Yet Another Caribbean DANGER!! Thread

[Neutropix]

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[NotASerialKiller]

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It's like a child molester waving a bat?

 

[Spinach Dip]

There's a smiley for that

 

[zero0]

Another fun fact about statistics - if you understand how they work and look at the data a bit yourself, you can obtain a lot of meaningful information from them. You know, if you want to put some legwork in instead of dismissing them with trite expressions

But...I care so little

ugh fine

I'm not a Caribbean supporter or anything, but when most people think Caribbean, they think big 4, and their match rates are 80-90% on average in the past few years. Unfortunately, the other 80 million Caribbean schools can't match for **** and bring the overall average down.

As for SGU, according to their website about 29% of their students find positions outside the match.

It's not as cut and dry as some of the numbers that were thrown out make it seem is the point. That said, ffs don't go to the Caribbean, matching isn't their only problem down there.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

But...I care so little

ugh fine

I'm not a Caribbean supporter or anything, but when most people think Caribbean, they think big 4, and their match rates are 80-90% on average in the past few years. Unfortunately, the other 80 million Caribbean schools can't match for **** and bring the overall average down.

As for SGU, according to their website about 29% of their students find positions outside the match.

It's not as cut and dry as some of the numbers that were thrown out make it seem is the point. That said, ffs don't go to the Caribbean, matching isn't their only problem down there.

If you're gonna play the too-cool-for-school handwaving brat at least get your own numbers right

 

[Lawpy]

<----- this thread

There's a smiley for that

If you're worried about endangering (dead) animals, use

 

[nolookpass]

You have to score higher than US grads and you have to work harder on your often shady clinical rotations to try to get good LORs. You will have higher success in primary care, often in undesirable locations. But you have to survive the high attrition to even make it that far. Many also only match into preliminary spots and may still not match into a residency. Your friend's school won't be helping you with any of that.
Once you don't match, plan on moving into your parent's basement while you try to find a low paying research job at an academic canter to buff your resume and try again next year.
When that fails, you're sitting on 5 wasted years and at least a quarter of a million dollars in debt. Hopefully you have an engineering degree and can get a good job. FYI, Starbucks baristas get a nice benefit package, you know, for your friend.

Appreciate it. And it really is for a friend. I knew that comment would sound fishy, but I'm really not considering it. Thanks again

 

[Mad Jack]

See it this way: according to the statistics ITT, one has better odds to get into a residency from the Caribbeans than to get into medical school (50% vs 40%).

You call the first "only a coin flip's chance of matching", therefore I assume you call the second "two in five coin flips chance of matching" and tell every premed to stay away from medical school at all costs? You don't, of course, because statistics are more complicated than that. Average odds do not translate to individual realities -it's why there are e.g. published tables with acceptance rates based on GPA and MCAT which differ wildly from the average- and your avoidance of this reality -I say you although it's a generalized habit here- is very reminiscent of propaganda speech.

Again, the Caribbeans constitute a risky option, but to pretend that it's literally a "coin flip" (aka completely out of your control) to get a residency from is ludicrous.

Not getting into medical school costs a few hundred dollars and a few weeks of your life.

Not getting a residency costs hundreds of thousands of dollars and four to five years of your life (given that many Carib graduates take five years to complete their studies).

The two are in no way equivalent, to pretend otherwise is asinine.

 

[zero0]

If you're gonna play the too-cool-for-school handwaving brat at least get your own numbers right

 

[Cytarabine]

If you're worried about endangering (dead) animals, use

Banana lives matter

 

[Lawpy]

Banana lives matter

I stand corrected

Now back to the Caribbean conversation. A match rate equivalent to two coin flips is bad.

 

[gyngyn]

As an aside to this, one of my students recently matriculated into an Ivy medical school, where there were 6 or 7 MDs as instructors in the anatomy lab. All of them are off-shore grads and, at least in a few cases, they couldnt practice in the US hence their current position which is essentially an instructor/adjunct level

I had a Caribbean grad as a PA student in clinic recently (since it's now time for illustrations). She never got a residency, but manged to get accepted to PA school!

