Would you pap a 21 year old who is

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Denial

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not sexually active?
No risk factors?
I have read all the NIH guidelines and states that pap at 18 or when sexual activity begins!
So would you pap a 24 year old virgin?

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Denial said:
not sexually active?
No risk factors?
I have read all the NIH guidelines and states that pap at 18 or when sexual activity begins!
So would you pap a 24 year old virgin?

If you believe it when a 21 yo says she is not sexually active, you may also believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny.
 
kas23 said:
If you believe it when a 21 yo says she is not sexually active, you may also believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny.
i completely agree with kas. a healthy dose of skepticism is important. for example, i don't think the pill would even be on the market if it actually failed even 25% of the time that a patient told me she miraculously got pregnant even though she ALWAYS took her pill when she was supposed to. when you're dealing with issues as charged as sexuality and sexual practices, you need to expect some duplicity.
 
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kas23 said:
If you believe it when a 21 yo says she is not sexually active, you may also believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny.
what if it is a immigrant like me ?
anyway I found the answer!
yes you do pap them anyway according to ACOG guidelines.
but you use a pediatric speculum.
thanx people . This was my latest mistaken notion that was corrected.
 
I didn't get a pap until I was 22 because I got married a few months earlier when I was 21 and yes, I was a virgin. Of course you must always maintain a degree of skepticism, but it's unfortunate that you wouldn't believe a patient who told you she was not sexually active. There are plenty of people who remain abstinent until marriage. I have a friend who ran into serious problems with her doc not believing her; she was forced to go on birth control when given a medicine that is a possible teratogen, even though she was not sexually active and didn't plan to be until she was married, and she didn't have any desire to be on birth control. There are people from other religious and cultural backgrounds than your own, and as a doctor you ought to respect that.

Denial, what are the guidelines? At what age should a woman start having paps even if she remains a virgin? Heck, you could have a nun for a patient (hopefully you'd believe her when she says she isn't sexually active), so you'd have to start at some age.
 
tigress said:
I didn't get a pap until I was 22 because I got married a few months earlier when I was 21 and yes, I was a virgin. Of course you must always maintain a degree of skepticism, but it's unfortunate that you wouldn't believe a patient who told you she was not sexually active. There are plenty of people who remain abstinent until marriage. I have a friend who ran into serious problems with her doc not believing her; she was forced to go on birth control when given a medicine that is a possible teratogen, even though she was not sexually active and didn't plan to be until she was married, and she didn't have any desire to be on birth control. There are people from other religious and cultural backgrounds than your own, and as a doctor you ought to respect that.

Denial, what are the guidelines? At what age should a woman start having paps even if she remains a virgin? Heck, you could have a nun for a patient (hopefully you'd believe her when she says she isn't sexually active), so you'd have to start at some age.

I respect the fact that some people may be telling the truth. But, it is a lot more safe to err on the side of caution. All it takes is you missing one brewing cervical cancer to have you a$$ handed to you.

And people's definitions of virgin are not always the same as yours. Suppose a girl was raped at the age of 15. She may still consider herself a "virgin." Or, the girl who had sex at a very young age when extremely drunk and then later became a "born-again" Christian. She may also consider herself a virgin "in the eyes of God," but technically she is not. Just do the Pap, it may save you a ton of grief (and money/license) in the future.

As for the case of Accutane (if that truly what it was), just try explaining to the Jury why you did not prescribe birth control when the infant with lobster arms is crying right in front of them. That will be the last time you make that mistake.
 
kas23 said:
As for the case of Accutane (if that truly what it was), just try explaining to the Jury why you did not prescribe birth control when the infant with lobster arms is crying right in front of them. That will be the last time you make that mistake.

I understand what you're saying, but you may try to clarify with the patient ("have you ever had sex? It's important for your health that I know this").

It was not Accutane. The point is she needed this medication, but she did not want to go on birth control. And there are plenty of reasons to not want to be on birth control. Even though side effects are uncommon, they exist, and sometimes after stopping it can take quite a while for a woman to begin ovulating normally, which isn't so great. So if a woman needs a medication and assures you that she is not sexually active, does it make sense to insist she take a different medication as well? Perhaps there should be some sort of way for the woman to sign something that says she knows the risks?

