WOW NO JOBS IN PATHOLOGY

[LBJLA23]

Please stop. We now all feel like a bunch of dummy losers. I am sure your distinguished career at Little Company of Agony Hospital will shame us all.
Such big, big, impressive names— oops, i almost ejaculated.

Relax buddy. Calm down. My point was that not having a chance at Rads after a year of pathology is complete BS. I am a competitive applicant and have a shot. We'll revisit in a year.

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[LBJLA23]

LBJLA, are you not at the start of your 4th year of med school. If so, isn’t there buckets of time to choose a specialty?

Its Oct 4. I already applied to pathology. Too late.

 

[deleted314957]

Jesus, you guys have to decide this stuff early!

 

[jupiterianvibe]

I have interviews at MGH, Brigham, Stanford, UCSF, Hopkins, UPENN, Mayo, etc. I doubt they will have any distrust.

Can you throw a last minute radiology application out there?

 

[LBJLA23]

Can you throw a last minute radiology application out there?

That's something I'm exploring. Also I just learned that you can withdraw from the match by Jan 8 before submitting rank lists and it won't affect you. That way I could apply Rads next year as a new applicant. Decisions decisions....

 

[jupiterianvibe]

That's something I'm exploring. Also I just learned that you can withdraw from the match by Jan 8 before submitting rank lists and it won't affect you. That way I could apply Rads next year as a new applicant. Decisions decisions....

Do you know any radiologists? maybe they would have better advice for you.

 

[pathslides]

That's something I'm exploring. Also I just learned that you can withdraw from the match by Jan 8 before submitting rank lists and it won't affect you. That way I could apply Rads next year as a new applicant. Decisions decisions....

Dude if you actually like path, Are you seriously going to abort everything because of bs doom and gloom you read on a forum?

 

[LBJLA23]

Do you know any radiologists? maybe they would have better advice for you.

I have to talk to my dean and advisor but ya, I should also talk to Rads people

 

[LBJLA23]

Dude if you actually like path, Are you seriously going to abort everything because of bs doom and gloom you read on a forum?

Sure I like Rads and Path but Rads will secure a better future for me it seems! There's negative talk everywhere. In this forum. On reddit. In real life. Its exhausting. I'm geographically restricted too and Rads seems to have a better job market in general. We'll see, no rush though. I can go on my interviews and decide later if I want to bail and pursue Rads next match

 

[ClinPathDO]

You could do a prelim year in medicine or transition year. Give you some to figure it out.

Its Oct 4. I already applied to pathology. Too late.

 

[deleted314957]

can you deal with the military, specifically navy? some folks roll their eyes but the system produces lots of happy campers.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Radiology is heading down the same path as our field. DON'T GO INTO IT. Their future will be eerily similar to our present.

In my neck of the woods, hospitals are starting to bring in Radiology's version of Ameripath. I have seen some good groups shown the door in recent years, replaced with some national outfit. Same for gas.

 

[LBJLA23]

Radiology is heading down the same path as our field. DON'T GO INTO IT. Their future will be eerily similar to our present.

In my neck of the woods, hospitals are starting to bring in Radiology's version of Ameripath. I have seen some good groups shown the door in recent years, replaced with some national outfit. Same for gas.

Even if so, Radiology has always found a way to weather the storm. They have capable leadership. They have the benefit of high volume and increased utilization of imaging which will only further develop as the system is trying to move away from invasive diagnostics. It is also a prodedural field. Its only threat is AI which I don't think will affect me in this lifetime. It won't reach pathology level because it is a more diverse field with more clinical integration, and lets face it, more respect.

 

[deleted314957]

Well, LBJ all you can do is hope . But, I absolutely am damn sure certain and
utterly convinced that the pace of change of things like tech, delivery of service,
payers, employment paradigms will warp the field of medicine beyond what
most would predict today. It will be VERY different for all concerned.

 

[LBJLA23]

Well, LBJ all you can do is hope . But, I absolutely am damn sure certain and
utterly convinced that the pace of change of things like tech, delivery of service,
payers, employment paradigms will warp the field of medicine beyond what
most would predict today. It will be VERY different for all concerned.

