You can't negotiate that in a job contract!

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jumponit

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Hi all,

Does anyone suggest a company or group that you've used to review your new job contract? I've heard of lawyers doing it, but I was looking for a more comprehensive company (similar to contractdiagnostics.com) that could actualy assist me through the process of negotiating with the new company.

Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated!
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your best option is to have a lawyer well versed in healthcare contracts to go over it…they can be very complicated and are always written to the advantage of the employer. The healthcare lawyer will also know how to negotiate this better than anyone.

if you are still in residency or fellowship, the hospital counsel can help with either reviewing or know good attorneys to refer you.
 
jumponit said:
Hi all,

Does anyone suggest a company or group that you've used to review your new job contract? I've heard of lawyers doing it, but I was looking for a more comprehensive company (similar to contractdiagnostics.com) that could actualy assist me through the process of negotiating with the new company.

Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated!
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Um, reviewing, negotiating and drafting a contract for a client IS the practice of law. Any organization that does this that isn't working explicitly under a lawyer on all if these tasks is committing a crime in every state (unauthorized practice of law) so I'm not sure what you think the distinction in your post is between hiring a "comprehensive company" versus hiring a lawyer. Just hire a lawyer. In this glut market you will get a much better deal and more personalized attention.
 
gutonc said:
Or is shilling for that company he linked to.
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Crap. I know nothing about that company. So, now I either have to click on it to find out what it is, and possibly contribute to a shill's agenda, or remain ignorant. Anybody want to help me out?
 
FWIW, White Coat Investor is legit. I know the author is an occasional poster and contributor to SDN, so no one should need fear visiting his website. To the contrary, I would encourage it.
 
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In addition to an experienced lawyer, if you are looking at a partnership, you will also need an accountant. It's crucial to fully examine the books of any partnership you are considering. Many attorneys are also CPAs and are particularly good at this. As for the attorney, make sure he or she is experienced in professional partnerships, hopefully with medical practices. This is not something to leave to your cousin who just graduated law school. You can easily make a mistake that could cost you tens of thousands of dollars by having inadequate representation.

Ed
 
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edmadison said:
In addition to an experienced lawyer, if you are looking at a partnership, you will also need an accountant. It's crucial to fully examine the books of any partnership you are considering. Many attorneys are also CPAs and are particularly good at this. As for the attorney, make sure he or she is experienced in professional partnerships, hopefully with medical practices. This is not something to leave to your cousin who just graduated law school. You can easily make a mistake that could cost you tens of thousands of dollars by having inadequate representation.

Ed
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First, very few lawyers are CPAs. Those few that are aren't going to waste time dealing with fledgling doctors contracts. There are often conflicts of interest between lawyers and accountants and sometimes you are actually better off if they aren't the same person. However every lawyer who deals with partnerships works with many accountants and can certainly refer you to several to choose from. Second, reviewing contracts isn't rocket science but it's very labor intensive. You ideally want someone with some experience but more importantly you want someone who is going to pore over every word. The guy experienced with professional contracts might not spend the same time as your cousin who just graduated law school, or worse, he might farm it out to his junior associate to go through, and this junior associate might have been lower on the curve than your cousin at the same law school. That's the danger of seeking experience when you aren't at the point in your career where you are a big client yet. Experienced Lawyers spend their time on the big money clients/cases, and staff the small dollar matters with junior associates and paralegals. The bill will be higher but the experience devoted to your agreement will be about the same. In a glut market there are plenty of guys out there with enough experience to read and negotiate a contract. Big firms will not make your contract a priority. Companies like the one linked seem shady to me -- it's a personal skillset you are seeking, not an organization, so you always want to hire a specific lawyer, not an entity -- lawyers aren't any more fungible than doctors.
 
