Yale M.D. says all doctors should be forced to wear BODYCAMS because of racist “medial violence” against patients she personally witnessed by ED staff

[lp430]

People I do not want to hear from:
# 1: non-ER docs telling us, ER docs, how to do our job
# 2: Jordan Peterson

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[BoardingDoc]

Just found this on her website.

"Dr. Calhoun works full-time as a medical resident, but she is available to consult on a variety of projects, including anti-racism education and curricula development, keynotes and presentations, podcasts, roundtables, and panels.

To inquire about partnering with Dr. Calhoun,
please contact us."

I would have thought that her website would be slightly less transparent about her self promotion ambitions.

 

[DarkHorizon]

Humans are tribal. Antiracism movement is silly and ironically racist themselves. You can’t have humans completely devoid of bias.

 

[thegenius]

Does anyone feel this anti-racism stuff is getting out of hand?

I live in a blue city in a blue state, I am a moderate liberal, I (think I) try to check my bias at the door, etc etc. More and more these days, I'm made to feel like I've committed an injustice just by my existence as a non-Black/non-Hispanic doctor. Should I be sorry that I wanted to become a doctor, worked really hard and got in and as a result, a racial/economic/sexual minority did not get in? Meanwhile we're celebrating all of these anti-racism "activists" (if not celebrating, then at least giving them a megaphone with all this attention)

I guess this is why they ended affirmative action. Maybe I should just vacation in Florida and see what anti-woke feels like.

Of course it's getting out of hand. I have never heard any nurses, or doctors, overtly say the things that the woman in the article professes she heard. (paraphrasing...) "oh just another black kid in a gang?" c'mon now I doubt that was said. maybe "oh just another gangbanger dying" (which very well could be true), or some quip about drugs.

there is a reason why health care providers inject humor into stressful situations, but it doesn't come from a racist bent.

 

[thegenius]

It's hot AF right now, so bring your swim trunks.

Surface water in the carribean is near (or at) an all time high.

 

[CoolDoc1729]

At PGY 14, I have never seen anyone anything other than crushed and tearful when we have a death in a young person in the ED. My three workplaces have all been in cities frequently on the news for high crime and have large minority populations. It’s hard to believe Yale is that similar to South Carolina in 1860, but I’ve never been there, perhaps it is.

 

[alpinism]

Surface water in the carribean is near (or at) an all time high.

Might explain those chilly ocean temps.

 

[RustedFox]

View attachment 374114


Might explain those chilly ocean temps.

Bro, I went MTBing yesterday. 97 degrees with heat index of 109.

That was a mistake. Ended up limiting myself to the shady trails and just doing the same jumplines over and over.

 

[thegenius]

View attachment 374114


Might explain those chilly ocean temps.

Those surface water temps are > 90F! Sure it's much more frigid as you go even 6-12 feet deep.

What's nice is the top 1/2 of the US pacific coast (NorCal, Ore, WA) have had moderate and nice temperatures so far in 2023. Nothing like most the rest of the world. But that is soon to come to an end next week.

 

[bravotwozero]

We had a pretty rough heat wave in houston a week or so ago, but fortunately we got a bunch rain to cool things down.

 

[wareagle726]

I see a lot of penetrating trauma and a lot of death. I can assure you nobody has ever come close to saying(paraphrasing what she is saying) "Oh well just another young black man dead." That's ridiculous, and I live in the deep south. As previously stated everyone puts %110 effort and is equally devastated when anyone dies, especially younger patients. There was this one traveler that became tiktoc famous for racial slurs that worked here for like 5 days until admin found out then he was canned. Other than that I can guarantee not once. Sure the common remarks about playing frogger in the street, cocaine is a helluva drug, etc... All comments regarding poor decisions but never anything regarding someone's life as less valuable because of race.

Also, it's hot as balls here right now.