I totally agree.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Even if so, Radiology has always found a way to weather the storm. They have capable leadership. They have the benefit of high volume and increased utilization of imaging which will only further develop as the system is trying to move away from invasive diagnostics. It is also a prodedural field. Its only threat is AI which I don't think will affect me in this lifetime. It won't reach pathology level because it is a more diverse field with more clinical integration, and lets face it, more respect.

The field of radiology doesn't have more respect. When you are in the real world you will find that it occupies the low levels of the totem pole with pathology. You will be looked down upon as "not a real doctor" by others. FLEE PATHOLOGY, RADIOLOGY AND GAS NOW! FPRGN

 

[LBJLA23]

The field of radiology doesn't have more respect. When you are in the real world you will find that it occupies the low levels of the totem pole with pathology. You will be looked down upon as "not a real doctor" by others. FLEE PATHOLOGY, RADIOLOGY AND GAS NOW! FPRGN

Completely false but whatever makes you happy.

 

[Dro133]

Completely false but whatever makes you happy.

I think he was being facetious.

 

[PhillyMed777]

The field of radiology doesn't have more respect. When you are in the real world you will find that it occupies the low levels of the totem pole with pathology. You will be looked down upon as "not a real doctor" by others. FLEE PATHOLOGY, RADIOLOGY AND GAS NOW! FPRGN

Im more than happy not being a real doctor because that implies doing social work all day.

In fact, being called not a real doctor is a compliment for me.

 

[Esotsm7]

I have interviews at MGH, Brigham, Stanford, UCSF, Hopkins, UPENN, Mayo, etc. I doubt they will have any distrust.

LBJLA, are you not at the start of your 4th year of med school. If so, isn’t there buckets of time to choose a specialty?

There is plenty of time to choose, I don't know why this guy/gal wants to take up a spot in path when he/she can do a transitional year of medicine if he really wants to do rads...

 

[LBJLA23]

There is plenty of time to choose, I don't know why this guy/gal wants to take up a spot in path when he/she can do a transitional year of medicine if he really wants to do rads...

Are you an MS1? Cuz u clearly don't know how it works. Apps were due Sept 15. "Plenty of time"....nah

 

[dr.weiner]

Are you an MS1? Cuz u clearly don't know how it works. Apps were due Sept 15. "Plenty of time"....nah

MS1 has a point, this is not a good move for many reasons. Not fair to the program or other applicants to take a spot at a good path program when you don't want to be there. That's a recipe for disaster- program will be appropriately upset with you, and you may make serious errors if you are not motivated to work/learn, and the breakup will likely be messy. And you'll have to explain the rest of you life why you switched fields. Best to just switch to rads this year or do a prelim and apply to pgy2 rads spots later, or just sit it out this year and reapply next year.

Anyway best of luck, and thanks for playing. Please refrain from bumping our all caps doom and gloom troll thread on your way out. I hear the radiology forum is great this time of year, might be time to move over there...

 

[LBJLA23]

MS1 has a point, this is not a good move for many reasons. Not fair to the program or other applicants to take a spot at a good path program when you don't want to be there. That's a recipe for disaster- program will be appropriately upset with you, and you may make serious errors if you are not motivated to work/learn, and the breakup will likely be messy. And you'll have to explain the rest of you life why you switched fields. Best to just switch to rads this year or do a prelim and apply to pgy2 rads spots later, or just sit it out this year and reapply next year.

Anyway best of luck, and thanks for playing. Please refrain from bumping our all caps doom and gloom troll thread on your way out. I hear the radiology forum is great this time of year, might be time to move over there...

Nah bruh, this ain't it chief. I'm gonna interview and then we'll see what happens.

 

[Morichka]

IF you are in MED SCHOOL and applying to a PATHOLOGY RESIDENCY PROGRAM DO NOT DO IT!!!!!!!
I REPEAT DO NOT DO IT!!!!!!!!!!! THERE IS NO JOBS OUT HERE
DO NOT SAY YOU WERE NOT WARNED!!!!!!!!

If you look at real data, the job outlook is actually positive, so do not let this person dissuade you. The data (attaches slides) from 2018 are showing significant improvements in the job market, corresponding with the upcoming wave of retirements. These slides were presented at the 2019 CAP Residents Forum meeting.

