megj

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LOL the author of that article is Alex Barker, master con artist and the very definition of a scam artist. He started his own company “The Happy PharmD” which is all about being a career coach for unemployed pharmacists and helping them get jobs. The whole premise of how he makes money is to convince pharmacists to not give up hope in this saturated market while extracting easy money from them because when you’re desperate for any job you’re going to start turning to CV/coaching services. He obviously is going to address the saturation head on to add “realism” and “credibility” to his name but spin it in such a way to always keep things positive. If you think about it, he is actually MORE DANGEROUS than faculty of pharmacy schools who spew BS because he 1. Isn’t even a practicing pharmacist, and 2. Preys on the desperate while faculty only prey on the uninformed.

Look at the big picture here - if there are actually jobs for pharmacists out there then people like Alex Barker would themselves be unemployed.
He describes himself as a full time pharmacist and it seems he is giving advise on pharmacist that are burned out and want to get out of retail because they feel unfulfilled not unemployed pharmacist. There seems to be a lot of miserable but employed pharmacist.
 
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This isn’t something I read. That was from a working pharmacist in Oregon. The west isn’t as saturated as the south and the north east. (Newly graduated pharmacist)
Let me tell you about my job hunting experience last year. I have a couple of years of retail experience under my belt and was attempting to relocate. I sent over 50 applications all over western WA and OR and only heard back from two. I talked to one of the DMs of my company in OR and he said they haven't hired a single new pharmacist in the Portland area in the past six years. I haven't applied to CA, but talked to my friend there and he said his district is now fully staffed. There zero pharmacist openings, they just let go a bunch of interns and have no plans of hiring any new interns this year which is unprecedented. It may not be as saturated but it's still pretty bad from my experience.
Not naive at all. I just don’t automatically believe what online strangers say without doing my own research. This article was written by a pharmacist and it seems to hold a balanced view on the saturation.

They explain how unethical it is to keep opening up schools and questions the validity of a looming shortage in 2022. However, this article specifically advises students with a passion for pharmacy to ignore overly emotional disgruntled pharmacist on sdn. Yes the author specifically called you guys out (sdn pharmacist) as being extremely negative.

So yes I take what I read on here with a grain of salt. One of my many options is to go into the Public Health Service. As a prior service member I have a lot of options opened to me. I did my homework, and I happen to love pharmacy.
I'd be cautious about listening to that Alex Barker kid. He makes money off of his blog and acts as some sort of motivational speaker. I'm not even sure he practices pharmacy anymore, if you read his about section he mentions being miserable as a pharmarcist. Steer away from those biased blogs imo and read more objective articles like these: Trends in the Pharmacist Workforce. It sounds like your education will be fully paid for and you are willing to move to middle of nowhere Alaska which may make pharmacy worth it for you. But for a lot of your classmates, this will not be the case. I think if I were in your shoes I would pick dentistry - higher salaries, equal or less education required, faster job growth according to BLS, and dental schools' ridiculously high tuition will be taken care in your case.
 
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BC_89

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This thread has taken a turn quickly (but at least with references, experiences, and stats which I like better than just one-sided statements). I’ll try to somewhat reel it in. Facts and opinions are what makes this thread lively. Although this may have taken a turn from what was in mind, it still does provide its point to separate the typical student from the informed students.

@megj I have no doubt with your past career experiences that you will graduate with little to no debt and place yourself high on the fed gov job pole. If the plan is returning to active duty, working in IHS, or getting a slot with the VA, your a stronger applicant than most and I think you'll do well. Although it seems to be tough-skin from our licensed pharmacists and borderline trolling for some, the facts are indeed out there. The outlook for pharmacy for the average pre-pharm taking on hefty loans does not make financial sense and I also advise against it when I can.

With that, to avoid constant PMs I'm getting from everyone else, I'll just say stay on track with the references and experiences when giving input. Those with disagreeing views, refrain from inflaming others and take the benefits the forum has to offer. Thus far I do like what is offered as long as no one is tempted to start name-calling.

Carry on.
 
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megj

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This thread has taken a turn quickly (but at least with references, experiences, and stats which I like better than just one-sided statements). I’ll try to somewhat reel it in. Facts and opinions are what makes this thread lively. Although this may have taken a turn from what was in mind, it still does provide its point to separate the typical student from the informed students.

@megj I have no doubt with your past career experiences that you will graduate with little to no debt and place yourself high on the fed gov job pole. If the plan is returning to active duty, working in IHS, or getting a slot with the VA, your a stronger applicant than most and I think you'll do well. Although it seems to be tough-skin from our licensed pharmacists and borderline trolling for some, the facts are indeed out there. The outlook for pharmacy for the average pre-pharm taking on hefty loans does not make financial sense and I also advise against it when I can.

With that, to avoid constant PMs I'm getting from everyone else, I'll just say stay on track with the references and experiences when giving input. Those with disagreeing views, refrain from inflaming others and take the benefits the forum has to offer. Thus far I do like what is offered as long as no one is tempted to start name-calling.

Carry on.
Lmao they are PMing you? I don’t know why since they are quoting me and all I’m doing is pointing out inconsistencies in their statements. I never deny the pharmacy job outlook, but when posters say there are zero jobs out there we both know that is not true.

