Yes, we chose Pharmacy

[Mr. Corporate Pharmacist]

You are constantly repeating yourself and it`s getting old.

Just tell people to get good enough to land a job by the time they graduate and be done with it.
The money spent, time spent and a degree earned alone aren`t enough.

Thanks for taking the time to read my posts.

Not everyone has the same skills or background as you do.

For those that benefit from your advice, I applaud you.

But it also sounds like I've offended you somehow.

My advice would be to keep scrolling and live your life.

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[PharmtoCS]

If I were a new grad, I would accept the circumstances and make a plan to get what I want. If I didn't love retail or business, I would steer clear of corporate retail pharmacy.

Which applies to the vast majority of students going into pharmacy right now. Corporate retail pharmacist is where the vast majority of the jobs are, hence the disappointment and disillusionment of new grads.

At least half of the students going into pharmacy today have no business being in the profession, period. Many of them can do a lot better without having to take out $200k+ in loans and spend another 4 years of their lives in school for a PharmD.

 

[TerryTerry]

Thanks for taking the time to read my posts.

Not everyone has the same skills or background as you do.

For those that benefit from your advice, I applaud you.

But it also sounds like I've offended you somehow.

My advice would be to keep scrolling and live your life.

Sincerely speaking, your posts and website are both very productive and helpful.
I am not offended so please do not let that idea bother you in anyway.

Yes. Each student needs to differentiate herself/himself from rest of them.
They also need to learn how to manage and handle the challenges this profession bring.

However, it`s always easier said than done especially when many of them won`t even get a chance.

There are not enough jobs for everyone.
Sometimes talents don`t even matter because some employers do discriminate.

 

[BidingMyTime]

The problem is a huge number of pharmacy students have never worked in a pharmacy and have no idea what they are getting themselves into. (I was the same when I started pharmacy school, but I did get jobs after starting and worked both retail and hospital while in pharmacy school.) There are many pharmacy students who graduate having never worked anything but their mandatory ACPE/rotations/whatever they call practical experience these days.

There are a huge number of pharmacy students who care only about "easy money." Yes, salary should be one of the things looked at when picking a career, but it should never be the primary reason when picking a career. People who pick a career solely on salary, are setting themselves up for a lifetime of unhappiness.

So my advice......1) get pharmacy experience before you enter pharmacy school, or at least your first year after entering pharmacy school. By pharmacy experience, I mean a real job/internship, not your mandatory school practical experience.

2) If you hate working in a pharmacy, do NOT assume that it will be different when you are a pharmacist, or that if you switch to hospital (or retail or industry or whatnot) that it will be better and you will actually like that. The majority of pharmacist jobs are in retail, so you *must* be willing to work retail, because there is a real chance that is where you will end up working. If you hate retail, or any other aspect of pharmacy, cut your losses and get out, because it won't magically get better.

3) Do NOT pick pharmacy because you want a big paycheck. Pick pharmacy, because you have become informed (from actually working, not from talking to school administrators) as to what the job entails, and because pharmacy sounds like a job you would be happy doing for the rest of your life. If you would not be happy working as a pharmacist at $50,000/yr, then consider other job options. Bear in mind, I'm not saying that pharmacists salaries are likely to drop to $50,000/yr (I hope not!), I'm saying you need to consider how much you actually like the job of working in a pharmacy.

 

[mentos]

CS is way harder than Pharm though. Trust me i took CS classes.

True. You need actual skills to code whereas anyone can get into pharmacy school, memorize a bunch of PowerPoint slides, and pass the multiple choice board exams to become an Rph. If you can't code, you won't make it past comp sci 101.

The PharmD is a 4 year degree +/- residency degree that you paid $150k for. Why should pharmacists make less than PAs or master's degree holders whose degrees are only 2 years? The more pharmacists accept low wages the further wages will drop. Meanwhile pharmacy school tuitions are at an all time high. If you are a passionate about the profession, you would play no part in devaluing its worth.

You can easily spend 300k for an art history or women's studies undergrad degree, should they make twice as much as pharmacists? See how silly your argument sounds now?

 

[Timbo]

You can easily spend 300k for an art history or women's studies undergrad degree, should they make twice as much as pharmacists? See how silly your argument sounds now?

