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[Mighty_Mitochondria]

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[Mr. Macrophage]

This is a tough one!

How important is P/F to you? How important is proximity to home? I think if you could assign an importance rating to factors like cost, location, etc. that would help!

 

[Mr. Macrophage]

I don't love the idea of the additional stress that comes with grading during clerkship. I think I would feel considerably more content knowing that I am first and foremost there to learn rather than be graded based on how how much the attending physician likes my personality.

Unsure how much important location is to me. I've never lived outside of Northern New England, so not sure how well I would fare in the south. By the same token, getting away from home and encountering new perspectives would likely be healthy at this point in my life.

Difficult decision indeed!

From what you’ve described, I am leaning slightly more towards UVA. If I were you, I would pick Tufts if that $100k scholarship comes through, and pick UVA otherwise.

Being away from what you’re used to will be difficult, but experiencing a new city and state will broaden your perspectives! The P/F curriculum will allow you to more easily keep up with interests beyond clinical care (research, extracurriculars), and the UVA prestige boost could matter if you end up changing your mind on specialty (as most med students do!)

 

[Mr. Macrophage]

That is essentially where I am at as well. Do you think the prestige boost of UVA is considerable?

For PM&R and Neurology? Probably not! For Dermatology and ENT? Maybe! Since most med students change their mind on specialties, I’d be cautious and personally want to lean in favor of “prestige” just to keep my options open.

I don’t really feel qualified to throw my opinion out there on this topic in particular, though, so I’d definitely wait for voices further along the path to chime in and vote!

Both Tufts and UVA are quite well regarded, so it’s not as if we’re talking about rank #1 versus rank #150 🙂!

 

[hotsaucemuffin]

As someone who wants to stay in my home city and might turn down prestigious programs to do so, I vote tufts. It’s a good school, and I wouldn’t underestimate the importance of having your support system and in general your overall happiness

 

[signomiii]

I've been incredibly lucky to receive acceptances from two of my top choices. My specialties of interest are neurology and PM&R, and I am passionate about translational research. Would love some advice and input.


UVA

Pro

• More prestigious.
• Large hospital system with modern facilities and home-residency programs in every specialty.
• Tremendous research opportunities in neuroscience.
• True P/F for all years with no internal ranking.
• Take home exams.
• I think I would enjoy Charlottesville. I love diverse college towns with easy access to nature.
• I absolutely loved the atmosphere of the school. The students were down-to-earth and the faculty seemed very friendly. They really emphasized diversity and wellness during the interview day which are both important to me.

Con

• 14 hour drive from friends and family.
• Expensive as OOS student.
• No protected time for research. Only summer research and electives during MS4.
• Conflict between faculty and hospital administration about work conditions?
• Don't love the idea of taking step 2 and then step 1 within 1-2 months.

Tufts - Maine Track

Pro

• I've worked for Mainehealth and I love the hospital system. The residents and medical students I've worked with seemed very happy.
• I love Portland. I genuinely feel so happy and content living in the city and can easily see myself living here for the rest of my life.
• Smaller program (40 students) and a more close-knit community and stronger mentorship opportunities.
• Longitudinal integrated clerkship.
• Half of matriculated students receive a 100k scholarship.
• Protected time for scholarly project.
• A lot of investment into the hospital system.

Con

• Less prestigious.
• Internal rank.
• Graded clerkship.
• Fewer research opportunities.
• Only in-house exams.

FYI tufts does not have internal ranking and AOA has been temporarily suspended.

 

[hotsaucemuffin]

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Even if that means graded clinicals, internal ranking, fewer research opportunities and weaker/no in-house residency programs in my specialties of choice?

I mean weaker but not weak, still strong research. And I guess you could think about quality of life of having your support system vs pass fail. They both will have an impact on your life and mental health in medical school.

And I think if you are interested in less competitive specialties you can still match top programs from any MD school especially a school like Tufts. I don’t know specifically how much easier it is to match top schools from a school like UVA vs Tufts, but it might be easier to make connections in Boston while you’re at Tufts.

 

[Stuaccount]

100k/year or 100k total for 4 years?

I’d pick UVA if it’s 25k/year.

 

[signomiii]

Admit.org reports that tufts have both internal ranking and MSPE? Is this information wrong?

Admit.org is not an official resource and can have errors. We do have MSPE but otherwise no internal ranking (we aren’t compared with each other for MSPE and everyone can fall in the same bracket). Preclinical is not included in MSPE.

UVA would def provide more resources than tufts. But I am enjoying my time here. Feel free to PM me and I’m happy to share more

 

[pierty]

UVA has graded clerkships with letter grades and writes a MSPE for each student:

Academic & Professional Advancement Policy - Policies and Guidelines

med.virginia.edu

 

[Mr. Macrophage]

UVA has graded clerkships with letter grades and writes a MSPE for each student:

Academic & Professional Advancement Policy - Policies and Guidelines

med.virginia.edu

UVA is dropping the graded clerkship as of the next academic year.

 

[Mr. Macrophage]

And what would MSPE be absent any internal rank, pre-clinical grades or clerkship grades? Admit states UVA does not even have MSPE, but perhaps the information is wrong.

Every school has MSPE to some extent, what’s important is whether or not there are “adjectives” that secretly denote your quartile or class rank without you knowing! I do not think UVA has that.

MSPE Adjectives = Internal Ranking = AoA in what they do, stress wise. Having 2 or 3 of these doesn’t make a big difference versus having one, as they kind of report the same thing.

 

[Mr. Macrophage]

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that AOA has gone away from primarily being metric and achievement based, but now also takes into account factors such as diversity, community involvement and so on? In other words, making AOA is not necessarily an evaluation of your performances as a medical student.