 

[Law2Doc]

...
Don't have enough data on this one! Perhaps out clinical colleagues can chime in?...
In over 30 years in academia, I've never met a Carib post-doc, fellow or PI...

To be fair I do know a couple of offshore grads who are in fellowship and on track to have nice careers. But I also know lottery winners...

 

[GrapesofRath]

.

 

[GrapesofRath]

To be fair I do know a couple of offshore grads who are in fellowship and on track to have nice careers. But I also know lottery winners...

15 years ago this was very believable and common. Now? I think this thread says all that needs to be said about the current state of Caribbean students

 

[Neutropix]

If you're worried about endangering (dead) animals, use

#bananalivesmatter

 

[Neutropix]

Banana lives matter

OH YOU BEAT ME TO IT!!!!!!!!! AHGHGHG.

 

[flyingeagle]

I try explaining this to my dad, a successful Caribbean graduate, and he cannot comprehend it. He also still thinks gap years are bad and only for people who do not have good stats. I'll have to show him the data from this thread.

 

[Gandyy]

I try explaining this to my dad, a successful Caribbean graduate, and he cannot comprehend it. He also still thinks gap years are bad and only for people who do not have good stats. I'll have to show him the data from this thread.

That is such a bad mentality.

 

[Tommyguns89]

I think some people are just so shallow that they do not want the D.O. title after their name. I think its as simple as that for some Caribbean grads.

I know at least one person like this. But I dont even think it is shallowness as much as it is ignorance. A lot of people dont know that D.O. = fully licensed physician.

 

[Tommyguns89]

I preface this post by saying that anyone should go DO over caribbean.

However, you don't have to be smack in the average of statistics. I'd wager that many -most- caribbean attendees were college students with poor work habits, tendency to procrastination, little ECs, etc, who chose the easy way out instead of fixing their problems and applying later. It's likely that these students have the same issues in med school now, therefore it's not surprising that so few of them match.

But for a motivated student who knows what to do to improve and acts on it, and makes every effort to beast step 1, get good LoRs, etc, I bet that the odds to get a residency spot are much higher than the average.

It's like medical school admissions, where 40% match, but multiple adcoms have stated that sometimes up to 50% of the applicants pool has absolutely no business applying (terrible stats, virtually no clinical exposure, etc). Therefore most people who took the time to check the boxes and have realistic stats for where they apply do get in.

(Of course, there is still a stigma attached to caribbean which is real and separate from one's performance. Again, one should always choose DO over caribbean. But it's not always the death sentence people make it to be.)

I was wondering about this. I wonder what the match rate would be for people with good undergrad stats but dont get into US MD or DO for whatever reason, be it lack of ECs, bad interviewing, bad luck, IAs, etc.

 

[Stagg737]

Unfortunately matching in Canada is also harder as a US DO than US MD, which is why I'm not applying to DO schools this cycle. Not sure what their reasoning is.

This may be a non-issue in a few years. From what I understand, the reason it's hard to go back to Canada as a DO is because you MUST complete an ACGME residency since Canada doesn't accept AOA program graduates. Since the merger is occurring all programs will be ACGME accredited and there will be no AOA programs. Someone with more experience or expertise in this area can correct me, but as far as I can see after the merger happens it shouldn't make a difference for Canadian students since all programs will be ACGME and thus acceptable to Canadian regulations.

I'm not a Caribbean supporter or anything, but when most people think Caribbean, they think big 4, and their match rates are 80-90% on average in the past few years. Unfortunately, the other 80 million Caribbean schools can't match for **** and bring the overall average down.

As for SGU, according to their website about 29% of their students find positions outside the match.

It's not as cut and dry as some of the numbers that were thrown out make it seem is the point. That said, ffs don't go to the Caribbean, matching isn't their only problem down there.

Keep in mind a few things.... First, there is a difference between matching and placing. Either way you get to be a doc, but if you place you're not getting into one of the programs you wanted to go to. Second, many of these schools are not accredited and don't have to report statistics to any governing body. This means they might not necessarily report the whole truth. As someone else said earlier, some of these schools may report an 80% match rate when in reality significantly less matched and many people had to scramble into whatever was left resulting in an 80% placement rate. A friend at a Caribbean school told me he was pretty sure this happened a year or two ago at the big 4 school he went to. The last thing to keep in mind, as has been said many times, is that those numbers only account for people who applied to the match that year. That doesn't account for the people who drop out/are expelled or individuals who take 5-6 years to graduate before they apply to the match. I know more than 1 Carib student that took a year 'off' to study for Step 1 because they didn't feel their curriculum prepared them adequately.