For one I highly doubt 300k is the average for a bachelor's in art history or women's studies. Not even a third of that. Secondly the PharmD is a much narrower degree like most professional degrees. People go to pharmacy school specifically to become a licensed practicing pharmacist and pharmacists hold a certain stature within the healthcare team. The pre-pharms who care about pharmacy should be aware of this and do whatever it takes to avoid denigrating the profession

 

[tylenolnumber3]

For one I highly doubt 300k is the average for a bachelor's in art history or women's studies. Not even a third of that. Secondly the PharmD is a much narrower degree like most professional degrees. People go to pharmacy school specifically to become a licensed practicing pharmacist and pharmacists hold a certain stature within the healthcare team. The pre-pharms who care about pharmacy should be aware of this and do whatever it takes to avoid denigrating the profession

1. Whether you decide to go to public or private school that’s charged 20k a year vs 75k a year is an individual problem. Just because you picked 200k does not justify that you must paid 150k a year

2. What justification do you have that our wage should stay up? 15 years ago pharmacist were making 60-70k a year before the boom. Your salary went up due to profit margins booming and shortage. There’s nothing that says you deserve the same wage when reimbursement have fallen significantly and we have a projected 80-100k surprise of pharmacist by 2025?

3. Np and pa are more valuable because they can bill. Pharmacist can’t do **** they are an expense to the system. Document document document to justify that you are bringing down cost worth your pay.

4. Why do you deserve to get paid 150k? Please explain besides that you are entitled to what others have previously made. Explains the economics of it please.

 

[mentos]

For one I highly doubt 300k is the average for a bachelor's in art history or women's studies. Not even a third of that. Secondly the PharmD is a much narrower degree like most professional degrees. People go to pharmacy school specifically to become a licensed practicing pharmacist and pharmacists hold a certain stature within the healthcare team. The pre-pharms who care about pharmacy should be aware of this and do whatever it takes to avoid denigrating the profession

Do you understand what billable vs non-billable means? You should go to the library and pick up a business book. The above poster is correct. NPs, PAs, engineers etc MAKE the company money every hour that they work because the client is charged for their service by the hour or by the service. Pharmacists are 99% overhead which means they are a business expense that costs money for the company. From a business perspective, employers view pharmacists the same as a McDonald's employee, only they cost 6 times more.

Pharmacist job listings get hundreds of applicants for one position. Why should they pay top dollar for a pharmacist again?

 

[Timbo]

1. Whether you decide to go to public or private school that’s charged 20k a year vs 75k a year is an individual problem. Just because you picked 200k does not justify that you must paid 150k a year

2. What justification do you have that our wage should stay up? 15 years ago pharmacist were making 60-70k a year before the boom. Your salary went up due to profit margins booming and shortage. There’s nothing that says you deserve the same wage when reimbursement have fallen significantly and we have a projected 80-100k surprise of pharmacist by 2025?

3. Np and pa are more valuable because they can bill. Pharmacist can’t do **** they are an expense to the system. Document document document to justify that you are bringing down cost worth your pay.

4. Why do you deserve to get paid 150k? Please explain besides that you are entitled to what others have previously made. Explains the economics of it please.

Do you understand what billable vs non-billable means? You should go to the library and pick up a business book. The above poster is correct. NPs, PAs, engineers etc MAKE the company money every hour that they work because the client is charged for their service by the hour or by the service. Pharmacists are 99% overhead which means they are a business expense that costs money for the company. From a business perspective, employers view pharmacists the same as a McDonald's employee, only they cost 6 times more.

Pharmacist job listings get hundreds of applicants for one position. Why should they pay top dollar for a pharmacist again?

You guys aren't hearing what I am saying. YES you're completely correct that pharmacist salaries should decrease IF we all abide by the laws of supply and demand. But we may be underestimating these new pharmacy student's incredible passion for this profession. At this point I'm sure most know about saturation and decreasing wages and hours, yet they still choose to enter this field knowing full well it may be financial suicide. That's how passionate they are. Their passion will defy the laws of supply and demand because they are willing to go unemployed to fight for what the profession is worth. Back me up on this pre-pharms and tell me you won't ever accept a corporate retail job for $40/hr.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

You guys aren't hearing what I am saying. YES you're completely correct that pharmacist salaries should decrease IF we all abide by the laws of supply and demand. But we may be underestimating these new pharmacy student's incredible passion for this profession. At this point I'm sure most know about saturation and decreasing wages and hours, yet they still choose to enter this field knowing full well it may be financial suicide. That's how passionate they are. Their passion will defy the laws of supply and demand because they are willing to go unemployed to fight for what the profession is worth. Back me up on this pre-pharms and tell me you won't ever accept a corporate retail job for $40/hr.

You forgot to post in sarcasm font.

 

[DagS132]

You forgot to post in sarcasm font.

lol, its pretty cute someone goes through all this trouble just to troll everyone. But it starts getting real sad when an actual pharmacist does this.

 

[princeafrica]

You guys aren't hearing what I am saying. YES you're completely correct that pharmacist salaries should decrease IF we all abide by the laws of supply and demand. But we may be underestimating these new pharmacy student's incredible passion for this profession. At this point I'm sure most know about saturation and decreasing wages and hours, yet they still choose to enter this field knowing full well it may be financial suicide. That's how passionate they are. Their passion will defy the laws of supply and demand because they are willing to go unemployed to fight for what the profession is worth. Back me up on this pre-pharms and tell me you won't ever accept a corporate retail job for $40/hr.