 

[EctopicFetus]

People I do not want to hear from:
# 1: non-ER docs telling us, ER docs, how to do our job
# 2: Jordan Peterson

That’s a pretty short list. Mine would break the servers at sdn

 

[Birdstrike]

I wonder if she filed a formal complaint and named names of who committed these alleged racist acts, at her workplace, Yale.

If so, who committed these alleged racist acts? Let’s hear the names. What was the result of the investigation, and what is Yale doing about it?

Certainly, laughing while someone died and making racist comments as they die, is grounds for termination? Who was terminated?

Are there sadistic racists still interacting with critically ill and injured patients at Yale?

If she did not file a formal complaint, why not? Are there other witnesses to these racist acts? Who are they? Do they agree the situations happened as she describes them? If not, what is their interpretation? Or, are there no other witnesses?

Out of the thousands of Yale employees, certainly others must have witnessed this behavior?

Who are they? What did they see and hear?

These are serious allegations. As far as I’m concerned, if she’s making these allegations, she has the responsibility to name names and file a formal complaint, so they can be investigated.

If she isn’t naming names, and isn’t filing a formal complaint, I think it begs the question, what not?

 

[emergentmd]

Another social warrior that will end up being trouble for anyone she works for. I would not hire her even for free, the baggage is astronomical.

 

[ScepticSkeksis]

Critical Race Theory is racism. Any teachings or policies which separate people by race, ascribe values/character traits to that person based on race is racist. Any laws or rules that treat people of different races differently is racist.

 

[ScepticSkeksis]

Another social warrior that will end up being trouble for anyone she works for. I would not hire her even for free, the baggage is astronomical.

This is why I would always do an internet/social media search before hiring someone. If someone is likely to be litigious or trouble-making, I have no interest in dealing with them.

 

[Dr. Rude]

Another social warrior that will end up being trouble for anyone she works for. I would not hire her even for free, the baggage is astronomical.

She is a walking lawsuit.

 

[Siggy]

Ah, nice to see the CRT boogeyman in this thread that's basically the NewsMax/Fox News/Far Right talking points.

Next we'll discussing Joe Rogan's thoughts on the proper delivery of medical care.

 

[Jabbed]

Critical Race Theory is racism. Any teachings or policies which separate people by race, ascribe values/character traits to that person based on race is racist. Any laws or rules that treat people of different races differently is racist.

-Chief Justice Roberts

 

[lp430]

That’s a pretty short list. Mine would break the servers at sdn

 

[Boatswain2PA]

-Chief Justice Roberts

Kinda along the lines of what MLK had a dream about.

Unfortunately race-baiters are now as prevalent as (and much louder than) the racists.

 

[lp430]

Putting bodycams aside, I'm curious with all these people denouncing CRT, how many people have studied/read CRT books before coming to those conclusions? Books like "How to be an anti-racist" by Ibram X. Kendi have helped change my world view and I would highly recommend.

 

[Siggy]

Putting bodycams aside, I'm curious with all these people denouncing CRT, how many people have studied/read CRT books before coming to those conclusions? Books like "How to be an anti-racist" by Ibram X. Kendi have helped change my world view and I would highly recommend.

While I generally don't read racial politics, my understanding of what CRT actually is (not the News Max tin foil hat or the Republican culture war variant), is like saying, "Just because you started some metformin and lisinopril, the years of abuse your body took at the hands of a SBP of 180 and an A1C of 10 hasn't magically gone away."

I mean, sure, we have rules against red lining now... but that doesn't mean that the years of lost generational wealth has magically disappeared too.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

I don't read new-age race-baiting rags either. I prefer to read, and understand, the writings of people who led us through the civil rights movement. Those who wanted equality under the law. That used to be common sense.

Today's CRT pushers are like naturopaths. They make a TON of money of making sure you focus on not feeling well, then prescribe a bunch of expensive vitamins that you can only buy from them, but of course will do nothing to actually fix your problem (and may likely make it worse)....that way they keep rolling in the dolla's!

 

[Siggy]

You know, the only people I hear talk about CRT are the race baiters like Tucker Carlson or Ron DeSantis.

