You know this place is dead when Walgreens does more lay offs and no thread is created

[Hels2007]

That was sarcasm. Personal accountability as in people being willing and able to take full responsibility for their actions and choices has been increasingly rare and hard to find... Heck, some people can't even make decisions, let alone stand by them...

---

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[Hedgehog32]

Unpopular opinion, but I actually enjoy your posts not because you're struggling but because it stirs up dialogue from other contributors that would not have been brought up otherwise, and those insights are valuable to me even as someone who is currently not looking for a job. I for one will also be borrowing @PharFromNormal 's graphic to send to friends.

I think it's also important for me to point out that I'm not just arbitrarily bashing pharmacy over here and complaining about the lack of jobs; rather, I'm speaking from a perspective that has been influenced not only by what I've been told by former pharmacy managers and preceptors, but also by conversations I've had in recent weeks with a few team leads/managers who work at local tech companies and are in charge of hiring personnel.

For example, within the last few days I was put in touch with a team lead at a local tech company who I wanted to talk to specifically regarding the job market and my prospect of finding a job here after finishing a CS bootcamp or degree. He told me about positions they hire for called "co-ops" (basically like interns) and said that working for them in the co-op program is a really good way to secure a FT software engineering position post-graduation.

At some point, I asked him if there were any particular teams or shifts for which they had an especially dire personnel need, and he mentioned that they have a hard time finding engineers who are willing to work on the "devops" team, which is a CS specialty area I'd never heard of prior to our conversation. Basically, he said that almost no software engineers want devops jobs because they're not held in the same regard as the "sexier" engineering positions that involve expressing more of a creative bent. I recall that he said a lot of engineers joke that devops engineers are basically over-glorified sysadmins (short for systems administrators).

I spoke to the severe job market saturation issue in pharmacy and told him I'd really like to do what I can to establish myself as an attractive SWE candidate. He said that even though the SWE job market (at least locally) wasn't anywhere near getting competitive to the extent of their company instituting HR policies barring the hiring of new grads (a la hospital pharmacy), he said that if I REALLY wanted to give myself job security, I should take a job upon graduation as a devops engineer, teach myself to become fluent with tools & technologies such as Kubernetes, Terraform, Docker, Spinnaker (he mentioned a few others), and then advance into a role called site reliability engineer (SRE). This was also the first time I'd ever heard of the SRE job title but he basically said that I'd be set for life if I was willing to put up with the "less riveting" nature of the work and wouldn't mind the on-call and night shift requirements.

So to clarify, apparently they hire new grads into devops positions but not SRE roles, although a new grad who has worked as a devops engineer for about a year can naturally move into an SRE role. After he discussed those two positions, I asked him if CS students ever expressed interest in co-op/intern positions on the devops team, and he said that the weird schedule (lots of night shift work) made it difficult for students at the local university's CS program to juggle the time commitments with their schedule, since the university's CS program requires on-campus attendance. I told him that I'd be attending an online program and said that I'd be interested in working as a night shift devops intern, if they'd be interested in hiring one.

At that point, he reacted as if I'd offered to drain all my family members' bank accounts and send him all their money ("yeah, definitely"; "you've got my number, get in touch with me again after you've started your program," etc.).

Obviously, it's not a guaranteed offer of employment, but what does it say about the state of pharmacy that a single conversation with a tech company manager I'd never met before seemed to hold more promise for my future employment prospects than any conversation I'd ever held with any of the pharmacists at the hospital network I used to work as an intern at? (Not to mention the job offer from a rotation site preceptor that had to be retracted because of HR policies outright barring the hiring of new graduates -- how embarrassing.)

Anyways, I know... tl;dr, blah blah blah, but who cares? Like PharFromNormal has said, I have "checked out" on pharmacy by now, so at this point I'm just passively expressing my fascination over the disparity between job market conditions in CS and pharmacy.

Also, the tech manager I talked to didn't care at all that I was changing professions immediately after graduating from pharmacy school. I guess I should just consider myself lucky that I'm not trying to get a job with PharFromNormal and his crack team of chain retail superstars.

BTW, @PharmtoCS @DH1987 @lord999 and anyone else who either works in CS or has a CS background - does any of the info passed along to me by the tech manager regarding devops/SRE jobs sound familiar? Would you generally agree with what he had to say?

 

[Hedgehog32]

C'mon, we haven't even started being 'though'. 'Tis the internetz! He sounds just like people on "My 600 pound life" and you should see the snarking that goes on Primetimer for that show!

Except whereas the behemoths on that show are more likely to admit defeat with their current exercise/diet regimen and simply give up, what I'm doing is more like the equivalent of abandoning the current regimen and switching to one that is supported by a plethora of scientific evidence (clinical trials, etc.) as having a much greater likelihood of leading to substantial weight loss, and for probably less effort and sacrifice as well.

BTW, you asked me a few posts up how I was planning on making myself more competitive than the other new CS graduates. The answer (at least according to an engineering team manager at a local tech company) is apparently as simple as offering to take on a position that involves working an undesirable schedule and less creative-focused work.

Contrast that with being a new pharmacy RESIDENCY program graduate; offering to work weekends, nights, etc. is not only no longer a way to stand out against the competition, but most residency graduates would consider themselves LUCKY even to get that.

In light of the job markets in both fields, being a competitive candidate is basically a case of having the willingness to make one or two concessions (CS) vs. either knowing someone very well, applying to 200+ positions, concocting some industry-revolutionizing spiel on how your "value proposition" to the employer catapults you ahead of the hundreds of other applicants, or by simply getting lucky (pharmacy).

... On a related note, how sad is it that I don't even feel slightly ashamed about the fact that I'm abandoning pharmacy with so little regard for the time, effort, or money I put into it? At this point, I honestly don't even think I'd accept an inpatient hospital pharmacist job offer even if one was presented to me. The prospect of actually being able to make myself a more competitive candidate in the tech industry by making a few basic concessions (as compared to those same concessions simply constituting entry-level hiring criteria for pharmacy positions) is simply too attractive of a proposition to not pursue. I can now say that I wholeheartedly regret my decision to go to pharmacy school.

 

[Marzapan]

I think it's also important for me to point out that I'm not just arbitrarily bashing pharmacy over here and complaining about the lack of jobs; rather, I'm speaking from a perspective that has been influenced not only by what I've been told by former pharmacy managers and preceptors, but also by conversations I've had in recent weeks with a few team leads/managers who work at local tech companies and are in charge of hiring personnel.

For example, within the last few days I was put in touch with a team lead at a local tech company who I wanted to talk to specifically regarding the job market and my prospect of finding a job here after finishing a CS bootcamp or degree. He told me about positions they hire for called "co-ops" (basically like interns) and said that working for them in the co-op program is a really good way to secure a FT software engineering position post-graduation.

At some point, I asked him if there were any particular teams or shifts for which they had an especially dire personnel need, and he mentioned that they have a hard time finding engineers who are willing to work on the "devops" team, which is a CS specialty area I'd never heard of prior to our conversation. Basically, he said that almost no software engineers want devops jobs because they're not held in the same regard as the "sexier" engineering positions that involve expressing more of a creative bent. I recall that he said a lot of engineers joke that devops engineers are basically over-glorified sysadmins (short for systems administrators).

I spoke to the severe job market saturation issue in pharmacy and told him I'd really like to do what I can to establish myself as an attractive SWE candidate. He said that even though the SWE job market (at least locally) wasn't anywhere near getting competitive to the extent of their company instituting HR policies barring the hiring of new grads (a la hospital pharmacy), he said that if I REALLY wanted to give myself job security, I should take a job upon graduation as a devops engineer, teach myself to become fluent with tools & technologies such as Kubernetes, Terraform, Docker, Spinnaker (he mentioned a few others), and then advance into a role called site reliability engineer (SRE). This was also the first time I'd ever heard of the SRE job title but he basically said that I'd be set for life if I was willing to put up with the "less riveting" nature of the work and wouldn't mind the on-call and night shift requirements.

So to clarify, apparently they hire new grads into devops positions but not SRE roles, although a new grad who has worked as a devops engineer for about a year can naturally move into an SRE role. After he discussed those two positions, I asked him if CS students ever expressed interest in co-op/intern positions on the devops team, and he said that the weird schedule (lots of night shift work) made it difficult for students at the local university's CS program to juggle the time commitments with their schedule, since the university's CS program requires on-campus attendance. I told him that I'd be attending an online program and said that I'd be interested in working as a night shift devops intern, if they'd be interested in hiring one.

At that point, he reacted as if I'd offered to drain all my family members' bank accounts and send him all their money ("yeah, definitely"; "you've got my number, get in touch with me again after you've started your program," etc.).

Obviously, it's not a guaranteed offer of employment, but what does it say about the state of pharmacy that a single conversation with a tech company manager I'd never met before seemed to hold more promise for my future employment prospects than any conversation I'd ever held with any of the pharmacists at the hospital network I used to work as an intern at? (Not to mention the job offer from a rotation site preceptor that had to be retracted because of HR policies outright barring the hiring of new graduates -- how embarrassing.)

Anyways, I know... tl;dr, blah blah blah, but who cares? Like PharFromNormal has said, I have "checked out" on pharmacy by now, so at this point I'm just passively expressing my fascination over the disparity between job market conditions in CS and pharmacy.

Also, the tech manager I talked to didn't care at all that I was changing professions immediately after graduating from pharmacy school. I guess I should just consider myself lucky that I'm not trying to get a job with PharFromNormal and his crack team of chain retail superstars.

BTW, @PharmtoCS @DH1987 @lord999 and anyone else who either works in CS or has a CS background - does any of the info passed along to me by the tech manager regarding devops/SRE jobs sound familiar? Would you generally agree with what he had to say?

How do you even get in touch with these recruiters?

 

[Hedgehog32]

How do you even get in touch with these recruiters?

