would you teach a few lecture at a diploma mill?

[R xxx]

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Maybe he is trying to tell us that they both go to the same school--lol

You need to stop stalking people owlegrad

 

[xiphoid2010]

I read this whole thread and have yet to see a coherent/logical definition of "diploma mill."

I think we all know what a diploma mill school is. While minor details might differ from one to another, the general image it conjures up is the same: new school that was built to capitalize on the pharmacy gold rush by uninformed public, charges high tuition, lower qualifications to attract students denied by more selective schools, faculty staff is usually of a lower caliber as well as they have a hard time attracting the more prestigious people.

As a result, average quality of students are usually lower, and it shows during rotations. Many have difficulty finding good rotation sites locally because people who knows or got burned refuse to take students from there. I can imagine NAPLEX passing rate might be lower, but NAPLEX is so easy, it's hard to imagine even many C student from these schools failing. % of students going into retail (because it's the only job option available) is probably higher than most other schools, and the lower % of students getting into residency is telling due to competitive nature of the process.

Everyone can argue about details and exceptions to the rules, and whether a particular school (especially if he/she is in it) is a diploma mill. But we can all agree that they exist, and is driving down the quality of the education and at huge expense of their students.

 

[PharmaTope]

i would never compromise my own beliefs to put "teacher" on my resume.

if you support these diploma mills by giving them clinical rotation sites as a preceptor, then you are just as part of the problem as any of these schools.

i say do not support them in any way possible

 

[xiphoid2010]

I had to google that one. I have no idea what samuri was trying to get at though.

No idea either. Had to google that one up too. LOL.

 

[xiphoid2010]

i would never compromise my own beliefs to put "teacher" on my resume.

if you support these diploma mills by giving them clinical rotation sites as a preceptor, then you are just as part of the problem as any of these schools.

i say do not support them in any way possible

I think you may represent the sentiment of majority of preceptors, whether on principle or dreading the bad students. My RPD was even more out-spoken. When one of the diploma mill called about setting up rotations, she gave them an ear-full and capped it off with "you have no reason to exist". She's mostly right, but there are probably a few good student there that suffered along with the rest because of this.

 

[PharmDstudent]

Low NAPLEX pass rates? Every school I can think of that has had that problem has been an established/well known program.

Exactly. Passing rates were <80% at HBCUs and Puerto Rico in 2010... and that's about it. So I guess it's minority schools that are the "****ty colleges of pharmacy" then, right? Well... so I guess no one should go to an HBCU or Puerto Rico, because those are the "****ty colleges of pharmacy". 🙄

I didn't want to have my score reported by school, but I decided to at the last minute, because I thought it might help the average. Maybe it did, may it didn't?
"So anyway"... score reporting is optional, I believe.

 

[confettiflyer]

I think we all know what a diploma mill school is. While minor details might differ from one to another, the general image it conjures up is the same: new school that was built to capitalize on the pharmacy gold rush by uninformed public, charges high tuition, lower qualifications to attract students denied by more selective schools, faculty staff is usually of a lower caliber as well as they have a hard time attracting the more prestigious people.

As a result, average quality of students are usually lower, and it shows during rotations. Many have difficulty finding good rotation sites locally because people who knows or got burned refuse to take students from there. I can imagine NAPLEX passing rate might be lower, but NAPLEX is so easy, it's hard to imagine even many C student from these schools failing. % of students going into retail (because it's the only job option available) is probably higher than most other schools, and the lower % of students getting into residency is telling due to competitive nature of the process.

Everyone can argue about details and exceptions to the rules, and whether a particular school (especially if he/she is in it) is a diploma mill. But we can all agree that they exist, and is driving down the quality of the education and at huge expense of their students.

Okay better, but I want objective data not subjective opinions. US News is crap, but at least there's some logical methodology to it. The scientist in me wants hard numbers and facts.

So based on your definition, I want: the school's opening date, average # of years teaching/practicing by its faculty members, tuition data, admission standards, "faculty caliber" as represented by # of publications & conference presentations because i can't think of anything else to represent this, employment percentages (retail vs. all other).

So theoretically we can assign #'s and come up with a numerical "diploma mill" score like a CHADS-2 or something. Like US News, that would be argued for time immemorial... by those at the top of the list vs. those at the bottom (I did it, I claimed academic superiority due to my undergrad, but this was back when I was kind of dumb and an academic snob).

I've always associated "diploma mill" with vocational, for-profit institutions. There aren't many for-profits in pharmacy, in fact I think there's only one.

But back to your original question...just go teach, if you don't do it, either a) they'll find someone else or b) they'll find someone else...the gears of education won't suddenly grind to a halt and the job market gets better because you're standing on principle. Get what you want out of it and move on.