It’s the same reason why when you ask people who watch those to define CRT, they can’t actually provide an accurate definition of it.

 

[AlvinKamara]

I wonder if she filed a formal complaint and named names of who committed these alleged racist acts, at her workplace, Yale.

If so, who committed these alleged racist acts? Let’s hear the names. What was the result of the investigation, and what is Yale doing about it?

Certainly, laughing while someone died and making racist comments as they die, is grounds for termination? Who was terminated?

Are there sadistic racists still interacting with critically ill and injured patients at Yale?

If she did not file a formal complaint, why not? Are there other witnesses to these racist acts? Who are they? Do they agree the situations happened as she describes them? If not, what is their interpretation? Or, are there no other witnesses?

Out of the thousands of Yale employees, certainly others must have witnessed this behavior?

Who are they? What did they see and hear?

These are serious allegations. As far as I’m concerned, if she’s making these allegations, she has the responsibility to name names and file a formal complaint, so they can be investigated.

If she isn’t naming names, and isn’t filing a formal complaint, I think it begs the question, what not?

She wants to work there. Make enough noise to get noticed and promoted. Not enough noise to become a problem.

This is why I ultimately can’t take these activist docs seriously. They’re a self promoting careerist and gunnerish bunch.

See Esther Choo, twitter activist, OHSU professor. Covered up a sexual abuse scandal. Shameful and hypocritical.

 

[bravotwozero]

You know, the only people I hear talk about CRT are the race baiters like Tucker Carlson or Ron DeSantis.

It’s the same reason why when you ask people who watch those to define CRT, they can’t actually provide an accurate definition of it.

How is Ron DeSantis a race baiter?

 

[Siggy]

How is Ron DeSantis a race baiter?

DeSantis Moves to Ban CRT From Florida's Public Higher Education

Governor Ron DeSantis announced a series of widespread reforms targeting diversity and critical race theory in Florida curricula.

www.rollingstone.com

DeSantis defends banning African American studies course as Black leaders call for action

Black officials in Florida are seeking to overturn the administration’s determination that the class “significantly lacks educational value.”

www.politico.com

DeSantis crying about an AP course…

Ron DeSantis wants to scrub AP classes of LGBTQ subjects. The College Board isn't having it

Florida education officials are asking College Board, which runs the Advanced Placement program, to remove LGBTQ subjects. The nonprofit refuses.

www.usatoday.com

 

[Boatswain2PA]

So removing race-baiting classes and pornography from publicly funded schools makes him a race-baiter.

Continuing that logic, anyone who disagrees with the "expert" doc referenced in the OP must also be a racist.

Makes about as much sense as biological males using the girls locker room.

 

[wareagle726]

Siggy led to the death of the politics thread. Looks like we're going there again.

 

[Janders]

So removing race-baiting classes and pornography from publicly funded schools makes him a race-baiter.

Continuing that logic, anyone who disagrees with the "expert" doc referenced in the OP must also be a racist.

Makes about as much sense as biological males using the girls locker room.

AP African American Studies is race-baiting? Or is it pornography?

You and I are going to disagree on this point. Its a college level multi-disciplinary class made to teach advanced HS students analytic thinking from a variety of approaches, themed (in this case) on the African American experience. It is actually still a pilot curriculum undergoing development, so open to changes. It looks at history, literature, art, sociology, philosophy, art, etc… all through the topic listed. It is a common approach to a variety of topics (Jewish Studies, Women’s studies, Western Civ, etc) in education. It isn’t a replacement for a core history class, like US history or Latin American history; it is a multi-disciplinary elective.

DeSantis has noted it has “no educational value” and is “woke” and against Florida law. One thing he pointed out is that there is a module (1 of like 100 modules in the curriculum) regarding queer theory / black queer experience, which in his opinion has nothing to do with black “history”. I would posit this is clearly illogical, and a lesson about a minority-within-a-minority may be eye opening and interesting and important. Are there no queer black people?

