"You won't be deployed"

[73BARMYPgsp]

I wanted to post this thread to any individual who is thinking about joining the military and their recruiter said to you "don't worry, they won't deploy you as a doctor/lawyer/whatever."

There is no such thing as a soldier that does not deploy.

As an individual soldier, you may from time to time, have the status of "non-deployable" however, this is by definition, a temporary status. Soldiers become non-deployable for a variety of reasons, the most common ones being medical or not having a family care plan. But rest assured, if you enter this status, your unit will work diligently to remedy whatever is causing you to be non-deployable (ie--fix the medical problem, or force you to make arrangements for the little ones at home). If the problem cannot be fixed (health problem cannot be corrected, can't find someone to take your kids while you are gone) they will begin the process of kicking you out--called "boarding" or "chaptering." Why not? What good is a soldier who does not fight wars? Would you hire a trash collector who is afraid of trash cans?

I felt compelled to write this because I am currently being used as an informal recruiter as I am almost done with HPSP and many of the students in my region who are in clin psych programs need answers that the recruiters just don't have. Many of them seem to think that they will be stateside for their entire career, based I assume on something someone told them.

If your recruiter tells you that you won't be deployed, they are lying.

Edit--Also, the status of non-deployable may not be on anyone in your chain of commands radar screen until a deplyoment for you or your unit is looming. That is when they usually get all excited and start sending you nasty emails and such. 2nd, non-deployable often (not always)means you are also "flagged." Flagged=no favorable actions. Favorable actions=getting to go that training or school you wanted or getting promoted.

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[IgD]

Thanks for being upfront and honest.

What is the military's stance on unlicensed psychologists? Are they still being deployed and utilized outside the MTFs?

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

Thanks for being upfront and honest.

What is the military's stance on unlicensed psychologists? Are they still being deployed and utilized outside the MTFs?

Negative. Policy changed this year. You cannot leave the MTF, be deployed, or start your payback until the newly implemented post doc fellowship year and license is complete.

 

[deleted176373]

Thanks for being upfront and honest.

What is the military's stance on unlicensed psychologists? Are they still being deployed and utilized outside the MTFs?

It depends on the branch of service but policies differ by branch currently, although I suspect that the Army model will be adopted elsewhere.

Non-Deployable is NOT always unfavorable. For instance, I am non-deployable... I am eligible for promotion and other good things, but I am also in a student status at USUHS.

If you are in a non-deployable position (e.g. an internship year) you are not being adversely affected, but you may not be paying back a commitment during this time either.

There are different reasons for being non-deployable... Some are less favorable than others. If you are non-deployable because the military wants you to be non-deployable (selection to Army War College for instance) things are good, however if you are non-deployable because you don't have a weapons qualification or licensure... that's BAD and you WILL feel the heat!

Mark

PS - and don't get the idea that the USAF doesn't deploy, even though it may be less often.

 

[IgD]

Negative. Policy changed this year. You cannot leave the MTF, be deployed, or start your payback until the newly implemented post doc fellowship year and license is complete.

Show me the doctrine. I want to forward it to my friend. She is an unlicensed psychologist at my command who got deployed in the past month.

 

[deleted176373]

Show me the doctrine. I want to forward it to my friend. She is an unlicensed psychologist at my command who got deployed in the past month.

Have her contact COL Crow, I believe he is the originating authority for the policy. I believe that this ONLY applies to interns that will be coming on to internship this year and therefore would not impact your friend, still COL Crow is an authority on the subject.

Mark

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

Have her contact COL Crow, I believe he is the originating authority for the policy. I believe that this ONLY applies to interns that will be coming on to internship this year and therefore would not impact your friend, still COL Crow is an authority on the subject.

Mark

That is correct. It only applies to current 4th years (next years interns) and beyond. It is not retroactive.

 

[Perrotfish]

I felt compelled to write this because I am currently being used as an informal recruiter as I am almost done with HPSP and many of the students in my region who are in clin psych programs need answers that the recruiters just don't have. Many of them seem to think that they will be stateside for their entire career, based I assume on something someone told them.

I'm not sure I would assume that. I've met a remarkable number of people who just seem to be under the impression that physicians are non-deployable, both HPSP hopefuls and also pretty much everyone who finds out I'm going to be joining ("well I guess it won't be too bad, they won't be sending you to war as a doctor"). It conntiually baffles me both that anyone could have this idea (wouldn't the doctors need to be near the injuries?) and also just how little research so many people put into a career decision as major as HPSP.

For the record, the only flat out lie I've heard from recruiters is that you're automatically allowed to compete for a civilian resideny. The funny thing is pretty much every HPSP student I know was told this. Is it possible someone is telling the recruiters this BS? It seems strange that they'd all fixate on the same lie.

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

Non-Deployable is NOT always unfavorable.

Hence my use of the word "often" instead of "always."🙂

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

I'm not sure I would assume that. I've met a remarkable number of people who just seem to be under the impression that physicians are non-deployable, both HPSP hopefuls and also pretty much everyone who finds out I'm going to be joining ("well I guess it won't be too bad, they won't be sending you to war as a doctor"). It conntiually baffles me both that anyone could have this idea (wouldn't the doctors need to be near the injuries?) and also just how little research so many people put into a career decision as major as HPSP.

For the record, the only flat out lie I've heard from recruiters is that you're automatically allowed to compete for a civilian resideny. The funny thing is pretty much every HPSP student I know was told this. Is it possible someone is telling the recruiters this BS? It seems strange that they'd all fixate on the same lie.