I think I'm going to teach/precept only "diploma mill" kids when I'm practicing just to spite everyone, haha.

 

[PharmaTope]

I think you may represent the sentiment of majority of preceptors, whether on principle or dreading the bad students. My RPD was even more out-spoken. When one of the diploma mill called about setting up rotations, she gave them an ear-full and capped it off with "you have no reason to exist". She's mostly right, but there are probably a few good student there that suffered along with the rest because of this.

one issue is a lot of hospital pharmacy directors welcome these students because the schools pay the pharmacy department for each student. so this generates income into their department. those guys are only worried about covering their own asses than protecting the profession as well.

 

[Lubeckd]

So based on your definition, I want: the school's opening date, average # of years teaching/practicing by its faculty members, tuition data, admission standards, "faculty caliber" as represented by # of publications & conference presentations because i can't think of anything else to represent this, employment percentages (retail vs. all other).

But back to your original question...just go teach, if you don't do it, either a) they'll find someone else or b) they'll find someone else...the gears of education won't suddenly grind to a halt and the job market gets better because you're standing on principle. Get what you want out of it and move on.

I think I'm going to teach/precept only "diploma mill" kids when I'm practicing just to spite everyone, haha.

I think LIU is the oldest school in nyc (We're made at 1886, same year as the Statue of Liberty, and Coke Cola being made) Tuition is 38,000$, a lot of great professors with good publications. And I found out two of my professors were making questions for the broad exams on compounding .etc.

You should take a look at MCPHS, the 2nd oldest school, they have 3 big buildings; stationed 1 block next to Harvard med school. They also have a residency program with Beth isreal hospital where Harvard Doctors actually teach you. In the interview they told us that they grads were first to make big pharmaceutical companies. When I was there I saw a lot of research going on. And they are oldest school in Boston (not Harvard) yet their ranking wasn't so high.

@xiphoid2010, not all new schools are Diploma mills, some schools like University of New England are actually failing a lot of people, and they were --serious-- about being placed top rank in their pharmacy programs.

Their Primary care program was placed top 20. And they are one of the best northeast schools, they have the only medical school up there, and they never had a pharmacy school until recently (like Alaska). UNE was also into finding dosages on Seals, which is one of the newer things.

Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine was also the 2nd oldest Osteopathic medicine school, some schools really just want to make a health science curriculum for the general public.

Then some of them are really diploma mills, you just got to choose which school's mission best represent your interest of being number 1. And which one has competitive admissions process. Most new schools will get better applicants within 3 years, the curriclum will get tighter.

Hopefully I can see SDN's members teaching at new schools make history with the serious schools (Cause if your teaching at a real diploma mill I would disappointed, but o well) also some new schools have affiliation with medical schools program like Thomas Jefferson, UNE, Touro, PCOM, SUNY Buffalo, and you can look into how the process is like.

 

[LazyMooch]

The only Pharmacy school in my state is a diploma mill.

 

[xiphoid2010]

Hopefully I can see SDN's members teaching at new schools make history with the serious schools (Cause if your teaching at a real diploma mill I would disappointed, but o well) also some new schools have affiliation with medical schools program like Thomas Jefferson, UNE, Touro, PCOM, SUNY Buffalo, and you can look into how the process is like.

good post. I think everyone here is smart enough to not equate all new schools to diploma mills. But as you pointed out, some are indeed diploma mills while some might actually sincere about providing a good education.

My original post's question was asking would SDNers here teach at a bona fide diploma mill. (until some tried to usurp the topic using semantics)

 

[confusedandhope]

The only Pharmacy school in my state is a diploma mill.

Is that MCPHS, i heard that was a good school?

 

[Hello2011]

good post. I think everyone here is smart enough to not equate all new schools to diploma mills. But as you pointed out, some are indeed diploma mills while some might actually sincere about providing a good education.

My original post's question was asking would SDNers here teach at a bona fide diploma mill. (until some tried to usurp the topic using semantics)

Can someone please just make a definite list of diploma mill schools so everyone knows where not to go or who to shun. I'd rather have a list than everyone's opinion on what constitutes a diploma mill.

 

[owlegrad]

Can someone please just make a definite list of diploma mill schools so everyone knows where not to go or who to shun. I'd rather have a list than everyone's opinion on what constitutes a diploma mill.

"It's more of a philosophy than a list." - Dilbert

 

[spacecowgirl]

Can someone please just make a definite list of diploma mill schools so everyone knows where not to go or who to shun. I'd rather have a list than everyone's opinion on what constitutes a diploma mill.

The list is an opinion.

 

[Hello2011]

The list is an opinion.

It's too bad noone likes to express their opinions on sdn Lets have some lists!