This wasn't through a recruiter. One of my cousins works for Cisco as a database administrator and is friends with people in the local tech community (which is essentially comprised of a single bona fide "tech" company and a few other companies that hire for CS positions but aren't actually tech companies). He was able to put me in touch with someone from one of the companies, as well as a friend of one of my parent's who has worked for a while for the one local tech company in an IT (not really a CS/engineering) position.

It's sad to think about all the time and money I wasted on pharmacy school when he pursued some sort of Linux-based certification on his own time, taught himself most of what he knows, and got his job a couple years ago after a recruiter on LinkedIn reached out to him after coming across his profile.

My cousin said I probably wouldn't have a problem getting a co-op job with Cisco if I'm willing to do grunt work, although it would be a little more complicated of an endeavor since he said I'd probably have to move to NC for the job.

My city probably has one of the most stunted job markets of any medium-sized city in the US (mostly blue collar jobs), so most people are at least acquainted with someone who works in CS/IT since that's the only well-paying industry that has a local job market besides healthcare.

The CS job market is surprisingly not all that competitive here, largely because most graduates of the local university's CS program try to find jobs in Atlanta, which is the nearest large metro. I understand that Verizon hired a sizable of graduates from their May 2020 cohort (also, I was told that Verizon has hired a few more CS transplants from my area even during the pandemic).

 

[lord999]

I think it's also important for me to point out that I'm not just arbitrarily bashing pharmacy over here and complaining about the lack of jobs; rather, I'm speaking from a perspective that has been influenced not only by what I've been told by former pharmacy managers and preceptors, but also by conversations I've had in recent weeks with a few team leads/managers who work at local tech companies and are in charge of hiring personnel.

For example, within the last few days I was put in touch with a team lead at a local tech company who I wanted to talk to specifically regarding the job market and my prospect of finding a job here after finishing a CS bootcamp or degree. He told me about positions they hire for called "co-ops" (basically like interns) and said that working for them in the co-op program is a really good way to secure a FT software engineering position post-graduation.

At some point, I asked him if there were any particular teams or shifts for which they had an especially dire personnel need, and he mentioned that they have a hard time finding engineers who are willing to work on the "devops" team, which is a CS specialty area I'd never heard of prior to our conversation. Basically, he said that almost no software engineers want devops jobs because they're not held in the same regard as the "sexier" engineering positions that involve expressing more of a creative bent. I recall that he said a lot of engineers joke that devops engineers are basically over-glorified sysadmins (short for systems administrators).

I spoke to the severe job market saturation issue in pharmacy and told him I'd really like to do what I can to establish myself as an attractive SWE candidate. He said that even though the SWE job market (at least locally) wasn't anywhere near getting competitive to the extent of their company instituting HR policies barring the hiring of new grads (a la hospital pharmacy), he said that if I REALLY wanted to give myself job security, I should take a job upon graduation as a devops engineer, teach myself to become fluent with tools & technologies such as Kubernetes, Terraform, Docker, Spinnaker (he mentioned a few others), and then advance into a role called site reliability engineer (SRE). This was also the first time I'd ever heard of the SRE job title but he basically said that I'd be set for life if I was willing to put up with the "less riveting" nature of the work and wouldn't mind the on-call and night shift requirements.

So to clarify, apparently they hire new grads into devops positions but not SRE roles, although a new grad who has worked as a devops engineer for about a year can naturally move into an SRE role. After he discussed those two positions, I asked him if CS students ever expressed interest in co-op/intern positions on the devops team, and he said that the weird schedule (lots of night shift work) made it difficult for students at the local university's CS program to juggle the time commitments with their schedule, since the university's CS program requires on-campus attendance. I told him that I'd be attending an online program and said that I'd be interested in working as a night shift devops intern, if they'd be interested in hiring one.

At that point, he reacted as if I'd offered to drain all my family members' bank accounts and send him all their money ("yeah, definitely"; "you've got my number, get in touch with me again after you've started your program," etc.).

Obviously, it's not a guaranteed offer of employment, but what does it say about the state of pharmacy that a single conversation with a tech company manager I'd never met before seemed to hold more promise for my future employment prospects than any conversation I'd ever held with any of the pharmacists at the hospital network I used to work as an intern at? (Not to mention the job offer from a rotation site preceptor that had to be retracted because of HR policies outright barring the hiring of new graduates -- how embarrassing.)

Anyways, I know... tl;dr, blah blah blah, but who cares? Like PharFromNormal has said, I have "checked out" on pharmacy by now, so at this point I'm just passively expressing my fascination over the disparity between job market conditions in CS and pharmacy.

Also, the tech manager I talked to didn't care at all that I was changing professions immediately after graduating from pharmacy school. I guess I should just consider myself lucky that I'm not trying to get a job with PharFromNormal and his crack team of chain retail superstars.

BTW, @PharmtoCS @DH1987 @lord999 and anyone else who either works in CS or has a CS background - does any of the info passed along to me by the tech manager regarding devops/SRE jobs sound familiar? Would you generally agree with what he had to say?

Yes, and no. There's always some dumb techs doing basic LAMP stack work that's really trivial and boring. You won't learn very much at that job as an SA ("DevOps Engineer" is the sexed up version of SA) unless you learn to maintain decent equipment. It's a job that really can't be outsourced, but it's boring as hell.

But talk is cheap. I use the Stephen King definition of talent:

“If you [did] something for which someone sent you a check, if you cashed the check and it didn't bounce, and if you then paid the light bill with the money, I consider you talented.”

You're not talented at all yet. My guess is that with some basic training, you're probably about $50k talented without job security and crap options. I can train a high school graduate to be a patch monkey to get paid more than teachers (and I leave that task to the DoD enlisted hires as its about four levels beneath my priorities). Code bootcamp warriors are $80-120k talented with a 4 year expiration date give or take six. C++ and Java programmers with solid portfolios are $90-140k on average with an expiration date of 40 years old give or take 10 (they will be disenfranchised when they are 50 to 55 though and must go freelance). Programmers who can't easily switch languages or paradigms have a 10 or so year expiration date. The only language I retained from training was FORTRAN, and that's only for supercomputing concerns. Everything else had to be learned in the last decade. And what I know now, it's going to be practically useless in about a decade besides C and R.

Anyway:

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

isn't looking too good as freelancers are the first to go in an economic downturn.

It should say something though that one of the only pharmacists on this board who actually works that side of affairs (and doesn't just talk about it) and knows most of them through ASAP or AHIP keeps warning everyone that IT and analytics jobs are hard work too. It's really funny because all my AHIP colleagues talk about how pharmacy is a $200k-300k job because their experience is Kaiser and industry MSA/PSR's who do make that kind of money, but certainly is not the Burger Fool who works the CVS and Walgreens jobs which is the standard stereotype we all know and love. When you get fintech guys together, they gush about how easy money pharmacy and medicine is as all they meet are the beautiful and successful sales reps, industry middle management, and management consulting who are the top 10% of us. It's jarring to hear that as it is to see what people write about IT here.

So don't worry yourself about pharmacy at this point. Leave and go forth and make the tech money while you can. I assure you that you will not find the going any easier if you want to even progress to an equal level to pharmacy in terms of salary and work conditions. You will work your way up as it comes.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Yes, and no. There's always some dumb techs doing basic LAMP stack work that's really trivial and boring. You won't learn very much at that job as an SA ("DevOps Engineer" is the sexed up version of SA) unless you learn to maintain decent equipment. It's a job that really can't be outsourced, but it's boring as hell.

But talk is cheap. I use the Stephen King definition of talent:

“If you [did] something for which someone sent you a check, if you cashed the check and it didn't bounce, and if you then paid the light bill with the money, I consider you talented.”

You're not talented at all yet. My guess is that with some basic training, you're probably about $50k talented without job security and crap options. I can train a high school graduate to be a patch monkey to get paid more than teachers (and I leave that task to the DoD enlisted hires as its about four levels beneath my priorities). Code bootcamp warriors are $80-120k talented with a 4 year expiration date give or take six. C++ and Java programmers with solid portfolios are $90-140k on average with an expiration date of 40 years old give or take 10 (they will be disenfranchised when they are 50 to 55 though and must go freelance). Programmers who can't easily switch languages or paradigms have a 10 or so year expiration date. The only language I retained from training was FORTRAN, and that's only for supercomputing concerns. Everything else had to be learned in the last decade. And what I know now, it's going to be practically useless in about a decade besides C and R.

Anyway:

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

isn't looking too good as freelancers are the first to go in an economic downturn.

It should say something though that one of the only pharmacists on this board who actually works that side of affairs (and doesn't just talk about it) and knows most of them through ASAP or AHIP keeps warning everyone that IT and analytics jobs are hard work too. It's really funny because all my AHIP colleagues talk about how pharmacy is a $200k-300k job because their experience is Kaiser and industry MSA/PSR's who do make that kind of money, but certainly is not the Burger Fool who works the CVS and Walgreens jobs which is the standard stereotype we all know and love. When you get fintech guys together, they gush about how easy money pharmacy and medicine is as all they meet are the beautiful and successful sales reps, industry middle management, and management consulting who are the top 10% of us. It's jarring to hear that as it is to see what people write about IT here.

So don't worry yourself about pharmacy at this point. Leave and go forth and make the tech money while you can. I assure you that you will not find the going any easier if you want to even progress to an equal level to pharmacy in terms of salary and work conditions. You will work your way up as it comes.

@lord999 Appreciate the input. Just curious... you said that bootcamp graduates have around a 4 year expiration date. Is this because most of them just aren't that good, or is it because of a hiring bias against bootcamp grads that exists in the tech industry?

If it's the latter, can a bootcamp graduate overcome it (by having a solid portfolio and getting solid work experience) to have a full 30-40 yr career in tech?