The jobs as a new grad might not be favorable nor in a favorable area but they are out there.

Funny enough every pharmacist going at me in here is employed.

I find it hilarious that they are crying to you when all I am doing is stating my experiences just like they are. I wouldn’t even be in here if they weren’t spamming and deraling the pre-Pharm and school threads.
 

BC_89

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Lmao they are PMing you? I don’t know why since they are quoting me and all I’m doing is pointing out inconsistencies in their statements. I never deny the pharmacy job outlook, but when posters say there are zero jobs out there we both know that is not true.

The jobs as a new grad might not be favorable nor in a favorable area but they are out there.

Funny enough every pharmacist going at me in here is employed.

I find it hilarious that they are crying to you when all I am doing is stating my experiences just like they are. I wouldn’t even be in here if they weren’t spamming and deraling the pre-Pharm and school threads.
The PMs I mostly receive are rarely from our active users.
 

mentos

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Not naive at all. I just don’t automatically believe what online strangers say without doing my own research. This article was written by a pharmacist and it seems to hold a balanced view on the saturation.

They explain how unethical it is to keep opening up schools and questions the validity of a looming shortage in 2022. However, this article specifically advises students with a passion for pharmacy to ignore overly emotional disgruntled pharmacist on sdn. Yes the author specifically called you guys out (sdn pharmacist) as being extremely negative.

So yes I take what I read on here with a grain of salt. One of my many options is to go into the Public Health Service. As a prior service member I have a lot of options opened to me. I did my homework, and I happen to love pharmacy.
"Not naive at all" then shows us an article from Alex Barker the ultimate snake oil salesman hahaha!
 
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DagS132

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To be fair, all of my friends were unemployed for at least 2 years before landing a good job(they had to keep working the same jobs they had before college). If you are truly passionate about your work just like how my friends were, you will eventually find something. But if you are on this site trying to just convince yourself and others how everything is going to be okay but not actually passionate about any of this, then you are making a big mistake going into a career you think will make you happy. There is really no point debating anyone here if you truly want to do this.
 

LadyHalcyon

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Salary complaints are only very recent. For a long time pharmacist salaries were excellent. But in within the past year, hours have been cut severely, wages have dropped 10-15%, and pay raises have been frozen. I don't work for CVS but I do work for a large chain. Traditionally we have been getting 1% salary raises every year. Last year no one got raises. Most recently weekend hours were cut as well as overlap. We all went down from 80 hrs biweekly to 72. So I don't know what you mean by "patience" because the longer I wait, the more it seems stores are getting hours cut or sometimes getting closed completely. Yes maybe your store is well staffed due to being a very busy one, but you are the exception not the rule. Meanwhile pharmacy school tuition is at an all time high. It's getting to the point where some new grad pharmacists are only making $70-80k per year. Accounting for monthly student loan payments, your salary can easily drop to $50k for the next decade (ie you're basically making as much as someone with a bachelor's degree plus the massive student debt). Meanwhile dentists still make $140k per year with similar amount of education. PAs already make $90-100k with only 2 years. Answer me this: why should pharmacists make less money compared to all other healthcare professions with similar or lesser education requirements?
Very similar thoughts many psychologists have
 
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I would be happy too if I worked in a well-staffed pharmacy with 2 other pharmacists as well lol... You need to venture out to many other stores. Why are you talking about patience? You do realize there are many interns who don't even get offers at all after graduation right? Are you doing to be patient when it comes to job hunting because your student loans won't... ?
Why am I talking about patience? Since when should anyone expect to have something handed to them simply because they have a Pharm.D next to their name? Meanwhile, many jobs get at least 100 applications - and at the same time, I hear pharmacists complain that there were 30 - 50 applications for one position.

My point being, establishing a career doesn't happen over night, nor as soon as you hit "submit" on an application. It can take many years. Grit is the number one determiner of success, not simply graduating from professional school or school in general. You don't read many anecdotal stories of highly qualified and successful pharmacy students landing great jobs on here. This appears to a biased platform to b*** about what nearly every job sector experiences.
 

stoichiometrist

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Why am I talking about patience? Since when should anyone expect to have something handed to them simply because they have a Pharm.D next to their name? Meanwhile, many jobs get at least 100 applications - and at the same time, I hear pharmacists complain that there were 30 - 50 applications for one position.

My point being, establishing a career doesn't happen over night, nor as soon as you hit "submit" on an application. It can take many years. Grit is the number one determiner of success, not simply graduating from professional school or school in general. You don't read many anecdotal stories of highly qualified and successful pharmacy students landing great jobs on here. This appears to a biased platform to b*** about what nearly every job sector experiences.
Most other jobs out there don't require you to take out $200k+ in loans for a doctorate only to endure the liability of the healthcare professions, have the job security that is no better than someone with a bachelors, and be treated as a fast food worker. As a pharmacist you get the worst of both worlds - crippling debt and high stress/liability with poor job security.

There ARE professions that are hurting for workers right now, i.e. software engineering or the trades that do not require the liability, stress, student loan burden, and time spent in school.
 
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Most other jobs out there don't require you to take out $200k+ in loans for a doctorate only to endure the liability of the healthcare professions, have the job security that is no better than someone with a bachelors, and be treated as a fast food worker. As a pharmacist you get the worst of both worlds - crippling debt and high stress/liability with poor job security.