Law2Doc said:
-- lawyers aren't any more fungible than doctors.
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word of the day! (i had to look it up…)

fun·gi·ble
ˈfənjəbəl/
adjective
LAW
  1. 1.
    (of goods contracted for without an individual specimen being specified) able to replace or be replaced by another identical item; mutually interchangeable.
    "money is fungible—money that is raised for one purpose can easily be used for another"
 
You probably don't want to spend much time or money negotiating your pre-partnership contract. You can't afford to litigate anything that goes awry anyway. If its not how you hoped, you are just going to walk. The things you care about are the (short) path to partnership, how many associates have not become partners (can be hard to find out but ask the hospitalists or others who have worked with the group), buy-in and noncompete clauses. Investigate whether noncompetes are enforceable in your state before you bother arguing about it. Beyond that, this is a very short term contract. Your partnership contract, OTOH, is important. By then, they shouldn't mind you seeing the books in detail and getting some help examining them. My approach was to ask the senior partner if I could see the books and then work discretely with the office manager to get what I wanted (and had a CPA look over).

I'm generally skeptical of any service that markets itself specifically to doctors. They tend to be more expensive for, at best, the same service as what a plumber joining a plumbing business would need.
 
Get a lawyer. They do it all. Make sure it is a lawyer than does health care contracts. Mine was great. Most of our residents use the same lawyer. He had dealt with the place I signed with before so he up front what they probably would not budge on (but he still tried).
 
All the legal jargon was clarified and corrected and some specifics he said needed to be in there. Others got sign on bonuses when not offered. He got them to throw out the no moonlighting clause and extra cme days and money. Some clauses were worded wrong which he made them change.
 
Gastrapathy said:
What did that accomplish for you?
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This isn't a good question in a vacuum. There is no such thing as a "standard contract" and you should be leery of anyone who uses that phrase. Like snowflakes, every contract is a little different. As a lawyer, I've never seen a contract that couldn't be tweaked to be a bit more favorable/reasonable. There are always terms that you ought to focus on that might not even apply right away but could cause headaches for you when it's time to leave, etc. A lawyer will key you in on these. You need someone to pore over every word with the attitude "how am I getting screwed over here". It's very hard to do that yourself but lawyers are trained to think like that. There's a reason people who do deals use them religiously.
 
Of course a lawyer will find something "important" to tweak. You've paid for him to do so. The key detail is that associate contracts aren't important and the more they have to sell you on joining, the less the partnership sells itself.

It's not in a vacuum either. Small groups can be turned off by an aggressive negotiating posture. I know a group that anyone would be lucky to join that decided to move on to another candidate rather than negotiate. The guy tried to backtrack and sign the original contract and they passed. You forget how much doctors hate lawyers.

As I said before,

Short track to partnership
Good track record for associates becoming partners
No noncompete

If you are taking a long term employed position, negotiate away. Otherwise be careful.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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rokshana said:
your best option is to have a lawyer well versed in healthcare contracts to go over it…they can be very complicated and are always written to the advantage of the employer. The healthcare lawyer will also know how to negotiate this better than anyone.

if you are still in residency or fellowship, the hospital counsel can help with either reviewing or know good attorneys to refer you.
Click to expand...

I know this is an old question, but I would like to reply and try to help others who may be browsing on this topic. DO NOT USE CONTRACT DIAGNOSTICS or any agency like it. The person you deal with (Jon Apino) is NOT a lawyer. Though he seems like he knows what he's doing at first, you'll quickly learn he's far inferior to using a lawyer. I used him for my first contract out of residency a while ago, and it became a long, drawn out process. In addition, my future employer at the time had told me I should avoid using Contract Diagnostics in the future, as it was a "circus" for him and his lawyer. I couldn't find any reviews on Contract Diagnostics before I committed to the $1700 price, so I just hoped for the best. It was a huge disappointment and waste of my money, which his secretary harassed me for months before my payment due date! For my second job, I used a real lawyer, and it was flawless - quick, efficient, and $1200 cheaper! I wish someone had warned me that agencies such as Contract Diagnostics are basically moneymakers run by businessmen, not people well-versed in physician contract negotiations. I am not picky or difficult to work with in any way, so please take my word for it. Save your money and use a lawyer!
 