They also presented the fact that 40% of jobs were located by networking and by cold calling, with the result that 88% (!!) of job searchers finding a job in their preferred geographic location. So if you are lazy, and want a job to be handed to you, yeah, don’t pick this career. It’s only for people who want an excellent lifestyle and are willing to put in a little effort along the way. These are great statistics and go against the messaging on these forums.

 

[clinicallycorrelated]

View attachment 254087 View attachment 254088 View attachment 254089

If you look at real data, the job outlook is actually positive, so do not let this person dissuade you. The data (attaches slides) from 2018 are showing significant improvements in the job market, corresponding with the upcoming wave of retirements. These slides were presented at the 2019 CAP Residents Forum meeting.

They also presented the fact that 40% of jobs were located by networking and by cold calling, with the result that 88% (!!) of job searchers finding a job in their preferred geographic location. So if you are lazy, and want a job to be handed to you, yeah, don’t pick this career. It’s only for people who want an excellent lifestyle and are willing to put in a little effort along the way. These are great statistics and go against the messaging on these forums.

Quantity of jobs does NOT correlate with quality of jobs, which is arguably the most important. Having plenty of ****ty corporate slide mill or god forbid, academic positions, is irrelevant.

 

[Med Director New England]

View attachment 254087 View attachment 254088 View attachment 254089

If you look at real data, the job outlook is actually positive, so do not let this person dissuade you. The data (attaches slides) from 2018 are showing significant improvements in the job market, corresponding with the upcoming wave of retirements. These slides were presented at the 2019 CAP Residents Forum meeting.

They also presented the fact that 40% of jobs were located by networking and by cold calling, with the result that 88% (!!) of job searchers finding a job in their preferred geographic location. So if you are lazy, and want a job to be handed to you, yeah, don’t pick this career. It’s only for people who want an excellent lifestyle and are willing to put in a little effort along the way. These are great statistics and go against the messaging on these forums.

Couple of things -

You think this is really all that good? Well over half of respondents in 2017 and 18 report at least moderate difficulty finding a job.
You also dont think CAP, USCAP, ABP, etc are conflicted parties when it comes to this topic?

I would love to see a slide with the average number of fellowships done by trainees graduating in the 2000s versus now. This data is readily available, why not present this too.

 

[Alteran]

View attachment 254087 View attachment 254088 View attachment 254089

If you look at real data, the job outlook is actually positive, so do not let this person dissuade you. The data (attaches slides) from 2018 are showing significant improvements in the job market, corresponding with the upcoming wave of retirements. These slides were presented at the 2019 CAP Residents Forum meeting.

They also presented the fact that 40% of jobs were located by networking and by cold calling, with the result that 88% (!!) of job searchers finding a job in their preferred geographic location. So if you are lazy, and want a job to be handed to you, yeah, don’t pick this career. It’s only for people who want an excellent lifestyle and are willing to put in a little effort along the way. These are great statistics and go against the messaging on these forums.

I don't know about everyone else, but those figures from the first graph give me some pause. About 1 in 10 had no interview whatsoever. Then, of those who did get an interview, 1 in 5 didn't get a job offer. More disturbing to me is 1 in 4 who appeared to have a job offer didn't accept it for whatever reason. I'm pretty sure this isn't the norm in any other specialty.

 

[Pathological_Liar]

View attachment 254087 View attachment 254088 View attachment 254089

If you look at real data, the job outlook is actually positive, so do not let this person dissuade you. The data (attaches slides) from 2018 are showing significant improvements in the job market, corresponding with the upcoming wave of retirements. These slides were presented at the 2019 CAP Residents Forum meeting.

They also presented the fact that 40% of jobs were located by networking and by cold calling, with the result that 88% (!!) of job searchers finding a job in their preferred geographic location. So if you are lazy, and want a job to be handed to you, yeah, don’t pick this career.

1. Although I agree the trend is a bit reassuring, the majority (63%) of applicants still rate the job market as at least "moderately difficult".