For a select few, the Caribbean might not be a terrible option, but for the vast majority, especially those desiring to practice in the U.S., it's just plain dumb.

 

[GrapesofRath]

So with the cutting of Caribbean residency slots, if I'm guessing correctly that overly optimistic 42% chance of finding a residency gonnif was talking about will be cut a good bit, perhaps even down to 25% or so.

There needs to be a thread stickied or subgroup created on this site for every Caribbean thread discussion and the data and horror stories that come with each and every thread. If you can get even one person to come on this site who is set to go to the Caribbean to realize the mistake they are making, do a little post-bac work/re-take the MCAT and find themselves a DO school a year or two later, it's 100% worth it.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Because we like rogueunicorn and he is presenting data that we didn't know about. It's different from the hay guys do is so holistic plus they learn omm so cool why less hard than md threads

Speak for yourself!

 

[Goro]

In other words, that bus coming!

Or to be more accurate , what will the residency picture look like in 5 years? There will be a 30% increase in MD graduates from 2002 to 2019, when 21,300 is the projected number. On the Osteopathic side, there will be close to 7,000 graduates by 2019 compared to 2,600 in 2002-2003. Combined AOA/NRMP match will have a little under 31,000 first year slots with no increase in slots in sight. That would mean about 28,000 US grads will fill spots, leaving at most 3,000 slots for off-shore, closer to 2,700. This year we has a little over 12,000 IMGs as active applicants with about 6200 matching, though I am sure a few more placed post match In 2019 there will probably a similar number of active applicants now competing for about total 3,000 spots (both match and post match). You do the math.

 

[deleted158872]

The 40%-45% estimate is for the better schools. These schools (Ross, AUC, SGU, Saba, Israeli schools & few others) have the vast majority of placements. While their matches will drop, i would speculate others lesser known will plummet.

may I ask how you calculate 40-45% match rates for "the better schools" because Israel school and Queensland-Ochsner have 88% and ~94% match rates respectively, and they don't weed any students out like the Carib schools do afaik.

Queensland: http://mededpath.org/residency_match.html
Sackler: http://www.savvypremed.com/savvy-pr...t-non-caribbean-international-medical-schools

 

[Gandyy]

At this point, there should be a dead horse beating a dead horse meme.

Because the dead horse meme has been so used so much to illustrate how this topic is a dead horse thread.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

At this point, there should be a dead horse beating a dead horse meme.

Because the dead horse meme has been so used so much to illustrate how this topic is a dead horse thread.

I think it's appropriate to perpetually beat this dead horse, especially since people continue to fall into the Caribbean pit.

 

[Gandyy]

I think it's appropriate to perpetually beat this dead horse, especially since people continue to fall into the Caribbean pit.

Then we will need more dead horse memes.

 

[gyngyn]

may I ask how you calculate 40-45% match rates for "the better schools" because Israel school and Queensland-Ochsner have 88% and ~94% match rates respectively, and they don't weed any students out like the Carib schools do afaik.

Queensland: http://mededpath.org/residency_match.html
Sackler: http://www.savvypremed.com/savvy-pr...t-non-caribbean-international-medical-schools

Because an insufficient number of grads from these programs are accepted into US residencies we have no data from which which to calculate a numerator or denominator for applicants from Australian schools.
24% of US grads of Israeli schools failed to match. See Chart 15. http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

 

[deleted158872]

The rates I noted were "start to match" percentages. That is, if you start a medical school, what were the percentages of students who earn a degree and match. Better schools is my euphemism for the Big 3/Big 4 Caribbean (SGU, Ross, AUC, & sometimes Saba). The Israeli schools and Queensland are, in my view, are associated with legitimate universities and medical school training at the level of a US school. They dont suffer the lack of student support and/or attrition rates as many other off shore schools. They do rsik though from the match competitiveness from numbers, though as numbers you noted, they do place most of their students.