None of the pre-pharmacy students I’ve met in my state or have worked with at Walgreens know what SDN is and most repeat a bunch of facts they heard at a school recruitment event. 1/10 actually convinced me

 

[DagS132]

None of the pre-pharmacy students I’ve met in my state or have worked with at Walgreens know what SDN is and most repeat a bunch of facts they heard at a school recruitment event. 1/10 actually convinced me

lol, what?! I think I got the message but........ here let me "fix" it up for you.

"None of the pre-pharmacy students in my state that have worked at Walgreens with me know what SDN is. They repeat a bunch of facts they heard at a school recruitment event."
Can't really translate that last sentence though.

 

[sozetone]

If students are desperate (or enthusiastic) enough for a job, then they will sign. Even if their will is strong, society will tell them to just take the job. Some peers will provide erroneous advice as well. The issue comes down to the student negotiating their worth at $50/hr or above. Residencies provide that training, which is why they are most sought after by graduates and provide a platform for negotiation. However, not every pharmacy graduate or licensed pharmacist earns a residency. Those students rely on rotations, volunteer experience, sustained technician work, research publications, and paid/unpaid internships.

For the community setting, how do you promote yourself to a higher level and prevent this from happening when you are competing against those with much higher credentials? How will you advise the PGY1s and PGY2s in a specialty area from "choosing" retail?

Answer: Find someone that will train you or choose another career. Pharmacy has historically been an apprenticeship, which is why all of the talk about training is present.

There is NO negotiating, we have NO leverage at this point. I am a WM manager, if i hire you as a staff you WILL take 50 or less/ hour, if you start haggling and decline the position, 100 more students behind you will snatch it up. And FYI PGY whatever, we dont want them in retail, they are too slow to keep up. period. Hiring one of them is like setting myself up to have to spend the next year performancing them out the door. Its a hassle i dont need. I make the old school 6 figure salary for managers at this point. That said, I am not foolish enough to think they wont come for me sooner or later, in some creative way to replace my position with a lower paid manager. However, when that time comes, it will be bad for EVERYONE, and i will bow out gracefully. Let the kids sort this one out. I have made and saved my money to the best of my ability, I owe this field nothing......it turned its back on me, so why care so much?

 

[sozetone]

Spot on.

On top of that, many companies are not investing time to train you. I remember having orientations, 6 weeks of training etc etc. (not that you need that..most will get it in a week). But either way it is tougher for new grads to jump in and get going. Not saying it cannot be done, but it is very strenuous.

Agreed, one of the main problems is the workload is SO high compared to what retail used to be, it overwhelms the new grads with little to no experience. I am a WM manager and watch them struggle to catch on, and never really set the world on fire in any way. They just burn out within a few years at best. I feel bad for them because it was not always this way, and maybe they had a chance 5 or so years ago, but now? my god. Another problem is the younger they are the poorer their communication skills are, which is essential to leadership quality and commanding presence as a pharmacist. They appear to not know what they are doing, and have trouble interacting in the corporate environment. At least if they could "pretend" they might have a chance. Corporate retail is a viscous, cut throat place to work and you need tough skin and real world experience to deal with the mental rigors you encounter daily. I actually saw a new grad after ,maybe 6 months walk outside, put his hands over his face, kneel down///and it looked like he was breaking down. He quit shortly after that.

 

[sozetone]

I've posted in other threads. I can't give too many details as I'm actively working, but I'll summarize again here.

I currently work for a PBM. I've been with the company for going on 16 years. With the backing up my leadership team and pharmacist team, I'm finally pursuing my degree. When I complete my degree, I'll have 20 years in the company. The current plan is that once I'm able to go back to working Full-time (dropping my hours in August when school starts), that I will be able to transition into a pharmaist role within my dept. From there, my plan is to be able to to them continue building on my career as I move up.

You wanna hear god laugh? TELL HIM YOUR PLANS.........

 

[Old]

Agreed, one of the main problems is the workload is SO high compared to what retail used to be, it overwhelms the new grads with little to no experience. I am a WM manager and watch them struggle to catch on, and never really set the world on fire in any way. They just burn out within a few years at best. I feel bad for them because it was not always this way, and maybe they had a chance 5 or so years ago, but now? my god. Another problem is the younger they are the poorer their communication skills are, which is essential to leadership quality and commanding presence as a pharmacist. They appear to not know what they are doing, and have trouble interacting in the corporate environment. At least if they could "pretend" they might have a chance. Corporate retail is a viscous, cut throat place to work and you need tough skin and real world experience to deal with the mental rigors you encounter daily. I actually saw a new grad after ,maybe 6 months walk outside, put his hands over his face, kneel down///and it looked like he was breaking down. He quit shortly after that.