The reason I ask is because at this point, the next biggest decision I have to make is whether to attend a bootcamp program or an MS program. So far, I have been accepted to an MS program with a curriculum designed for students who don't have CS/IT backgrounds (it's basically a CS bachelor's degree packaged as an MS), and I was also planning on applying to Hack Reactor, which I've been told is regarded by tech companies as one of the top bootcamp programs. If there truly is substantial hiring discrimination against bootcamp grads, I'll do the MS program... but if I can get an entry-level job as a new bootcamp grad if I'm willing to be flexible on location and other factors, I'd hate to spend an extra 20 months doing the formal degree program if the delay in starting my career wouldn't be absolutely necessary.

 

[DH1987]

BTW, @PharmtoCS @DH1987 @lord999 and anyone else who either works in CS or has a CS background - does any of the info passed along to me by the tech manager regarding devops/SRE jobs sound familiar? Would you generally agree with what he had to say?

I don't work in CS yet. I'm studying programming on my off-time and I'm slacking pretty badly.

I have created my first program though - created a simple math game.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I don't work in CS yet. I'm studying programming on my off-time and I'm slacking pretty badly.

I have created my first program though - created a simple math game.

So are you planning on leaving pharmacy altogether once you've become proficient in CS? If so, have you gotten in touch with companies that have confirmed that they'd hire you as a self-taught engineer?

 

[DH1987]

So are you planning on leaving pharmacy altogether once you've become proficient in CS? If so, have you gotten in touch with companies that have confirmed that they'd hire you as a self-taught engineer?

Ideally, I would like to leave pharmacy altogether. I have not gotten in touch with companies that would hire me as a self-taught software engineer but that is not a bad idea.

 

[baronzb]

The student mod will just move it to the hidden forum. The truth about this profession is not allowed over there. That's why this forum is dead.

But just for fun, I made a thread about it there. I'll be surprised if it lasts more than a couple hours.

why the censorship? This used to have good info for the vulnerable youth? The job market thread dissapearing (I think it was closing on hundreds of thousands of posts, was epic.) was dispiriting. When I asked the mod why it was gone, he thought it cluttered or was redundant. Very counter productive for advocacy.

 

[lord999]

@lord999 Appreciate the input. Just curious... you said that bootcamp graduates have around a 4 year expiration date. Is this because most of them just aren't that good, or is it because of a hiring bias against bootcamp grads that exists in the tech industry?

If it's the latter, can a bootcamp graduate overcome it (by having a solid portfolio and getting solid work experience) to have a full 30-40 yr career in tech?

The reason I ask is because at this point, the next biggest decision I have to make is whether to attend a bootcamp program or an MS program. So far, I have been accepted to an MS program with a curriculum designed for students who don't have CS/IT backgrounds (it's basically a CS bachelor's degree packaged as an MS), and I was also planning on applying to Hack Reactor, which I've been told is regarded by tech companies as one of the top bootcamp programs. If there truly is substantial hiring discrimination against bootcamp grads, I'll do the MS program... but if I can get an entry-level job as a new bootcamp grad if I'm willing to be flexible on location and other factors, I'd hate to spend an extra 20 months doing the formal degree program if the delay in starting my career wouldn't be absolutely necessary.

Tech Companies Settle Age Bias Suits

Recent settlements of age discrimination suits filed against major tech companies highlight a growing effort in the last few years to combat age…

www.lexology.com

Most bootcamp grads are cookbook programmers who cannot switch paradigms. It's like going to diet camp and losing weight, you don't keep it lost as you can't do this in a normal environment.

No normal person but management has a 40 year career in tech. 50's about the limit for stable employment in tech. You HAVE to promote the ranks, you should look up what happened to electrical engineers with telecom when they hit a certain age. I saw that when I went to school and saw the original C/C++ and Java guys get eliminated and were classmates of mine. Google doesn't hire over >40 right now unless you're in management (the offer I was given was age discriminatory as I know there are better people out there, but Google won't hire above that range and are willing to give someone sub-40 more to overwork them harder as a Lead Principal). I certainly cannot work at a new engineer level anymore simply because I'm out of training for over a decade even though I have deep academic ties.

Nothing you've said so far makes me think you're an exception, in fact, quite the opposite. You could get a pharmacist job for far less effort than staying in the tech industry as you couldn't even make residency which is a low, low bar. Your grades and social networks are below average for a pharmacist even given the lower standards of conduct in this era. And the ceiling for pharmacy is much lower than tech. A good pharmacist can only go so far, but a high ceiling career like tech, law, or finance consulting can go for the stars, but has many more casualties on the way.

At your current productivity levels and without a license, you're in the bottom tier for our profession which you might change in tech, but not with your current habits or attitudes. No school is going to teach you on how to have good judgment or be a productive person. You are where you should be. You want to be successful, then be successful.

 

[mentos]

why the censorship? This used to have good info for the vulnerable youth? The job market thread dissapearing (I think it was closing on hundreds of thousands of posts, was epic.) was dispiriting. When I asked the mod why it was gone, he thought it cluttered or was redundant. Very counter productive for advocacy.

I see this same behavior from mods on my local neighborhood Facebook group. Give someone a little bit of power, and it goes to their head. The group becomes highly censored because one person only wants to allow certain types of posts to be seen. If the mod doesn't agree with you, then he hides it, deletes it, or bans the poster with the attitude of "if you don't like it then there are other groups your can join". It's sad, really. Seeing threads here moved, censored and longtime members banned is now normal and predictable.

The thread I made was hidden after a couple hours as predicted.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Tech Companies Settle Age Bias Suits

Recent settlements of age discrimination suits filed against major tech companies highlight a growing effort in the last few years to combat age…

www.lexology.com

Most bootcamp grads are cookbook programmers who cannot switch paradigms. It's like going to diet camp and losing weight, you don't keep it lost as you can't do this in a normal environment.

No normal person but management has a 40 year career in tech. 50's about the limit for stable employment in tech. You HAVE to promote the ranks, you should look up what happened to electrical engineers with telecom when they hit a certain age. I saw that when I went to school and saw the original C/C++ and Java guys get eliminated and were classmates of mine. Google doesn't hire over >40 right now unless you're in management (the offer I was given was age discriminatory as I know there are better people out there, but Google won't hire above that range and are willing to give someone sub-40 more to overwork them harder as a Lead Principal). I certainly cannot work at a new engineer level anymore simply because I'm out of training for over a decade even though I have deep academic ties.

Nothing you've said so far makes me think you're an exception, in fact, quite the opposite. You could get a pharmacist job for far less effort than staying in the tech industry as you couldn't even make residency which is a low, low bar. Your grades and social networks are below average for a pharmacist even given the lower standards of conduct in this era. And the ceiling for pharmacy is much lower than tech. A good pharmacist can only go so far, but a high ceiling career like tech, law, or finance consulting can go for the stars, but has many more casualties on the way.

At your current productivity levels and without a license, you're in the bottom tier for our profession which you might change in tech, but not with your current habits or attitudes. No school is going to teach you on how to have good judgment or be a productive person. You are where you should be. You want to be successful, then be successful.

You said my grades and social network in pharmacy school were below average; however, I had well over a 3.8 GPA and have the pharmacy supervisors I worked with back when I had my intern job as references, which is more than many of my former classmates can say, considering that over half of them didn't even work throughout pharmacy school. So if that's considered below average, then what would constitute an above average pharmacy school graduate?

And yes, obviously not having a license places me in the bottom tier among pharmacists. On that note, what tier would you place the pharmacists in who can't find jobs (or can only find retail jobs)?

For example, all but one or two of the 12 local residency program graduates I used to work with back when I had my intern job were still unemployed as of January 2020 and not by choice. Would you say that their issues with gaining employment are related to fundamental character and/or work ethic flaws as well? If a significant part of the reason as to why they're still unemployed is because they don't want to settle for chain retail jobs after having completed residency, is that an indication that they have similar deep-seated flaws as myself?

I guess I just don't understand why you make such a strong correlation between my lack of interest in trying to compete for relatively undesirable pharmacist jobs and my likelihood of being successful in the tech industry. How does me not wanting to get licensed as a pharmacist and apply for chain retail jobs (which may not be objectively undesirable to all pharmacists but they are to me) or jobs located in extremely rural areas bode so negatively for my prospects as a software developer?

Maybe this will better convey what I'm trying to ask. Let's say I was licensed as a pharmacist AND had just recently completed a bootcamp. In that hypothetical scenario (which stands a good chance of becoming reality, sans the being licensed as a pharmacist part), I would still not be able to get a pharmacist job locally or at any facility in the region, simply because of the fact that there are are no jobs here aside for the random chain retail job that pops up from time to time, which I wouldn't qualify for per confirmation of the DMs I've talked to for both CVS and Walgreens (not that I'd want them, anyways). On the other hand, I have already confirmed with hiring managers that I WOULD qualify for entry-level software developer jobs with the bootcamp training.

So in other words, why do you seem to feel that whatever traits are responsible for my insistence to not get licensed as a pharmacist will also pose some sort of insurmountable barrier against me getting a job as a software developer? Or rather, are you suggesting that even if I'm able to get the entry-level job, I'm likely to be one of the engineers who gets weeded out a few years into their career?

(And just as an aside - I don't really see how the whole Nike-esque "just do it" mindset you seemed to express when you stated that if I want to be successful, then I need to just be successful is viable. When there are plenty of residency-trained pharmacists who can't find jobs simply because of the sheer numbers game at play - for example, I was told that the staffing position I was offered and which was retracted ended up receiving upwards of 200 applications through USAJobs - then it begs the question: how is it always the fault of the applicant when they find themselves in the position of not being able to find a job they'd be satisfied with? What are those pharmacists doing wrong who have completed residencies and grown their networks and yet who still can't find jobs [or non-retail positions, at least]?)

 

[lord999]

You said my grades and social network in pharmacy school were below average; however, I had well over a 3.8 GPA and have the pharmacy supervisors I worked with back when I had my intern job as references, which is more than many of my former classmates can say, considering that over half of them didn't even work throughout pharmacy school. So if that's considered below average, then what would constitute an above average pharmacy school graduate?