Scrubs0910 said:
I know this is an old question, but I would like to reply and try to help others who may be browsing on this topic. DO NOT USE CONTRACT DIAGNOSTICS or any agency like it. The person you deal with (Jon Apino) is NOT a lawyer. Though he seems like he knows what he's doing at first, you'll quickly learn he's far inferior to using a lawyer. I used him for my first contract out of residency a while ago, and it became a long, drawn out process. In addition, my future employer at the time had told me I should avoid using Contract Diagnostics in the future, as it was a "circus" for him and his lawyer. I couldn't find any reviews on Contract Diagnostics before I committed to the $1700 price, so I just hoped for the best. It was a huge disappointment and waste of my money, which his secretary harassed me for months before my payment due date! For my second job, I used a real lawyer, and it was flawless - quick, efficient, and $1200 cheaper! I wish someone had warned me that agencies such as Contract Diagnostics are basically moneymakers run by businessmen, not people well-versed in physician contract negotiations. I am not picky or difficult to work with in any way, so please take my word for it. Save your money and use a lawyer!
Click to expand...

Contract lawyers are worth the time and effort. Language in a contract is very important, things like solely responsible vs. mutually responsible when it comes to costs, care, or verification can make a huge difference down the line. Spend the $500-1000 up front that most contract lawyers will make you pay (most are paid by the hour, and most contracts take 2-3 hours) to avoid headaches for the rest of your career.
 
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chocomorsel said:
What is considered a short track to partnership? For example in Anesthesia? Is three yrs too long?
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With so many gas groups selling out, a three yr path to partner would worry me even if it was the norm
 
Scrubs0910 said:
I know this is an old question, but I would like to reply and try to help others who may be browsing on this topic. DO NOT USE CONTRACT DIAGNOSTICS or any agency like it. The person you deal with (Jon Apino) is NOT a lawyer. Though he seems like he knows what he's doing at first, you'll quickly learn he's far inferior to using a lawyer. I used him for my first contract out of residency a while ago, and it became a long, drawn out process. In addition, my future employer at the time had told me I should avoid using Contract Diagnostics in the future, as it was a "circus" for him and his lawyer. I couldn't find any reviews on Contract Diagnostics before I committed to the $1700 price, so I just hoped for the best. It was a huge disappointment and waste of my money, which his secretary harassed me for months before my payment due date! For my second job, I used a real lawyer, and it was flawless - quick, efficient, and $1200 cheaper! I wish someone had warned me that agencies such as Contract Diagnostics are basically moneymakers run by businessmen, not people well-versed in physician contract negotiations. I am not picky or difficult to work with in any way, so please take my word for it. Save your money and use a lawyer!
Click to expand...

As mentioned, If the principals of this company are not lawyers and they are reviewing and negotiating employment contracts they are likely committing a crime ("unauthorized practice of law"). Report him to the local bar, (or ask your lawyer to do it for you) and ask them what they recommend you do to get your money back. If he's actually negotiating employment contracts for clients without a license you might be able to get or sue for it back. Just saying.
 
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Are residents even allowed to negotiate their contracts?
 
gutonc said:
No. But nobody's talking about resident contracts here.
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I guess I just assumed that because it was in the "General Residency Issues" forum
1.0
 
Noomm said:
I guess I just assumed that because it was in the "General Residency Issues" forum
1.0
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well...you know what happens when you assUme...

no resident contracts are not negotiable, but final year residents (and even not so final year ones as well) are out there looking for a job...they will need to negotiate for their contracts...
 
Noomm said:
I guess I just assumed that because it was in the "General Residency Issues" forum
1.0
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As mentioned last year residents will be negotiating the contracts of their post residency job, so it is a topic of interest to residents. You won't be a resident forever although it may feel that way at times. That being said in some specialties, cities and with some employers you won't have all that much flexibility to negotiate so you may be overpaying for some of these services in the current market. Also part of the skillset is to know how to not blow up a deal, which some company like this might not be as skilled at -- you still have to work with the employer afterwards. Finally, as mentioned, the practice of law, like the practice of medicine is licensed by states. If someone is practicing law without a license ( ie reviewing and negotiating employment contracts), that's actually a crime and you want no part of that. Even if there is one lawyer somehow incorporated into this venture who rubber stamps things, you'll still not get benefit of the in depth knowledge of contract law a lawyer brings to the table. And right now with a glut in the law market, lawyers are cheaper than they ever have been, so it's foolish not to find an actual licensed one. You'll get more personalized service and the benefit of actual legal training.
 
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