Do the Israeli or Australian schools note attrition rates?

Queensland's attrition rate for American cohort: http://www.mededpath.org/5_reasons.html

 

[gyngyn]

Queensland's attrition rate for American cohort: http://www.mededpath.org/5_reasons.html

Confirmation from an objective source would be very helpful, though.
The 2015 91% match rate (if true) would put them at significant risk of probation if they were LCME accredited.

 

[QueenJames]

What about for the big 4 --> Ross, AUA, Saba, and SGU? I was recently on Ross' site (trying to make sense of the data after reading the NRMP report) and they state "More than 830 Ross University School of Medicine graduates achieved residency placements in 2015."

Here's the link: http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/2015residencyappointments.cfm

So that means they had 830 people apply this LAST year? or 830 people who recently matched in TOTAL over the past few years? Sorry for the stupid question, but I'm just trying to make more sense of this so I can better advise others who are contemplating the Caribbean route.

 

[Gandyy]

What about for the big 4 --> Ross, AUA, Saba, and SGU? I was recently on Ross' site (trying to make sense of the data after reading the NRMP report) and they state "More than 830 Ross University School of Medicine graduates achieved residency placements in 2015."

Here's the link: http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/2015residencyappointments.cfm

So that means they had 830 people apply this LAST year? or 830 people who recently matched in TOTAL over the past few years? Sorry for the stupid question, but I'm just trying to make more sense of this so I can better advise others who are contemplating the Caribbean route.

Those are still a really bad idea especially with the merger.

 

[QueenJames]

No I certainly agree with you @Gandy741

I'm just confused as to how they get their numbers. That is a lot of people who matched only from ONE school, right?

Also, I personally know a few folks who went that route and had like 3 months to prepare for their STEP 1 exams (because they have an actual review fifth semester or something?). It wasn't surprising to see MOST of them score pretty high (like above 240) on their exams. Do program directors take this into account when they look at their apps for residency? All of the students here get like barely a month or so (i believe.. please correct me if I am wrong) to prepare for it. What are your guys' thoughts on this? I certainly applaud anybody who can successfully get through the carib... but I personally feel they are working 3-4 times HARDER to get less opportunities...? or am I wrong in thinking this way?

And the merger hurts the IMGs (even the US-IMGs) but also creates more competition between the MD and DO folks here right?

 

[Gandyy]

No I certainly agree with you @Gandy741

I'm just confused as to how they get their numbers. That is a lot of people who matched only from ONE school, right?

Also, I personally know a few folks who went that route and had like 3 months to prepare for their STEP 1 exams (because they have an actual review fifth semester or something?). It wasn't surprising to see MOST of them score pretty high (like above 240) on their exams. Do program directors take this into account when they look at their apps for residency? All of the students here get like barely a month or so (i believe.. please correct me if I am wrong) to prepare for it. What are your guys' thoughts on this? I certainly applaud anybody who can successfully get through the carib... but I personally feel they are working 3-4 times HARDER to get less opportunities...? or am I wrong in thinking this way?

And the merger hurts the IMGs (even the US-IMGs) but also creates more competition between the MD and DO folks here right?

See the fact of the matter is, it almost does not even matter how well you do in Step 1 if you come from the Carribean Schools.

If you score low... well thats obviously bad.

If you score high, then PD's are going to be even more distraught at why a student who can perform so well on such a difficult exam went to a Carribean school where all it takes is a pulse and a tuition check to get in. This leaves so much room for interpretation. They are going to think these kids from Carribean schools are just naive, ill informed, impatient, and perhaps even lazy for not putting in the work to get into a US school for which they were obviously capable of because they could not delay instant gratification.

This is where many carribean med students who say "I'll just destroy Step 1" make a big mistake. Plus those match lists are after they have failed a huge portion of their classes as well. That is not good data.

 

[Ad2b]

But I also know lottery winners...

Maybe you could help an ultra-non-trad out and tell them you know this hottie down south?

 

[gyngyn]

What about for the big 4 --> Ross, AUA, Saba, and SGU? I was recently on Ross' site (trying to make sense of the data after reading the NRMP report) and they state "More than 830 Ross University School of Medicine graduates achieved residency placements in 2015."