And yes, obviously not having a license places me in the bottom tier among pharmacists. On that note, what tier would you place the pharmacists in who can't find jobs (or can only find retail jobs)?

For example, all but one or two of the 12 local residency program graduates I used to work with back when I had my intern job were still unemployed as of January 2020 and not by choice. Would you say that their issues with gaining employment are related to fundamental character and/or work ethic flaws as well? If a significant part of the reason as to why they're still unemployed is because they don't want to settle for chain retail jobs after having completed residency, is that an indication that they have similar deep-seated flaws as myself?

I guess I just don't understand why you make such a strong correlation between my lack of interest in trying to compete for relatively undesirable pharmacist jobs and my likelihood of being successful in the tech industry. How does me not wanting to get licensed as a pharmacist and apply for chain retail jobs (which may not be objectively undesirable to all pharmacists but they are to me) or jobs located in extremely rural areas bode so negatively for my prospects as a software developer?

Maybe this will better convey what I'm trying to ask. Let's say I was licensed as a pharmacist AND had just recently completed a bootcamp. In that hypothetical scenario (which stands a good chance of becoming reality, sans the being licensed as a pharmacist part), I would still not be able to get a pharmacist job locally or at any facility in the region, simply because of the fact that there are are no jobs here aside for the random chain retail job that pops up from time to time, which I wouldn't qualify for per confirmation of the DMs I've talked to for both CVS and Walgreens (not that I'd want them, anyways). On the other hand, I have already confirmed with hiring managers that I WOULD qualify for entry-level software developer jobs with the bootcamp training.

So in other words, why do you seem to feel that whatever traits are responsible for my insistence to not get licensed as a pharmacist will also pose some sort of insurmountable barrier against me getting a job as a software developer? Or rather, are you suggesting that even if I'm able to get the entry-level job, I'm likely to be one of the engineers who gets weeded out a few years into their career?

(And just as an aside - I don't really see how the whole Nike-esque "just do it" mindset you seemed to express when you stated that if I want to be successful, then I need to just be successful is viable. When there are plenty of residency-trained pharmacists who can't find jobs simply because of the sheer numbers game at play - for example, I was told that the staffing position I was offered and which was retracted ended up receiving upwards of 200 applications through USAJobs - then it begs the question: how is it always the fault of the applicant when they find themselves in the position of not being able to find a job they'd be satisfied with? What are those pharmacists doing wrong who have completed residencies and grown their networks and yet who still can't find jobs [or non-retail positions, at least]?)

Yes, it is the fault of the applicant who doesn't understand their own strengths or had any competent read on the environment. You've already made an atrocious mistake by your own definition once, much more likely to happen again with a bad read on your abilities. You put in the work, you can even be successful in the pharmacy world too, and in fact, you've already supposedly accomplished enough that the last 10% is in reach, but either you have some very significant red flag that holds you back (and that will cross over into tech) or you do not represent yourself well enough.

Yes, it is insurmountable to be relatively successful because the licensing process is extremely trivial for pharmacy. If anyone who knows the licensing process of pharmacy is in any position to hire in the tech world, they will immediately reject your application as would I if you did not have a license for any reason post-1995 without any practice experience.

I guess an above average pharmacy student is licensed within two months of the ATT availability and has a job (even as a resident) these days. It's no longer easy, but it's not that difficult yet. And if you're wondering if people like me can still hack it, realize that they go find me for jobs, I haven't applied for a job in 12 years. That's the position you should be in mid or senior career status, that you are wanted more than you want them. Any less, and you could do better.

You were not told that from USAJobs officially unless the hiring manager is trying to get himself/herself suspended by OHRM. If you were told that by pharmacy, they don't have any obligation to be on the level, and I know for certain that they cannot offer a position to someone who is not licensed by the select hire date which you self-admittedly weren't. I don't believe that it was retracted solely for oversubscription if you were selected. I am very sure you selectively heard or that the hiring manager was not being candid given that impediment.

how is it always the fault of the applicant when they find themselves in the position of not being able to find a job they'd be satisfied with?

Because the applicant is the only person who that criteria applies to. In every unsuccessful job an applicant has ever had, the common element is the applicant. Shortages forced supervisors to hire obviously defective people just to plug the hole, but now, most of those defectives can be replaced. Lots of the layoffs are supervisors settling old scores with problems. No one owes you a job, much less satisfaction. That's on you to figure out your abilities and ambitions relative to the entrance and sustainment requirements. I'm not saying hard work, diligence, and a great attitude give you a satisfying job, they are the minimum necessary to have a chance at one, there's still a lot of luck and timing involved.

Maybe you're going to be the 1% that comes back after a couple of years and shows a W2. But not as you are, and honestly, there are plenty of better options from the CS, Math, Stat, and Actuarial majors who don't need to bootcamp right now such that unless you do figure out how to leverage your background for some in, you're below average competing there too. But success from bootcamp is still in the $80s and that's fleeting especially with the current padding of certain stats. That said, you definitely present with major red flags especially with introspection that are career inhibiting until you fix them.

 

[Argentium]

You said my grades and social network in pharmacy school were below average; however, I had well over a 3.8 GPA and have the pharmacy supervisors I worked with back when I had my intern job as references, which is more than many of my former classmates can say, considering that over half of them didn't even work throughout pharmacy school. So if that's considered below average, then what would constitute an above average pharmacy school graduate?

And yes, obviously not having a license places me in the bottom tier among pharmacists. On that note, what tier would you place the pharmacists in who can't find jobs (or can only find retail jobs)?

For example, all but one or two of the 12 local residency program graduates I used to work with back when I had my intern job were still unemployed as of January 2020 and not by choice. Would you say that their issues with gaining employment are related to fundamental character and/or work ethic flaws as well? If a significant part of the reason as to why they're still unemployed is because they don't want to settle for chain retail jobs after having completed residency, is that an indication that they have similar deep-seated flaws as myself?

I guess I just don't understand why you make such a strong correlation between my lack of interest in trying to compete for relatively undesirable pharmacist jobs and my likelihood of being successful in the tech industry. How does me not wanting to get licensed as a pharmacist and apply for chain retail jobs (which may not be objectively undesirable to all pharmacists but they are to me) or jobs located in extremely rural areas bode so negatively for my prospects as a software developer?

Maybe this will better convey what I'm trying to ask. Let's say I was licensed as a pharmacist AND had just recently completed a bootcamp. In that hypothetical scenario (which stands a good chance of becoming reality, sans the being licensed as a pharmacist part), I would still not be able to get a pharmacist job locally or at any facility in the region, simply because of the fact that there are are no jobs here aside for the random chain retail job that pops up from time to time, which I wouldn't qualify for per confirmation of the DMs I've talked to for both CVS and Walgreens (not that I'd want them, anyways). On the other hand, I have already confirmed with hiring managers that I WOULD qualify for entry-level software developer jobs with the bootcamp training.

So in other words, why do you seem to feel that whatever traits are responsible for my insistence to not get licensed as a pharmacist will also pose some sort of insurmountable barrier against me getting a job as a software developer? Or rather, are you suggesting that even if I'm able to get the entry-level job, I'm likely to be one of the engineers who gets weeded out a few years into their career?

(And just as an aside - I don't really see how the whole Nike-esque "just do it" mindset you seemed to express when you stated that if I want to be successful, then I need to just be successful is viable. When there are plenty of residency-trained pharmacists who can't find jobs simply because of the sheer numbers game at play - for example, I was told that the staffing position I was offered and which was retracted ended up receiving upwards of 200 applications through USAJobs - then it begs the question: how is it always the fault of the applicant when they find themselves in the position of not being able to find a job they'd be satisfied with? What are those pharmacists doing wrong who have completed residencies and grown their networks and yet who still can't find jobs [or non-retail positions, at least]?)

Multiple people who are at the top of pharmacy / their respective fields and are hiring managers have told you that they wouldn't touch you with a ten foot pole based on your posts. Instead of denial, maybe you should think about why that is and make sure your forum persona doesn't translate into real life.

 

[Hels2007]

such a strong correlation between my lack of interest in trying to compete for relatively undesirable pharmacist jobs and my likelihood of being successful in the tech industry.

That's not what he is saying.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Yes, it is the fault of the applicant who doesn't understand their own strengths or had any competent read on the environment. You've already made an atrocious mistake by your own definition once, much more likely to happen again with a bad read on your abilities. You put in the work, you can even be successful in the pharmacy world too, and in fact, you've already supposedly accomplished enough that the last 10% is in reach, but either you have some very significant red flag that holds you back (and that will cross over into tech) or you do not represent yourself well enough.

Yes, it is insurmountable to be relatively successful because the licensing process is extremely trivial for pharmacy. If anyone who knows the licensing process of pharmacy is in any position to hire in the tech world, they will immediately reject your application as would I if you did not have a license for any reason post-1995 without any practice experience.

I guess an above average pharmacy student is licensed within two months of the ATT availability and has a job (even as a resident) these days. It's no longer easy, but it's not that difficult yet. And if you're wondering if people like me can still hack it, realize that they go find me for jobs, I haven't applied for a job in 12 years. That's the position you should be in mid or senior career status, that you are wanted more than you want them. Any less, and you could do better.

You were not told that from USAJobs officially unless the hiring manager is trying to get himself/herself suspended by OHRM. If you were told that by pharmacy, they don't have any obligation to be on the level, and I know for certain that they cannot offer a position to someone who is not licensed by the select hire date which you self-admittedly weren't. I don't believe that it was retracted solely for oversubscription if you were selected. I am very sure you selectively heard or that the hiring manager was not being candid given that impediment.

how is it always the fault of the applicant when they find themselves in the position of not being able to find a job they'd be satisfied with?