I took all sorts of classes on all sorts of topics, AT FLORIDA PUBLIC SCHOOLS. I took 8 or 9 AP exams in Florida, and a stack of IB exams, and explored topics that were controversial… it wasn’t indoctrination, it was opening the door to analysis, critical thinking, debate, and a multiplicity of points of view. I took a shop class; I took an IB exam Latin American history course that was basically themed on the American Empire, US Fruit, Banana Republics and Cuba (controversy!).

Advanced HS students should be ENCOURAGED to take a course like this that pushes their boundaries and encourages learning, reading, and exploration. If the course says everyone in it should buy an AK-47 and kill all white people… yeah we can agree its bad. Otherwise, it seems universal that we find today’s youth disinterested in advanced learning… why limit them?

I found a politico article looking at the curriculum (I’m sure thats an unacceptable source, but they do readily admit some parts are button-pushers). I think its worth reading as it largely matches my POV on the subject. What’s Really in the AP African-American Studies Class DeSantis Rejected?

To quote from it:
“Because reading Friedrich Nietzsche in college did not turn me into a nihilist any more than reading Albert Camus made me an existentialist. I read Ross Douthat’s New York Times column regularly, and yet I have neither changed my party affiliation to Republican nor converted to Catholicism.”

 

[Boatswain2PA]

You and I are going to disagree on this point. Its a college level multi-disciplinary class made to teach advanced HS students analytic thinking from a variety of approaches, themed (in this case) on the African American experience.

We probably don't disagree much. I think DeSantis overshoots a bit here and with his fight against Disney.

Unfortunately most of the social-science classes like this are extraordinarily tilted in one direction though.

 

[southerndoc]

At PGY 14, I have never seen anyone anything other than crushed and tearful when we have a death in a young person in the ED. My three workplaces have all been in cities frequently on the news for high crime and have large minority populations. It’s hard to believe Yale is that similar to South Carolina in 1860, but I’ve never been there, perhaps it is.

As someone who trained there, I can attest that it absolutely is not like this at all. I'm not sure that the person is saying this happened at Yale... at least I did not see her mention where she witnessed it.

 

[southerndoc]

I wonder if she filed a formal complaint and named names of who committed these alleged racist acts, at her workplace, Yale.

If so, who committed these alleged racist acts? Let’s hear the names. What was the result of the investigation, and what is Yale doing about it?

Certainly, laughing while someone died and making racist comments as they die, is grounds for termination? Who was terminated?

Are there sadistic racists still interacting with critically ill and injured patients at Yale?

If she did not file a formal complaint, why not? Are there other witnesses to these racist acts? Who are they? Do they agree the situations happened as she describes them? If not, what is their interpretation? Or, are there no other witnesses?

Out of the thousands of Yale employees, certainly others must have witnessed this behavior?

Who are they? What did they see and hear?

These are serious allegations. As far as I’m concerned, if she’s making these allegations, she has the responsibility to name names and file a formal complaint, so they can be investigated.

If she isn’t naming names, and isn’t filing a formal complaint, I think it begs the question, what not?

During my four years of residency there, I never once saw a psychiatry resident present or even allowed in the trauma bay. I doubt things have changed. They all stayed in the CIU (crisis intervention unit) -- the ED psych area that was locked. Rarely would they leave their domicile to come evaluate a patient in the regular ED.

 

[Siggy]

Siggy led to the death of the politics thread. Looks like we're going there again.

I'm sorry, did I hurt your feelings? I'm not the person who pivoted this to politics. Are you suggesting that people who aren't toeing the far right line shouldn't participate? Because your feelings? Am I invading your safe space?

 

[Siggy]

So removing race-baiting classes and pornography from publicly funded schools makes him a race-baiter.

Continuing that logic, anyone who disagrees with the "expert" doc referenced in the OP must also be a racist.

Makes about as much sense as biological males using the girls locker room.