Here's the link: http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/2015residencyappointments.cfm

So that means they had 830 people apply this LAST year? or 830 people who recently matched in TOTAL over the past few years? Sorry for the stupid question, but I'm just trying to make more sense of this so I can better advise others who are contemplating the Caribbean route.

In 2013, 532 grads from Dominica matched. http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf
It seems implausible that they matched so many more in only 2 years.
Perhaps they are defining "residency placement" differently.
You have to remember that the freshman class sizes are huge and they won't give validated information on attrition.

 

[QueenJames]

Where the heck are they getting 830 from then? LOL
that's cray cray!

 

[Stagg737]

What about for the big 4 --> Ross, AUA, Saba, and SGU? I was recently on Ross' site (trying to make sense of the data after reading the NRMP report) and they state "More than 830 Ross University School of Medicine graduates achieved residency placements in 2015."

Here's the link: http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/2015residencyappointments.cfm

So that means they had 830 people apply this LAST year? or 830 people who recently matched in TOTAL over the past few years? Sorry for the stupid question, but I'm just trying to make more sense of this so I can better advise others who are contemplating the Caribbean route.

It's likely they advertise placement and matching to be the same thing when in reality they are not. Matching means you got into a program you selected during the match. Placement means you got into a program, maybe in the match, maybe by scrambling into the leftovers. Nothing wrong with just placing, but it typically means the applicant ends up in a field or location they don't want to be in.

Also, looking at their website they say they had 812 first-time Step 1 test-takers. If their class size is commonly around 400-600 people, that tells you that there are a significant amount of people that take a year or two off to study for boards before taking them. I'd be shocked if they actually had 830 people match, but not so much if it's just placement.

 

[deleted158872]

Yearly class size of 1500???

 

[QueenJames]

They started a third class a few years ago. So they now have three stating classes a year January, May and September @ 400-600 students per class or 1200 to 1800 students a year. Their number of 830 for 2015 was residency placements (match, SOAP, non-NMRP which are off cycle openings). This number also includes previous graduates who didnt match as these are not seperated in NMRP-IMG data), SGU reports 29% non match. Using this as an estimate, about 350-375 placed via non-match or essentially got leftover spots. So about 500 or so actually matched. Also using their average yearly total class size of 1500-1600 students, about half placed into residency with only a third actually matching into a spot.

Ahhh... half got A residency spot... whereas only a 1/3 got their first choice essentially? Well damn lol

 

[QueenJames]

Wow. Not to mention the amount of more hard work you have to put in to not fail and get thru the island. Jeez.

 

[RxStudentatUB]

Is attending a Caribbean medical school or pharmacy school (any) the worse investment? One can attend a "reputable" medical school and gun for a residency with the chance to fulfill a high annual earnings potential, where earnings potential is capped for the most part in pharmacy if one gets lucky to obtain a job in the retail sector - CVS, Wags, etc. I would reluctantly choose the Caribbean option in this case; any thoughts?

 

[Gandyy]

Is attending a Caribbean medical school or pharmacy school (any) the worse investment? One can attend a "reputable" medical school and gun for a residency with the chance to fulfill a high annual earnings potential, where earnings potential is capped for the most part in pharmacy if one gets lucky to obtain a job in the retail sector - CVS, Wags, etc. I would reluctantly choose the Caribbean option in this case; any thoughts?

First of all figure out if you want to be a Pharmacist or a Physician. The two have totally different responsibilities and lifestyles.

To answer your question, Never attend a Caribbean medical school. So that leaves you one option out of the two that you are considering.

 

[deleted702880]

Fun thing about statistics: you can get them to say whatever you want if you manipulate the numbers right.

I realize that statistical tweaking is necessary to pull information from raw data but I always enjoy this article which is also known as"Voodoo Correlations."