Because the applicant is the only person who that criteria applies to. In every unsuccessful job an applicant has ever had, the common element is the applicant. Shortages forced supervisors to hire obviously defective people just to plug the hole, but now, most of those defectives can be replaced. Lots of the layoffs are supervisors settling old scores with problems. No one owes you a job, much less satisfaction. That's on you to figure out your abilities and ambitions relative to the entrance and sustainment requirements. I'm not saying hard work, diligence, and a great attitude give you a satisfying job, they are the minimum necessary to have a chance at one, there's still a lot of luck and timing involved.

Maybe you're going to be the 1% that comes back after a couple of years and shows a W2. But not as you are, and honestly, there are plenty of better options from the CS, Math, Stat, and Actuarial majors who don't need to bootcamp right now such that unless you do figure out how to leverage your background for some in, you're below average competing there too. But success from bootcamp is still in the $80s and that's fleeting especially with the current padding of certain stats. That said, you definitely present with major red flags especially with introspection that are career inhibiting until you fix them.

I appreciate you being upfront about the fact that there are tech hiring managers who would reject my application on the basis of me not being a licensed pharmacist. It's obviously not what I want to hear, but I'd rather be in the position of knowing what to potentially expect in the tech job market (even if the local tech companies don't *appear* to have a problem with me not being licensed, at least on a conversational level).

Would simply being able to apply to CS jobs as a licensed pharmacist mitigate the red flag, or would I need to have at least some practice experience on my resume as well?

To paraphrase, you acknowledged that yes, it is due to candidate-attributable faults that a pharmacist is not able to find a job (or at least a job in a certain pharmacy practice area). That makes me genuinely curious - if a pharmacist graduated as a well above-average student, managed to match with and successfully complete a residency program, and is still unable to find even a basic inpatient staffing job despite having finished the residency program with solid rotation levels, then what shortcoming are they guilty of possessing at that point? Would a lack of elite networking skills (as well as network building itself) that they "should" have worked to capitalize on during residency be to blame at that point?

In other words, if there are, say, a total of 17 pharmacy residents between two hospital systems who graduate into a given region's job market every year and there are no more than 2 positions in the region (within a 3-4 hr radius) that come open every year, are the 15 residents who can't find jobs simply suffering the consequences of failing to have done whatever it would have taken to distinguish themselves as the 2 most attractive candidates out of the total pool of 17?

Also, you remarked that even though it's harder these days to find a job than it used to be, it's still not impossibly difficult. I acknowledge 100% that finding *a* pharmacy job wouldn't be an impossible task for me to overcome; to clarify on that point, what I've actually been referencing in my posts, more specifically, are my chances of finding an inpatient hospital staffing job. I have such a lack (I.e., no) interest in working as a retail pharmacist as well as such a strong opposition to the prospect of it that I'd rather pursue another profession entirely. So again, when I make reference to the fact that my chances of finding a job are slim, I'm not implying that I don't think I'd be able to find ANY job; more specifically, I'm referring to how low my odds of getting an inpatient position are.

... And that's honestly what all this comes down to. I have come to realize in recent months that I didn't do enough as a student to make myself competitive enough to obtain what have become the minimum qualifications (e.g., residency or very strong personal connections) for even entry-level hospital inpatient staffing jobs, and so in light of the fact that I cannot see myself being anything but miserable in retail along with my awareness of the fact that I can qualify for entry-level CS positions (at least locally) with a relatively minuscule investment of time/effort/money, I came to realize that I'd probably be happier making the career transition at this point (even with me being fully aware of the risks associated with making the switch). I honestly had no idea that the mere notion of wanting to make that transition would be considered such a glaring red flag. Is it primarily attributed to my decision to not even get licensed? Or does it also have to do with the fact that I'm not even willing to give working retail a chance?

BTW, on the topic of the job that was tentatively offered to me, here's everything I know about it. Back in June I got a phone call from the pharmacy personnel member who is considered to be the DOP equivalent at the facility during which they told me they had an inpatient staffing position opening up that was mine if I wanted it. Of course I told them yes, and they asked me to keep them updated on my progress towards getting licensed. About two weeks later, I received an email from them stating when they submitted the "hiring request" to HR, it was rejected on the basis of the position requiring at least a year of inpatient hospital experience (so a year of retail experience wouldn't count). He said that they tried to get around the requirement since they really wanted to hire me and were told that the experience requirement absolutely could not be waived.

Anyways, that's exactly how the dialogue progressed between the two of us. I have no idea if they straight up lied about anything. BTW, even though I alluded to the number of applications the position received in a previous post by stating that it received "upwards of 200," I was actually told the exact number of applications they received for it. If you're randomly curious, I guess I could send you more information on it via PM so you can verify the intel for yourself (which I'm assuming you have the ability to do), but if the pharmacy personnel at the site weren't authorized to relay this information to me in the first place, I don't want them to be retaliated against or punished professionally for having done so.

 

[TheBlaah]

In some ways you remind me of PAtoPharm[toAA] - you ruminate a great deal about external factors and the statistics, and I would recommend you also think about what it is that defines you and drives you.

You know. I was just thinking the same thing. The relative time period of graduation, their location, their preoccupation with the job market or some other field other than pharmacy, and obviously the long circuitous posting style also seems to match up.

Wouldn't it be something if they went from PAtoPharmtoAAtoCS?

 

[Hedgehog32]

You know. I was just thinking the same thing. The relative time period of graduation, their location, their preoccupation with the job market or some other field other than pharmacy, and obviously the long circuitous posting style also seems to match up.

Wouldn't it be something if they went from PAtoPharmtoAAtoCS?

This is probably the second or third time I have seen a reference to PAtoPharm[toAA]/PAtoPharmtoAAtoCS. I have no idea what this refers to aside from a few of the abbreviations themselves.

 

[Jbrl]

I appreciate you being upfront about the fact that there are tech hiring managers who would reject my application on the basis of me not being a licensed pharmacist. It's obviously not what I want to hear, but I'd rather be in the position of knowing what to potentially expect in the tech job market (even if the local tech companies don't *appear* to have a problem with me not being licensed, at least on a conversational level).

Would simply being able to apply to CS jobs as a licensed pharmacist mitigate the red flag, or would I need to have at least some practice experience on my resume as well?

To paraphrase, you acknowledged that yes, it is due to candidate-attributable faults that a pharmacist is not able to find a job (or at least a job in a certain pharmacy practice area). That makes me genuinely curious - if a pharmacist graduated as a well above-average student, managed to match with and successfully complete a residency program, and is still unable to find even a basic inpatient staffing job despite having finished the residency program with solid rotation levels, then what shortcoming are they guilty of possessing at that point? Would a lack of elite networking skills (as well as network building itself) that they "should" have worked to capitalize on during residency be to blame at that point?

In other words, if there are, say, a total of 17 pharmacy residents between two hospital systems who graduate into a given region's job market every year and there are no more than 2 positions in the region (within a 3-4 hr radius) that come open every year, are the 15 residents who can't find jobs simply suffering the consequences of failing to have done whatever it would have taken to distinguish themselves as the 2 most attractive candidates out of the total pool of 17?

Also, you remarked that even though it's harder these days to find a job than it used to be, it's still not impossibly difficult. I acknowledge 100% that finding *a* pharmacy job wouldn't be an impossible task for me to overcome; to clarify on that point, what I've actually been referencing in my posts, more specifically, are my chances of finding an inpatient hospital staffing job. I have such a lack (I.e., no) interest in working as a retail pharmacist as well as such a strong opposition to the prospect of it that I'd rather pursue another profession entirely. So again, when I make reference to the fact that my chances of finding a job are slim, I'm not implying that I don't think I'd be able to find ANY job; more specifically, I'm referring to how low my odds of getting an inpatient position are.

... And that's honestly what all this comes down to. I have come to realize in recent months that I didn't do enough as a student to make myself competitive enough to obtain what have become the minimum qualifications (e.g., residency or very strong personal connections) for even entry-level hospital inpatient staffing jobs, and so in light of the fact that I cannot see myself being anything but miserable in retail along with my awareness of the fact that I can qualify for entry-level CS positions (at least locally) with a relatively minuscule investment of time/effort/money, I came to realize that I'd probably be happier making the career transition at this point (even with me being fully aware of the risks associated with making the switch). I honestly had no idea that the mere notion of wanting to make that transition would be considered such a glaring red flag. Is it primarily attributed to my decision to not even get licensed? Or does it also have to do with the fact that I'm not even willing to give working retail a chance?

BTW, on the topic of the job that was tentatively offered to me, here's everything I know about it. Back in June I got a phone call from the pharmacy personnel member who is considered to be the DOP equivalent at the facility during which they told me they had an inpatient staffing position opening up that was mine if I wanted it. Of course I told them yes, and they asked me to keep them updated on my progress towards getting licensed. About two weeks later, I received an email from them stating when they submitted the "hiring request" to HR, it was rejected on the basis of the position requiring at least a year of inpatient hospital experience (so a year of retail experience wouldn't count). He said that they tried to get around the requirement since they really wanted to hire me and were told that the experience requirement absolutely could not be waived.

Anyways, that's exactly how the dialogue progressed between the two of us. I have no idea if they straight up lied about anything. BTW, even though I alluded to the number of applications the position received in a previous post by stating that it received "upwards of 200," I was actually told the exact number of applications they received for it. If you're randomly curious, I guess I could send you more information on it via PM so you can verify the intel for yourself (which I'm assuming you have the ability to do), but if the pharmacy personnel at the site weren't authorized to relay this information to me in the first place, I don't want them to be retaliated against or punished professionally for having done so.

My general impression from following this convo here is that you seem to miss the forest for the trees. You also have a natural inclination to immediately disagree to advice given to you, which can be constructive, were it not for your penchance to rehash the same points covered. Other posters have given you some great advice that I think you should take time to synthesize together. To be honest, you have all the information you need to make a plan for yourself, and more discussion is not going to help you further.

Ultimately I think you still need to find what it is that drives you other than a desire to flee. Unhappiness isn’t a domain exclusive to pharmacy, after all.