You're probably right about that. I hear that alot too. "They don't send psychologists to Iraq do they?"

They have psych casualties in Iraq.

 

[sethco]

For the record, the only flat out lie I've heard from recruiters is that you're automatically allowed to compete for a civilian resideny. The funny thing is pretty much every HPSP student I know was told this. Is it possible someone is telling the recruiters this BS? It seems strange that they'd all fixate on the same lie.

You have to admit, though, that you might not know that info also if it wasn't for this site. Unfortunately, this site is fairly new and I wish I had this site to get info while I was still in college

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

I'm not sure I would assume that. I've met a remarkable number of people who just seem to be under the impression that physicians are non-deployable, both HPSP hopefuls and also pretty much everyone who finds out I'm going to be joining ("well I guess it won't be too bad, they won't be sending you to war as a doctor"). It conntiually baffles me both that anyone could have this idea (wouldn't the doctors need to be near the injuries?) and also just how little research so many people put into a career decision as major as HPSP.

For the record, the only flat out lie I've heard from recruiters is that you're automatically allowed to compete for a civilian resideny. The funny thing is pretty much every HPSP student I know was told this. Is it possible someone is telling the recruiters this BS? It seems strange that they'd all fixate on the same lie.

I think the recruiters do not know anything about how the whole medical school/internship/residency thing works at all. Someone tells them that, but they might as well be telling them something about astrophysics for them to repeat. The HPSP is a product and they are salesmen. I could be a salesman for light emitting diodes if I presented the product with enthusiasm and a little info. It is a talking point.

 

[Perrotfish]

You have to admit, though, that you might not know that info also if it wasn't for this site. Unfortunately, this site is fairly new and I wish I had this site to get info while I was still in college

Oh, I agree completely, and I'm very grateful for this site. However this isn't a very difficult site to find. Actually if you google 'military HPSP' the first several links are to SDN. I just feel like if you haven't at least taken the time to Google the thing you're about to commit your life to you're in the group that hasn't done enough research. So far that group seems to include everyone else I know taking the scholarship, which is what boggles my mind.

I think the recruiters do not know anything about how the whole medical school/internship/residency thing works at all. Someone tells them that, but they might as well be telling them something about astrophysics for them to repeat. The HPSP is a product and they are salesmen. I could be a salesman for light emitting diodes if I presented the product with enthusiasm and a little info. It is a talking point.

I agree. What I meant is that they all have the same BS talking point, it makes me wonder if someone higher up is diliberately feeding them a false talking point.

 

[MaximusD]

I wanted to post this thread to any individual who is thinking about joining the military and their recruiter said to you "don't worry, they won't deploy you as a doctor/lawyer/whatever."

There is no such thing as a soldier that does not deploy.

As an individual soldier, you may from time to time, have the status of "non-deployable" however, this is by definition, a temporary status. Soldiers become non-deployable for a variety of reasons, the most common ones being medical or not having a family care plan. But rest assured, if you enter this status, your unit will work diligently to remedy whatever is causing you to be non-deployable (ie--fix the medical problem, or force you to make arrangements for the little ones at home). If the problem cannot be fixed (health problem cannot be corrected, can't find someone to take your kids while you are gone) they will begin the process of kicking you out--called "boarding" or "chaptering." Why not? What good is a soldier who does not fight wars? Would you hire a trash collector who is afraid of trash cans?

I felt compelled to write this because I am currently being used as an informal recruiter as I am almost done with HPSP and many of the students in my region who are in clin psych programs need answers that the recruiters just don't have. Many of them seem to think that they will be stateside for their entire career, based I assume on something someone told them.

If your recruiter tells you that you won't be deployed, they are lying.

Edit--Also, the status of non-deployable may not be on anyone in your chain of commands radar screen until a deplyoment for you or your unit is looming. That is when they usually get all excited and start sending you nasty emails and such. 2nd, non-deployable often (not always)means you are also "flagged." Flagged=no favorable actions. Favorable actions=getting to go that training or school you wanted or getting promoted.

I agree that it is obvious in the military that you will get deployed at least once during your 3/4-yr obligation. They paid to train you for a reason...

The military occupies, "peacemakes", and fights wars... period. If you join that entity, don't expect to be dissociated from that purpose. I was giving a pseudo-presentation to premeds interviewing for PCOM today, and one of them asked if they could be deployed. I just stared before responding... I don't understand how you could BELIEVE a recruiter who says you won't be deployed.

My dad was speaking with a COL in the Army who insisted I should reconsider USAF (there ARE reasons to consider Army... better, larger GME for example..) But this is what he said:

"He won't be deployed!" He assured my dad. "If he's deployed, it will likely be to Hawaii!"

Oh yeah...? Who are the physicians serving in Iraq right now then? Guess they appeared magically from the land of pixies and rainbows. Didn't make a mention that the standard Army deployment is significantly longer than the AF... but why would he? Recruit at all costs. grr.

 

[edmadison]

You're probably right about that. I hear that alot too. "They don't send psychologists to Iraq do they?"

They have psych casualties in Iraq.

LOL. We have FOUR at my FOB plus a psychiatrist, a social worker and a therapy dog!

Ed

 

[IgD]

That is correct. It only applies to current 4th years (next years interns) and beyond. It is not retroactive.

Is that what they told you or is there actually doctrine saying that?

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

Is that what they told you or is there actually doctrine saying that?

It's not a "doctrine." It is a Policy change memo that came out about 4 months ago. I have it in PDF format if you are really interested. I would have to email it to you.