This post is so TRUE. You can volunteer in college, paint your hair orange so you stand out or do what ever you want to set yourself apart from the others. But, the reality is not the way the colleges teach you. Retail is tough. After 42 years on the bench what Sozetone posted is so true. If you are a student read his posts over and over again. Think twice about your path.

 

[Secret_Informant]

Agreed, one of the main problems is the workload is SO high compared to what retail used to be, it overwhelms the new grads with little to no experience. I am a WM manager and watch them struggle to catch on, and never really set the world on fire in any way. They just burn out within a few years at best. I feel bad for them because it was not always this way, and maybe they had a chance 5 or so years ago, but now? my god. Another problem is the younger they are the poorer their communication skills are, which is essential to leadership quality and commanding presence as a pharmacist. They appear to not know what they are doing, and have trouble interacting in the corporate environment. At least if they could "pretend" they might have a chance. Corporate retail is a viscous, cut throat place to work and you need tough skin and real world experience to deal with the mental rigors you encounter daily. I actually saw a new grad after ,maybe 6 months walk outside, put his hands over his face, kneel down///and it looked like he was breaking down. He quit shortly after that.

A few questions:

1. Where is this new graduate working now (as a pharmacist or not as a pharmacist), the one who quit?
2. Did this new graduate you speak of choose a less intense position within pharmacy after they quit? I know quite a few new graduates who left to managed care, long-term care, and mail order after working retail 2-4 years. If anything, a second job would have broken the monotony (and the insane issues).
3. Did the student leave the company, the job, or the manager they worked for?

 

[Saisri_PharmStdnt]

You wanna hear god laugh? TELL HIM YOUR PLANS.........

I'm pretty sure that wasn't necessary and I've been pretty tolerant of your jabs, slams, ridicule, harassment, and everything else up until now. I'm pretty over it.

You'll either need to find someone else who will put up with you for a while, or you can find something else to do. It is not my fault or anyone else's fault here on these boards that you are not a happy individual.

 

[Timbo]

You forgot to post in sarcasm font.

lol, its pretty cute someone goes through all this trouble just to troll everyone. But it starts getting real sad when an actual pharmacist does this.

No sarcasm or trolling. Everybody knows how saturated pharmacy is nowadays and I'm sure every pre-pharm has taken Economics 101 and knows how the laws of supply and demand will affect salaries. So if not the money, why do you think they still choose to pursue pharmacy?
This post was supposed to be about how we can help pre-pharmacy and pharmacy students on how to become a better pharmacist and that was my suggestion to them: to not sell yourself short and stand up for what the profession is worth.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

No sarcasm or trolling. Everybody knows how saturated pharmacy is nowadays and I'm sure every pre-pharm has taken Economics 101 and knows how the laws of supply and demand will affect salaries. So if not the money, why do you think they still choose to pursue pharmacy?
This post was supposed to be about how we can help pre-pharmacy and pharmacy students on how to become a better pharmacist and that was my suggestion to them: to not sell yourself short and stand up for what the profession is worth.

Interesting point you bring up and I wonder if there is any sort of analysis done on whether pre-req (coursework) requirements for entry to pharmacy school have also changed throughout the years. Obviously the big changes that are often talked about are a lack of PCAT requirement and diminishing minimum GPA requirements, but what about the number/types of classes you have to satisfy to be eligible for admission?

I remember from my days as a pre-pharm that pharmacy of all health professions (including medicine) had the most pre-req courses since you had to take things like Econ 101, Public Speaking 101, Anatomy/Physiology, etc. Are these still requirements to get into pharm school?

 

[sozetone]

A few questions:

1. Where is this new graduate working now (as a pharmacist or not as a pharmacist), the one who quit?
2. Did this new graduate you speak of choose a less intense position within pharmacy after they quit? I know quite a few new graduates who left to managed care, long-term care, and mail order after working retail 2-4 years. If anything, a second job would have broken the monotony (and the insane issues).
3. Did the student leave the company, the job, or the manager they worked for?

I couldnt possibly answer those questions, and it really makes no difference. This person who invested their life into a career field should have been prepared to handle everything thrown at them without mental breakdown, just like the myself, or the bulk of other pharmacists working along side him. There is no excuse, however it;s not all his fault, i do recognize that. It's just the way the field is now, and the working conditions/stress level. If you have not worked a whole lot in corporate and understand the dynamics, you will probably have a hard time adapting/adjusting. It's a whole new world.

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

, why aren't there more posts helping students become the best Pharmacists that they can be in order to mold and shape those you want to be in the field.

That's what AdComs used to do.