I just know a few women who have felt very offended by a doctor not believing them when they say they are not sexually active. I even know a woman who went to the OB/GYN for a routine checkup and an NP found out she wasn't on birth control and wasn't married or in a long-term relationship and basically lectured her and insisted on writing a prescription. It seems to be the general assumption that all adult women are better off on birth control if they aren't actively trying to get pregnant, and I just think this needs to be re-evaluated.
 
I understand what you're saying, but you may try to clarify with the patient ("have you ever had sex? It's important for your health that I know this").

Trouble is that the definition of "sex" seems to vary widely (just as the definition of virgin does). For example, several years ago I had an acquaintance claimed she was a virgin yet was sexually active. How? She only had anal intercourse, which she defined as sex (rightfully so) but stated that only vaginal intercourse resulted in losing one's virginity. Now she may not need a Pap, but then my contention (in an earlier discussion with a user) was that a patient does not need vaginal penetration to acquire HPV nor is HPV the only cause of cervical dysplasia/CA, even though the other risks are rare. Only a few years ago teenagers were asked if oral sex was sex, and the vast majority said it wasn't (heck, if our President at the time didn't think it was, why should they?).

Therefore, unfortunately we need to be very explicit when taking a history, and even knowing slang terms for behaviors in the culture in which we are working. So instead of asking a patient whether or she has had sex, you must specifically ask about vaginal or anal penetration, oral sex (try the term blow jobs, most people seem to understand that term).

While I am a believe in the idiom that "patients lie", I know that sometimes we just aren't speaking the same language. I too have been victim of the overzealous healthcare provider: in college the University Health Center NP tried to force some condoms on me when I was visiting for something benign (like a cold). She just couldn't understand that there might be some women out there who aren't sexually active. :rolleyes:
 
kas23 said:
If you believe it when a 21 yo says she is not sexually active, you may also believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny.

The subject of this thread caught my eye, and I was appalled (but not surprised) when I read your comment.

This same perception was held by the doctor my daughter saw for her first exam, at age 24. When her virginity was finally 'established', she had to endure being accused of lesbianism. :mad:

No one should be subjected to that much pain and humiliation, especially not from their health care provider. It's true that some people lie and that some have varying definitions/perceptions, but everyone should be treated with dignity and respect. . . even virgins.
 
dakko said:
The subject of this thread caught my eye, and I was appalled (but not surprised) when I read your comment.

This same perception was held by the doctor my daughter saw for her first exam, at age 24. When her virginity was finally 'established', she had to endure being accused of lesbianism. :mad:

No one should be subjected to that much pain and humiliation, especially not from their health care provider. It's true that some people lie and that some have varying definitions/perceptions, but everyone should be treated with dignity and respect. . . even virgins.

I don't undestand why you were "appalled." That is a strong word.

Second guessing, as a general habit, may offend people. However, if I discovered high-grade cervical dysplasia in one single woman who claimed she was a virgin (say, out of 100 "claimers") and I potentially saved her life, then all that second guessing was worth it.

This isn't about offending people. It is about saving people's lives. And I know there are ways to talk about this subject while maintaining somebodies dignity/integrity. Why you brought up your daughter being accussed of being a lesbian is beyond me. Why she had to have her virginity "established" is also a mystery to me. She should have just had a Pap. End of story. Nobody offended.
 
Interesting discussions. I agree about how everyone should be treated with dignity and respect. And a lot of people do lie about a lot of things that are medically related, I've seen my father do the same thing, concerning his diet and exercise regimen as related to hypertension.

At the same time, you have to realize that health care providers have legal obligations, and most of the time they are just trying to protect themselves or their institutions from lawsuits. I had surgery when I was 19, and on the morning of the surgery I was handed a cup and told to provide a urine sample for a pregnancy test. There was no questioning about my sexual history, and I got the impression that this was routine for most young women having abdominal surgery. I thought it was a good thing later, but at the time I was embarrassed, feeling like no one had even bothered to ask me if I might be pregnant.