There ARE professions that are hurting for workers right now, i.e. software engineering or the trades that do not require the liability, stress, student loan burden, and time spent in school.
Taking out 200K+ in loans to go to pharmacy school is probably the most financially irresponsible decision someone could make going into this field. I plan on attending an in-state school that'll cost half that amount. I'm using tuition as a factor in attending a specific school, not some "glorified" salary after graduation.
 
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BC_89

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Side Note:

@kww2381 I see your a new user (welcome btw), but it’d be in your best interest to change your avatar that doesn’t give out ones identity on a public forum. Many users along with licensed professionals linked to programs use this as an agenda-platform and could easily link your account in ways that’s best left anonymous for a new user.

At that, you have your agency. Proceed as you will.
 

rxkrafted

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Why am I talking about patience? Since when should anyone expect to have something handed to them simply because they have a Pharm.D next to their name? Meanwhile, many jobs get at least 100 applications - and at the same time, I hear pharmacists complain that there were 30 - 50 applications for one position.

My point being, establishing a career doesn't happen over night, nor as soon as you hit "submit" on an application. It can take many years. Grit is the number one determiner of success, not simply graduating from professional school or school in general. You don't read many anecdotal stories of highly qualified and successful pharmacy students landing great jobs on here. This appears to a biased platform to b*** about what nearly every job sector experiences.
Listen kid. You can talk about patience all you want. You can work really hard in school and make lots of connections but if there are no job openings because the market is so saturated, people aren't going to just open up a spot for you just so you can be employed. I have recent grad friends who have classmates who dedicated so many intern hours so that they can expect a position.... sadly non of the interns in that district got full-time positions. I don't even know what point you are tryin to get across. The pharmacy job market is bad and the large student loan debt isn't going to stop accruing interest just because you have grit. Grit doesn't guarantee jobs right out of school when you need it to pay down loans.
 
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mentos

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Listen kid. You can talk about patience all you want. You can work really hard in school and make lots of connections but if there are no job openings because the market is so saturated, people aren't going to just open up a spot for you just so you can be employed. I have recent grad friends who have classmates who dedicated so many intern hours so that they can expect a position.... sadly non of the interns in that district got full-time positions. I don't even know what point you are tryin to get across. The pharmacy job market is bad and the large student loan debt isn't going to stop accruing interest just because you have grit. Grit doesn't guarantee jobs right out of school when you need it to pay down loans.
In the Hunger Games, 24 people went in and only one came out. In pharmacy, there are only 30-50 people applying for one pharmacy job, not 100! All you need is grit!
 

stoichiometrist

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In the Hunger Games, 24 people went in and only one came out. In pharmacy, there are only 30-50 people applying for one pharmacy job, not 100! All you need is grit!
I’m from District 1 so I have all the support. Losing the Hunger Games won’t happen to me.
 

Mr. Corporate Pharmacist

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Why am I talking about patience? Since when should anyone expect to have something handed to them simply because they have a Pharm.D next to their name? Meanwhile, many jobs get at least 100 applications - and at the same time, I hear pharmacists complain that there were 30 - 50 applications for one position.

My point being, establishing a career doesn't happen over night, nor as soon as you hit "submit" on an application. It can take many years. Grit is the number one determiner of success, not simply graduating from professional school or school in general. You don't read many anecdotal stories of highly qualified and successful pharmacy students landing great jobs on here. This appears to a biased platform to b*** about what nearly every job sector experiences.
It sounds like you know what you're getting into. I agree with your stance on the need for differentiation as a job applicant post graduation.

The OP asked about discussion outside the normal doom and gloom, so I appreciate you trying to contribute a different perspective than everyone else.

We all know that job saturation for pharmacy is in full effect. Working conditions are worse than ever. So is pay.

So what can future pharmacists do about it? How can seasoned pharmacists help?

For one, I am not a politician. So I have very little to contribute around legislature, the economics of pharmacy schools as businesses, or changing corporate culture.

Instead, I'll focus on things every single person is able to influence: their own actions.

What you say about "grit" is something we need to expand on to benefit others.

To me, grit is:

1) Building transferable skills to help differentiate and market yourself in a variety of positions
a. Research what employers value (every company, district, and hiring manager is different)
b. Use internships, organizations, and work to build experience that will transfer to your future job role
c. Document your experiences and create power stories that you can talk about

2) Networking and building relationships to position yourself favorably in the market and/or on the corporate ladder
a. Find ways to nurture and strengthen relationships early on and all throughout your years as a student (do not wait until your last year like most people).
b. Add value constantly to your network (personal and professional).
c. Become an influencer and bridge for resources when people need (Popularity is not the goal, but it doesn't hurt to expand your reach)

3) Acing interviews, negotiating for more, and maximizing the value you can add to potential employers
a. Practice interviewing from Day 1 of pharmacy school (having talent and character is worthless if you cant demonstrate it during an interview)
b. Learn to assess what employers value most in order to connect tangible skills with your proposition
c. Research negotiation tips, HR protocols, and company budgets

Who else wants to contribute and help OP plus all the other SDN pre-pharms?
 