 

[Homunculus]

LOL. We have FOUR at my FOB plus a psychiatrist, a social worker and a therapy dog!

Ed

damn. that's more than i have at my MEDDAC, lol.

--your friendly neighborhood 7-3-17 caveman

 

[Homunculus]

I wanted to post this thread to any individual who is thinking about joining the military and their recruiter said to you "don't worry, they won't deploy you as a doctor/lawyer/whatever."

There is no such thing as a soldier that does not deploy.

As an individual soldier, you may from time to time, have the status of "non-deployable" however, this is by definition, a temporary status. Soldiers become non-deployable for a variety of reasons, the most common ones being medical or not having a family care plan. But rest assured, if you enter this status, your unit will work diligently to remedy whatever is causing you to be non-deployable (ie--fix the medical problem, or force you to make arrangements for the little ones at home). If the problem cannot be fixed (health problem cannot be corrected, can't find someone to take your kids while you are gone) they will begin the process of kicking you out--called "boarding" or "chaptering." Why not? What good is a soldier who does not fight wars? Would you hire a trash collector who is afraid of trash cans?

I felt compelled to write this because I am currently being used as an informal recruiter as I am almost done with HPSP and many of the students in my region who are in clin psych programs need answers that the recruiters just don't have. Many of them seem to think that they will be stateside for their entire career, based I assume on something someone told them.

If your recruiter tells you that you won't be deployed, they are lying.

Edit--Also, the status of non-deployable may not be on anyone in your chain of commands radar screen until a deplyoment for you or your unit is looming. That is when they usually get all excited and start sending you nasty emails and such. 2nd, non-deployable often (not always)means you are also "flagged." Flagged=no favorable actions. Favorable actions=getting to go that training or school you wanted or getting promoted.

the "informal recruiter" phenomemon happened to me as well. we'd get potential recruits come through our MEDCEN to speak w/ the LTC's and COL's who for the most part were happy as larks (self selecting, since the people who didn't like it were gone). I was more than happy to talk to the recruitees in private along with other residents to give them our version of things. at least they'll be making a decision with all the info available.

--your friendly neighborhood recruitee informing caveman

 

[alpha62]

I had several M.D. in my OBC class that thought going into the army was going to solve all their practice/business/money headaches.

These were middle aged guys, some of 'em first generation Arabs and native speakers.

their recuriters told them they've never get deployed, they'd wear class Bs to the office every day and have it made. They were told because they were already B/C with years of exp. they were just too valuble to waste in the sandbox.

That was in the year 2000.

Anybody wanna guess where those poor bastards are probably at right now ?

I'd like to hear from any Vets that were promised they'd be treating the general's poodle instead of some warlords goat herd and inspecting meat and drinking water in SWA right now.

 

[fetch]

I'd like to hear from any Vets that were promised they'd be treating the general's poodle instead of some warlords goat herd and inspecting meat and drinking water in SWA right now.

Uh, we're never promised we aren't deployable inventory to begin with? Hell, we're not even classed as non-combatants.

No one needs to lie to us to get us to Commission without any signing bonus, retention pay, guaranteed SLRP, more than five years (or so) constructive credit going towards ADOR no matter if you were in private practice 10+ years before joining, professional/specialty pay tables that'd make you snark diet Coke onto your screens, touching patients...

...I could go on, if you'd like...

🙂

FTR, I'd take FORSCOM over the otherCOM any day. There's no such thing as being too far away from some Flagpoles. 😉

 

[DeAlighieri]

Wow, you'd have to be borderline ******ed to believe that you could join the military and be assured of not getting deployed. How hard is it to understand that you join the military to do military things, hopefully in the field of your choice? The best advice I've ever heard is that you only join military medicine if you'd join even though you already had the money for med school.

Of course, I'm talking before I've served in milmed. I'm a veteran, but I'm aware that milmed is its own beast. Truth is, I want to serve a little longer, do some military stuff, and do so with the full understanding that there will be a constant tension between being a doc and being an officer. And screw the money, that ain't why I'm doing it.

 

[tcp03]

I def. respect everyones point of view here, and appreciate all of the helpful knowledge provided by those who were kind enough to respond to this forum.

Now let's get past some generalizations...

Navy med is not Army med is not USAF med etc.

The navy only reached 54% of its recruiting goal...go there and you'll be deployed.

The army only reached around 74% of its Med recruitng goal...go there and you will be deployed.

The Air force reached 112% of its recruiting goal...go there and you MAY be deployed, but clearly they are overstaffed and rotations are not as long (2 months instead of three..typically) and only ONE Florida airforce national guard (I'm in Fl, you'd have to check other states for their stats) physician has ever been involuntarily deployed since the start of the Afghanistan and Iraq campaigns.

You are also MUCH more likely to be deployed if you enter in to a "critical wartime specialty"...AKA the type of docs that they NEED. if you join the military as a pediatric oncologist...expect to spend time in a hospital (possibly abroad but off the line)....join as EM, Gen surg, or truama..well then you're likely to be in a forward position. I only say this to help avoid generalizations about military med. It's not for everyone, but thousands of docs have done it and it can open opportunities for lots of people. Just do your research and as previously mentioned on this forum, don't lose sight of what the military does (fights, peace keeps, etc). Also, realize that there is a HUGE difference b/w an active duty physician and a national guard physician. (Air guard typically handles FEMA missions domestically or in South/central America). YOU CAN ALWAYS BE DEPLOYED..but some branches are much more likely to do so then others and certain specialties are more likely than others. do your homework before joining!

sorry for being longwinded...any feedback would be welcome

God Bless America

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

I def. respect everyones point of view here, and appreciate all of the helpful knowledge provided by those who were kind enough to respond to this forum.

