Worth of GPA points vs. MCAT points

Applying to Med School? Get In Or Your Money Back
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
skijumpbump

skijumpbump

Full Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2007
Messages
175
Reaction score
1
Is a person with a 3.5 GPA and 30 MCAT equal to a person with a 3.3 GPA and 32 MCAT assuming ALL other variables are equal? Or does a 3.5 GPA 30 MCAT = 3.2 GPA 33 MCAT. I am really wondering how many MCAT points equal a GPA point (or fraction of a point) in the eyes of an ADCOM. These will obviously all be speculation but I would still like to know what people think.
Members don't see this ad.
 
skijumpbump said:
Is a person with a 3.5 GPA and 30 MCAT equal to a person with a 3.3 GPA and 32 MCAT assuming ALL other variables are equal? Or does a 3.5 GPA 30 MCAT = 3.2 GPA 33 MCAT. I am really wondering how many MCAT points equal a GPA point (or fraction of a point) in the eyes of an ADCOM. These will obviously all be speculation but I would still like to know what people think.
Click to expand...
Id rather have a 3.5 and 30, then a 3.2 and 33.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
And the reason is the same as the reason you'd rather have a 10 10 10 than a 15 10 5. When it comes to numbers, you really don't want anything to be bad. I would almost rather have a 3.5, 30 over a 3.2, 40, even though the calculated "score" would be much better for the 2nd. If you write out a table comparing mcat, gpa, and total score, the people in the middle get in more frequently.

MCAT LM Score
28 62 63 64 65
29 63 64 65 66
30 64 65 66 67
31 65 66 67 68
32 66 67 68 69
3.4 3.5 3.6 3.7 GPA

I would argue that the red 66 is a better 66 than the others. Certainly better than a 3.0, 36.

Comments? Anyone agree/disagree? My LM score was a 74, which should have made me competitive at many more schools than it actually did, considering my high MCAT and my low GPA.
 
bodonid said:
And the reason is the same as the reason you'd rather have a 10 10 10 than a 15 10 5. When it comes to numbers, you really don't want anything to be bad. I would almost rather have a 3.5, 30 over a 3.2, 40, even though the calculated "score" would be much better for the 2nd. If you write out a table comparing mcat, gpa, and total score, the people in the middle get in more frequently.

MCAT LM Score
28 62 63 64 65
29 63 64 65 66
30 64 65 66 67
31 65 66 67 68
32 66 67 68 69
3.4 3.5 3.6 3.7 GPA

I would argue that the red 66 is a better 66 than the others. Certainly better than a 3.0, 36.

Comments? Anyone agree/disagree? My LM score was a 74, which should have made me competitive at many more schools than it actually did, considering my high MCAT and my low GPA.
Click to expand...

It depends on the undergrad school and undergrad major that produced that gpa. If it was Engineering at Caltech it is a different kettle of fish than psychology at No-name College in Podunk. It can also matter if you've taken a light load every quarter or a heavy one, and if you've taken what appear to be easy courses (music performance, dance, heritage langugages).


The place that a low gpa (or low MCAT) can hurt is where there is an automatic cutpoint for serious review of an application.

I've also seen adcom members discount a really high MCAT if the gpa is poor and the applicant has worked for Kaplan or a similar company. The argument is that the person is just a good test taker and has learned some tricks. It doesn't matter if you went to work after taking the MCAT (the usual situation), it might taint you.
 
LizzyM said:
LizzyM score = gpa(10)+MCAT. Do the algebra yourself.

All your examples work out to 65 and are therefore equal.
Click to expand...

For some reason, this post reminds me of the types of formulas Hollinger uses for his ESPN ratings and articles.

Maybe I've watched too much NBA lately...
 
if you have a high GPA like 3.8....... how low of an MCAT score do you think you'd be able to get and still be accepted somewhere (it can be lowest tier MD school in US.
 
ryserr21 said:
if you have a high GPA like 3.8....... how low of an MCAT score do you think you'd be able to get and still be accepted somewhere (it can be lowest tier MD school in US.
Click to expand...
Well considering there are a few schools that have averages of 27s, I would say a 25, but for most others I would say a 27.
 
ryserr21 said:
if you have a high GPA like 3.8....... how low of an MCAT score do you think you'd be able to get and still be accepted somewhere (it can be lowest tier MD school in US.
Click to expand...

It would depend on your state (some of the lowest schools don't take OOS) I'd think that with 9 9 9 you'd be good at a private school.