 

[Queen Of Pharmaceutics]

You wanna hear god laugh? TELL HIM YOUR PLANS.........

Lmao so I see you post this same cliche all throughout the board.

 

[Queen Of Pharmaceutics]

I'm pretty sure that wasn't necessary and I've been pretty tolerant of your jabs, slams, ridicule, harassment, and everything else up until now. I'm pretty over it.

You'll either need to find someone else who will put up with you for a while, or you can find something else to do. It is not my fault or anyone else's fault here on these boards that you are not a happy individual.

Thank you! Get him all the way together. He was spamming the AA Pharm student thread.

 

[Queen Of Pharmaceutics]

Interesting point you bring up and I wonder if there is any sort of analysis done on whether pre-req (coursework) requirements for entry to pharmacy school have also changed throughout the years. Obviously the big changes that are often talked about are a lack of PCAT requirement and diminishing minimum GPA requirements, but what about the number/types of classes you have to satisfy to be eligible for admission?

I remember from my days as a pre-pharm that pharmacy of all health professions (including medicine) had the most pre-req courses since you had to take things like Econ 101, Public Speaking 101, Anatomy/Physiology, etc. Are these still requirements to get into pharm school?

Yes,

Although if you have a bachelors they will waive some of the humanities requirements. Most of the schools I applied to were not too different from med school prerequisites with the only difference being only one semester of physics instead of two.

 

[kww2381]

(Posting the following as a Pre-Pharm starting school in August, not as a moderator)

There are so many threads in the Pre-Pharmacy section regarding all the reasons people should not be going into Pharmacy. I was going to link them, but then this post would be really long.

There are many of us Pre-Pharmacy students on the boards, much to the frustration of those who have come before us.

Yes, Pharmacy is an over-crowded field. I don't know that anyone is truly disputing that fact. But hear me out, there will always be a need for students coming up behind those already in the field in order to replace those that retire, move on, etc. The real issue isn't that there are Pharmacy Students, but how many of them.

I want to offer up a discussion point for you all.

There are 2 primary groups of Pharmacy Students: Those on SDN and those that are not.

Instead of being the doom/gloom to those students you have access to on these boards, why aren't there more posts helping students become the best Pharmacists that they can be in order to mold and shape those you want to be in the field. There are opportunities to network, to share the knowledge of the Collective, to provide real world advice, to offer help navigating the process, etc...

All the non-SDN pharmacy students out there would be missing out on this information and would be at a disadvantage from an information perspective.

If knowledge is power, why aren't we using the power better?

I love the positivity! My parents have always told me that it's better to try than not try at all. That's the mindset I have going into this profession. I currently work for CVS and I love it so much. The pharmacy is WELL staffed and we have up to 3 pharmacists working at the same time during the day and they probably work 40+ hours/week. Granted, I work at a 24 hour store with thousands of scripts per week, but the people who work there are generally satisfied and it really shows. This has kept my hopes up about pursing this profession. Feeding into the negativity will only drive me to pursue a profession that I probably wouldn't enjoy as much.

A side note, I see that some people complain about the salary coming out of school. I believe patience is key. Someone coming out of pharmacy school in their mid-twenties should not expect a glamorous new job with wonderful benefits. That's not how the majority of people start out in any career they venture into, especially pharmacy in this time.

 

[Xenophylia]

I currently work for CVS and I love it so much.

lol....Thank you....I can die now with the knowledge that I've literally heard everything!

 

[Xenophylia]

I appreciate the enthusiasm (idealistic and naive though it is) the pre pharms here have. But please don't write off all the doomsayers as trolls. I usually avoid posting in this forum as I don't feel the need to rain on anyone's parade. But much of the negativity here only reflects reality. You won't get encouragement from practicing pharmacists. We've seem the profession literally go to ****. It had its good days. But those are gone and it would take an absolute miracle to restore pharmacy to even a fraction of its former worth. Good things don't last forever. Some of us were able to reap the benefits of the good times. But I assure you- they are GONE, Ignoring reality won't help you. Those of us who've been in it for a while are just hoping to ride it out till we can retire. I can't imagine what things will be like in another 30 years. I think most of those who are calling the negative posts trolls will look back one day and wish they had believed what was said by these very people. If you're looking for money- avoid pharmacy. If you're looking for status- avoid pharmacy. The only thing pharmacy has to offer anyone now is a poor return on investment and a VERY difficult future.

 

[Timbo]

A side note, I see that some people complain about the salary coming out of school. I believe patience is key. Someone coming out of pharmacy school in their mid-twenties should not expect a glamorous new job with wonderful benefits. That's not how the majority of people start out in any career they venture into, especially pharmacy in this time.