 

[Hedgehog32]

My general impression from following this convo here is that you seem to miss the forest for the trees. You also have a natural inclination to immediately disagree to advice given to you, which can be constructive, were it not for your penchance to rehash the same points covered. Other posters have given you some great advice that I think you should take time to synthesize together. To be honest, you have all the information you need to make a plan for yourself, and more discussion is not going to help you further.

Ultimately I think you still need to find what it is that drives you other than a desire to flee. Unhappiness isn’t a domain exclusive to pharmacy, after all.

I agree; at this point, I want to just put a plan into action and move forward with it. I actually realized just a few minutes ago that my entire P4 year has basically been a descent into neuroticism and worrying and just all-around negativity, and I'm ready to just be wholly invested in something else altogether so I won't think about this stuff anymore.

 

[Hels2007]

to synthesize together.

Ain't you an optimist...

 

[Hels2007]

Thanks to a banner ad on this very page, I just learned of such an excellent option as a master of liberal arts in gastronomy degree, to be obtained from Boston College for mere $45K or so. With subjects like "Philosophy of food" and "Reading and writing a food memoir". What an option for jobless PharmDs trying to find their place in the world!

 

[owlegrad]

I agree; at this point, I want to just put a plan into action and move forward with it. I actually realized just a few minutes ago that my entire P4 year has basically been a descent into neuroticism and worrying and just all-around negativity, and I'm ready to just be wholly invested in something else altogether so I won't think about this stuff anymore.

Are you for real right now? The whole point being made was that if you run just to run you will always keep running. And you respond with “I agree, it is time to start running!”.

Anyway good luck and have fun.

 

[Marzapan]

Thanks to a banner ad on this very page, I just learned of such an excellent option as a master of liberal arts in gastronomy degree, to be obtained from Boston College for mere $45K or so. With subjects like "Philosophy of food" and "Reading and writing a food memoir". What an option for jobless PharmDs trying to find their place in the world!

Are you saying that SDN is a sellout to diploma mills/useless schools for the sake of money and is part of the problem why so many kids are being led astray in their professional pursuits?

I mean, if these schools don't have social media platforms like this to advertise on, then they will struggle with recruiting and will have to close down, so quality control can be maintained. But if you let a tumor fester and don't cut off its nutrient source...

 

[Hels2007]

Mainly I was just dumbstruck that such a degree exists and wanted to share with whomever I could (and I did, not just on SDN). I mean, courses sound like fun and I would definitely sign up for something like that if it was a continuing education course for $300-400 per course, but they charge $1000 per credit hour, and somehow presumably issue grades, and then award these degrees... and degree in theory should lead to (improved) employment opportunities.

To me it's more of an illustration of how PharmD is not the most useless graduate degree out there, even today. As far as advertising on SDN... if anyone actually seriously goes for that degree, and it's not their employer paying for it, they are just dumb enough to deserve it. I have always been a firm believer in social darwinism.

PS I really, really want to see the grading criteria for some of those courses. Something tells me it's a participation trophy galore...

 

[Marzapan]

Mainly I was just dumbstruck that such a degree exists and wanted to share with whomever I could (and I did, not just on SDN). I mean, courses sound like fun and I would definitely sign up for something like that if it was a continuing education course for $300-400 per course, but they charge $1000 per credit hour, and somehow presumably issue grades, and then award these degrees... and degree in theory should lead to (improved) employment opportunities.

To me it's more of an illustration of how PharmD is not the most useless graduate degree out there, even today. As far as advertising on SDN... if anyone actually seriously goes for that degree, and it's not their employer paying for it, they are just dumb enough to deserve it. I have always been a firm believer in social darwinism.

PS I really, really want to see the grading criteria for some of those courses. Something tells me it's a participation trophy galore...

Well the PharmD is branded/advertised as a "doctorate-level professional degree" which is different than a graduate degree so it actually still IS the most useless "professional" degree (It could be compared to useless degrees at the PhD level but there is a camp who will delineate between a PhD and other terminal "professional" degrees like MD, JD etc. so I won't go that far).

 

[notspecial(ty)]

You said my grades and social network in pharmacy school were below average; however, I had well over a 3.8 GPA and have the pharmacy supervisors I worked with back when I had my intern job as references, which is more than many of my former classmates can say, considering that over half of them didn't even work throughout pharmacy school. So if that's considered below average, then what would constitute an above average pharmacy school graduate?

And yes, obviously not having a license places me in the bottom tier among pharmacists. On that note, what tier would you place the pharmacists in who can't find jobs (or can only find retail jobs)?

For example, all but one or two of the 12 local residency program graduates I used to work with back when I had my intern job were still unemployed as of January 2020 and not by choice. Would you say that their issues with gaining employment are related to fundamental character and/or work ethic flaws as well? If a significant part of the reason as to why they're still unemployed is because they don't want to settle for chain retail jobs after having completed residency, is that an indication that they have similar deep-seated flaws as myself?

I guess I just don't understand why you make such a strong correlation between my lack of interest in trying to compete for relatively undesirable pharmacist jobs and my likelihood of being successful in the tech industry. How does me not wanting to get licensed as a pharmacist and apply for chain retail jobs (which may not be objectively undesirable to all pharmacists but they are to me) or jobs located in extremely rural areas bode so negatively for my prospects as a software developer?

Maybe this will better convey what I'm trying to ask. Let's say I was licensed as a pharmacist AND had just recently completed a bootcamp. In that hypothetical scenario (which stands a good chance of becoming reality, sans the being licensed as a pharmacist part), I would still not be able to get a pharmacist job locally or at any facility in the region, simply because of the fact that there are are no jobs here aside for the random chain retail job that pops up from time to time, which I wouldn't qualify for per confirmation of the DMs I've talked to for both CVS and Walgreens (not that I'd want them, anyways). On the other hand, I have already confirmed with hiring managers that I WOULD qualify for entry-level software developer jobs with the bootcamp training.

So in other words, why do you seem to feel that whatever traits are responsible for my insistence to not get licensed as a pharmacist will also pose some sort of insurmountable barrier against me getting a job as a software developer? Or rather, are you suggesting that even if I'm able to get the entry-level job, I'm likely to be one of the engineers who gets weeded out a few years into their career?

(And just as an aside - I don't really see how the whole Nike-esque "just do it" mindset you seemed to express when you stated that if I want to be successful, then I need to just be successful is viable. When there are plenty of residency-trained pharmacists who can't find jobs simply because of the sheer numbers game at play - for example, I was told that the staffing position I was offered and which was retracted ended up receiving upwards of 200 applications through USAJobs - then it begs the question: how is it always the fault of the applicant when they find themselves in the position of not being able to find a job they'd be satisfied with? What are those pharmacists doing wrong who have completed residencies and grown their networks and yet who still can't find jobs [or non-retail positions, at least]?)

Hedgehog, I think you should get your license to get the ball rolling in your pharmacy career. It seems like you like to assume the worst and plan ahead. Sometimes I’m like this too. You’re already thinking about Plan B when you haven’t done Plan A. Pass the exams and get licensed. Because yea, no one will look at your application if you don’t have that basic requirement. Every person’s employment story is different. You can’t assume you’ll end up in the same unemployed position as someone else. This is coming from someone who was unemployed for 1.5 years. Not the scenario I wanted to be in but that’s what I got. I just kept going and now I work in specialty

 

[PharFromNormal]

Did you guys see that part when he was all in trying to get CS advice from lord and lord just ultimately gave him that same take down as the rest of us. That was great! Can’t wait to see what happens next!

 

[lord999]

Did you guys see that part when he was all in trying to get CS advice from lord and lord just ultimately gave him that same take down as the rest of us. That was great! Can’t wait to see what happens next!

One of the real headaches of my job is that I have to deal with IT Contractors, who don't have to be nice, professional, or even polite if they get a job done. I view any job with real security as ones where you have to tolerate neurotic people. Certain IT jobs are that, but not all of them. And trust me, we all have the names of those contractors for when we can get rid of them, we do. Oddly enough from recent experience, roofers and siders can be awful jerks if you get the wrong people. I fortunately got great people and made it a point to buy them lunch, beer, and liquor daily while they were repairing my home, but it was out of fear of substandard work as it was anything else.

There was a golden era where we could be like that, but that's long past. There was an era where physicians could be like that, and we're making it past. Emotional labor is part of the job.

Thanks to a banner ad on this very page, I just learned of such an excellent option as a master of liberal arts in gastronomy degree, to be obtained from Boston College for mere $45K or so. With subjects like "Philosophy of food" and "Reading and writing a food memoir". What an option for jobless PharmDs trying to find their place in the world!

My wife and I are interested in doing that degree as a retirement exercise although she is an oenophile and I am a teetotaler gourmand.

The Unisg Master Programs...

Since its founding, the University of Gastronomic Sciences has offered Masters programs with an international scope... Study foodways and its systems

www.unisg.it

But if you're going to do it, spend $18,000 Euro and eat and drink some of the finest food and wine on earth under the Piedmontese sun and spend the rest of it on housing, a refugee domestic, and extracurricular activities. From a couple of retired partners who did this, it was well worth the tuition. If the Civil Service allows it, I'll take my earned mid-career paid sabbatical to do this. I'm due for my second one now.

Search - OPM.gov

Welcome to opm.gov

www.opm.gov

 

[Hedgehog32]

Did you guys see that part when he was all in trying to get CS advice from lord and lord just ultimately gave him that same take down as the rest of us. That was great! Can’t wait to see what happens next!

Just wondering, what will your response be if I actually manage to accomplish the near-impossible feat (as lord999 seems to characterize it to be) of actually getting an entry-level software engineer job this January/February after completing bootcamp training?

The sad part is that even experienced pharmacists aren't able to get even chain retail jobs in my area simply because there ARE no jobs... so what will it say about the pharmacy profession if someone with my background (and who has been described by you as a "flight risk") is able to get a software engineering job here when experienced, qualified pharmacists can't get anything at all?