I mentioned porn, where, again?

I mentioned the "expert doc" where again?

You're an expert on gender dysphoria, and the management thereof?

Yet you agree with me that DeSantis is wrong about the AP courses and Disney (even though I didn't bring this up)?

That's some nice inconsistency there...

 

[Jabbed]

 

[Apollyon]

Siggy led to the death of the politics thread. Looks like we're going there again.

If the only thing you have is a hammer...

Or, alternately, was it Winston Churchill who said a fanatic was "someone who can't change their mind, and won't change the subject"?

 

[Siggy]

Yes. The person using sources and not personal attacks is the problem…

What should we change the subject to then? We could got back to the inappropriateness of wearing body cams during patient encounters, but I’m not the person who pushed the conversation from that to CRT…

We could talk about what constitutes porn in the classroom, like someone else posted. That seems off topic though.

 

[emergentmd]

Future internist will come soon to fully derail this thread with enlarged tweets, memes, stereotyping and personal attacks.

They have the need validation.

 

[ERMudPhud]

At its very core is the idea that to be a white person in this country is to be inherently oppressive and one pushed by hardcore marxists at the highest levels of academia.

Critical Racists, Jordan Peterson interview with Mark Rufo

The interview video from the link above I think goes over the roots of this theory and problems associated with it in much more detail.

I'm pretty sure anyone who believes that has never read anything by the people actually teaching CRT. Certainly neither Peterson nor Rufo would be considered reliable unbiased sources or experts on CRT. If you want a counter point feel like reading the following.

How a Conservative Activist Invented the Conflict Over Critical Race Theory

To Christopher Rufo, a term for a school of legal scholarship looked like the perfect weapon.

www.newyorker.com

Or if you are happy with your current world view, don't bother.

If you think the economic and educational systems in America haven't been tilted toward white people in the past and still aren't in the present you don't know your American history

Here is one source from the notoriously Marxist journal-Forbes

Redlining’s Legacy Of Inequality: Low Homeownership Rates, Less Equity For Black Households

Redlining remains a major factor in today’s wealth gap between black and white families across the country.

www.forbes.com

But there are plenty of other sources on how redlining, massacres like Tulsa, and innumerable other policies and events all contributed to deprive some populations of equal opportunities for generational wealth. That is a better example of CRT then just simplemindedly saying CRT says "White people are all inherently racists"

-Chief Justice Roberts

I don't think John Roberts said that or if he did I couldn't find the quote. Don't think the supreme court has weighed in on either CRT or the strawman versions of CRT being thrown around.

Ahh, well that idea is problematic indeed. I'll say that it's not how I hear anyone who advocates for Critical Race Theory define it though. Seems like a strawman to me. In fact, those who I hear use the term favorably go out of their way to point out that CRT is NOT talking about individuals as racists or oppressors.

Exactly. Don't know why it is so controversial to say that the deck has been stacked and despite improvements remains stacked. Acknowledging it is stacked is not saying some guy in a KKK robe stacked it on purpose because he is a racist dingus, but he might have.

Back to the original post. I've lost track of the number of times I've walked into a room to find someone semi-surreptitiously recording the encounter. At this point I just assume everyone has hit record on their smart phone. Safer that way. Sometimes my inner dingus sneaks out but hopefully most of the time my inside voice stays inside. As one of my nurses who knows my dark soul said after I walked out of the room, "Its amazing, when you were in there it actually seemed like you cared"

 

[ERMudPhud]

Safer that way. Sometimes my inner dingus sneaks out but hopefully most of the time my inside voice stays inside.

Holy sh!ite, I can't say a$$whole? Can you substitute something less stupid than dingus?

 

[doctalaughs]

Exactly. Don't know why it is so controversial to say that the deck has been stacked and despite improvements remains stacked. Acknowledging it is stacked is not saying some guy in a KKK robe stacked it on purpose because he is a racist dingus, but he might have.