Salary complaints are only very recent. For a long time pharmacist salaries were excellent. But in within the past year, hours have been cut severely, wages have dropped 10-15%, and pay raises have been frozen. I don't work for CVS but I do work for a large chain. Traditionally we have been getting 1% salary raises every year. Last year no one got raises. Most recently weekend hours were cut as well as overlap. We all went down from 80 hrs biweekly to 72. So I don't know what you mean by "patience" because the longer I wait, the more it seems stores are getting hours cut or sometimes getting closed completely. Yes maybe your store is well staffed due to being a very busy one, but you are the exception not the rule. Meanwhile pharmacy school tuition is at an all time high. It's getting to the point where some new grad pharmacists are only making $70-80k per year. Accounting for monthly student loan payments, your salary can easily drop to $50k for the next decade (ie you're basically making as much as someone with a bachelor's degree plus the massive student debt). Meanwhile dentists still make $140k per year with similar amount of education. PAs already make $90-100k with only 2 years. Answer me this: why should pharmacists make less money compared to all other healthcare professions with similar or lesser education requirements?

 

[rxkrafted]

I love the positivity! My parents have always told me that it's better to try than not try at all. That's the mindset I have going into this profession. I currently work for CVS and I love it so much. The pharmacy is WELL staffed and we have up to 3 pharmacists working at the same time during the day and they probably work 40+ hours/week. Granted, I work at a 24 hour store with thousands of scripts per week, but the people who work there are generally satisfied and it really shows. This has kept my hopes up about pursing this profession. Feeding into the negativity will only drive me to pursue a profession that I probably wouldn't enjoy as much.

A side note, I see that some people complain about the salary coming out of school. I believe patience is key. Someone coming out of pharmacy school in their mid-twenties should not expect a glamorous new job with wonderful benefits. That's not how the majority of people start out in any career they venture into, especially pharmacy in this time.

I would be happy too if I worked in a well-staffed pharmacy with 2 other pharmacists as well lol... You need to venture out to many other stores. Why are you talking about patience? You do realize there are many interns who don't even get offers at all after graduation right? Are you doing to be patient when it comes to job hunting because your student loans won't... ?

 

[Queen Of Pharmaceutics]

Salary complaints are only very recent. For a long time pharmacist salaries were excellent. But in within the past year, hours have been cut severely, wages have dropped 10-15%, and pay raises have been frozen. I don't work for CVS but I do work for a large chain. Traditionally we have been getting 1% salary raises every year. Last year no one got raises. Most recently weekend hours were cut as well as overlap. We all went down from 80 hrs biweekly to 72. So I don't know what you mean by "patience" because the longer I wait, the more it seems stores are getting hours cut or sometimes getting closed completely. Yes maybe your store is well staffed due to being a very busy one, but you are the exception not the rule. Meanwhile pharmacy school tuition is at an all time high. It's getting to the point where some new grad pharmacists are only making $70-80k per year. Accounting for monthly student loan payments, your salary can easily drop to $50k for the next decade (ie you're basically making as much as someone with a bachelor's degree plus the massive student debt). Meanwhile dentists still make $140k per year with similar amount of education. PAs already make $90-100k with only 2 years. Answer me this: why should pharmacists make less money compared to all other healthcare professions with similar or lesser education requirements?

See when y’all say salaries will drop to 50k that’s when I know y’all are exaggerating. Saturation doesn’t last forever. Some students will decide against going to Pharm school up until there is a shortage or a level market again. The market corrects itself. Pharm schools would lose applicants if the career salary goes down to 50k creating another shortage.

Some of y’all exaggerate to the point that it is hard to take y’all seriously, and then you derail threads asking the same questions over and over getting no where. It makes y’all come off as trolls.

Some of us actually like pharmaceutical science, some of us want to be in the medical field but believe pharmacy fits better with our personality.

very few go into pharmacy just for the the prestige.

 

[Queen Of Pharmaceutics]

You better keep it a secret that your store is doing so well. Once corporate funds out about how well you are doing they will titrate your hours down. Hope negativity doesn’t ensue.

Except that’s not how it works works when working in those chain stores. I worked at Sam’s club as a tech. The hours were based on how well the store was doing. If we were in a slump our hours were cut.

 

[Timbo]

See when y’all say salaries will drop to 50k that’s when I know y’all are exaggerating. Saturation doesn’t last forever. Some students will decide against going to Pharm school up until there is a shortage or a level market again. The market corrects itself. Pharm schools would lose applicants if the career salary goes down to 50k creating another shortage.

Some of y’all exaggerate to the point that it is hard to take y’all seriously, and then you derail threads asking the same questions over and over getting no where. It makes y’all come off as trolls.

Some of us actually like pharmaceutical science, some of us want to be in the medical field but believe pharmacy fits better with our personality.

very few go into pharmacy just for the the prestige.

Yes saturation doesn't last forever, but how long do you think until the market self corrects? The current P4 I precept for still hasn't gotten a job offer despite having worked for his chain for years and he's graduating in less than a month. In fact his chain hasn't offered any positions to any of their interns yet this year. This is unprecedented as in the past year everybody got job offers by now. Still class sizes haven't decreased yet from what I've seen. 2016-17 had a record high number of new pharmDs and it's showing no signs of slowing down. Schools are already losing applicants by the way and have been for the past few years. Their solution however is not to reduce class size but to lower admission standards.
I used to make $120k at 40 hours a week. Now it's barely above $100k at 36 hours. Accounting for the $3000 I pay monthly for my loans, that brings it down to like $64k per year. Now can you see how a new grad whose wage is in the low 50s/hr and who can only get 32 hours per week can have his salary drop down to the 50k's when you account for loans?

 

[TerryTerry]

See when y’all say salaries will drop to 50k that’s when I know y’all are exaggerating. Saturation doesn’t last forever. Some students will decide against going to Pharm school up until there is a shortage or a level market again. The market corrects itself. Pharm schools would lose applicants if the career salary goes down to 50k creating another shortage.

Some of y’all exaggerate to the point that it is hard to take y’all seriously, and then you derail threads asking the same questions over and over getting no where. It makes y’all come off as trolls.

Some of us actually like pharmaceutical science, some of us want to be in the medical field but believe pharmacy fits better with our personality.

very few go into pharmacy just for the the prestige.

The schools will appreciate the fact that there are still plenty of people like you.

Peace, y`all !

 

[PharmtoCS]

See when y’all say salaries will drop to 50k that’s when I know y’all are exaggerating. Saturation doesn’t last forever. Some students will decide against going to Pharm school up until there is a shortage or a level market again. The market corrects itself. Pharm schools would lose applicants if the career salary goes down to 50k creating another shortage.

Some of y’all exaggerate to the point that it is hard to take y’all seriously, and then you derail threads asking the same questions over and over getting no where. It makes y’all come off as trolls.

Some of us actually like pharmaceutical science, some of us want to be in the medical field but believe pharmacy fits better with our personality.

very few go into pharmacy just for the the prestige.

This kind of thinking is why the market can and will remain irrational for longer than you can stay solvent.

 

[Queen Of Pharmaceutics]

This kind of thinking is why the market can and will remain irrational for longer than you can stay solvent.

This is basic economics. The state of pharmacy is not going to seem attractive to students who just want money. Enrollment is dropping and more students are headed to underserved areas. There will be jobs for you if you don’t mind going to them.

The market is not irrational, it is very common to go from a shortage to equilibrium and then surplus. The surplus drives away potential students creating a shortage or equilibrium.

Couple that with retiring baby boomers.

Y’all just seem like bitter pharmacists that hate their jobs.

The dental section was complaining about saturation in major cities also. News flash, everyone flocks to major metropolitan areas so getting jobs there are difficult for everyone.

 

[rph3664]

blockbuster still exists?!

Sure does! The last one is in Bend, Oregon.

 

[Xenophylia]

I've also heard some speculation that PAs and NPs will take on dispensing roles in "minute clinic" like environments, eliminating the need for pharmacists all together. That won't be a positive thing for THEM (or for us, as we will no longer have a role at all), but I could see that happening as traditional pharmacies disappear and are replaced by clinics where diagnosis and dispensing occur in one location.... Anything to cut cost while expanding services these days.

 

[Queen Of Pharmaceutics]

I've also heard some speculation that PAs and NPs will take on dispensing roles in "minute clinic" like environments, eliminating the need for pharmacists all together. That won't be a positive thing for THEM (or for us, as we will no longer have a role at all), but I could see that happening as traditional pharmacies disappear and are replaced by clinics where diagnosis and dispensing occur in one location.... Anything to cut cost while expanding services these days.

Proof or I don’t believe you. PAs and NPs aren’t trained for dispensing.

 

[Xenophylia]

Again, it's just speculation. Physicians never believed that NPs would become autonomous and that has become true in several states. One could argue they're really not trained to be autonomous either. Really, a trained chimp could do dispensing. Visit the physician forums and see exactly how worried the once "untouchable" medical profession is about mid levels. If it can affect them, it sure as hell can affect us. And as there is already a growing saturation of PAs and NPs, its likely salaries wont climb much in the forseeable future except for those who specialize. They're the best workforce bargain in medicine right now. It would be insane to think that the "bean counters" who run pharmacy chains and their lobbying power won't capitalize on that. But by all means, pretend it can't happen...