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Mr. Corporate Pharmacist

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Here are some words I wrote to help:

How I failed at networking

What I use to crush interviews

Advice for new grads who are afraid of accepting pharmacy manager positions
 
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Mar 18, 2019
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Listen kid. You can talk about patience all you want. You can work really hard in school and make lots of connections but if there are no job openings because the market is so saturated, people aren't going to just open up a spot for you just so you can be employed. I have recent grad friends who have classmates who dedicated so many intern hours so that they can expect a position.... sadly non of the interns in that district got full-time positions. I don't even know what point you are tryin to get across. The pharmacy job market is bad and the large student loan debt isn't going to stop accruing interest just because you have grit. Grit doesn't guarantee jobs right out of school when you need it to pay down loans.
Literally all I gathered from that was, "Interns are finding part time work. Loans are expensive."
A) Use part time work to your advantage. B) Be financially responsible. The loans are an investment into their education and career.

Did you not read what I had said? Sometimes it takes years to develop a career. At least they got their foot in the door. Congrats to them. They have 30+ years left in the field to gain experience and gain full-time employment.

I don't appreciate the position of, "you can work as a hard as you want, but it'll get you no where." You can settle with that outlook, but all the successful people I know don't have that mindset.
 
Mar 18, 2019
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Side Note:

@kww2381 I see your a new user (welcome btw), but it’d be in your best interest to change your avatar that doesn’t give out ones identity on a public forum. Many users along with licensed professionals linked to programs use this as an agenda-platform and could easily link your account in ways that’s best left anonymous for a new user.

At that, you have your agency. Proceed as you will.
Thanks!!!
 

Timbo

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Dec 31, 2010
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Why am I talking about patience? Since when should anyone expect to have something handed to them simply because they have a Pharm.D next to their name? Meanwhile, many jobs get at least 100 applications - and at the same time, I hear pharmacists complain that there were 30 - 50 applications for one position.

My point being, establishing a career doesn't happen over night, nor as soon as you hit "submit" on an application. It can take many years. Grit is the number one determiner of success, not simply graduating from professional school or school in general. You don't read many anecdotal stories of highly qualified and successful pharmacy students landing great jobs on here. This appears to a biased platform to b*** about what nearly every job sector experiences.
Literally all I gathered from that was, "Interns are finding part time work. Loans are expensive."
A) Use part time work to your advantage. B) Be financially responsible. The loans are an investment into their education and career.

Did you not read what I had said? Sometimes it takes years to develop a career. At least they got their foot in the door. Congrats to them. They have 30+ years left in the field to gain experience and gain full-time employment.

I don't appreciate the position of, "you can work as a hard as you want, but it'll get you no where." You can settle with that outlook, but all the successful people I know don't have that mindset.
Not sure what you mean by "patience"? Do you mean patience in finding a job if you're unemployed or patience in getting a higher salary?
I don't mean to pile on you, but I think that's really bad advice. If you're a P4 and don't have a job lined up, forget patience, you should find a job ASAP. The longer you remain unemployed after graduation, the less attractive you will be to employers. Employment gaps never look good on a resume and in this job market, you need to avoid anything that will put you at a disadvantage.

If you're talking about patience in attaining higher salaries as pharmacist, traditionally a pharmacist's salary grows very little throughout his or her career. Even when getting promoted from float to staff or staff to PIC, your raise is relatively minimal (to the point that many people turn down those positions because it's not worth the extra stress). Now most recently, salaries have been going down for a lot of people, not up. Many stores have closed, staff hours have been cut, overlap hours are slowly being done away with, pay raises have been frozen, etc. So the "patience" you suggest in this case doesn't make sense because the longer you wait, the more cuts are going to happen and the less money you'll make.

Not sure which other jobs you're comparing pharmacy to, but if you compare us to other healthcare professions (e.g. MDs, PAs, dentists, etc.), most of those people can relatively easily find full time and well paying employment right out of school. Meanwhile have you noticed that pharmacy is the only profession with a dedicated "Job Market" sub-forum on SDN?
 
Mar 18, 2019
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talking about patience while unemployed with over 100k debt and at least 50-100 competitors for the same job

omfg

some ppl do live in fairytales
lol, some people graduate with 100K debt from undergrad just to get a job working 40K/year. Is it me or is your comment the reverberation of pharmacists (or any professional for that matter) who expect a job hand-delivered on a silver platter?

The people who live in fairytales are the ones who go into a career expecting everything handed to them whenever it's convenient. I wouldn't consider "hard work" to be uploading mediocre resumes to 100+ jobs on indeed.

Patience is not simply lying in wait. It's about enriching your experience at whatever stage you are in the hopes that your investment pays off in the future.

Oh wait, I forgot, it seems like people who want to talk on certain discussion boards portray life as one big struggle to pay a fat loan they could have otherwise avoided by not pursuing a career based solely on the expected paycheck.
 
Mar 18, 2019
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61
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Pre-Pharmacy
Not sure what you mean by "patience"? Do you mean patience in finding a job if you're unemployed or patience in getting a higher salary?
I don't mean to pile on you, but I think that's really bad advice. If you're a P4 and don't have a job lined up, forget patience, you should find a job ASAP. The longer you remain unemployed after graduation, the less attractive you will be to employers. Employment gaps never look good on a resume and in this job market, you need to avoid anything that will put you at a disadvantage.