That’s the thing.
1) I don’t think anyone argues that the deck was historically stacked against certain minorities and for white people in this country
2) people do disagree that it’s currently stacked heavily given 35 years of affirmative action (which I agree with abolishing, although education is only a first step)
3) people do not agree that equality of outcome is needed and that it should regularly be confused with equality of opportunity
4) even equality of opportunity will never be equal and there are reasonable disagreements about what we should/ shouldn’t do in order to make it more equal.

CRT is not what the extreme right has always tried to scare people about (although in rare instances it has been)- but more generally and relevant it IS based on the teaching that current state of things in this country is systemically racist against certain minorities (and notable NOT other minorities or poor people in general) which is the main “cause” of their poverty / plight / victimhood. And THAT is debatable.

In addition, this worldview / facet of CRT is acceptable to hold up in major corporations, higher ed, etc as “truth” rather than a political belief. If you speak against it you will be cancelled in many of these institutions. That is a problem IMO.

 

[Kryptocoin]

What's the point of going to school if we're only going to learn about viewpoints that we agree with? Book banning was how the Catholic Church kept the masses ignorant for hundreds of years.

CRT examines systemic racism, not individual racism. The US Constitution may be color-blind, but human beings are not and have passed racist laws on the books up until the 1970s (Jim Crow, segregation laws, etc.).

In today's environment, systemic racism is highlighted in drug laws and prison sentences. For example, crack cocaine carries a harsher prison sentence than powder cocaine. One is mainly an urban drug, and the other is largely white-collar.

Second, black men, on average, face harsher prison sentences than white men for the same crime (up to 20% higher) even after you correct for confounding factors (first offense, same criminal history, same socioeconomic status).` In fact, the US govt published the study:

Demographic Differences in Sentencing

(November 2017) A report updating the Commission's data analysis concerning demographic differences in federal sentencing practices set forth in the Commission's 2012 Report to the Congress: Continuing Impact of United States v. Booker on Federal Sentencing.

www.ussc.gov

 

[WilcoWorld]

In addition, this worldview / facet of CRT is acceptable to hold up in major corporations, higher ed, etc as “truth” rather than a political belief. If you speak against it you will be cancelled in many of these institutions. That is a problem IMO.

Can you provide any examples of effective cancellation for criticizing Critical Race Theory? I get the impression that Cancel Culture is another bogeyman used to scare people and stir up outrage. Jordan Peterson was mentioned above for his opposition to Critical Race Theory, so I looked up where he is now and it appears that he retired (was not fired) from the University of Toronto (he holds an emeritus position still), now teaches at Ralston College, and has an estimated net worth of $8 million. That doesn't sound cancelled to me.

I guess what I'm saying is that I am concerned that loaded terms like CRT and Cancel Culture get introduced and distract from an actual good faith debate. Similarly, if I'm talking with someone on the left and they start calling people "Nazis" I realize that I'm probably not going to have a useful conversation with that person.

 

[doctalaughs]

What's the point of going to school if we're only going to learn about viewpoints that we agree with? Book banning was how the Catholic Church kept the masses ignorant for hundreds of years.

CRT examines systemic racism, not individual racism. The US Constitution may be color-blind, but human beings are not and have passed racist laws on the books up until the 1970s (Jim Crow, segregation laws, etc.).

In today's environment, systemic racism is highlighted in drug laws and prison sentences. For example, crack cocaine carries a harsher prison sentence than powder cocaine. One is mainly an urban drug, and the other is largely white-collar.

Second, black men, on average, face harsher prison sentences than white men for the same crime (up to 20% higher) even after you correct for confounding factors (first offense, same criminal history, same socioeconomic status).` In fact, the US govt published the study:

Demographic Differences in Sentencing

(November 2017) A report updating the Commission's data analysis concerning demographic differences in federal sentencing practices set forth in the Commission's 2012 Report to the Congress: Continuing Impact of United States v. Booker on Federal Sentencing.

www.ussc.gov

I would have no problem if this stuff is clearly labeled as opinion. Or- if taught as a course that the other opinion / viewpoint is also introduced and debated freely.

For example, most of the stuff I see as support for “systemic/ structural racism” — especially the Justice, policing and banking studies- is in the form of essentially retrospective / correlation studies. We know that is trash in medicine and easy manipulate, cherry pick or miss other confounding variables. It would be fairly easy to do a blinded prospective study. For example have a second judge blinded to race hand out a sentence and see how it compares to the first judge for 100 people. Or have a second banker blinded to the race portion of a mortgage application test it against the first banker’s decision. Again, easy studies but I haven’t seen them. Public has zero ability to assess how good evidence is here which is dangerous.

Moreover, even if great blinded prospective studies here were done ( as they should be) - it would prove bias not systemic racism. I believe racism should be reserved for intentional, outright acts- because it’s such a loaded word that creates strife and victim/ oppressor roles. It should not be used lightly. And if bias is real through great studies then we have answers — ie institute laws to make a blinded judge/ mortgage broker etc hand down the real decisions.

There are now claims that AI software for things like banking loans are also racist because they are making decisions skewed towards certain demographics. Which is ridiculous. Same as the claim that standardized math tests are also racist because the questions are written in a certain way.

Teaching CRT and elements of it is dangerous and hurtful to society. You tell a group for long enough that they are victims and all their problems are due to another group — you get increasing violence and destabilization of society.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I would have no problem if this stuff is clearly labeled as opinion. Or- if taught as a course that the other opinion / viewpoint is also introduced and debated freely.

For example, most of the stuff I see as support for “systemic/ structural racism” — especially the Justice, policing and banking studies- is in the form of essentially retrospective / correlation studies. We know that is trash in medicine and easy manipulate, cherry pick or miss other confounding variables. It would be fairly easy to do a blinded prospective study. For example have a second judge blinded to race hand out a sentence and see how it compares to the first judge for 100 people. Or have a second banker blinded to the race portion of a mortgage application test it against the first banker’s decision. Again, easy studies but I haven’t seen them. Public has zero ability to assess how good evidence is here which is dangerous.

Moreover, even if great blinded prospective studies here were done ( as they should be) - it would prove bias not systemic racism. I believe racism should be reserved for intentional, outright acts- because it’s such a loaded word that creates strife and victim/ oppressor roles. It should not be used lightly. And if bias is real through great studies then we have answers — ie institute laws to make a blinded judge/ mortgage broker etc hand down the real decisions.

There are now claims that AI software for things like banking loans are also racist because they are making decisions skewed towards certain demographics. Which is ridiculous. Same as the claim that standardized math tests are also racist because the questions are written in a certain way.

Teaching CRT and elements of it is dangerous and hurtful to society. You tell a group for long enough that they are victims and all their problems are due to another group — you get increasing violence and destabilization of society.

Minorities Who 'Whiten' Job Resumes Get More Interviews - Recruiting - Harvard Business School

The HBS blog for recruiting partners features recruiting advice, company perspectives, and student and alumni stories.

www.hbs.edu

 

[Siggy]

For example, most of the stuff I see as support for “systemic/ structural racism” — especially the Justice, policing and banking studies- is in the form of essentially retrospective / correlation studies. We know that is trash in medicine and easy manipulate, cherry pick or miss other confounding variables. It would be fairly easy to do a blinded prospective study. For example have a second judge blinded to race hand out a sentence and see how it compares to the first judge for 100 people. Or have a second banker blinded to the race portion of a mortgage application test it against the first banker’s decision. Again, easy studies but I haven’t seen them. Public has zero ability to assess how good evidence is here which is dangerous.

I mean... sure it's a case study, but I imagine there isn't a lot of funding for a blinded "replace the family pictures between appraisals" study. Some how I doubt that there's a bunch of real estate agents willing to work for free either.