 

[Xenophylia]

Mid levels can bill for services and generate revenue. We can't. Our profession messed up when it didn't pursue that. We are simply an unnecessary drain on whatever company employs us. You should hear the contempt retail store management has for us. This whole concept dug the graves that all of the naive, snowflake pharmacists will soon by lying in....

 

[Queen Of Pharmaceutics]

Mid levels can bill for services and generate revenue. We can't. Our profession messed up when it didn't pursue that. We are simply an unnecessary drain on whatever company employs us. You should hear the contempt retail store management has for us. This whole concept dug the graves that all of the naive, snowflake pharmacists will soon by lying in....

So what is the point of a pharmacy career then? Why the heck to they train pharmacist in rigorous doctoral programs and pay them six figures if a chimp can do that job? I’m literally curious about this.

 

[Xenophylia]

You've sort of answered your own question. What is the point? Exactly. Obsolescence is the fruit of progress. The bean counters have seen that there's no real need to pay pharmacists six figures. There are other methods being actively explored to obtain the same end that are cheaper. The pharmacy profession- much like the dinosaur- has failed to evolve as the climate has changed. State boards are corrupt and under the thumb of the big chains. Our national organizations have failed to provide any meaningful representation and have sold us out at ever opportunity for their own self interests. Where does that leave us? Exactly. Just because you don't like to hear it doesn't make it less true. And as to why they will train us "in rigorous doctoral programs" is obvious. They want your money. For them to tell you the TRUTH is simply bad for business... It's easy to bash those trying to give a true picture of the reality as trolls and doomsayers. But having seen it in its glory days, I can tell you no one could have ever predicted how badly the profession has fallen. And the bottom is still far away, I suspect.

 

[Queen Of Pharmaceutics]

Not that I don’t want to hear it. It’s just that I believe y’all Exaggerate a bit.

Even you saying pharmacy hasn’t evolved is not true because in some states like Idaho pharmacist are able to prescribe some drugs. More states are giving pharmacists provider status and the scope of practice is expanding.

So yes I think a lot of y’all are miserable and taking your misery out on students. There are shortages in some rural underserved areas you just have to be willing to move.

Constantly posting about how much pharmacy is a dead end job is tiring and frankly not true.

 

[Xenophylia]

Just keep telling yourself that...

 

[Queen Of Pharmaceutics]

Just keep telling yourself that...

Lmao it’s not about me telling myself anything. I’m a realist but I feel y’all are emotional and jaded. I’ve yet to see the main “ Ihate pharmacy so bad that I want to kill myself” posters post real proof that pharmacy is a dead end career.

 

[Xenophylia]

That's because all of the people who have gotten that far down the spiral are already dead...LOL

 

[King2440]

Not that I don’t want to hear it. It’s just that I believe y’all Exaggerate a bit.

Even you saying pharmacy hasn’t evolved is not true because in some states like Idaho pharmacist are able to prescribe some drugs. More states are giving pharmacists provider status and the scope of practice is expanding.

So yes I think a lot of y’all are miserable and taking your misery out on students. There are shortages in some rural underserved areas you just have to be willing to move.

Constantly posting about how much pharmacy is a dead end job is tiring and frankly not true.

Is that what they are feeding you in school? Those “undeserved” areas are getting saturated now.

Also, you spoke of market correction - how long do you think that will take?

I think the main reason people are upset is that we were promised great job stability. Now with so much supply, we are just a cog to corporations. The reason why many many pharmacists are having to seek alternative careers.

Don’t be naive and think this is all made up.

 

[Jacquejam1234]

(Posting the following as a Pre-Pharm starting school in August, not as a moderator)

There are so many threads in the Pre-Pharmacy section regarding all the reasons people should not be going into Pharmacy. I was going to link them, but then this post would be really long.

There are many of us Pre-Pharmacy students on the boards, much to the frustration of those who have come before us.

Yes, Pharmacy is an over-crowded field. I don't know that anyone is truly disputing that fact. But hear me out, there will always be a need for students coming up behind those already in the field in order to replace those that retire, move on, etc. The real issue isn't that there are Pharmacy Students, but how many of them.

I want to offer up a discussion point for you all.

There are 2 primary groups of Pharmacy Students: Those on SDN and those that are not.

Instead of being the doom/gloom to those students you have access to on these boards, why aren't there more posts helping students become the best Pharmacists that they can be in order to mold and shape those you want to be in the field. There are opportunities to network, to share the knowledge of the Collective, to provide real world advice, to offer help navigating the process, etc...

All the non-SDN pharmacy students out there would be missing out on this information and would be at a disadvantage from an information perspective.

If knowledge is power, why aren't we using the power better?

Lmao pharmacy is such a joke. It’s only going to get worse as well. Most of the people on this thread have a high rate of cognitive dissonance. You know deep down pharmacy is a crap profession get out while you can. Anybody thinking about going to pharm school these days is insane.