2. 20% of applicants received no offers and fewer than 50% of applicants received multiple offers? People who are on the fence about path due to the job market should just contemplate these numbers for themselves rather than being told what to think. If those seem like good odds to you after 9-10 years of training, then by all means hop onboard. Tangentially, one interesting effect of having just one job offer is it likely exerts significant downward pressure on starting salaries. There have been several posts in the past year on this forum showing starting salaries for new grads to be in the $170-220k range. That's below current family practice starting salaries ($230k), which is 3 years of GME. If you have only one offer, it's hard to negotiate salary with any leverage and it seems starting salaries reflect this. I think path now has probably the worst ratio of starting salary/GME length of any specialty.

3. Networking and cold calling are still a significant component of the job search. To be clear, these strategies exist in every job market. But I think path is a bit exceptional in that applicants are expected to be a full-time self-recruiter rather than having recruiters and employers contacting them, as would ideally be the case in any field with valuable and marketable skillsets. People shame pathology trainees who don't want to cold call employers as if they're just lazy autists. I had to cold call too, but I recognize it as a symptom of a garbage job market rather than an appropriate metric of professional motivation.

 

[Unty]

Agree with this. The job market is not great although people do get jobs. Everyone I know has a job.

This is probably one of the main reasons for dropping US grads going into Path.

I would think companies like Quest are feeling great about having a steady stream of applicants in the job market every year. A friend started at 190k at Quest. That's pretty low. Quest can offer that much because of the oversupply.

I have another friend making 250k for partner. That's crap if you ask me. Partnership.

If you want to get a job in Florida for example, there are only a handful of jobs in pathologyoutlines. If you don't have the particular fellowship the employer is interested in, then you are out of luck and the number of available jobs becomes smaller based on pathologyoutlines alone. Considering pathoutlines is one of the main sources for jobs that says a lot. Sure then your next option is cold calling and networking.

There are jobs where you can join an outpatient biopsy mill, but do you really want to get a job like that out of training. Hey it pays but your skills in every other area of path will decline with a job like that and you will be relegated to outpatient biopsy gigs like Quest for the long haul. However this type of job may be the only choice if it's the only one available in an area you and your family want to live.

Sure you will have to network and make cold calls to find a job but that's telling about the job market. I agree with the above poster with the comment that path graduates have to be self recruiters.

The Path market is not great but it's not horrible. The best jobs are by word of mouth and if you aren't in the loop then sorry you're stuck with pathoutlines with the "several" jobs posted.

If you don't have a connection in a good group, then you're out of luck. So it's best to make as many friends as possible and never burn any bridges.

I think yaah once mentioned he got 100 applications for a job posting. That again proves the current oversupply in the market. There's no doubt there's an oversupply which benefits corporate businesses like Quest.

1. Although I agree the trend is a bit reassuring, the majority (63%) of applicants still rate the job market as at least "moderately difficult".

2. 20% of applicants received no offers and fewer than 50% of applicants received multiple offers? People who are on the fence about path due to the job market should just contemplate these numbers for themselves rather than being told what to think. If those seem like good odds to you after 9-10 years of training, then by all means hop onboard. Tangentially, one interesting effect of having just one job offer is it likely exerts significant downward pressure on starting salaries. There have been several posts in the past year on this forum showing starting salaries for new grads to be in the $170-220k range. That's below current family practice starting salaries ($230k), which is 3 years of GME. If you have only one offer, it's hard to negotiate salary with any leverage and it seems starting salaries reflect this. I think path now has probably the worst ratio of starting salary/GME length of any specialty.

3. Networking and cold calling are still a significant component of the job search. To be clear, these strategies exist in every job market. But I think path is a bit exceptional in that applicants are expected to be a full-time self-recruiter rather than having recruiters and employers contacting them, as would ideally be the case in any field with valuable and marketable skillsets. People shame pathology trainees who don't want to cold call employers as if they're just lazy autists. I had to cold call too, but I recognize it as a symptom of a garbage job market rather than an appropriate metric of professional motivation.

 

[Sunny B]

We are getting excellent candidates seeking to make a new life in America. This is wonderful news and these great candidates will do the work of pathologists readily whenever they can get the chance. They are also better team players than many Americans! My colleagues and I are very proud of our 2019 class of new pathologists in training!