 

[Law2Doc]

Ahhh... half got A residency spot... whereas only a 1/3 got their first choice essentially? Well damn lol

First I don't think its 50% getting a spot. They take in 1800 a year but they don't all stay on the same progression, so the class applying for the match may consist of a number from prior years who got hung up on internal hurdles, took a while to get through rotations and USMLE and the like. So however many got residencies are not necessarilly all of the same starting class. Meaning odds are likely less than 50%. Second, matching doesn't mean getting your first choice. If you interview at 20 places and get your very last choice that still goes into that statistic. Next this again ignores dead end prelims, which really means people are back in the match the following year, but pads the statistics. Finally, there's no reason to believe statistics published by SGU or other offshore entities. They aren't subject to the whole truth in advertising and consumer fraud hurdles that US schools have to face. They exaggerate and sometimes outright lie because on islands like St Kitts, etc, there's virtually no enforcement of consumer fraud, and you've got governments that have financial incentives to see these schools thrive. So above where it is noted "SGU reports a 29%" figure, I'd say odds are great that's bogus.

 

[occams_razor]

What about for the big 4 --> Ross, AUA, Saba, and SGU? I was recently on Ross' site (trying to make sense of the data after reading the NRMP report) and they state "More than 830 Ross University School of Medicine graduates achieved residency placements in 2015."

Here's the link: http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/2015residencyappointments.cfm

So that means they had 830 people apply this LAST year? or 830 people who recently matched in TOTAL over the past few years? Sorry for the stupid question, but I'm just trying to make more sense of this so I can better advise others who are contemplating the Caribbean route.

a friend of mine is set on going to Ross. stats wise she is not competitive for US MD schools, but she could definitely get into a DO school. I've tried convincing her to go DO over carib, but she is convinced an MD from Ross will help her more than going to a US DO school.. sigh.. anyway, she recently showed me a bunch of promotional packets she got from Ross in an attempt to convince me that her idea of going carib is solid.

one thing she got from Ross was a list of residency placements and she had circled all the competitive ones listed (surgery at mount sinai and neuro at duke are a few I remember seeing).

the other packet she had said that the Ross USMLE step 1 first time pass rate is 97 % and that this is higher than the first time pass rate for US MD students which was 96 %

I am truly concerned for her because she has been so misled. she has no idea what she is getting herself into

 

[QueenJames]

a friend of mine is set on going to Ross. stats wise she is not competitive for US MD schools, but she could definitely get into a DO school. I've tried convincing her to go DO over carib, but she is convinced an MD from Ross will help her more than going to a US DO school.. sigh.. anyway, she recently showed me a bunch of promotional packets she got from Ross in an attempt to convince me that her idea of going carib is solid.

one thing she got from Ross was a list of residency placements and she had circled all the competitive ones listed (surgery at mount sinai and neuro at duke are a few I remember seeing).

the other packet she had said that the Ross USMLE step 1 first time pass rate is 97 % and that this is higher than the first time pass rate for US MD students which was 96 %

I am truly concerned for her because she has been so misled. she has no idea what she is getting herself into

Well... you know what they say.. you can lead a horse to water.. but ya can't make it drink it! (something along those lines )

 

[QueenJames]

First I don't think its 50% getting a spot. They take in 1800 a year but they don't all stay on the same progression, so the class applying for the match may consist of a number from prior years who got hung up on internal hurdles, took a while to get through rotations and USMLE and the like. So however many got residencies are not necessarilly all of the same starting class. Meaning odds are likely less than 50%. Second, matching doesn't mean getting your first choice. If you interview at 20 places and get your very last choice that still goes into that statistic. Next this again ignores dead end prelims, which really means people are back in the match the following year, but pads the statistics. Finally, there's no reason to believe statistics published by SGU or other offshore entities. They aren't subject to the whole truth in advertising and consumer fraud hurdles that US schools have to face. They exaggerate and sometimes outright lie because on islands like St Kitts, etc, there's virtually no enforcement of consumer fraud, and you've got governments that have financial incentives to see these schools thrive. So above where it is noted "SGU reports a 29%" figure, I'd say odds are great that's bogus.

Ohhh that makes sense.. so essentially, they have people who maybe took 5 years (or more time) to graduate and they are applying. Doesn't that hurt their chances of matching even more? Do hospitals that show their residents include whether they are in pre-lim programs or an actual residency..? A hospital where my family is situated has a few residents and there are a few IMGs there as well.

Edit: Never mind! I figured out what is categorical vs. preliminary now! The wonders of google lol