Now let's get past some generalizations...

Navy med is not Army med is not USAF med etc.

The navy only reached 54% of its recruiting goal...go there and you'll be deployed.

The army only reached around 74% of its Med recruitng goal...go there and you will be deployed.

The Air force reached 112% of its recruiting goal...go there and you MAY be deployed, but clearly they are overstaffed and rotations are not as long (2 months instead of three..typically) and only ONE Florida airforce national guard (I'm in Fl, you'd have to check other states for their stats) physician has ever been involuntarily deployed since the start of the Afghanistan and Iraq campaigns.

You are also MUCH more likely to be deployed if you enter in to a "critical wartime specialty"...AKA the type of docs that they NEED. if you join the military as a pediatric oncologist...expect to spend time in a hospital (possibly abroad but off the line)....join as EM, Gen surg, or truama..well then you're likely to be in a forward position. I only say this to help avoid generalizations about military med. It's not for everyone, but thousands of docs have done it and it can open opportunities for lots of people. Just do your research and as previously mentioned on this forum, don't lose sight of what the military does (fights, peace keeps, etc). Also, realize that there is a HUGE difference b/w an active duty physician and a national guard physician. (Air guard typically handles FEMA missions domestically or in South/central America). YOU CAN ALWAYS BE DEPLOYED..but some branches are much more likely to do so then others and certain specialties are more likely than others. do your homework before joining!

sorry for being longwinded...any feedback would be welcome

God Bless America

Thanks for the input. I should mention however, that nothing in this post changes the main takeaway point of my original one. Namely--if someone tells you "oh THAT MOS/AOC doesn't go anywhere" giving you the idea that there are some jobs in the military that are not utilized down range they are full of crap. With the exception of some VERY special duty (like the Black Knights or being on an official sports team) EVERY MOS/AOC has a field mission, and you are therefore not "safe" from being deployed. And I am coming from the point of view of actually loving the military (And the Army specifically).

Edit--I was thinking more about this, and although I REALLY do appreciate your attempt to clarify things, I think what bothers me about this type of information is this--the only person who is going to sift through everything it contains is the one people like myself wish would not join in the first place. The type of person who is trying to figure out the metirc or formula for how to be in the military, receive all the benefits but when the time comes--get out of the hard part. A person who thinks they can figure out the angle on how to serve but not sacrifice.

 

[tcp03]

I couldn't agree more. I also thought about it after I wrote my post. I hope people didn't think I was ushering a pathway for them to earn the great things the military can offer without putting in the sacrifice that many soldier/airman/sailor/marine/coastguardsman have given their lives for.

I meant show that the branches are very different and the term "military medicine" is sometimes used as a generalization to encompass all of the branches. No one should join the military with the intent of "milking" the military of its resources hoping never to repay them or your country with service abroad.

Thank you for your feedback

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

I couldn't agree more. I also thought about it after I wrote my post. I hope people didn't think I was ushering a pathway for them to earn the great things the military can offer without putting in the sacrifice that many soldier/airman/sailor/marine/coastguardsman have given their lives for.

I meant show that the branches are very different and the term "military medicine" is sometimes used as a generalization to encompass all of the branches. No one should join the military with the intent of "milking" the military of its resources hoping never to repay them or your country with service abroad.

Thank you for your feedback

Good points all.

 

[alpha62]

Uh, we're never promised we aren't deployable inventory to begin with? Hell, we're not even classed as non-combatants.

No one needs to lie to us to get us to Commission without any signing bonus, retention pay, guaranteed SLRP, more than five years (or so) constructive credit going towards ADOR no matter if you were in private practice 10+ years before joining, professional/specialty pay tables that'd make you snark diet Coke onto your screens, touching patients...

Thanks for the info, hell, as a PA , they gave me constructive credit civ. years of lic. practice, for rank, IRR. I maxed out the pay tables for time in service.

thing about the military is, somebody has always got it worse than you.

Once again, the Fatman was right... "They can always hurt you more"

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Wow, you'd have to be borderline ******ed to believe that you could join the military and be assured of not getting deployed. How hard is it to understand that you join the military to do military things, hopefully in the field of your choice?

I don't think anyone was really promised they'd never deploy. In my case, there was an insinuation that I probably wouldn't be deployed, but if it were it would only be for 3 months out of my 4 years of AD. This was not only from a recruiter but also from a close friend who spent 26 years in the AF without deploying (not medicine BTW.) This was back in 99. Fast forward ten years and it now looks like I'll be for sure deployed for 9 months out of my 4 years, with a very real possibility of 12 months.

Obviously "maybe 3 months" and "for sure 9-12 months" are very different things, so we're just trying to get the word out to those making their HPSP/USUHS decision now. It may be "maybe 3 months", it may be "9-12 months", and who knows, 9 years from now when you come on active duty you may deploy twice for 18 months during your four years, then get stop lossed for one more 18 month rotation. You just never know.

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

I don't think anyone was really promised they'd never deploy. In my case, there was an insinuation that I probably wouldn't be deployed, but if it were it would only be for 3 months out of my 4 years of AD. This was not only from a recruiter but also from a close friend who spent 26 years in the AF without deploying (not medicine BTW.) This was back in 99. Fast forward ten years and it now looks like I'll be for sure deployed for 9 months out of my 4 years, with a very real possibility of 12 months.