As for the question of graduate school grades, no I don't factor them into the Lizzy score because med schools don't publish matriculant or accepted applicant avg grad school gpas. There is so much grade inflation in grad school (you need an absence of both pulse and respiration to get less than a B in a grad school course) that a gpa of 3.75 or higher is expected in all but the most unusual circumstances. I've heard adcom members scoff at grad school gpas of only 3.7.
 
LizzyM said:
It would depend on your state (some of the lowest schools don't take OOS) I'd think that with 9 9 9 you'd be good at a private school.

As for the question of graduate school grades, no I don't factor them into the Lizzy score because med schools don't publish matriculant or accepted applicant avg grad school gpas. There is so much grade inflation in grad school (you need an absence of both pulse and respiration to get less than a B in a grad school course) that a gpa of 3.75 or higher is expected in all but the most unusual circumstances. I've heard adcom members scoff at grad school gpas of only 3.7.
Click to expand...

This LizzyM scale arouses my interest. Anyone care to provide a background to it please?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
LizzyM said:
It would depend on your state (some of the lowest schools don't take OOS) I'd think that with 9 9 9 you'd be good at a private school.

As for the question of graduate school grades, no I don't factor them into the Lizzy score because med schools don't publish matriculant or accepted applicant avg grad school gpas. There is so much grade inflation in grad school (you need an absence of both pulse and respiration to get less than a B in a grad school course) that a gpa of 3.75 or higher is expected in all but the most unusual circumstances. I've heard adcom members scoff at grad school gpas of only 3.7.
Click to expand...



thats quite a generalization about grad programs......i doubt students in masters/phd grad programs in engineering, biostatistics, and physics share that opinion
 
LizzyM said:
I'm LizzyM and I invented it after 5 or 6 years of service on an adcom. it seems to be a quick & dirty way to tell if you are in the ball park or outside hoping to catch an unlikely homer.
Click to expand...

Touche. I figured you were LizzyM by your earlier posts but the second part really explained it. quite a simple and ingenius method.
 
I'd say that the Lizzy M score is only valuable up to a point, and mostly valuable around the average GPAs and MCATs...at about 3.5GPA is probably where its usefulness starts to wear down. My LizzyM score is 73.
I would much rather have a 3.8 and a 35 than my 3.3 and 40. The first breakdown would give me a shot at any top tier school in the country while the second puts me who knows where...(middle of the pack maybe?)
 
Vihsadas said:
I'd say that the Lizzy M score is only valuable up to a point, and mostly valuable around the average GPAs and MCATs...at about 3.5GPA is probably where its usefulness starts to wear down. My LizzyM score is 73.
I would much rather have a 3.8 and a 35 than my 3.3 and 40. The first breakdown would give me a shot at any top tier school in the country while the second puts me who knows where...(middle of the pack maybe?)
Click to expand...

You are right, but it is ironic b/c the AAMC's own study concluded that "MCAT scores almost double the proportion of variance in medical school grades explained by uGPAs, and essentially replace the need for uGPAs in their impressive prediction of Step scores. The MCAT performs well as an indicator of academic preparation for medical school, independent of the school-specific handicaps of uGPAs." (link: http://www.academicmedicine.org/pt/...8L7cQVR7c06JdyZF!-667243907!181195629!8091!-1)

That said, med schools are aware that the difference between a 36 and a 40 is probably a handful of questions. In other words, any differences in future performance predicted between those who score a 12 in a section versus those who score a 13 or 14 is negligible. The more interesting scenario is whether or not a student with a 3.3/40 is stronger than the student with a 3.8/30.

I am not an admissions expert, but since it is fun I'll speculate that the 3.3/40 would be the stronger applicant presuming that the red flags raised by the 3.3 GPA were sufficiently explained and that no other red flags appeared.
 
LizzyM said:
In more than 8 cycles I've never seen an applicant who had earned or who was earning a masters degree in any of those fields.
Click to expand...

well...someone will next year....I'll be applying with a PhD in Physics.
 
LizzyM said:
I'm LizzyM and I invented it after 5 or 6 years of service on an adcom. it seems to be a quick & dirty way to tell if you are in the ball park or outside hoping to catch an unlikely homer.
Click to expand...

If you did invent it, you should have patented it or something... I have seen it everywhere! From a text guide to medical admissions to my own home college pre-med office. It is a pretty good calculation too, much simpler than the ones they use for grad school & some other types of professional school.
 
MCAT, simply MCAT. Then GPA takes a close second. Everything else hardly matters. And LizzyM you need to put in a disclaimer about the GPA vs. Major, because 90% of ADCOMS could care less and you know it :)
 
novastorm said:
MCAT, simply MCAT. Then GPA takes a close second. Everything else hardly matters.
Click to expand...