Is that so? My info on AOA is probably outdated then!

 

[thefirerisen]

Hopefully, I'm able to answer some questions here. Firstly, congratulations on your acceptances to both these schools! It is a tremendous achievement and you should be very proud! I also was deciding between Tufts and UVA (and other schools) but chose UVA in the end so I guess there will be some bias in this answer but I will try to be as objective as possible.

UVA is planning on going entirely P/F for all four years. AOA at UVA is decided on an equal split between leadership, scholarship (so research, etc), and community service. I don't know how its decided at other schools but that is the way its done here. We do not have secret MSPE adjectives ranking us into quartiles and all that is reported is P/F (trust me I've gone on a very deep dive to ensure this).

Back onto UVA vs Tufts. This sounds like Tufts has an edge in location & fit while UVA is has prestige / research opportunities / PF advantage. I want to try to address some of your cons list for UVA -

1) No protected time for research. Only summer research and electives during MS4.
Don't underestimate the value of true P/F on research. I personally have been already able to start research as I can let loose in preclinicals a bit because of true P/F. You don't have to grind it out for a high grade on exams and can settle for a ~70% on each one without any consequences. This applies to all other opportunities including community service, clubs, hobbies, etc. And like you mentioned, there is the summer research program provided for dedicated research.

2) Conflict between faculty and hospital administration about work conditions?
This is a real concern right now at UVA and the CEO is facing a lot of pressure to make changes or resign. Not to do too much of a deep dive into this, but the main issue is in the department of surgery about upcoding for patients to increase revenue for the health system. Then there are some secondary complaints about promotions and potential neglect of employees. This does not apply to the medical school itself which is kind of separated from the rest of the health system. So far, none of the medical students have had any issues with this and it seems to affect primarily the attendings. Students here have no complains with the conditions- we just had a tragedy happen recently and the administration gave us so much support on our upcoming exam later in the week (gave us extra time, moved it so we could take it from home during Thanksgiving). Therapy is offered free of charge to all students and there is a school-dedicated therapist and learning specialist that will work with you individually at any time.

3) Don't love the idea of taking step 2 and then step 1 within 1-2 months.
The Step 2-1 thing is kinda complicated. I'd say a third of the students do it normally (as in take Step 1 after preclinical and take Step 2 after clinical) so that is still open to you if you want to do that. The Step 2 - 1 schedule came out of the switch to P/F for Step 1. Its kind of like they expect you to pass Step 1 because the UVA exams prepare you very well for them so they want to focus all the attention and preparation on Step 2. Step 1 becomes kind of an afterthought where you take the exam just because the accreditation body required us to do so. Because of it, the students score incredibly high on Step 2 which helps when matching into the ultra-competitive specialties. Our scores are like top 10 in the country or something like that. But again, if you want to take Step 1 the traditional way, the administration will let you do that.

I will agree with everyone else that having family nearby and a support system can mean a lot during medical school. I would examine how closely you fit in at Charlottesville & UVA. But P/F and the additional opportunities here are truly amazing and will set you up for a lot of success. I honestly don't know what I would do if I had to enter the rat race with my preclinical exams. No matter what though, you have two great options!!

 

[thefirerisen]

Thank you for your detailed response! I really appreciate your perspective—it has helped clarify some of my concerns and reservations about UVA. After giving it more thought, I’m fairly confident I’ll be choosing UVA. I do have a few additional questions:

1) What are the opportunities for merit-based aid and scholarships at UVA? I don’t believe I’ll qualify for need-based aid, and the out-of-state tuition is a bit daunting.

2) Do medical students collaborate with nursing and allied health professional students at UVA? For example, do you attend lectures together or participate in team-based simulations?

3) How is the neurology department and neuroscience research at UVA? I noticed that in the past two years, only four students matched into neurology, which seems low compared to other specialties.

1) There is merit based aid but it'll be given out at the end of the cycle. I don't know how widespread it is but your entire application is considered for it.

2) So far, not really. We haven't had much collaboration with nursing or other health professional students in lectures or team-based simulations but again, I'm only an M1. I'm sure things are very different during rotations. There is a lot of intermixing in extracurriculars and many clubs have medical students, PhD students, and other health professionals working together.

3) You can look up the Neuroscience & Neurology funding on BRIMR. A quick glance at Neurology shows me that UVA is ranked #33 in Neurology funding while Tufts is ranked #61. For neuroscience, both schools are ranked in the top 30s. All departments here are generally well-established with lots of research and great mentorship. The match list is not a good indicator for Neurology opportunities since its not really considered a competitive field. Meaning, people go into it because they're genuinely passionate about it so a handful of students sounds about right. If you're an average student, you won't have any problem matching into it from either Tufts or UVA so if you're dead set on that, I wouldn't give UVA a huge edge for that.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

Sorry did you say you got Tufts scholarship or no? If not, UVA is a slightly more reputable medical school and P/F clinical seal the deal. Even with the 100k scholarship, I'd side with UVA, since you'd like the location anyway.

People tend to overrate the curriculum minutia. Within the similar tiers and hospital systems, the med education will be mostly the same, and it doesn't really affect your quality of living. The most important curriculum detail is if the school is P/F and how it affects the match.

 

[Mr. Macrophage]

@viking_lama better add WashU to your pros/cons list, congratulations!!

 

[Mr. Macrophage]

Thank you! I'm really excited. I will have to make another post come spring when financial aid comes back 🙂

WashU has crazy financial aid, so I think the decision will be easy when the time comes 🙂