 

[Ackj]

Hopefully I can see SDN's members teaching at new schools make history with the serious schools (Cause if your teaching at a real diploma mill I would disappointed, but o well) also some new schools have affiliation with medical schools program like Thomas Jefferson, UNE, Touro, PCOM, SUNY Buffalo, and you can look into how the process is like.

I think you're confused here... UB has had their pharmacy school since 1886, iirc. D'Youville is the new school in Buffalo, but I'm pretty sure they aren't affiliated with any medical schools.

 

[Lubeckd]

I think you're confused here... UB has had their pharmacy school since 1886, iirc. D'Youville is the new school in Buffalo, but I'm pretty sure they aren't affiliated with any medical schools.

I'm not confused. I was talking about schools that have medical schools in general, but I guess I should take suny buffalo out of there... But thanks for the correction. I was too lazy to correct it...

 

[Sparda29]

Instead of just bashing new schools, perhaps they should put the old schools up to challenges as well. They should hold a "Clinical Skills Competition" sort of thing, only difference is that all the students in the P4 year have to compete sometime in the beginning of the year.

Those clinical skills get graded and in order for a school to maintain accreditation, 90% of the students must have performed adequately on the test.

And the test shouldn't be some crappy easy thing like the NAPLEX, I'm talking about Final Round at the Clinical Skills Competition at ASHP style.

 

[Lubeckd]

I don't know man, I think the old schools proven themselves already. Fact is, not all of us want to go into clinical afterwards. And reality is, our profession is diverse, and not all of us are going to use our clinical skills or go into residency. I still have a feeling we have a business aura to pharmacist than a health care provider one according the patients. Btw sparda do you know anyone who did a dual degree in MBa/ pharmd or pharmd/pa? In Liu?

 

[cycloketocaine]

And the test shouldn't be some crappy easy thing like the NAPLEX, I'm talking about Final Round at the Clinical Skills Competition at ASHP style.

This comment makes me lol. You have no idea how easy or hard the NAPLEX is.

 

[Pharmacy Kid]

Instead of just bashing new schools, perhaps they should put the old schools up to challenges as well. They should hold a "Clinical Skills Competition" sort of thing, only difference is that all the students in the P4 year have to compete sometime in the beginning of the year.

Those clinical skills get graded and in order for a school to maintain accreditation, 90% of the students must have performed adequately on the test.

And the test shouldn't be some crappy easy thing like the NAPLEX, I'm talking about Final Round at the Clinical Skills Competition at ASHP style.

That's just too labor intensive and time-consuming. You can't have standardized proctors go to every pharmacy school and test every student. You'll also have a lot of schools (old and new) complaining about the process.

 

[owlegrad]

This comment makes me lol. You have no idea how easy or hard the NAPLEX is.

It has a reputation for being easy, right? Of course I have been burned by that before, but still...

 

[owlegrad]

That's just too labor intensive and time-consuming. You can't have standardized proctors go to every pharmacy school and test every student. You'll also have a lot of schools (old and new) complaining about the process.

Have you seen our new journal club forum? Your sig makes me think of it.

 

[confettiflyer]

I don't know man, I think the old schools proven themselves already.

"Past performance does not necessarily predict future returns." -- on every piece of lit when i'm researching funds.

 

[Lubeckd]

"Past performance does not necessarily predict future returns." -- on every piece of lit when i'm researching funds.

no, I meant our grads out in the general public.

 

[LazyMooch]

Is that MCPHS, i heard that was a good school?

Only one in NH, and its a 3 yr program. It has very mixed reviews. The pharmacist at my CVS graduated there and was very iffy about it.

 

[joetrisman]

Instead of just bashing new schools, perhaps they should put the old schools up to challenges as well. They should hold a "Clinical Skills Competition" sort of thing, only difference is that all the students in the P4 year have to compete sometime in the beginning of the year.

Those clinical skills get graded and in order for a school to maintain accreditation, 90% of the students must have performed adequately on the test.

And the test shouldn't be some crappy easy thing like the NAPLEX, I'm talking about Final Round at the Clinical Skills Competition at ASHP style.

There are only two schools in my state. My school is only a few years old while the other is several decades old. I get a lot of flack from their graduates about going to a "diploma mill", but as of this spring, its been nice to say that our school won the Apha National Patient Counseling Competition. Usually ends that conversation pretty quick. My point: schools should not be considered diploma mills based off of their age.

 

[confettiflyer]

There are only two schools in my state. My school is only a few years old while the other is several decades old. I get a lot of flack from their graduates about going to a "diploma mill", but as of this spring, its been nice to say that our school won the Apha National Patient Counseling Competition. Usually ends that conversation pretty quick. My point: schools should not be considered diploma mills based off of their age.

Very cool. Yeah, my friend's hospital stopped hiring students from the established school nearby and went on an intern hiring binge with the new school that opened. No idea why, though.