 

[Argentium]

An interesting thread on reddit. Title is "[OC] My pandemic job search for entry level software engineering positions." n=1 of course (though many people in the comments section also confirmed their experience) but just goes to show that the first job is oftentimes the hardest to find

A major source of tech employment continues to be challenged - start-ups / pre-revenue or low revenue companies. With capital markets on a downward trajectory (VC, angel funding, IPO, etc.) and most folk in cash conservation mode, it is only a matter of time before a lot of these guys burn through their reserves and are in some serious trouble.

This is not unique to tech, of course and a lot of industries are facing some big challenges if corona drags on much longer ... but tech is unique exposed since they don't have the cash flow some other industries / bigger players have in order to ride out the storm

 

[DH1987]

You're not talented at all yet. My guess is that with some basic training, you're probably about $50k talented without job security and crap options. I can train a high school graduate to be a patch monkey to get paid more than teachers (and I leave that task to the DoD enlisted hires as its about four levels beneath my priorities). Code bootcamp warriors are $80-120k talented with a 4 year expiration date give or take six. C++ and Java programmers with solid portfolios are $90-140k on average with an expiration date of 40 years old give or take 10 (they will be disenfranchised when they are 50 to 55 though and must go freelance). Programmers who can't easily switch languages or paradigms have a 10 or so year expiration date. The only language I retained from training was FORTRAN, and that's only for supercomputing concerns. Everything else had to be learned in the last decade. And what I know now, it's going to be practically useless in about a decade besides C and R.

Regarding the "expiration dates" of programmers, what is the reasoning behind this? Is it because of a decreasing ability to learn new languages with increasing age compared to younger people, or is it a statistical pattern?

Do you think it's worth it for someone in their early-mid 30's to self-teach programming as a skill? (yes, that's me)

 

[Hedgehog32]

An interesting thread on reddit. Title is "[OC] My pandemic job search for entry level software engineering positions." n=1 of course (though many people in the comments section also confirmed their experience) but just goes to show that the first job is oftentimes the hardest to find

View attachment 313450

A major source of tech employment continues to be challenged - start-ups / pre-revenue or low revenue companies. With capital markets on a downward trajectory (VC, angel funding, IPO, etc.) and most folk in cash conservation mode, it is only a matter of time before a lot of these guys burn through their reserves and are in some serious trouble.

This is not unique to tech, of course and a lot of industries are facing some big challenges if corona drags on much longer ... but tech is unique exposed since they don't have the cash flow some other industries / bigger players have in order to ride out the storm

Yeah, the downturn is unfortunate and disappointing. Hoping the economy (or at least that segment of it) will have picked up again by January or February, which is when I'd be finishing the bootcamp program.

I'm cautiously optimistic about the fact that there are a couple F500 companies in my area that regularly hire CS professionals and whose hiring trends haven't really been affected by the pandemic (still plenty of SWE jobs), so I'm hoping that will still be the case when I'm looking for a job. It also helps that most grads of the local uni's CS program all want to move to Atlanta.

 

[TheBlaah]

Regarding the "expiration dates" of programmers, what is the reasoning behind this? Is it because of a decreasing ability to learn new languages with increasing age compared to younger people, or is it a statistical pattern?

Do you think it's worth it for someone in their early-mid 30's to self-teach programming as a skill? (yes, that's me)

Changes in physiology is part of it is, yes. Programming is one of the most rapidly changing skillsets and knowledge can quickly become outdated and obsolete. Generally speaking, the older you are, the harder it is to learn new languages and adapt to new situations. Programming in itself is a much more mentally stressful occupation. Also, in many companies, they have certain "crunch" periods before a big release, which means working overtime as a salaried employee; this also means more downtime during calmer periods though. Many older employees just cannot continue to or do not wish to endure that kind of stress anymore.

Like lord999 said, many of the older folks usually transition into management or education.

Whether it's worth trying to self-teach programming depends on your goal. If you're just learning as a hobby or to assist in your current occupation, it's worth as much as you believe it's worth.
If you wish to transition to another career though...probably not. As mentioned before, you're already older so it'll likely be more difficult to keep up (as well as awkward as you'll be taking direction from people much younger than you). The fact that you're self-teaching means you won't have the inherent value of a degree or the network/reputation provided by a college. Lastly, nobody can really vouch for your skills, abilities, or the quality of your education. Why hire a complete unknown when there's plenty of safer choices to choose from?
It wouldn't be impossible but it sure will be a uphill battle.

 

[lord999]

Regarding the "expiration dates" of programmers, what is the reasoning behind this? Is it because of a decreasing ability to learn new languages with increasing age compared to younger people, or is it a statistical pattern?

Do you think it's worth it for someone in their early-mid 30's to self-teach programming as a skill? (yes, that's me)

Too expensive, too unproductive, not hungry enough to keep up with the CE involved (and it's not mandated, it's things you have to do to keep up), have attitude problems. I know, I'll hire them as contractors for 5 digits if they're 75% as productive as their peak and they don't want to change and throw them away when they become tired or tiresome. They definitely get it when they're 50 and try to act like they are 30 with more attitude problems. Management does not have those limitations. IT is definitely not, go to school, get the job, and collect the paycheck. IT is go to school perpetually, work perpetually, and campaign for your job perpetually.

The main issue, and I see this with older Pharmaceutical Sales Reps (PSR's), MSA's, and IT, is that they forget that the reason they have those jobs is that they will work at those jobs and work to retain those jobs. PSR's and MSA's have upkeep both in skills, contacts, and presentation (I believe PSR's have it harder in that respect while MSA's have it harder in the contacts). IT has to maintain skills, so are you always going to work in a perpetual state of bootcamping? Because that's what it is if you don't want your job eaten up by a fresh bootcamp graduate. Those of us who are wiser have skills in topics that bootcamping doesn't solve. Basically, if it is quick and easy for you to learn, it'll likely be quick and easy for someone else to learn. Weird talents like archaic languages, a good sense for unusual data structures, or unusual coupling (I can do assembly or I can do this particular brand of FGPA programming) keep you alive as even though the knowledge is out there, there isn't a group of people who know it.

There is an open secret in the pharmacy world for that special skillset, you can look at ASAP material to get an idea of not only how easy the world of Pharmacy IT is, but for all the "informaticists" out there, how few of them even bother to look any further than their workplace. Real IT professionals know their tech but also know their market. I already know what's going down for the reporting to Palantir (aka "HHS Protect" which whitewashes the reporting) and the new API models like FHIR. Do you? Even if you do not work in that area, you should know about the tech and how it changes the environment in terms of what you work on and why.

Those tech bros at Silicon Valley are finally realizing that they can't be tech bros into the mid-30s, and that's personally satisfying to me that they are finally understand what it means to be in it for the long haul. It's really exhausting, and you can't be young forever (despite the plastic surgery they're getting).

Silicon Valley Ageism Prompting Increase In Men Seeking Cosmetic Procedures

Ageism is becoming a growing problem in the male-dominated tech industry and some are finding creative ways around it.

sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com

 

[Hedgehog32]

Changes in physiology is part of it is, yes. Programming is one of the most rapidly changing skillsets and knowledge can quickly become outdated and obsolete. Generally speaking, the older you are, the harder it is to learn new languages and adapt to new situations. Programming in itself is a much more mentally stressful occupation. Also, in many companies, they have certain "crunch" periods before a big release, which means working overtime as a salaried employee; this also means more downtime during calmer periods though. Many older employees just cannot continue to or do not wish to endure that kind of stress anymore.

Like lord999 said, many of the older folks usually transition into management or education.

Whether it's worth trying to self-teach programming depends on your goal. If you're just learning as a hobby or to assist in your current occupation, it's worth as much as you believe it's worth.
If you wish to transition to another career though...probably not. As mentioned before, you're already older so it'll likely be more difficult to keep up (as well as awkward as you'll be taking direction from people much younger than you). The fact that you're self-teaching means you won't have the inherent value of a degree or the network/reputation provided by a college. Lastly, nobody can really vouch for your skills, abilities, or the quality of your education. Why hire a complete unknown when there's plenty of safer choices to choose from?
It wouldn't be impossible but it sure will be a uphill battle.

So if CS is a bad choice for older people (30+) who want/have to transition from pharmacy into something else, what other in-demand professions are there? Is it better to stick with something in the healthcare field? I guess PA would be an obvious choice with the short schooling, but it seems like most people consider saturation of the PA job market to be an inevitability (have heard it's already happening in larger cities).

I read a well-sourced article that was published not long ago that stated that something like 70-80% of the professions with the most projected job market growth were subspecialties of CS, so it really sucks if ageism really does disqualify older students from getting jobs.

 

[PharFromNormal]

Just wondering, what will your response be if I actually manage to accomplish the near-impossible feat (as lord999 seems to characterize it to be) of actually getting an entry-level software engineer job this January/February after completing bootcamp training?

The sad part is that even experienced pharmacists aren't able to get even chain retail jobs in my area simply because there ARE no jobs... so what will it say about the pharmacy profession if someone with my background (and who has been described by you as a "flight risk") is able to get a software engineering job here when experienced, qualified pharmacists can't get anything at all?

Here’s what you are missing us all say...

Do we agree some people in any field can’t find jobs? (I.e some pharmacists in your area with retail Or entry level software engineers) YES

Do we agree that means no one can get a job? (I.e. some pharmacists in you area in retail Or entry level software engineers) NO

Again convincing someone to pay you for your work goes beyond what you think you know, what you think you’re capable of, what field you’re in, what position you want, and what you think you deserve or are entitled to.

What will my response be? How about you do it first and come back here then to find out. What will your response be when you dont? Asking us for barista boot camp info?

 

[Hels2007]

The famous 'monkey and banana problem' unfolding in front of our very own eyes.