 

[BU Pathology]

Congratulations to everyone who matched into pathology this year, and welcome to a rewarding career.

Here are some actual data, as opposed to anecdotes, about compensation and job satisfaction.
Medscape did a survey of 20,329 physicians in 2018 about their compensation as well as their satisfaction with their compensation. The full slide deck may be found here, to verify the primary data:
Medscape: Medscape Access

Pathologists are compensated much better than internal medicine or family medicine. The average compensation is:
Pathology $286,000
Internal Medicine $230,000
Family Medicine $219,000

Pathologists believed that they were fairly compensated compared to these other specialties
Pathology 67% felt fairly compensated
Internal Medicine, 61% felt fairly compensated
Family Medicine 51% felt fairly compensated

Daniel Remick, M.D.
Chair and Professor of Pathology & Laboratory Medicine
Boston University School of Medicine, Boston Medical Center

 

[Pathological_Liar]

Congratulations to everyone who matched into pathology this year, and welcome to a rewarding career.

Here are some actual data, as opposed to anecdotes, about compensation and job satisfaction.
Medscape did a survey of 20,329 physicians in 2018 about their compensation as well as their satisfaction with their compensation. The full slide deck may be found here, to verify the primary data:
Medscape: Medscape Access

Pathologists are compensated much better than internal medicine or family medicine. The average compensation is:
Pathology $286,000
Internal Medicine $230,000
Family Medicine $219,000

Pathologists believed that they were fairly compensated compared to these other specialties
Pathology 67% felt fairly compensated
Internal Medicine, 61% felt fairly compensated
Family Medicine 51% felt fairly compensated

Daniel Remick, M.D.
Chair and Professor of Pathology & Laboratory Medicine
Boston University School of Medicine, Boston Medical Center

Are Medscape numbers reliable? Merritt-Hawkins lists higher starting averages, which match what I've seen from FP/IM applicants anecdotally [link PDF]:

FP (3 years): $241,000
IM (3 years): $261,000
Peds (3 years): $230,000
Hospitalist (3 years): $269,000
Rads (4 years): $371,000
OB-GYN (4 years): $324,000

These are base salaries only, for 3-4 year GME tracks, and exclude bonuses and other benefits. Average signing bonus is $33,000, with 98% offering to cover CME expenses. 78% offered loan forgiveness in exchange for a 3-year commitment, with an average amount of $82,000.

I have literally never heard of a path job that offers loan forgiveness (other than your standard PSLF), or a signing bonus close to the physician average. These are quantitative metrics that imo reflect job market quality, rather than just using binary questions of whether new grads are employed.

 

[y2k_free_radical]

Congratulations to everyone who matched into pathology this year, and welcome to a rewarding career.

Here are some actual data, as opposed to anecdotes, about compensation and job satisfaction.
Medscape did a survey of 20,329 physicians in 2018 about their compensation as well as their satisfaction with their compensation. The full slide deck may be found here, to verify the primary data:
Medscape: Medscape Access

Pathologists are compensated much better than internal medicine or family medicine. The average compensation is:
Pathology $286,000
Internal Medicine $230,000
Family Medicine $219,000

Pathologists believed that they were fairly compensated compared to these other specialties
Pathology 67% felt fairly compensated
Internal Medicine, 61% felt fairly compensated
Family Medicine 51% felt fairly compensated

Daniel Remick, M.D.
Chair and Professor of Pathology & Laboratory Medicine
Boston University School of Medicine, Boston Medical Center

This includes those earning $700,000 like a few posting here.What is average beginning offer ???

 

[y2k_free_radical]

We are getting excellent candidates seeking to make a new life in America. This is wonderful news and these great candidates will do the work of pathologists readily whenever they can get the chance. They are also better team players than many Americans! My colleagues and I are very proud of our 2019 class of new pathologists in training!

Is that you THROMBUS or an alter ego of DR. REMICK ?????

 

[gbwillner]

Jesus, you guys have to decide this stuff early!

A buddy of mine, who is in Rads and now is raking it in as he owns 20+ radiology practices, scrambled into radiology after trying to match into Rad Onc.