Home appraisal increased by almost $100,000 after Black family hid their race

Appraisal discrimination is a problem that's well known within the Black community, but it's not widely acknowledged.

www.usatoday.com

Teaching CRT and elements of it is dangerous and hurtful to society. You tell a group for long enough that they are victims and all their problems are due to another group — you get increasing violence and destabilization of society.

I think this is the huge problem. The country is like the 60 year old who comes in and says he has no medical history, but then admits to being on 3 antihypertensives and Lantus. The damage caused by decades of uncontrolled blood pressure and blood sugar doesn't suddenly go away just because they're under control today.

The country does have a racial legacy to deal with, and one that wasn't fixed in 1964. Why is crack and powder cocaine treated differently, for example? Why are there correlation studies showing difference in home values based on neighborhood?

The problem is twofold. First, we need to identify the damage caused by the legacy. Just because someone stopped smoking doesn't mean that they don't need a screening CT yearly.

The second, and even harder issue, is trying to fix that damage. I wish it was as simple as giving people a ton of money. That's easy. However it does very little to address the root causes and windfall cash without the generational knowledge and values that is built up alongside generational wealth is not going to fix the problem. I don't have a good solution to that. What I do know is that saying that even looking at the problem is "race baiting," as some here do, is certainly not helpful.

 

[doctalaughs]

Minorities Who 'Whiten' Job Resumes Get More Interviews - Recruiting - Harvard Business School

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I’ve seen that study - and I think it’s definitely one of the few that is compelling for bias (at least better than most of the retrospective stuff that is so over-cited as proof).

Not systemic racism (as I said that is a dangerous term for those with an agenda) but bias. The interesting thing about that study is that the bias for interview callbacks against Asians was just as strong as blacks, yet companies rarely talk about the need to mitigate that.

 

[doctalaughs]

I mean... sure it's a case study, but I imagine there isn't a lot of funding for a blinded "replace the family pictures between appraisals" study. Some how I doubt that there's a bunch of real estate agents willing to work for free either.

Home appraisal increased by almost $100,000 after Black family hid their race

Appraisal discrimination is a problem that's well known within the Black community, but it's not widely acknowledged.

www.usatoday.com

I think this is the huge problem. The country is like the 60 year old who comes in and says he has no medical history, but then admits to being on 3 antihypertensives and Lantus. The damage caused by decades of uncontrolled blood pressure and blood sugar doesn't suddenly go away just because they're under control today.

The country does have a racial legacy to deal with, and one that wasn't fixed in 1964. Why is crack and powder cocaine treated differently, for example? Why are there correlation studies showing difference in home values based on neighborhood?

The problem is twofold. First, we need to identify the damage caused by the legacy. Just because someone stopped smoking doesn't mean that they don't need a screening CT yearly.

The second, and even harder issue, is trying to fix that damage. I wish it was as simple as giving people a ton of money. That's easy. However it does very little to address the root causes and windfall cash without the generational knowledge and values that is built up alongside generational wealth is not going to fix the problem. I don't have a good solution to that. What I do know is that saying that even looking at the problem is "race baiting," as some here do, is certainly not helpful.

You say there is not funding for a good prospective study but it wouldn’t be that hard as I pointed out (super cheap compared to even the smallest drug trial) and there is obviously tons of funding for these crappy case and retrospective studies.

So how long would you say is long enough to “fix that damage” and what exactly is your endpoint? I think most would agree with your statement that racism wasn’t fixed instantly in 1965. 60 years of gradual progress was apparently not the mark for you - but is 100 years? 200?

For many in this camp- the only concrete goal they can put forward is “equal population outcomes” by skin color, irrespective of individual merits — which I would argue is NOT a good goal. The single convincing study that was cited above for racial bias in hiring/ interviewing would suggest to me that a policy boosting Asians (despite being overrepresented in many fields like Medicine) as much as blacks in job interviews would be the only justified way to go forward to continue “correcting” this legacy of current bias. Of course, I don’t really believe that is the way to go - just pointing out the logical fallacies of this type of thought process.