 

[mentos]

And yes, obviously not having a license places me in the bottom tier among pharmacists.

Wait, you never even got licensed? What have you been doing this whole time? Don't you have student loans to pay? I know some people go into industry and don't need their Rph license, but are you even working?

New grads can't expect to have a unicorn job right out of school anymore. You gotta put in your dues. I started overnight at a ghetto CVS. I thought I'd never get out of retail but one day a classmate, who I wasn't even close to, contacted me about an opening before it went public and I got in.

 

[Argentium]

The famous 'monkey and banana problem' unfolding in front of our very own eyes.

One of the biggest red flags out there: Thinking you're really smart and not knowing that you're actually an idiot. This disease becomes more prevalent the older you get (just as @lord999 mentioned in his post, which is why age-ism exists in tech but many other fields as well, especially those that are rapidly changing).

Shows a lack of self awareness
Shows an inability to learn and adapt
Shows a lack of humility

What really kills you is that you don't even know you're stupid so you don't put in the effort to learn and you hold on to your incorrect opinions vs others (e.g. management). These are things that are very difficult to teach or unlearn by the time someone is older so ... PASS, I'll find someone who I don't have to teach fundamental soft skills or has an attitude problem.

I would take a hungry/pleasant average person over a smart jerk any day in my field of work

 

[Hels2007]

What really kills you is that you don't even know you're stupid so you don't put in the effort to learn and you hold on to your incorrect opinions vs others (e.g. management). These are things that are very difficult to teach or unlearn by the time someone is an adult (18+) so ... PASS, I'll find someone who I don't have to teach fundamental soft skills or has an attitude problem.

I would say that it's normal to develop introspection and analytical skills and adaptability through one's mid-20s. I wouldn't expect an 18 year old to think like an adult, not because they are biologically incapable, but because the expectations are not set up for them to develop these skills. School is all about 'do what the teacher and syllabus say, and you will get a good grade', sports is all 'listen to the coach', home is (for most people) 'listen to the parents' and there is very little unstructured time to actually develop self-motivation, leadership or anything else. So I am willing to take a young adult with demonstrated interest and ability to learn these soft skills any day. But when someone is 30+ and displays thinking of a high schooler, it's a red flag. And of course, any time anyone over 18 displays thinking of a toddler (I am willing to give teens a pass, they can be awfully toddler-like at times) is a huge red flag.

I would take a hungry/pleasant average person over a smart jerk any day in my field of work

It's the matter of function. And definition ('jerk' can mean different things to different people). In my role, I would take intelligence over pleasant personality every time, but there are certain character flaws that are an absolute no-go. And I honestly don't recall ever meeting a truly smart person who was unpleasant to be around... usually they are fascinating people. I suppose they are out there, but not among people I have personally worked with. The (blessedly few) irritating coworkers were inevitably those... lacking in the analytical skills and critical thinking department.

 

[deleted562805]

Changes in physiology is part of it is, yes. Programming is one of the most rapidly changing skillsets and knowledge can quickly become outdated and obsolete. Generally speaking, the older you are, the harder it is to learn new languages and adapt to new situations. Programming in itself is a much more mentally stressful occupation. Also, in many companies, they have certain "crunch" periods before a big release, which means working overtime as a salaried employee; this also means more downtime during calmer periods though. Many older employees just cannot continue to or do not wish to endure that kind of stress anymore.

Like lord999 said, many of the older folks usually transition into management or education.

Whether it's worth trying to self-teach programming depends on your goal. If you're just learning as a hobby or to assist in your current occupation, it's worth as much as you believe it's worth.
If you wish to transition to another career though...probably not. As mentioned before, you're already older so it'll likely be more difficult to keep up (as well as awkward as you'll be taking direction from people much younger than you). The fact that you're self-teaching means you won't have the inherent value of a degree or the network/reputation provided by a college. Lastly, nobody can really vouch for your skills, abilities, or the quality of your education. Why hire a complete unknown when there's plenty of safer choices to choose from?
It wouldn't be impossible but it sure will be a uphill battle.

Still better than pharmacy in terms of job outlook. Pharmacy is still more of an uphill battle

 

[Hels2007]

I've been thinking about pharmacy vs. other professions with oversupply...

• In some fields, there are clear delineations of what helps to make one a successful candidate. I.e. get into top 10-15 schools or be in the top 10% of your class or do a certain type of internship and you are assured of getting a decent first job in the field. There isn't such clarity for pharmacists. Of course, when interviewing candidates, it becomes very clear who the 'stars' are (during fellowship interviews, tends to agree that yep, these 4-5 people are the best and they will take their pick of the programs, and we all want them, but most of us will settle for second-bests, who are harder to identify) but it's like Supreme Court and pornography, 'I know it when I see it' and there aren't strict criteria. Students, who are used to syllabi telling them exactly what to do if they want the prize (such as a good grade) and not used to thinking for themselves or blazing their own paths struggle with the ambiguity.
• Pharmacists are biased by the 'good ole times' and the high loan burden to have salary expectations that are no longer realistic. Most fields have the 'start low, and then how high you can go is only dependent on you' salary curve, but graduating pharmacists don't want to start at $50-60K and build up to $100K in a few years.
• Pharmacy students in general are not used to the idea of having to compete. It's not that hard to get into pharmacy school, there is hardly any competition within pharmacy school, and for a long time - for most graduating PharmDs pretty much their entire lifetime - there was no need to compete for jobs. When everything always came to you easily, having to work very hard for something you feel is your due (as if anyone is owed a job!) is difficult and unpleasant. Compared to how cutthroat some fields are during school, pharmacists are not prepared to fight it out in the workplace.
• In most fields, there are undesirable 'basement' jobs like doc review or coding, which can provide a point of entry. In the pharmacy world, that was the retail, but now that's what's getting squeezed the worst... I don't know if that's a bad thing necessarily for someone seeking to grow and develop, as these can be 'dead end' jobs, but as something that absorbs a lot of graduates, that makes it more competitive for everyone else. Plus, unlike in other friends where 'basement' jobs paid a lot less than 'prestigious' jobs, retail actually was on the higher end of the pay scale.

 

[TheBlaah]

Still better than pharmacy in terms of job outlook. Pharmacy is still more of an uphill battle

In general for new grads/prospective students, yeah. But I was speaking to his specific situation where
1) He already has a job
2) He's starting from scratch and self-teaching coding.

So I wouldn't say it's better in his situation to make that transition.

 

[deleted562805]

In general for new grads/prospective students, yeah. But I was speaking to his specific situation where
1) He already has a job
2) He's starting from scratch and self-teaching coding.

So I wouldn't say it's better in his situation to make that transition.

Hedgehog32 does not have a pharmacy job. I don’t think so. He does not have a license yet. I think every job has an up hill battle, but pharmacy is worse than the rest.

 

[deleted562805]

I've been thinking about pharmacy vs. other professions with oversupply...

• In some fields, there are clear delineations of what helps to make one a successful candidate. I.e. get into top 10-15 schools or be in the top 10% of your class or do a certain type of internship and you are assured of getting a decent first job in the field. There isn't such clarity for pharmacists. Of course, when interviewing candidates, it becomes very clear who the 'stars' are (during fellowship interviews, tends to agree that yep, these 4-5 people are the best and they will take their pick of the programs, and we all want them, but most of us will settle for second-bests, who are harder to identify) but it's like Supreme Court and pornography, 'I know it when I see it' and there aren't strict criteria. Students, who are used to syllabi telling them exactly what to do if they want the prize (such as a good grade) and not used to thinking for themselves or blazing their own paths struggle with the ambiguity.
• Pharmacists are biased by the 'good ole times' and the high loan burden to have salary expectations that are no longer realistic. Most fields have the 'start low, and then how high you can go is only dependent on you' salary curve, but graduating pharmacists don't want to start at $50-60K and build up to $100K in a few years.
• Pharmacy students in general are not used to the idea of having to compete. It's not that hard to get into pharmacy school, there is hardly any competition within pharmacy school, and for a long time - for most graduating PharmDs pretty much their entire lifetime - there was no need to compete for jobs. When everything always came to you easily, having to work very hard for something you feel is your due (as if anyone is owed a job!) is difficult and unpleasant. Compared to how cutthroat some fields are during school, pharmacists are not prepared to fight it out in the workplace.
• In most fields, there are undesirable 'basement' jobs like doc review or coding, which can provide a point of entry. In the pharmacy world, that was the retail, but now that's what's getting squeezed the worst... I don't know if that's a bad thing necessarily for someone seeking to grow and develop, as these can be 'dead end' jobs, but as something that absorbs a lot of graduates, that makes it more competitive for everyone else. Plus, unlike in other friends where 'basement' jobs paid a lot less than 'prestigious' jobs, retail actually was on the higher end of the pay scale.

1. There is not much clarity for pharmacists because all schools even “established schools” are pumping out 15,000 graduates per year.
2. Of course new grads are going to expect a higher 100k salary with a 200 k debt. Who wants to study for eight years to earn 50 to 60k, when an engineer earn that much with less years of schooling. It is the professions problem for not regulating the number of schools, not the individual pharmacist’s fault. This was realistic in the past and could be realistic if the number of schools and residency programs shut down. However, too much profit and too much greed is involved so it will not happen.
3. Too much generalization with respect to competition. Every job in health care is competitive. CS is also competitive. But other health care jobs and CS have a better job outlook than pharmacy
4. That’s the past. Retail is going extinct.

 

[Hels2007]

Two posts in a row, two misses. Maybe the real reason pharmacy as a profession is in a dumpster is that it has too many people with single-track mind and limited reading comprehension.

 

[TheBlaah]

Hedgehog32 does not have a pharmacy job. I don’t think so. He does not have a license yet. I think every job has an up hill battle, but pharmacy is worse than the rest.

I was referring to DH1987, whom I had quoted in my post.

Besides that, hedgehog isn't self-teaching, nor does he have a job like you said.