Obviously "maybe 3 months" and "for sure 9-12 months" are very different things, so we're just trying to get the word out to those making their HPSP/USUHS decision now. It may be "maybe 3 months", it may be "9-12 months", and who knows, 9 years from now when you come on active duty you may deploy twice for 18 months during your four years, then get stop lossed for one more 18 month rotation. You just never know.

I think the overarching "take away" message I was trying to convey was this:

The US Military is an instrument of US foreign policy. Everyone with half a brain should know what that means. Who knows where we will be projecting our power by the time a current 1st year med student gets completley trained up and is deployable? Even the person who signed up on 10SEP01 has no excuse. The question is, if one does not want to be a cog in that machinery, they are not cut out for service.

 

[Army SFC]

First and foremost, I never usually reply to one sided negativeness regarding people's opinions, educated or not, about the military.....until now. I am an Army Recruiter, for the past 7 years now. Once the war started, I forwarded requests to deploy monthly, until, finally, the Army told me to stop, whereas my job was to recruit volunteers, and that is what all the great Americans wearing the uniform are, volunteers, with intergrity, honesty and professionalism. Not speaking for every recruiter for every branch, however, I can assure you, over the 100 men and women whom i recruited / helped in selecting a career in the Army, they received the God's honest truth about what could possibly happen to them. Hat's off anf thank you to DeAlighieri and TCP03 for their comments. If you think for a minute you will not deploy ANYWHERE if you join the military, well, you're nuts. It's like going to a baseball game and expecting to see a football game. If you allowed a recruiter to tell you that and you believed them, well, then you are a fool. When the war started, I'll admit, as a recruiter, I was scared to talk about Iraq at first, then it simply dawned on me, if the first hing I say to an applicant is they will go to Iraq, and they are still sitting at my desk, what is there to be afraid of. So, EVERYONE I speak to is told they, more than likely, will go overseas somewhere at some point in there career. I then give them an honest "here's what could happen" group of scenerios. Now realistically, if you are a med student, 4 years, and add an average of 4 years for residency, there's 8 years of time where you are not deployable, you have not finished your training yet. The Army does not utilize GMO's either. Now as for the comment of being a saleman and just repeating what I am told in an uneducated way.....some of what I do does include sales, HOWEVER, HPSP speaks for itself, I also HAVE educated myself on the tough road faced by every med student. I HAVE shadowed, not only physicians, but med students through variours years, through various classes. I developed a class that was reviewed and "blessed off" on by many med school educators and admission reps int he Philadelphia area on what to do to prepare for med school. I apologize for the list of what "I" have done, BUT DO NOT catorgorize EVERY recruiter the same way, especially if you allowed yoursefl to be lied to or tricked. Yes it is sad and a problem in the entire military there are recruiters who give in to the pressures of the job. If you haven't been a recruiter, don't talk about them like you have worn their boots; just like I do not talk about physicians like I have worn scrubs. If there is anyone who does want a fair shake and answers to their questions AND would like to speak to an Army physician, please feel free to contact me. Part of what I do for all of my clients is to put them in contact with an Army physician who can give their insight and experiences. Believe me, they will give you the good and bad, as I will. I go as far as coordinating trips to Walter Reed for potential HPSP applicants to shadow and tour the Med Center. I wish everyone here luck in pursuing your career in medicine.

 

[pgg]

Welcome to the forum.

The Army does not utilize GMO's either.

Are you sure about that?

 

[goodjuju]

Thanks Army SFC. I have to say that you give a really fair shake if that's how you approach recruits. My enlisted recruiter gave me a fair shake and the only things he didn't tell me where things I would not have understood anyhow. GO NAVY!

As far as GMOs are concerned, I can answer that. From what I have seen, only the Navy offers the GMO option. This may have changed but I doubt it. I call it an option because it gives the DOC a great opportunity to get his feet wet and gave some confidence in between school and residency. Also, in the Navy, other training becomes available to GMOs. I am actually looking forward to it.

I had a buddy back in Portsmouth that was in an Orthopedic Surgery residency and was deployed in the middle of that residency. I can't be sure but I don't think they delayed his grad. I remember him graduating and going to Okinawa. (cool for him!)

if the first hing I say to an applicant is they will go to Iraq, and they are still sitting at my desk, what is there to be afraid of.

This is what I look for in friends I talk with about military service. I was in Kuwait with A Doc that had no interest in serving his country, he just wanted to do his time and get out. He was a great physician but a horrible sailor and no one wanted to work with him. I would have rather he stayed home regardless of what he brought to the table.

Non Sibi Sed Patriae
Semper Fidelis

 

[Army SFC]

Hello PPG,

the Army in the past has utilized GMO's, we now use PA's for most of those duties. I consistantly in quire about the GMO tour, and as it was mentioned a while ago by someone else, my chain of command through AMEDD, repatedly tell me GMO duties are few and far between, however, you would have the option to volunteer for one if it were of interest, for example a humanitarian mission to a third world country needing your basic family practice type physician.

 

[edmadison]

Hello PPG,

the Army in the past has utilized GMO's, we now use PA's for most of those duties. I consistantly in quire about the GMO tour, and as it was mentioned a while ago by someone else, my chain of command through AMEDD, repatedly tell me GMO duties are few and far between, however, you would have the option to volunteer for one if it were of interest, for example a humanitarian mission to a third world country needing your basic family practice type physician.