But it's a simple test that can save a lot of people a lot of problems later on, and I think pap smears are similar. Most people are having a pelvic anyway, and it takes less than a minute to obtain a pap smear. If nothing is found, then fine. But if something is discovered early, most people would be eternally grateful.
 
There was no questioning about my sexual history, and I got the impression that this was routine for most young women having abdominal surgery. I thought it was a good thing later, but at the time I was embarrassed, feeling like no one had even bothered to ask me if I might be pregnant.

Because the answer would have been irrelevant in this setting.

and it takes less than a minute to obtain a pap smear. If nothing is found, then fine. But if something is discovered early, most people would be eternally grateful.

Well, there are two reasons not to do a pap if the guidelines don't recommend it (assuming that smarter people than us wrote those):

- no test is perfect. While false positive paps are pretty uncommon, you can kick of an avalanche of anxiety and additional testing if you had one. (with any screening test, the likelihood of finding a true positive result has to exceed the potential harm of a false positive result. That's why we don't do screening mammo on 30yr olds without risk factors)

- the $180 bill the patient will receive from the pathology lab for a service that was medically not necessary. (many 21 year olds have crappy health insurance with high deductibles, if state law doesn't mandate exemption from the deductible for the pap, the patient might be stuck with it).
 
Kimberli Cox said:
Trouble is that the definition of "sex" seems to vary widely (just as the definition of virgin does). For example, several years ago I had an acquaintance claimed she was a virgin yet was sexually active. How? She only had anal intercourse, which she defined as sex (rightfully so) but stated that only vaginal intercourse resulted in losing one's virginity. Now she may not need a Pap, but then my contention (in an earlier discussion with a user) was that a patient does not need vaginal penetration to acquire HPV nor is HPV the only cause of cervical dysplasia/CA, even though the other risks are rare. Only a few years ago teenagers were asked if oral sex was sex, and the vast majority said it wasn't (heck, if our President at the time didn't think it was, why should they?).

Therefore, unfortunately we need to be very explicit when taking a history, and even knowing slang terms for behaviors in the culture in which we are working. So instead of asking a patient whether or she has had sex, you must specifically ask about vaginal or anal penetration, oral sex (try the term blow jobs, most people seem to understand that term).

While I am a believe in the idiom that "patients lie", I know that sometimes we just aren't speaking the same language. I too have been victim of the overzealous healthcare provider: in college the University Health Center NP tried to force some condoms on me when I was visiting for something benign (like a cold). She just couldn't understand that there might be some women out there who aren't sexually active. :rolleyes:

Okay, I realize I must be very naive, but I don't think I'm all that sheltered. People really think that anal sex isn't sex? And that they're still virgins? I had read that people don't consider oral sex to be sex (which I was also a bit surprised about).

I'm just a pre-med with a husband in med school. I'm not so naive as to not know about what kinds of sexual activities people engage in, to what degree and at what age, but it seems med school will be eye-opening in terms of my exposure to attitudes about sex.

I think I asked earlier, but what are the actual guidelines regarding paps? I suppose I can go look them up myself. Anyway, it's not that I think young women who aren't sexually active shouldn't be examined, I just hope doctors will be respectful enough to consider the possibility that they are actually telling the truth.
 
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Why must it be pain and humiliation to be "accused" of being a lesbian? What about the dignity and respect that lesbians deserve? Being asked about sexual orientation should not be considered something to endure, but rather part of good medical practice. Those who are heterosexuals should be mature enough to politely state as much to their physician and move on. There's no harm in asking, yet there can be unfortunate consequences for assuming or not asking at all.
 
jbish said:
Why must it be pain and humiliation to be "accused" of being a lesbian? What about the dignity and respect that lesbians deserve? Being asked about sexual orientation should not be considered something to endure, but rather part of good medical practice. Those who are heterosexuals should be mature enough to politely state as much to their physician and move on. There's no harm in asking, yet there can be unfortunate consequences for assuming or not asking at all.

This is a good point, but it depends on how the doctor asked her. If he said "oh, so you must be a lesbian," I could see how that would be hurtful. But simply asking, "Are you heterosexual?" would seem to be an appropriate question in this situation.
 
jbish said:
Why must it be pain and humiliation to be "accused" of being a lesbian? What about the dignity and respect that lesbians deserve? Being asked about sexual orientation should not be considered something to endure, but rather part of good medical practice. Those who are heterosexuals should be mature enough to politely state as much to their physician and move on. There's no harm in asking, yet there can be unfortunate consequences for assuming or not asking at all.

I knew this was going to come. I agree, but I wasn't going to touch it.
 
Denial said:
I have read all the NIH guidelines and states that pap at 18 or when sexual activity begins!

You say it yourself. Think about it. 18 OR sexually active. A 21 year old is over 18 regardless of her sexual activity. Therefore you pap her. It doesn't mean only pap 18 year olds. It means pap if they are 18 or older. Is this a joke?
 
Denial said:
not sexually active?
No risk factors?
I have read all the NIH guidelines and states that pap at 18 or when sexual activity begins!
So would you pap a 24 year old virgin?

you pap a woman if she's 18 or older, or if she is sexually active, whichever comes first. jeez...

even virgins need surveillance for cervical cancer...
 
tigress said:
Okay, I realize I must be very naive, but I don't think I'm all that sheltered. People really think that anal sex isn't sex? And that they're still virgins? I had read that people don't consider oral sex to be sex (which I was also a bit surprised about).

I know...to say I was flabbergasted at that definition would be putting it mildly. I figured she was an anomaly but I've heard of more since then.
 
I don't want completely hijack the topic, but I have a related question.

Is it a mandated policy that patients must be subjected to a pelvic exam prior to prescribing or renewing a prescription for oral contraceptives?

I ask because my wife's just ran out, and her doctor wants her to come in for an "exam" before renewing it, and she absolutely does not want to have another pelvic exam done (She just had one six months ago!). She's 24, doesn't smoke and has none of the risk-factors contraindicating the prescription that I am aware of. Add that to the fact that we are and have always had a monogamous relationship, and it seems to me that having another one so soon seems to be beyond cautions, preventative healthcare.
 
http://caonline.amcancersoc.org/cgi/content/full/52/6/342

CA Cancer J Clin 2002; 52:342-362
© 2002 American Cancer Society


American Cancer Society Guideline for the Early Detection of Cervical Neoplasia and Cancer


A summary from the NCI website

• Cervical cancer screening should begin approximately three years after a woman begins having sexual intercourse, but no later than at 21 years old.
• Experts recommend waiting approximately three years following the initiation of sexual activity because transient HPV infections and cervical cell changes that are not significant are common and it takes years for a significant abnormality or cancer to develop. Cervical cancer is extremely rare in women under the age of 25.
• Women should have a Pap test at least once every three years.
• Women 65 to 70 years of age who have had at least three normal Pap tests and no abnormal Pap tests in the last 10 years may decide, upon consultation with their healthcare provider, to stop cervical cancer screening.
• Women who have had a total hysterectomy (removal of the uterus and cervix) do not need to undergo cervical cancer screening, unless the surgery was done as a treatment for cervical precancer or cancer.
• Women should seek expert medical advice about when they should begin screening, how often they should be screened, and when they can discontinue cervical screenings, especially if they are at higher than average risk of cervical cancer due to factors such as HIV infection.


And here is a the paragraph on when to start (emphasis added)

When to Start Screening

Recommendation

Cervical cancer screening should begin approximately three years after the onset of vaginal intercourse. Screening should begin no later than 21 years of age. It is critical that adolescents who may not need a cervical cytology test obtain appropriate preventive health care, including assessment of health risks, contraception, and prevention counseling, screening and treatment of sexually transmitted diseases. The need for cervical cancer screening should not be the basis for the onset of gynecologic care.

Rationale

The published and unpublished data on the incidence of cervical cancer and the natural history of HPV infection and of low- and high-grade cervical lesions suggest that there is little risk of missing an important cervical lesion until three to five years after initial exposure to HPV (Evidence section). Thus, cervical cytology screening in adolescents is unlikely to add appreciable benefits within the first three years following onset of vaginal intercourse. It is the intent of the ACS that offering screening "approximately" three years after the onset of sexual intercourse will avoid denial of health insurance coverage for teens and young women who undergo their first cytology test prior to the suggested three years. However, the concern is that screening before the three-year-period may result in an overdiagnosis of cervical lesions that will regress spontaneously, leading to inappropriate intervention which may result in more harm than good. Because the risk of HPV transmission to the cervix is low for other types of sexual activity, the onset of vaginal sexual intercourse has been selected as the historical marker for initiating cervical cytology screening.

An upper age limit for when to initiate screening is needed for providers who don’t ask patients about their sexual history and for adolescents who are unable or unwilling to disclose prior consensual and/or noncon-sensual intercourse. Such an upper age limit ensures that young women, including victims of sexual abuse, are protected.

In cases where a history of sexual abuse has been established, there is a lack of evidence to support earlier cervical screening for victims of prepubescent sexual abuse. Abuse victims who have had vaginal intercourse, especially post-puberty, may be at increased risk of HPV infection and cervical lesions and should be referred for screening once they are psychologically and physically ready (i.e., post-puberty) by a provider who has experience and sensitivity for working with abused adolescents.

Provider discretion and patient choice following counseling should be used to guide the initiation of cervical cytology screening in young women aged 21 and older who have never had vaginal sexual intercourse and for whom the absence of a history of sexual abuse is certain.

Young women who are infected with HIV and/or are immunocompromised should follow the US Public Health System Guide-lines, i.e., obtain a Pap test twice in the first year after diagnosis of HIV infection and, if the results are normal, annually thereafter

CA Cancer J Clin 2002; 52:342-362
© 2002 American Cancer Society
 
Amxcvbcv said:
Is it a mandated policy that patients must be subjected to a pelvic exam prior to prescribing or renewing a prescription for oral contraceptives?

I ask because my wife's just ran out, and her doctor wants her to come in for an "exam" before renewing it, and she absolutely does not want to have another pelvic exam done (She just had one six months ago!). She's 24, doesn't smoke and has none of the risk-factors contraindicating the prescription that I am aware of. Add that to the fact that we are and have always had a monogamous relationship, and it seems to me that having another one so soon seems to be beyond cautions, preventative healthcare.

Seems like a bit of overkill to me too. Perhaps her physician doesn't realize she just had one 6 months ago? My current Ob-Gyn nor any other ever made me have an exam for a refill script. I'm not sure your insurance carrier would cover it either since I think 1 routine pelvic/Pap per year is standard coverage. I would clarify it with him as it doesn't seem appropriate.
 
Amxcvbcv said:
I don't want completely hijack the topic, but I have a related question.

Is it a mandated policy that patients must be subjected to a pelvic exam prior to prescribing or renewing a prescription for oral contraceptives?

I ask because my wife's just ran out, and her doctor wants her to come in for an "exam" before renewing it, and she absolutely does not want to have another pelvic exam done (She just had one six months ago!). She's 24, doesn't smoke and has none of the risk-factors contraindicating the prescription that I am aware of. Add that to the fact that we are and have always had a monogamous relationship, and it seems to me that having another one so soon seems to be beyond cautions, preventative healthcare.

was her last pap normal?
 
Yes.

She had one before we both got married, when she was 21 or so and had another one six months ago. They were done by different doctors, but as far as we both know they were normal.
 
the most simple thing would be to ask the doctor why. what jumped into my mind as a possible indication was that the initial pap may have had some inflammatory changes, which would be an indication for a repeat after the inflamm had a chance to clear up. but, nobody on here will be able to give accurate info, so go direct to the source
 
Kimberli Cox said:
She only had anal intercourse, which she defined as sex (rightfully so) but stated that only vaginal intercourse resulted in losing one's virginity. Now she may not need a Pap, but then my contention (in an earlier discussion with a user) was that a patient does not need vaginal penetration to acquire HPV nor is HPV the only cause of cervical dysplasia/CA, even though the other risks are rare. QUOTE]

Speaking of Paps and anal sex, the latest issue American Family Physician (in the letters section) outlines procedures for doing anal paps, mainly for men who are on the recipient end of anal sex -- but it would seem to apply equally to women who engage in anal sex as well...dysplasia from HPV likes to hang out in the rectoanal junction, it seems...
 
-- but it would seem to apply equally to women who engage in anal sex as well...dysplasia from HPV likes to hang out in the rectoanal junction, it seems...


Who would have thought that the world ever needed to worry about guidelines for: 'vaginal virgin, anal+'.

Isn't HPV involved in the type of rectal carcinoma occasionally seen in HIV+ patients ?
 
neilc said:
the most simple thing would be to ask the doctor why. what jumped into my mind as a possible indication was that the initial pap may have had some inflammatory changes, which would be an indication for a repeat after the inflamm had a chance to clear up. but, nobody on here will be able to give accurate info, so go direct to the source

It turns out her doc didn't want to do another pelvic exam; she just wanted to milk us for another office visit.

We've gone a different route, though. :cool:
 
Denial said:
not sexually active?
No risk factors?
I have read all the NIH guidelines and states that pap at 18 or when sexual activity begins!
So would you pap a 24 year old virgin?

I definately would....18+ or sexually active, I have to abide by the guidelines. What if shortly after her last visit, she wakes up with some type of very low grade cervical cancer and my documents read "NO PAP"....Lawyers would love that part. So, just to back my butt, I would, UNLESS, the pt. denies. And that I will document too.
 
This is somewhat of a hijack so I apologize but I have to rant about it. I take oral contraceptives and I went in for my annual exam to a new physician a couple of months ago. She tested me for STDs without even asking about my sexual history or if I was having symptoms that would suggest the need for such tests. I got a large bill from the lab that my insurance would not pay. Needless to say, I was pissed. Additionally, she wouldn't write a full year worth of the pill because they wanted me to come in for blood pressure checks (yes, they charge for it). I'm 24, don't smoke, I'm in shape, and no other physician ever required me to do that. Is there a valid reason for her wanting me to do that or is it just to milk more visits? I know I'll never go to that physician again but I'm still pissed.
 
Brain said:
This is somewhat of a hijack so I apologize but I have to rant about it. I take oral contraceptives and I went in for my annual exam to a new physician a couple of months ago. She tested me for STDs without even asking about my sexual history or if I was having symptoms that would suggest the need for such tests. I got a large bill from the lab that my insurance would not pay. Needless to say, I was pissed. Additionally, she wouldn't write a full year worth of the pill because they wanted me to come in for blood pressure checks (yes, they charge for it). I'm 24, don't smoke, I'm in shape, and no other physician ever required me to do that. Is there a valid reason for her wanting me to do that or is it just to milk more visits? I know I'll never go to that physician again but I'm still pissed.
There's no good reason for more often than q/year rechecks in young healthy non-smoking woman on OCPs. (don't know the guidelines just what most OB/Gyn's do) At Maricopa County Hospital (Phoenix) they routinely give post-partum women a Rxs for a 12-month supply of OCPs. (Written as Dispense: twelve packs. Not as twelve refills)

It sounds like your physician is in the habit of creating medical necessity where there is none to keep their schedule full of short simple rechecks for which they can bill for between $40-200.

I had this problem with an FP and quickly switched to another provider when his motives became clear.

It's also not cool/professional/polite that they ordered tests on you without explaining their necessity and/or getting consent that you were financially liable for. Depending on how long it's been since this episode you should write a clear letter to the office stating that the testing was done without your authorization/consent. I think your insurance company would agree that you're not liable. When you enter the hospital it's a different matter because your admit paperwork usually contains a clause you sign that states you'll pay for anything the doctors feel is medically necessary and insurance doesn't cover. Most outpatient doctors don't have patients sign these sorts of documents.

J.
 
Brain said:
This is somewhat of a hijack so I apologize but I have to rant about it. I take oral contraceptives and I went in for my annual exam to a new physician a couple of months ago. She tested me for STDs without even asking about my sexual history or if I was having symptoms that would suggest the need for such tests. I got a large bill from the lab that my insurance would not pay. Needless to say, I was pissed. Additionally, she wouldn't write a full year worth of the pill because they wanted me to come in for blood pressure checks (yes, they charge for it). I'm 24, don't smoke, I'm in shape, and no other physician ever required me to do that. Is there a valid reason for her wanting me to do that or is it just to milk more visits? I know I'll never go to that physician again but I'm still pissed.

that seems very inappropriate. my insurance company test EVERY female under 26 years old for chlamydia if they visit an obgybn regardless of their symtpoms, reason of visit, sexual history, etc. every year i get my letter in the mail and surprise, surprise! I don't have chlamydia! (only had sex with my husband who in turn has only had sex with me.) But which ever doctor or nurse I see always tells me beforehand that they are going to do the test and explains that they do so because of the consequences and high prevalence of undetected PID. Most importantly though, my insurance company pays for it. Can you file a complaint with some agency or anything? I mean, I certainly don't think it's malpractice, but it's definitely not good practice, either.
 
Maybe your blood pressure was a little on the high side? I think the most recent guidelines say anything over 130/80 needs to be followed up. I just cant imagine, although I am sure there are docs out there, that are trying to build their wallets with blood pressure checks. Usually when i schedule someone for a follow up appointment, there is a reason behind it.

Also, in regards to doing paps on women 18 or older, even if they are virgins. A very sad story, we had a 19 y/o who had clear cell cervical cancer diagnosed at age 17. No history of DES exposure or sexual activity, so....the bottom line is....better safe than sorry.
 
Mybell68 said:
so....the bottom line is....better safe than sorry.

In reality, medicine does not work like this. You have to remember that although these very very rare and unusual and unfortunate things happen, they cannot dictate your practice. First of all, there are financial issues. Insurance companies do not pay for procedures that are not indicated. Second of all, if we started doing a pap on every 16 or 17 year old with no risk factors, it would limit the amount of time that doctors can see other patients. With the "better safe than sorry" reasoning, you would order a head CT every time someone came in with a migraine headache because there is always a slight chance that the patient may have a ruptured aneurysm or a brain tumor. Or you may start ordering chest xrays in every asymptomatic smoker because you may pick up a lung mass. It is just plain ridiculous to do these things.
 
kas23 said:
If you believe it when a 21 yo says she is not sexually active, you may also believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny.

I was a virgin till I was 20. the reasons? I wanted no children nor std's.

As far as pap is concerned, it was a requirement to get one before going on the pill. when I was on the pill (now I'm on depo), it was used for regulating my periods, because I would get really bad cramps.
 
SMW83 said:
I was a virgin till I was 20. the reasons? I wanted no children nor std's.
By "virgin" do you mean no sexual activity whatsoever, or just not intercourse? HPV can still be spread by oral sex and by manually stimulation, although the risk is less than intercourse.
 
No doctor can exam you without your consent.

There is nothing wrong with practicing abstinence. I'd rather be safe but doubted by others than sexually active but at risk. I didn't know any man until I married my husband, and I'm proud of myself.
 
scholes said:
SMW83 said:
I was a virgin till I was 20. the reasons? I wanted no children nor std's.
By "virgin" do you mean no sexual activity whatsoever, or just not intercourse? HPV can still be spread by oral sex and by manually stimulation, although the risk is less than intercourse.

"virgin" as in no intercourse no oral no nothing.

just wasn't interested in catching anything that could affect me in the negative (i.e. infertility) in the long term.
 
This was discussed a bit earlier in this thread, but I have a question about the necessity of prescribing birth control when a doctor puts a female patient on a possible teratogenic medication. A doctor can prescribe a medication, but he/she cannot force the patient to actually take the medication. So if you suspect that a patient is lying about not being sexually active, could you not just explain to her that you are going to prescribe the medication...and why you are going to do so. That way the choice is hers whether or not to get it filled and actually take the meds? It doesn't cost the patient anything more to get the prescription unless she gets it filled, correct? The physician doesn't have to come right out and say, "I don't believe you." Will a pharmacy not fill a prescription for Accutane, or another drug with possible teratogenic side effects, without a birth control prescription? Of course, it would be difficult to give an okay to refill that same medication if you had knowledge that the patient had not been taking the birth control. But wouldn't this save unnecessary feelings of hurt and embarrassment for the patient initially, while the doctor is still doing everything in his/her power to prevent the adverse side effects?
 
I don't understand why people get so upset if their doctor wants to give them an OCP when they say they are not sexually active (for accutane, etc) .. The point is not that the doctor doesn't believe you .. but that your decision can be changed at any time... and if when you changed your mind you happened to be on accutane when you got pregnant -- then that would be bad. That's all it's protecting against. Basically acknowledging that you have free will and may exercise it.. whatever ideals you had today.. even if you swear by them-- you may change your mind. Just as you once made your current decision. Noone is saying you will change your mind. Noone is saying you won't. We are only protecting against the fact that you *can* change your mind.

hmm.. well I should be studying :) step 2 coming up in a few days. cant' wait to not be studying anymore (ie writing on SDN all the time!!)
take care!





chicadehuskers said:
This was discussed a bit earlier in this thread, but I have a question about the necessity of prescribing birth control when a doctor puts a female patient on a possible teratogenic medication. A doctor can prescribe a medication, but he/she cannot force the patient to actually take the medication. So if you suspect that a patient is lying about not being sexually active, could you not just explain to her that you are going to prescribe the medication...and why you are going to do so. That way the choice is hers whether or not to get it filled and actually take the meds? It doesn't cost the patient anything more to get the prescription unless she gets it filled, correct? The physician doesn't have to come right out and say, "I don't believe you." Will a pharmacy not fill a prescription for Accutane, or another drug with possible teratogenic side effects, without a birth control prescription? Of course, it would be difficult to give an okay to refill that same medication if you had knowledge that the patient had not been taking the birth control. But wouldn't this save unnecessary feelings of hurt and embarrassment for the patient initially, while the doctor is still doing everything in his/her power to prevent the adverse side effects?
 
tigress said:
I didn't get a pap until I was 22 because I got married a few months earlier when I was 21 and yes, I was a virgin. Of course you must always maintain a degree of skepticism, but it's unfortunate that you wouldn't believe a patient who told you she was not sexually active. There are plenty of people who remain abstinent until marriage.

tigress - I totally agree with you. I believe in abstinence until marriage, and I am a 27 year old virgin. I have been very offended at gyn appointments when it is obvious that the physician does not believe me. I have even had to take pregnancy tests! I told them that I refused to pay for it, but I think my insurance did anyway. If it were anything invasive, I would have refused it all together.

I think this type of attitude just breaks down the physician-patient relationship. If they obviously don't trust anything that I am saying anyway, why bother?
 
Okay, my guy friend (who's in med school) and I were discussing this thread just now and he encouraged me to tell you my story. It's your call if you follow it or not.

I am 20 years old and I am a virgin...I hadn't done anything related to sex. I needed to get the pill so I went to see a gyn. She just thought that since I was 20 I was sexually active so she did everything ready for a pap smear. She started trying to put the speculum inside of me but she could sense it hurt really bad so when she had been trying for a while she finally asked me if I was a virgin. so when I told her she stopped and said "I'm sorry for having put you through this, since you're not sexually active we don't do this"
But this actually hurt for a couple of days. So please do think twice before doing a pap smear on someone who's not sexually active... it's not pleasant.
 
This is why they teach us to ask the patient for a description of "sexual activity" - what type (oral, anal, vaginal)?, sexual orientation, lifetime partners, etc.
A pap should be done anyways...can't you develop cancer withou any prior engagement in sexual activity?
 
kas23 said:
If you believe it when a 21 yo says she is not sexually active, you may also believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny.

There are some out there who ARE virgins...
 
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