If you're talking about patience in attaining higher salaries as pharmacist, traditionally a pharmacist's salary grows very little throughout his or her career. Even when getting promoted from float to staff or staff to PIC, your raise is relatively minimal (to the point that many people turn down those positions because it's not worth the extra stress). Now most recently, salaries have been going down for a lot of people, not up. Many stores have closed, staff hours have been cut, overlap hours are slowly being done away with, pay raises have been frozen, etc. So the "patience" you suggest in this case doesn't make sense because the longer you wait, the more cuts are going to happen and the less money you'll make.

Not sure which other jobs you're comparing pharmacy to, but if you compare us to other healthcare professions (e.g. MDs, PAs, dentists, etc.), most of those people can relatively easily find full time and well paying employment right out of school. Meanwhile have you noticed that pharmacy is the only profession with a dedicated "Job Market" sub-forum on SDN?
I'm not ignorant as to the state of the job market.

When I say patience, I'm talking about taking job opportunities that are less than desirable, working in a variety of settings, enriching your credentials by pursuing other educational paths, etc.

This is the vibe I get when I read stuff on SDN and reddit: "Expecting a full time, six figure salary. Oh darn, its 2019 and the job market is saturated. Run for this hills." These people are painting pharmacy as a career for people who just want a job that has enough digits in their salary to cover massive debt. That's simply not true. Pharmacy is dynamic and changing and can open so many doors for people. Since when has settling become so attractive?
 

firework

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Clinical research associate is a job worth trying for new pharmD grad. Yes, these jobs are traditionally filled by nurses and the starting salary is much lower compared to retail, but there’s lots of room for growth, I personally know people who earns $150k after 10 years into clinical study career, and that’s pretty typical.
 

mentos

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Pharmacy is dynamic and changing and can open so many doors for people.
Not really, a pharmD is one of the least versatile degrees out there. It's a niche. The majority will be floating in retail with limited hours or making 40k in a residency which does not guarantee anything. A very small percentage end up in institutional, managed care, industry, etc.

Clinical research associate is a job worth trying for new pharmD grad. Yes, these jobs are traditionally filled by nurses and the starting salary is much lower compared to retail, but there’s lots of room for growth, I personally know people who earns $150k after 10 years into clinical study career, and that’s pretty typical.
Why get a pharmD then? This post proved my previous point about how pharmacy does not open many doors. You can become an RN for a fraction of the cost and time, and work anywhere you want. And get this same job as a pharmD.
 
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Timbo

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When I say patience, I'm talking about taking job opportunities that are less than desirable, working in a variety of settings, enriching your credentials by pursuing other educational paths, etc.
I can agree with that and a lot of people are already doing that. As I mentioned earlier, I have recently precepted a few P4s who still at this time haven't gotten any job offers. They are pretty much applying everywhere (IHS, Alaska, etc... any undesirable positions you can think of). Even the undesirable jobs are difficult to land now.

This is the vibe I get when I read stuff on SDN and reddit: "Expecting a full time, six figure salary. Oh darn, its 2019 and the job market is saturated. Run for this hills." These people are painting pharmacy as a career for people who just want a job that has enough digits in their salary to cover massive debt. That's simply not true. Pharmacy is dynamic and changing and can open so many doors for people. Since when has settling become so attractive?
Why shouldn't pharmacists make six figs out of school though? Other healthcare professions with equivalent or lesser schooling do. You sound like you don't care about debt or money which is great, but you are the minority. Most people want to be able to care for their families, they have bills and a mortgages, etc. From a strictly financial standpoint, if you calculate cost opportunity by comparing pharmacy to other healthcare professions or even STEM careers, pharmacy is quickly becoming a terrible choice (as far as traditional pharmacist roles anyway). I can't speak for non-traditional pharmacist roles, but I know they account for a very small percentage of where pharmacists work. The vast majority are going to be in retail and hospital. I wonder, what is your ultimate goal? What are you going to do with your PharmD degree? It sounds like you have no plans to settle for retail?
 
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megj

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I can agree with that and a lot of people are already doing that. As I mentioned earlier, I have recently precepted a few P4s who still at this time haven't gotten any job offers. They are pretty much applying everywhere (IHS, Alaska, etc... any undesirable positions you can think of). Even the undesirable jobs are difficult to land now.


Why shouldn't pharmacists make six figs out of school though? Other healthcare professions with equivalent or lesser schooling do. You sound like you don't care about debt or money which is great, but you are the minority. Most people want to be able to care for their families, they have bills and a mortgages, etc. From a strictly financial standpoint, if you calculate cost opportunity by comparing pharmacy to other healthcare professions or even STEM careers, pharmacy is quickly becoming a terrible choice. I can't speak for non-traditional pharmacist roles, but I know they account for a very small percentage of where pharmacists work. The vast majority are going to be in retail and hospital. I wonder, what is your ultimate goal? What are you going to do with your PharmD degree? It sounds like you have no plans to settle for retail?
There are states that have a pharmacy demand index of 4 such as Alaska, Louisiana, and Mississippi. Students are going to have to move to the jobs. Stop saying there are zero jobs out there. That’s not true and you are being hyperbolic. It may not be as easy as finding a nursing job but you can get a job.
 