I wholeheartedly disagree. There's a lot going on. GPA and MCAT are only pieces of the puzzle.

Having a great MCAT score hasn't seemed to help me much, but my sample is quite small (n = 1)... can't really derive much from that.
 
dienekes88 said:
I wholeheartedly disagree. There's a lot going on. GPA and MCAT are only pieces of the puzzle.

Having a great MCAT score hasn't seemed to help me much, but my sample is quite small (n = 1)... can't really derive much from that.
Click to expand...

The thing is WHERE in the admissions process you are. If your marginal for an interview, your marginal, there are plenty of people who are not that they can interview, you may get lucky but It's risky to bet on that. More often then not it will be MCAT - Science GPA > Overall GPA - Non Science GPA > Essays - LOR's - EC's.

Once you have an interview honestly that can be placed anywhere in that hierarchy, depends on the place. Possibly AFTER interview your major may play a factor, but its minor.
 
LizzyM said:
In more than 8 cycles I've never seen an applicant who had earned or who was earning a masters degree in any of those fields.
Click to expand...
Lizzy, I know you've seen me suck up to you long enough to realize I greatly value your opinion on everything related to admission.. but I do hope you can reconsider your stance on graduate school grades, even just slightly.

During my graduate program I took some of the same undergraduate courses that the other pre-meds took (molecular genetics, immunology, histology) with 60-100 other pre-meds, almost all of which were typical junior/senior undergraduates. we had the same book, same teacher, took the same exams, and were graded on the same scale.. sometimes the graduate students also had to do additional papers/presentations. I earned the same A that any other pre-med would have earned.

graduate grades are usually very good because graduate school often selects for intelligent, hard-working individuals in the first place. they don't just give us A's.. I had to work very hard for the A's that I got in graduate school. my knowledge in the subject can demonstrate that to you.

anyway, I just hope you can read this and maybe the next time you see a 4.0 in graduate school you won't just think "Yeah, typical grade inflation...". Maybe you'll consider that we did work very hard to earn those grades.
 
skijumpbump said:
Is a person with a 3.5 GPA and 30 MCAT equal to a person with a 3.3 GPA and 32 MCAT assuming ALL other variables are equal? Or does a 3.5 GPA 30 MCAT = 3.2 GPA 33 MCAT. I am really wondering how many MCAT points equal a GPA point (or fraction of a point) in the eyes of an ADCOM. These will obviously all be speculation but I would still like to know what people think.
Click to expand...

MCAT does not offset uGPA and uGPA does not offset MCAT. You need to be strong in both. There are far too many folks out there that have strong performances in both. If you are below average in something that you can change, you need to get above average. Those uGPAs of 3.3 and 3.5 are below average for matriculants that entered in 2007 and definitely will be below average for future matriculants. MCAT won't change this and the average for MCAT is increasing every year too.

This isn't a one versus the other proposition but having a complete application that is as strong as possible in every way. At the two schools where I do admissions work, neither of the above would be competitive.
 
njbmd said:
MCAT does not offset uGPA and uGPA does not offset MCAT. You need to be strong in both. There are far too many folks out there that have strong performances in both. If you are below average in something that you can change, you need to get above average. Those uGPAs of 3.3 and 3.5 are below average for matriculants that entered in 2007 and definitely will be below average for future matriculants. MCAT won't change this and the average for MCAT is increasing every year too.

This isn't a one versus the other proposition but having a complete application that is as strong as possible in every way. At the two schools where I do admissions work, neither of the above would be competitive.
Click to expand...
half of all matriculants have below average GPAs and MCATs :)
 
Vihsadas said:
I would much rather have a 3.8 and a 35 than my 3.3 and 40. The first breakdown would give me a shot at any top tier school in the country
Click to expand...
Hmm, less so than you might think. I was once under that impression.
 
armybound said:
Lizzy, I know you've seen me suck up to you long enough to realize I greatly value your opinion on everything related to admission.. but I do hope you can reconsider your stance on graduate school grades, even just slightly.

During my graduate program I took some of the same undergraduate courses that the other pre-meds took (molecular genetics, immunology, histology) with 60-100 other pre-meds, almost all of which were typical junior/senior undergraduates. we had the same book, same teacher, took the same exams, and were graded on the same scale.. sometimes the graduate students also had to do additional papers/presentations. I earned the same A that any other pre-med would have earned.

graduate grades are usually very good because graduate school often selects for intelligent, hard-working individuals in the first place. they don't just give us A's.. I had to work very hard for the A's that I got in graduate school. my knowledge in the subject can demonstrate that to you.

anyway, I just hope you can read this and maybe the next time you see a 4.0 in graduate school you won't just think "Yeah, typical grade inflation...". Maybe you'll consider that we did work very hard to earn those grades.
Click to expand...

I was about to say the same thing. My parasitology classes were no easier than undergrad. I worked the same amount or more and As were not handed out like candy for showing up. While there was a seminar course or two thrown in, the majority were lecture based science courses. The almost 4.0 that I got was indeed earned.
 
Keeping in mind that numbers do not mean everything. I have a 77 LM score, but only one acceptance at this point.
 
TheProwler said:
Hmm, less so than you might think. I was once under that impression.
Click to expand...

You may not be guaranteed an interview/acceptance based on those numbers, but I can't imagine any school rejecting someone because they have a 3.8/35
 
LizzyM said:
In more than 8 cycles I've never seen an applicant who had earned or who was earning a masters degree in any of those fields.
Click to expand...

I have my master's degree in math and it didn't appear to do anything for me. (undergrad gpa of 3.3, master's degree gpa of 3.8, post-bac gpa of 3.95, 36 mcat, 18 applications, 3 interviews). clearly graduate work does not sufficiently overshadow a weak undergraduate transcript (even if it was 4-7 years ago).
 
bodonid said:
MCAT LM Score
28 62 63 64 65
29 63 64 65 66
30 64 65 66 67
31 65 66 67 68
32 66 67 68 69
3.4 3.5 3.6 3.7 GPA

I would argue that the red 66 is a better 66 than the others. Certainly better than a 3.0, 36.
Click to expand...

I disagree. The best 66 is a 45 MCAT and 2.10 GPA.

(Sorry if anyone already made this joke, I'm too tired to read every post!)
 
DoctorDreamer, you may have only one offer so far but you have seven more schools to hear from (after interview). The Lizzy score is more a way of determining where to apply rather than saying "you will get in". I just feel badly for applicants with a Lizzy score of 63 who apply to 10 of the top 20 schools and are stunned when they don't get a single invitation to interview.

My comments about graduate school gpa come from more than a dozen adcom members with whom I have had innumerable meetings to discuss applicants after interview and the written commentaries made by adcom members on hundreds of applications before interview. I don't doubt that grad students work very hard but when a grad school gpa of 3.45 or even 3.5shows up on an application there are some serious reservations expressed by my fellow adcom members.

And, the thought that half of the matriculants are below average... keep in mind that this is seldom a perfect bell curve. I do believe that at my school (and most upper tier schools), it is skewed left with a long right tail. For example, if the average MCAT is 33, you might find that 90% of the matriculants have an MCAT of 31 or more, and 10% have a MCAT of 38 or more. Can you picture this? Sometimes there are one or two outliers with significantly lower MCATs and there is usually a pretty unusual story that goes along with each of them.
 
LizzyM said:
And, the thought that half of the matriculants are below average... keep in mind that this is seldom a perfect bell curve. I do believe that at my school (and most upper tier schools), it is skewed left with a long right tail. For example, if the average MCAT is 33, you might find that 90% of the matriculants have an MCAT of 31 or more, and 10% have a MCAT of 38 or more. Can you picture this? Sometimes there are one or two outliers with significantly lower MCATs and there is usually a pretty unusual story that goes along with each of them.
Click to expand...

This is interesting; I never thought about it in those terms before. Very insightful :).
 
LizzyM said:
DoctorDreamer, you may have only one offer so far but you have seven more schools to hear from (after interview). The Lizzy score is more a way of determining where to apply rather than saying "you will get in". I just feel badly for applicants with a Lizzy score of 63 who apply to 10 of the top 20 schools and are stunned when they don't get a single invitation to interview.

My comments about graduate school gpa come from more than a dozen adcom members with whom I have had innumerable meetings to discuss applicants after interview and the written commentaries made by adcom members on hundreds of applications before interview. I don't doubt that grad students work very hard but when a grad school gpa of 3.45 or even 3.5shows up on an application there are some serious reservations expressed by my fellow adcom members.

And, the thought that half of the matriculants are below average... keep in mind that this is seldom a perfect bell curve. I do believe that at my school (and most upper tier schools), it is skewed left with a long right tail. For example, if the average MCAT is 33, you might find that 90% of the matriculants have an MCAT of 31 or more, and 10% have a MCAT of 38 or more. Can you picture this? Sometimes there are one or two outliers with significantly lower MCATs and there is usually a pretty unusual story that goes along with each of them.
Click to expand...

LizzyM, what's your opinion of students who do Special Masters Programs? They aren't typical grad programs since you're competing against med students in med school courses (Honors = A, High Pass = A-/B+, Pass = B/B-, etc.) with some additional regular grad courses. What kind of GPA would you expect from an SMP student?
 
Since the averages may be skewed, wouldnt that make the median a fairly reliable source for determining your competitiveness.

Ex. Wakes average MCAT is about 31, and there median is a 32, would it be safe to say that half of them score 32 or lower and the other half are 32 or higher?


It also seems that it is very rare that average and median will differ by much, probably +/- 1 either way.
 
LizzyM said:
It would depend on your state (some of the lowest schools don't take OOS) I'd think that with 9 9 9 you'd be good at a private school.

As for the question of graduate school grades, no I don't factor them into the Lizzy score because med schools don't publish matriculant or accepted applicant avg grad school gpas. There is so much grade inflation in grad school (you need an absence of both pulse and respiration to get less than a B in a grad school course) that a gpa of 3.75 or higher is expected in all but the most unusual circumstances. I've heard adcom members scoff at grad school gpas of only 3.7.
Click to expand...

Ouch... do they feel the same about law school gpas?
 
SMPs? Seldom see these here. I think that applicants from these programs generally apply to mid-tier schools. I'd expect that we'd want to see nothing below an A-.

Average and Median? What you call "average" is what the statisticians call "mean". It all depends on the distribution of the variable. Median can stay rock solid at 32 regardless of whether the left tail is long with several applicants with MCAT < 25 or short with no score <29. The mean might be the same in both cases but the standard deviation (something we seldom see reported) would vary.

AMCAS does publish standard deviations but not for the MCAT summed (only for each section separtately) and in general the S.D. is <2 . (e.g. in 2007 the mean verbal for all matriculants was 9.9 with a standard deviation of 1.8).

Law school gpa? Very unusual to see an application from someone in or who has finished law school. I think that the general approach would be to ignore the law school gpa and focus exclusively on the performance in the specific pre-req courses, the MCAT. The motivation for pursuing a career in medicine and the steps taken to test that interest (work, shadowing and/or volunteer ) would take center stage well ahead of performance in law school.
 
I'm not saying that MCAT and GPA are not important. They are fairly objective ways to stratify people. However, and I do not mean to offend anyone in particular b/c I'm too lazy to read through all the details in the MDApps profiles, but:

(1) There is a HUGE range/variation among applicants in regards to the quality of the written application, from the personal statement to secondary essays to the way they describe their experiences.

(2) A lot of people FAIL to convince every school that they understand that medicine will truly be right for them as a profession.

(3) A lot of people don't get enough from their ECs or else don't accurately express what they got from their ECs.

(4) Med schools say that they don't really look at the writing score on the MCAT very much, but that writing score is probably consistent with the package you will put together as your application. If yours is weak, be sure to belabor the quality of your written application.

(5) With some frequency people have red flags - from a simple comment to something more substantial - that basically puts them on the bottom of the pile.

That's why your 3.9 36 doesn't get as many interviews as they had hoped or why your 42 MCAT may face a slew of rejections.
 
ahmedqman said:
For some reason, this post reminds me of the types of formulas Hollinger uses for his ESPN ratings and articles.

Maybe I've watched too much NBA lately...
Click to expand...

I agree, 100%. I used to have Insider with a subscription to ESPN the magazine, and I always thought Hollinger was a one of a kind guy... a sports nerd, if there is a such thing. Someone who has some kind of background in statistics applying equations and probability rules to real-life situations and attempting to make it fit the current data in order to be able to predict the future... in professional basketball. It's quite a paradox!
 
Hey guys,

Can someone tell me what exactly is the LizzyM score? This is the first time I've encounter this term.

Thanks!!
 
I know... but I'm just wondering what it means or how this formula was derived...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

ZombieDante
Is it worth correcting my AMCAS at this point?
Replies
2
Views
1K
LizzyM
LizzyM
biscuit28
New LOR at this point in the cycle
Replies
2
Views
353
biscuit28
biscuit28
haikuhero
Inflection point to justify cost difference of a medical school
Replies
6
Views
729
Angus Avagadro
Angus Avagadro
D
WAMC Improved MCAT Score (+10 points)
Replies
2
Views
604
Goro
Goro
S
SDN Article: New Guide from Apply Point for Med School Applications
Replies
0
Views
330
Student Doctor Network
S
Top