribbean schools is still >15%, for the mid and low-tier schools its >50% in many cases. You're comparing the best of a Caribbean class to the worst of a USMD class. For less-competitive specialties like Peds or Psych, the differences aren't huge. But when you start looking at Rads, IM, or Ob/Gyn the bias becomes more pronounced, and it's blatantly obvious for competitive programs like Ortho or Derm.

I'm not arguing that it can be a path to success for a lot of people (hell, I like to think that I'm one of them). But there are a LOT of pitfalls along the way, and lots of opportunity for catastrophically life-altering failure. I agree with the spirit of your post, that competent, hard-working, and diligent students can become good physicians from anywhere in the world. And I also agree with you that once you place in residency, nobody gives a rip where you went to medical school, they care about how good you are working in the trenches. But getting placed in that residency that you want is currently pretty tricky for IMG's/FMG's, and it's hard to explain the potentials for failure to a bright-eyed 24 year old pre-med with no work experience how hard it is to pay off $400k in debt on a $60k a year salary when they fail to Match.

I've been a Clinical Professor for years. Of all the residents and students I have taught, I can assure you that the vast majority are just as green as the next when they hit my service

I'm sure that's true. I'm not arguing the actual quality of the education. In fact I feel like I received better clinical training and than most of my co-residents, simply because I did my clerkships at huge understaffed programs without residents. I ended up taking on more responsibility as a result, which was scary at the time but has really paid off for me in residency.

I'm curious what field you are training in btw.

I'm a psychiatry resident.

 

[PossibleDOC?]

Its a proven fact that most physicians in the field have no idea what actually goes into medical school admissions now at days or what the residency match rates are unless they are involved in a residency program at their hospital. While you may be a clinical professor, it is still far from admissions committes or residency directors and what they look for. So while this post may be inspirational and a "go get 'em!" post, its easy to say these things when you attended a US med school, paid less to go to that school (tuition has risen obviously), and are a successful practicing physician today. Sorry but just being realistic

 

[npappasan]

Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right!

 

[NotAProgDirector]

The notion that a US student who graduates at or near the bottom of their class with mediocre boards will somehow have an advantage over a stellar foreign grad who has HONORS and a scores in the 98th percentile on boards is fallacy.

You're (somewhat) comparing apples and oranges here.

A US grad in the bottom 10% of their class is likely to get a residency spot somewhere.

An IMG with stellar scores and performance is likely to get a residency spot somewhere.

It's very difficult to compare the two. Some programs might prefer a weaker USMG. Some might prefer a stronger IMG. Totally depends on what characteristics they focus on.

An IMG with poor scores, or perhaps even mediocre scores, may not get a spot at all. That's the point. Being a weak USMG is infinitely better than being a weak IMG.

And as mentioned, there is a huge downside -- more debt.

I agree that after residency, no one cares. But to get a residency, PD's definitely care.

So, Carib schools are "fine", as long as people understand what they are getting into. People who attend who do well, will likely get spots. Those that do more poorly may not. Some large percentage fail out and have only debt to show for it. Whether this is "giving people a chance" or "exploiting the weak and vulnerable" depends upon your view of the situation. But telling people to "just do it" without understanding the downsides/consequences is foolhardy.

Does anyone know what has the THE ABSOLUTE worst residency match rate? Not going to medical school at all.

"You can't win if you don't play" is a common slogan for the lottery. It's true. Still, it's also true that playing the lottery is a losing game for most.

 

[npappasan]

I'm curious what it is you care about as a PD, as you mentioned. Whether they went to a US school? MD vs DO? What specialty is your program?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Internal Medicine. I care about everything. We consider all types of applicants. Out of 1000 IMG applications we interview ~10, rank 5-6, and match usually 0 or 1.

 

[npappasan]

Internal Medicine. I care about everything. We consider all types of applicants. Out of 1000 IMG applications we interview ~10, rank 5-6, and match usually 0 or 1.

You only interview 10???? I had that many in my interview group alone.