Timbo

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There are states that have a pharmacy demand index of 4 such as Alaska, Louisiana, and Mississippi. Students are going to have to move to the jobs. Stop saying there are zero jobs out there. That’s not true and you are being hyperbolic. It may not be as easy as finding a nursing job but you can get a job.
I never said there are zero job. I agree with you there are still jobs out there, but I'm skeptical that will still be the case a short few years from now. There's ~14,500 new pharmDs who graduate every year and I highly doubt there's that many new job openings per year.
 
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Sine Cura

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Why is this dude obsessed with a little hyperbole about saturation ("stop saying there are zero jobs out there," which actually isn't what people are saying, and saturation != no jobs) yet take things like Alex Barker's "blog" and PDI at face value?

In fact there is a job in my "district" for 16 hrs/week part time only an hr away from civilization in northern CA. A great starter job! This is one of two openings for staff RPH in the last 5 years for my particular "district".
 
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There are states that have a pharmacy demand index of 4 such as Alaska, Louisiana, and Mississippi. Students are going to have to move to the jobs. Stop saying there are zero jobs out there. That’s not true and you are being hyperbolic. It may not be as easy as finding a nursing job but you can get a job.
I’ve always questioned the validity of PDI given that the people who fill out the surveys for the PDI are hiring managers who have every incentive to say that there is a demand for pharmacists; therefore there is a lot of bias and a massive conflict of interest (because if you can convince pre-pharms to commit to pharmacy then you’ll be increasing the supply and can further reduce wages).

Even if PDI was accurate, it’s steadily been dropping. Based on Q4 2018 data from their website, the overall PDI for retail pharmacists is 2.96 and the overall PDI for hospital pharmacists is 2.60, while the only areas where the PDI is >3 are specialist roles which can include anything from oncology to doing MTMs. What this tells me is that people are generally thinking that you need to get specialist training because the jobs are there, but this doesn’t account for the number of specialist jobs actually needed. In other words, 90% of pharmacists end up in retail or hospital staff so to say that there is a PDI of 4 for specialists is just ridiculous and doesn’t address the issue of “how do the 90% get jobs?”.
 

megj

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Why is this dude obsessed with a little hyperbole about saturation ("stop saying there are zero jobs out there," which actually isn't what people are saying, and saturation != no jobs) yet take things like Alex Barker's "blog" and PDI at face value?

In fact there is a job in my "district" for 16 hrs/week part time only an hr away from civilization in northern CA. A great starter job! This is one of two openings for staff RPH in the last 5 years for my particular "district".
I’m not a dude, and I like for people to be truthful and to the point. I’m a very literal person.
 

BC_89

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I’m not a dude, and I like for people to be truthful and to the point. I’m a very literal person.
You may indeed be an outlier than most students. I can only presume you will be utilizing your post 9-11 entitlements and with the help of classmates pocket the difference of your tax exempt housing allowance month after month. If your total student loans can be closer to 50k rather than 100k then your off to a good start. You've also expressed interest in commissioning back to the military (which you'd be a top candidate as a prior service member). Understand that your entitlements and experience in the uniformed services puts you in a difference boat than most.

As for Alex Barker, I would not listen to a for-profit young and recent PharmD holder when most of his information can be had on here (with some digging no doubt) for free. The main reason his business works as it does is due to targeting a student audience who went into pharmacy without ever working in that environment (let alone actually have a bachelors). Thus, graduates may be as young as 22 - 23 with no job or CV experience and networking skills. The lack of confidence is an ingenious way to help the need to "switch" out of retail with outside help (ingenious business proposal). I know a few colleagues on this site and plan to utilize the info of a few individuals I've corresponded on here for the past years to help with my already wide networking skills (deployment and pcs locations and VA manager references).

Now as for PDI stats (if they are true stats) they’ll always have a caveat of how skewed the information is. I wouldn't trust them as it depends on panelists who are also managers that need to meet a metric. Its demonstrated right here in the link:

PDI

This post was created to help "us" outliers on how to prepare in this indeed saturated market. I've worked in pharmacy for many years and with my steady pension I can financially take more risk tolerance than most. I would never recommend this career to a young student with 200k+ of student debt and no experience in a pharmacy. Jobs are out there, but few have long term career opportunities with stagnant income and inflation that corrodes the difference. If your passionate and want an admin role in the services, your in a good spot. Any loans and limited networking skills will cost you.

TLDR; your in a different boat than most students. Alex Barker and PDI are skewed and not reliable resources (hyperlink). I would never convince a student with 200k+ and limited experience in pharmacy to pursue this field. Stick with uniformed services or part time civilian jobs and if that makes you happy you will be fine. Work hard and you'll get a job, but that doesn't take away the notion that pharmacy is in a bad place right now. Speaking for you alone, I think youll be fine, not most of your future classmates though.
 

megj

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You may indeed be an outlier than most students. I can only presume you will be utilizing your post 9-11 entitlements and with the help of classmates pocket the difference of your tax exempt housing allowance month after month. If your total student loans can be closer to 50k rather than 100k then your off to a good start. You've also expressed interest in commissioning back to the military (which you'd be a top candidate as a prior service member). Understand that your entitlements and experience in the uniformed services puts you in a difference boat than most.