The Army still uses GMOs, I am serving in Iraq with several of them and I know more back in the states. They become GMOs in 3 different ways: 1) They matched into an internship but not residency (i.e. no continuous contract). This is less common than it used to be because more contracts are straight through. 2) They voluntarily left residency following internship because they decided they wanted to switch fields or complete their obligation ASAP. 3) They were kicked out of their residency for academic or personality reasons.

I know at least 2 people that fit in each of these categories, so it does happen. Even so, you can still get deployed into a GMO billet. Ask the Army dermatologists how that's going for them. We have 2 on my COB that are in GMO billets. That's a really good use of their training. I'm a pediatrician and had 1 out of 36 months of residency training that dealt with adults, but I'm here anyway. That's the job of the Army. The plain truth is that the "generation" of doctors before us never deployed. There were six O-6s at my training program that had never deployed. It was a different time. So those recruiters pre-9/11 may not have been lying.

Ed

 

[pgg]

As far as GMOs are concerned, I can answer that. From what I have seen, only the Navy offers the GMO option. This may have changed but I doubt it. I call it an option because it gives the DOC a great opportunity to get his feet wet and gave some confidence in between school and residency. Also, in the Navy, other training becomes available to GMOs. I am actually looking forward to it.

I'm sure you mean well, but please don't speculate like this. Regardless of the merits of GMO tours, and the alleged utility of wetting one's feet vs benefit of straight-through training, they are not "optional" for the majority of Navy physicians. I enjoyed my GMO time with the Marines, and it enabled me to match to a residency where exactly 0% of applying interns are selected and instead MUST do GMO tours, but it's crazy to make the argument that PGY1s somehow need time with the line to gain confidence for their PGY2 years. It's worse than crazy; it's insulting to the 100s of competent Navy interns who, in about 17 days, will be leaving GME for 2-3 years of professionally stagnant time doing admin work and trivial sick call.

The Army and Air Force also utilize GMOs. Perhaps you missed the memo from the AF Surgeon General that mandated GMO tours for all HPSP grads who failed to match to a categorical program. I admit I was baiting our latest recruiter a little when I asked if he was sure about the Army GMO issue, because I was amused by the irony of the sentence immediately following his claim that the Army does not utilize GMOs:

Now as for the comment of being a saleman and just repeating what I am told in an uneducated way.

Clearly, a recruiter who comes into this forum and earnestly states that the Army doesn't utilize GMOs is either deliberately misrepresenting reality, or is in fact just a salesman repeating what he was told in an uneducated way. Given how quickly he backtracked on the issue, my money's on the usual SDN military recruiter mix of cheerful semi-informed mostly-truthful good-intentioned salesmanship. It's also disingenuous at best for him to make the bold and absurd statement that anyone who's interested in humanitarian work need only volunteer for that kind of billet ... 'cause there aren't any "humanitarian work" GMO billets in any branch of the armed forces.

There are many good reasons to join, and many positive things about serving, but it irritates me to see people, however well-meaning, speak with such authority and confidence on matters they're clueless about.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

...needing your basic family practice type physician.

A GMO is a far cry from a residency trained, board certified family physician. We're talking 80 hours x 96 weeks= 7680 additional hours of training. Do you think that is a significant amount? Which doc would you prefer takes care of you?

There are still plenty of GMOs. Just look at THIS YEAR'S match numbers well-detailed in a recent thread. The number was around 1/4, so quit repeating the line the army is feeding you. You want the truth? Hang around here for a 3 or 4 days, which is about 2 more days than the last couple of recruiters that have wandered through here have lasted.

HPSP is a bad deal for a typical med student's career, finances, and happiness. There are a select few for whom it works out well, but they are few and far between. If you think military medicine is great, why is retention so low? Nearly every other field in the military has better retention than physicians...what does that tell you? It tells you the job isn't very desirable. Do you share retention numbers with your potential recruits? Do you share the fact that in several very popular fields among military student physicians the military match is MUCH more competitive than the civilian match? Do you share the fact that despite paying for 4 years of med school, the typical specialist comes out financially behind taking the HPSP scholarship? How about the fact that this "scholarship" isn't competitive at all, and in fact you cannot give them away?

There are some great things about being in the military, but disguising the truth from recruits by not giving them the details that WILL BE very important to them in a few years is dishonest and only leads to resentment. You say don't paint all recruiters with the same brush, but here you are, AFTER 7 YEARS of recruiting, still repeating the same old lies/untruths/errors (no GMO tours). You're either ignorant or dishonest. If ignorant, shame on you and the military. If dishonest, shame on you.

BTW, while few like deployments, we all knew there was a possibility we could be deployed and shot at, so no big deal there. We also knew the pay would be less than the civilian world, so hey, can't complain too much about that. The big deal is the bureaucracy we end up dealing with, the military match, the poor quality of training in numerous specialties due to lack of patient acuity, the lack of personnel and IT support, and the inability to practice the specialty we trained for. THAT'S a big deal, and this is the only place I know of where HPSP applicants are told about that. If they know about it going in, fine, but too few of them know about it, and invariably, those I tell about it don't join.