 

[zobay]

I was there 20+ years ago. Had I not gotten into a US school, I would have a Caribbean degree. I had applied to and gotten into AUC as my backup plan back in the day when they were on Montserrat. Fortunately I got into a US school but wouldn't have given it a second thought had no US acceptances shown up. You do what you have to do when you want it bad enough. There was a guy in my undergrad who was an older airline pilot who wanted to go to med school. He was smart/ competitive but didnt want to deal with the hassle of potentially not getting accepted so he didnt even apply to any US schools. He applied to AUC, got in easily, and went there so he could start and be done with it. Think what you will of it, but he has what none of the potential naysayers on these forums have: an MD degree.

You guys warm my heart. Thanks for being awesome and uplifting!


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[Basilone1]

With all respect, there is a difference between being a naysayer and being realistic and pragmatic. The landscape of medical education has undergone significant changes in the last 20 years, not the least of which is the dramatic increase in competition and disproportionate emphasis on Step testing. Additionally, the cost of these schools has dramatically increased in the last decade. I just recently graduated from SGU and my current debt from med school is nearly half a million dollars. I would have that SAME debt and then some if I had not been able to Match successfully. An MD or DO degree without residency is an anchor around your neck, there is no realistic "fall back" option. If students area heading to the Caribbean, they absolutely cannot wait until MS3 to start worrying about Matching. You have to be preparing for it Day 1 and constantly be on the lookout to position yourself properly for success.

Hey bedeviled, I know this is an old forum but I have also looked heavily into the dilemma between going to Carib school/ US. I’m curious if you matched into a residency after finishing SGU. I also know someone who went there and is now doing rotations in California. In your opinion, would you recommend SGU considering all of the criticisms Carib schools receive? Thank you

 

[mcat_taker]

Hey bedeviled, I know this is an old forum but I have also looked heavily into the dilemma between going to Carib school/ US. I’m curious if you matched into a residency after finishing SGU. I also know someone who went there and is now doing rotations in California. In your opinion, would you recommend SGU considering all of the criticisms Carib schools receive? Thank you

He did match. He's a psychiatry resident.

 

[bedevilled ben]

Hey bedeviled, I know this is an old forum but I have also looked heavily into the dilemma between going to Carib school/ US. I’m curious if you matched into a residency after finishing SGU. I also know someone who went there and is now doing rotations in California. In your opinion, would you recommend SGU considering all of the criticisms Carib schools receive? Thank you

I matched in MS4 from SGU in 2016, I'm about to start my PGY-3 year as a psychiatry resident. I can't really say I recommend it, as going to the Caribbean is far from an ideal situation for most people. If you're even in a position where you're considering it, then clearly there were some hiccups along the way. It can be done successfully though, quite a lot of people Match from SGU every year after all. Of the Caribbean schools, I recommend people consider only SGU or Ross.

I've spoken at length in the past about my experience with SGU, the Match as a Caribbean graduate, and my thoughts on medical education in general here on these forums. Feel free to look through my posting history for more details.

 

[Skip Intro]

I think @bedevilled ben, @theargus, and myself are pretty good, honest, realistic barometers of what you should expect if you go to the Caribbean. There are a lot of naysayers who talk the talk despite having not walked the walk. The three of us, who post here frequently and consistently, know what we're talking about. The rest? Your choice whether to believe what's said... or not.

-Skip

 

[Skip Intro]

Oh...

And, @aProgDirector is also worth paying attention to. Close attention.

-Skip

 

[knowledge777]

I first started lurking on SDN and these pages nearly 7 years ago. I was curious on finding good info on Caribbean schools. I actually applied around then to the top 3 and got denied at all of them.

The discourse on here eventually lead me to the Pre-DO forums where it took me 4.5 years to obtain an acceptance to a DO school (“top” one). I sometimes wonder where I woulda been had one of those schools taken me.

I just thought I’d leave y’all with some love since I remember @skipintro and some others helping me a lot with stuff that is still relevant to me today.


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