As for Alex Barker, I would not listen to a for-profit young and recent PharmD holder when most of his information can be had on here (with some digging no doubt) for free. The main reason his business works as it does is due to targeting a student audience who went into pharmacy without ever working in that environment (let alone actually have a bachelors). Thus, graduates may be as a young as 22 - 23 with no job or CV experience and networking skills. The lack of confidence is an ingenious way to help the need to "switch" out of retail with outside help (ingenious business proposal). I know a few colleagues on this site and plan to utilize the info of a few individuals I've corresponded on here for the past years to help with my already wide networking skills (deployment and pcs locations and VA manager references). PDI stats (if they are true stats) will always have a caveat of how skewed the information is. I wouldn't trust them either as it depends on panelists who are also managers that need to meet a metric. It says it right here in the link:

PDI

This post was created to help "us" outliers on how to prepare in this indeed saturated market (I had to fight tooth and nail just to create the only job market sub forum due to the recession this career is headed). I've worked in pharmacy for many years and with my steady pension I can financially take more risk tolerance than most. I would never recommend this career to a young student with 200k+ of student debt and no experience in a pharmacy. Jobs are out there, but few have long term career opportunities with stagnant income and inflation that corrodes the difference. If your passionate and want an admin role in the services, your in a good spot. Any loans and limited networking skills will cost you.

TLDR; your in a different boat than most students. Alex Barker and PDI are skewed and not reliable resources (hyperlink). I would never convince a student with 200k+ and limited experience in pharmacy to pursue this field. Stick with uniformed services or part time civilian jobs and if that makes you happy you will be fine. Work hard and you'll get a job, but that doesn't take away the notion that pharmacy is in a bad place right now. Speaking for you alone, I think youll be fine, not most of your future classmates though.
Thanks for your input. Isn’t the pdi self reporting? It can be inaccurate because not enough pharmacist decide to participate in the survey ( as is the case for this current quarter)

Pharmacy has many areas that you can practice in, and if you have a passion for pharmaceutical science and you excel then I feel as though you will be alright. Now if you are getting in pharmacy solely for the money then you will be disappointed.

According to a practice pharmacist that I know there are still rural places in need of pharmacists and offering bonuses.

The only reason why I was comfortable to pursue pharmacy was because I am willing to move anywhere in the states. If you are a pharmacy student with a family and you do not want to relocate then yes you will have problem.

I think that we should stick to facts when talking about the saturation. A lot of members on here like to post their own biased predictions, anyone can do that. The fact is that pharmacy school can be a good option for certain types of students. You might have to move for a job, rural areas continue to be in demand because once pharmacist gain experience they move to more desirable areas. More hospital jobs are opening up, some states are fighting for provider status.

I don’t believe there will be mass unemployment for pharmacist. That wouldn’t help the Pharm schools at all if thousands of students became unemployed and defaulted on their loans.
 

mentos

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I don’t believe there will be mass unemployment for pharmacist. That wouldn’t help the Pharm schools at all if thousands of students became unemployed and defaulted on their loans.
No offense but this is even more naive than your previous posts. Ever heard of law school? There has been mass unemployment for law graduates for over a decade. The schools couldn't care less, they just want your money. And for some reason, students just keep going to these schools and taking out massive debt anyway. They say things just like what your just said and end up unemployed. Pharmacy is not as saturated as law yet but it will be soon... Possibly by the time you graduate.
 
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According to a practice pharmacist that I know there are still rural places in need of pharmacists and offering bonuses.

The only reason why I was comfortable to pursue pharmacy was because I am willing to move anywhere in the states. If you are a pharmacy student with a family and you do not want to relocate then yes you will have problem.

I think that we should stick to facts when talking about the saturation. A lot of members on here like to post their own biased predictions, anyone can do that. The fact is that pharmacy school can be a good option for certain types of students. You might have to move for a job, rural areas continue to be in demand because once pharmacist gain experience they move to more desirable areas. More hospital jobs are opening up, some states are fighting for provider status.

I don’t believe there will be mass unemployment for pharmacist. That wouldn’t help the Pharm schools at all if thousands of students became unemployed and defaulted on their loans.
See, the problem with that line of thinking is that it’s not necessarily about “being open-minded to moving” that’s the issue so much as it is the logistics behind getting licensed in other states to even be eligible to apply for those jobs.

For example, let’s say you’re finishing up school in California and are looking for jobs/willing to move anywhere in the country. You do a national search and identify 2 jobs in Alaska, 2 jobs in New Mexico and 3 jobs in North Dakota. You don’t have any details around whether these are “hard to fill/high turnover” positions because you don’t know anyone living in those states. Do you apply blindly without getting licensed in those states and run the real risk of getting screened out immediately by their HR system because they can easily take an in-state student who is already licensed and can start right away (and never knowing/hearing back, thus you’re banking on false hopes)? Or do you get licensed in those states before you apply, in which case is it worth getting licensed in somewhere like Alaska where you’re likely throwing away lots of money and months of time for the sake of applying for 2 jobs in a random state that you at best have a long shot at landing? And which state do you even start with? Might as well get licensed in all 50 if this was the strategy, right? So no matter what, it just seems like a lose-lose situation for any candidate when it comes to the “I will be ok so long as I am willing to relocate” mentality and I don’t blame people for never relocating and instead changing careers altogether and/or staying unemployed because of this matter.