 

[Homunculus]

If you allowed a recruiter to tell you that and you believed them, well, then you are a fool.

it's sad that this is considered "status quo" for military recruiters. lying should never be tolerated, and it should never be accepted as a routine part of the job. one doesn't "allow" a recruiter to lie to them. they do it all on their own.

my chain of command through AMEDD, repatedly tell me GMO duties are few and far between, however, you would have the option to volunteer for one if it were of interest, for example a humanitarian mission to a third world country needing your basic family practice type physician.

i call BS on this, too. name me one billet i can volunteer for to do this. pediatricians all over the army (ask edmadison) would jump at the chance to do *exactly* this-- use our trained for skill set in an envirnment where it makes an impact. but instead we get sent into GMO billets and see patients we haven't seen in three years. brilliant.

i appreciate your candor, but we've yet to have a recuriter come here and stay-- usually once the very legitimate issues with milmed rear their ugly head, the recruiters head for the hills. hopefully you will remain active-- having someone actively in the system as a recruiter to bounce issues/ideas off of is beneficial to everyone.

--your friendly neighborhood humanitarian mission seeking caveman

 

[gastrodoc]

The problem is definitions. GMO tour to us= deployed as a 62B (general medical officer) usually with a BN or smaller unit. Anyone can fill these billets. For those of us who've completed a residency and/or fellowship, this means you're deploying as a GMO, not as a whatever you trained in. Which sucks when it's for 12-17 months. Then you come home and are expected to start doing what you used to do, at the same level you used to do it, without any retraining. Good times. Good times.

 

[BigNavyPedsGuy]

If you allowed a recruiter to tell you that and you believed them, well, then you are a fool. . . . . .BUT DO NOT catorgorize EVERY recruiter the same way, especially if you allowed yoursefl to be lied to or tricked.

Allowed yourself to be lied too??? You're a fool for believing someone representing the United States Government that is appointed as a source of knowledge on a subject??

That's just ridiculous!! You may be an honest recruiter (I'm one of the few that believes they're out there), but how can you expect someone to "not allow" a recruiter to lie to him? That notion/justification is insulting!!

Ridiculous!!

 

[7by11thenout]

PS - and don't get the idea that the USAF doesn't deploy, even though it may be less often.[/QUOTE]


In my specialty (anesthesia) the USAF deploys as much as the Army- I know many peole on their 3rd deployment in 4 yrs and we are taking on more Army deployments daily. It was not always that way and right after 9/11 the Army went more and for longer, but they decimated their troops and now the powers that be from the USAF say "yes" to any deployment the Army offers to the USAF. Especially the 6-14mo live with the locals (Iraqi or Afghan) teach them how to be MD - type deployments.

just FYI.

 

[ymd2b]

New here and trying to understand this better. As a military physician you will get deployed. Anyone in any specialty can be/will be deployed,
when this happens you are filling a GMO position. This is bad because you are not really practicing what you were trained for? Is that the main issue? I mean the complaints here is not about being deployed it what you do during that time right? Is this how it works or are there different kinds of deployments?
After reading quite a bit I noticed that most of the info here is posted by non army I was wondering is someone could shed some light on what it is like to be in family medicine or physchiatry in the Army. I have read that signing up is good for FM but not other specialties why? I have read about the low case load for surgeons so I get that. So I guess I am asking what is the preferred army residency in terms of how the system works? hope this is in the right place?

 

[TheGoose]

New here and trying to understand this better. As a military physician you will get deployed. Anyone in any specialty can be/will be deployed,
when this happens you are filling a GMO position. This is bad because you are not really practicing what you were trained for? Is that the main issue? I mean the complaints here is not about being deployed it what you do during that time right? Is this how it works or are there different kinds of deployments?
After reading quite a bit I noticed that most of the info here is posted by non army I was wondering is someone could shed some light on what it is like to be in family medicine or physchiatry in the Army. I have read that signing up is good for FM but not other specialties why? I have read about the low case load for surgeons so I get that. So I guess I am asking what is the preferred army residency in terms of how the system works? hope this is in the right place?

short answer, no.
Long answer: In theory, you can be assigned to a GMO billet in between internship and residency. During this time you will be deployed at some point and serve as a GMO - an untrained physician. If you finish your residency (cant be deployed during residency) and become a specialist you would then be deployed as Dr. Gas vs. Dr. GMO. The capacity that Dr. Gas would be used might still not compare to stateside cases, but nonetheless, you are used as an anesthesiologist. In some cases, due to the needs of the Armed Services, you might be deployed as something you arent really qualified to do, or as something that you are overqualified to do. Example 1 would be an OB/GYN deployed as a General Surgeon and helping in a trauma unit and Example 2 would be pediatrician/FP doc being used as an operational GMO.

Army has a very low chance of a GMO billet between internship and residency as opposed to the other branches.

 

[179466]

Actually, FP's in the Army are eminently deployable as GMO's. The Army loves using them as Battalion/Flight Surgeons.

Last year, close to 75-80% of EM graduates in the Army were used as GMO's. That is, a BC EM doc filling a BS/FS or brigade surgeon billet. That is, a complete waste of skills and training.

And as for the low chance of GMO...better be careful if you're applying to anything competitive. No deferments anymore.

I'm fine with the GMO concept. I think it's better to fill these slots with a somewhat undertrained doc who can learn on the fly than waste a BC person whose substantial skills and training will atrophy. There probably will be the odd situation where you're out of your league, but what is the sense of using an EM doc to fill out flight physicals and do ops briefings?

GB

 

[ymd2b]

short answer, no.
Long answer: In theory, you can be assigned to a GMO billet in between internship and residency. During this time you will be deployed at some point and serve as a GMO - an untrained physician. If you finish your residency (cant be deployed during residency) and become a specialist you would then be deployed as Dr. Gas vs. Dr. GMO. The capacity that Dr. Gas would be used might still not compare to stateside cases, but nonetheless, you are used as an anesthesiologist. In some cases, due to the needs of the Armed Services, you might be deployed as something you arent really qualified to do, or as something that you are overqualified to do. Example 1 would be an OB/GYN deployed as a General Surgeon and helping in a trauma unit and Example 2 would be pediatrician/FP doc being used as an operational GMO.

Army has a very low chance of a GMO billet between internship and residency as opposed to the other branches.

Thanks, Well this doesn't sound too bad though I guess it is on a case by case basis. Let's say you end up doing a GMO before residency what sorts of things will you do? Does it make it difficult to start residency after? Would this "gap" look bad when applying to civilian residencies?

 

[ymd2b]

Actually, FP's in the Army are eminently deployable as GMO's. The Army loves using them as Battalion/Flight Surgeons.

Last year, close to 75-80% of EM graduates in the Army were used as GMO's. That is, a BC EM doc filling a BS/FS or brigade surgeon billet. That is, a complete waste of skills and training.

And as for the low chance of GMO...better be careful if you're applying to anything competitive. No deferments anymore.

I'm fine with the GMO concept. I think it's better to fill these slots with a somewhat undertrained doc who can learn on the fly than waste a BC person whose substantial skills and training will atrophy. There probably will be the odd situation where you're out of your league, but what is the sense of using an EM doc to fill out flight physicals and do ops briefings?

GB

Thanks, So what do batallion Flight Surgeons do? It isn't what it sounds like as far as I can tell right?

 

[TheGoose]

Thanks, Well this doesn't sound too bad though I guess it is on a case by case basis. Let's say you end up doing a GMO before residency what sorts of things will you do? Does it make it difficult to start residency after? Would this "gap" look bad when applying to civilian residencies?

i think as a GMO you generally do physicals, sick call, general clinic work.....

in terms of a military residency, GMO is sometimes required especially for Navy. In terms of applying for civilian residencies, (assuming you did your GMO tours and left the military), i can only imagine it would look good. Good leadership and 4 years working as an operational physician cant be a bad thing...you'll just be older

 

[TheGoose]

Thanks, So what do batallion Flight Surgeons do? It isn't what it sounds like as far as I can tell right?

they dont do surgery if thats what youre hinting at. Flight surgeons are just GMOs attached to a flight group (keep the pilots in tip-top shape....and you also get flying time (required 6 month flight training for navy). As for Battalion surgeon's i think its just the name for GMOs when attached to an infantry group (marines specifically?)

 

[ymd2b]

I guess the titles are used to make it sound more adventurous. So could possibly learn to fly huh? Even in the Army?


How long are the deployments?

 

[pgg]

I think it's better to fill these slots with a somewhat undertrained doc who can learn on the fly than waste a BC person whose substantial skills and training will atrophy.

The flip side to this is that the military wastes 2-3 years of the ADSO it owns. By spending that payback time on a GMO vs a BC physician, the overall population of physicians in the military is shifted further away from fully trained. This is not advantageous to any party (patient, physician, or the line).

Simple example: USUHS graduate finishes internship and owes 7 years.

• Option 1: 3 year GMO tour, anesthesiology residency, 4 year payback. Navy gets 4 years of service from an anesthesiologist and 3 years of service from a glorified intern.
• Option 2: No GMO tour, anesthesiology residency, 7 year payback. Navy gets 7 years of service from an anesthesiologist.

This idea that the GMO system benefits the military is a myth. It's a waste of the HUGE investment the military made in footing the bill for medical school.

(The waste isn't quite as bad for HPSP grads, but only because of the backdoor ADSO extension GMO tours impose upon those who return to military GME.)

 

[sethco]

The flip side to this is that the military wastes 2-3 years of the ADSO it owns. By spending that payback time on a GMO vs a BC physician, the overall population of physicians in the military is shifted further away from fully trained. This is not advantageous to any party (patient, physician, or the line).

Simple example: USUHS graduate finishes internship and owes 7 years.

• Option 1: 3 year GMO tour, anesthesiology residency, 4 year payback. Navy gets 4 years of service from an anesthesiologist and 3 years of service from a glorified intern.
• Option 2: No GMO tour, anesthesiology residency, 7 year payback. Navy gets 7 years of service from an anesthesiologist.

This idea that the GMO system benefits the military is a myth. It's a waste of the HUGE investment the military made in footing the bill for medical school.

(The waste isn't quite as bad for HPSP grads, but only because of the backdoor ADSO extension GMO tours impose upon those who return to military GME.)

Actually, I disagree with this (At least from the military's standpoint).

Let's look at your garden variety 4 year HPSP student that becomes a GMO

Option 1: Do 2-4 years of a GMO tour. Then go into a 3 year Anesthesia residency. Owe 3 years payback if a military residency is done. All together, they got a physician for 8-10 years of active duty service

Option 2: Do your 4 year GMO tour and then egress.

The military is banking that you don't choose Option 2. If you choose Option 1, you are basically accruing a brand new ADSO after already completing your original one that you had from HPSP. Compare this to someone who gets a civilian deferment right out of med school:

Internship, 3 year Anesthesia residency. Come in and serve your 4 year ADSO and then egress. The military only gets 4 years of active duty service as a physician.

On second thought, why would they give ANYBODY a civilian deferment?

Then again, if they didn't then I could see nearly everybody just doing their GMO tour and then leaving to pursue a civilain residency, free of any military commitment (except IRR)