Got to seriously think things through about this saturation stuff because sometimes there is no silver lining or workaround. That’s the best advice I can give.
 
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Students' defaulting on loans doesn't hurt or ultimately matter to the schools. By that time, they've got their money, which is all they care about. Academia prospers by preying on the stupid and/ or uninformed these days.
 

megj

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Students' defaulting on loans doesn't hurt or ultimately matter to the schools. By that time, they've got their money, which is all they care about. Academia prospers by preying on the stupid and/ or uninformed these days.
Not true if a certain percentage of students default on their loans that school loses its ability to use financial aid.
 

rxkrafted

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I think that we should stick to facts when talking about the saturation. A lot of members on here like to post their own biased predictions, anyone can do that. The fact is that pharmacy school can be a good option for certain types of students. You might have to move for a job, rural areas continue to be in demand because once pharmacist gain experience they move to more desirable areas. More hospital jobs are opening up, some states are fighting for provider status.

I don’t believe there will be mass unemployment for pharmacist. That wouldn’t help the Pharm schools at all if thousands of students became unemployed and defaulted on their loans.
I'm not posting predictions. I'm posting things that I am observing in my area and in many other states from classmates/close friends. Where are you hearing or seeing that more hospital jobs are opening up lol? Even if you see these postings on these job search engines, they are already being filled by internal recommendations. Some states are fighting for provider status? This has been ongoing for YEARSS. What year in pharmacy school are you?
 

TerryTerry

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lol, some people graduate with 100K debt from undergrad just to get a job working 40K/year. Is it me or is your comment the reverberation of pharmacists (or any professional for that matter) who expect a job hand-delivered on a silver platter?

The people who live in fairytales are the ones who go into a career expecting everything handed to them whenever it's convenient. I wouldn't consider "hard work" to be uploading mediocre resumes to 100+ jobs on indeed.

Patience is not simply lying in wait. It's about enriching your experience at whatever stage you are in the hopes that your investment pays off in the future.

Oh wait, I forgot, it seems like people who want to talk on certain discussion boards portray life as one big struggle to pay a fat loan they could have otherwise avoided by not pursuing a career based solely on the expected paycheck.
It is sad how you pre-pharms are still confused about what we are ultimately trying to tell you.
It`s not about money. It`s about job security and respect.

Do what you want. Just know what you are getting into when you do.
 

Sine Cura

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What would bootlickers know about respect? It apparently doesn't even register as an issue

Source?

Biased

Source?

Source!?

As I've told my techs who actually are going to pharmacy school, you gotta grind AND there are no guarantees. ROI is getting worse and worse. And it is an investment. You're putting your time and effort that you cannot get back toward this.
 
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Maybe it's easier to see the fall of the pharmacy profession in hindsight. Knowing what it once was compared to the sh*tshow it has become. The pre-pharms clearly just don't get it and I don't think any amount of evidence is going to sway them. They've been taught from birth that THEY- as individuals- are the exception to everything. They are each unique and special and have superpowers that only they can see. Just because the profession has failed us doesn't mean it will do so for them because they are SPECIAL. They will succeed where we have all failed. LOL- I wish them luck... (Really- I don't care- anyone who signs up for this trainwreck these days deserves what they get)
 

stoichiometrist

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You need to be willing to make major sacrifices if you truly think that pharmacy is your calling. Teachers, artists, actors, etc. who are truly passionate about their profession are willing to go great lengths to fulfill their dreams, including working second low wage jobs to supplant their incomes to pay rent. Some might even PAY for opportunities to practice their profession, as how some teachers buy school supplies for their students with their own money.

Yet here in the pre-pharm forum, you hear:
  • Saturation? What saturation?
  • Sure, there is saturation but it won't affect me because I'm special and more talented, hardworking, and charismatic than others.
  • I do not plan to work in retail ever.
  • I do not want to move out of California.
 

mentos

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So far the only "evidence" debunking saturation that prepharms have shown us is an article by Alex Barker. Don't worry everyone, Alex Barker says it will be okay!
 
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Maybe it's easier to see the fall of the pharmacy profession in hindsight. Knowing what it once was compared to the sh*tshow it has become. The pre-pharms clearly just don't get it and I don't think any amount of evidence is going to sway them. They've been taught from birth that THEY- as individuals- are the exception to everything. They are each unique and special and have superpowers that only they can see. Just because the profession has failed us doesn't mean it will do so for them because they are SPECIAL. They will succeed where we have all failed. LOL- I wish them luck... (Really- I don't care- anyone who signs up for this trainwreck these days deserves what they get)
Yep, and it’s because millenials grow up with participation trophies for everything. So why shouldn’t you get a unicorn job as a reward for participating in pharmacy school?
 
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Really pharmacy might be the ultimate "millenial killer"- the concept of risk or effort without reward is unknown to them.
 

stoichiometrist

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If you are going into pharmacy with the plan of going into nontraditional areas or even avoiding retail, here are your odds: